What If...? (Marvel, 2021)

Avengers, Batman, Superman, etc Discussion about comic mainstream movies and TV shows.
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shevek
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Animated adaptation of the Marvel comic book series, which was basically its version of the Twilight Zone.

In this TV show, like in the comic, the Rod Serling-style host is The Watcher, who observes but never interferes.
The Watcher is voiced by actor Jeffrey Wright, who will also portray Commissioner Gordon in the upcoming Pattinson Batman movie.
Spoiler
At least in this first episode, which proposes that Peggy Carter becomes Captain America (or more accurately, Captain Britain)
instead of Steve Rogers, there is a ton of action. Most of it involves Peggy kicking the living shit out of hordes of Nazis and Hydras
while not being in danger in the least the entire time - there is essentially no peril in this movie, even to the extent that Peggy forcefully pushes against a monster with dozens of tentacles, yet never gets wrapped up in any of those tentacles.

Peggy's level of power also seems several times stronger than the normal Earth-656 Captain America - she can literally leap tall buildings, turn over 60-ton tanks with one hand, and leap from airplane to airplane in the middle of the sky. Has Captain America been shown in the comics or movies doing these feats which are really more akin to those of Superman? Maybe some? Correct me if I'm wrong about Peggy Carter being overpowered for the sake of the story.

The other thing about Peggy Carter is that she is essentially a man once she gets amped up by the super-soldier serum. Gone is the shapely and curvaceous Peggy Carter we've seen in the comics or even wearing a Captain America-styled uniform as recently as 2018.

Now (much like the recent She-Hulk, and sometimes like Carol Danvers, depending on the artist), Peggy is a woman's head attached to a barrel-chested man's body with bulked-up muscles. She still has the desires of a woman, of course, but she inexplicably falls for the still very skinny Steve Rogers even though there are much more manly members of the Howling Commandos, let alone obvious heartthrob Bucky Barnes.

Anyway, it's an action-packed story, and you'll be dazzled by the constantly fast-moving images and explosions, and in that way, the cartoon is a technical success. But it also accomplishes the same thing that Masters of the Universe: Revelation does (see a pattern in the media, folks?) which is to normalize the heroic status of women with a considerably masculine appearance and demeanor. Rather than taking almost any time to celebrate the strengths of femininity (and there are many, obviously) it annihilates that femininity in pursuit of a bulked-up, forceful, take-charge masculine ideal that everyone should strive for.
There is an overall mission of de-feminization across the board in the big entertainment companies, especially at Marvel.

Don't think so? Watch as they shoehorn in a mention of Hedy Lamarr (who is nowhere in the episode) just to drive the point home.
Because Hedy Lamarr invented wi-fi, right? (No, she really didn't. The first wi-fi network wasn't set up until 1971).

Female bodies have received the super-serum before in Marvel Comics - notably the Nazi supervillainess Warrior Woman.
Her body was not changed from a woman's to a man's - she just became super-strong (and had an awesome black leather outfit, btw). But Peggy's body had her shoulders massively broadened into the "inverted triangle" of a man's body.

Feel free to disagree if you saw things differently when watching What If..? Episode 1. Just be civilized about it, please.

My personal prediction is that we're going to witness a lot of the same "subversion of expectations" in most of these What If? episodes.

How Warrior Woman and Black Cat looked after being dosed with the Super Soldier Serum.
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black cat on the serum.jpg
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How a feminine Peggy Carter on the Super Solider Serum would actually look. Once again, cosplayers do it better.
feminine peggy carter.jpg
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Last edited by shevek 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Hedy Lamar co-invented a method of frequency hopping that was used in a legacy version of Wi-Fi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr

They used the idea of an actress/inventor in Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. as a Hydra villainess.

I could see Peggy Carter as a more effective super hero than Rogers just because she had training in both combat and intelligence The superior strength just would be for fun by making her more like Wonder Woman.
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Actually Peggy's transformation seems more real given what it did to Steve. Yes it would hulk you out. What's not consistent is the super soldier serum in the current media like in Falcon and Winter soldier where nobody gets bigger.

ALSO the thing they leave out as was explained in Captain America is the formula ENHANCES the qualities you have. So that's why red skull ends up hideous. Bucky got a lighter version of the serum. So yeah I guess I could see Peggy becoming MORE feminine.

But I do agree with you Shevek that there is some bias against very feminine women who appeal to the male gaze. But I'm not going to pull that old shoe out and chew on it again.

Let DC and Marvel do this. Let them burn their house down. I'm hoping they replace Peggy with a trans woman. By all means do so.
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I thought it was a fine little one-off. The animation was excellent and the concept was fun. Enjoyed little easter eggs like the mention of Hedy Lamarr, who I'm guessing is involved with some of the super-science of this universe given her IRL history with the frequency-hopping signal system. The final battle was just okay...
Spoiler
... a little weird that the final act involved Carter just shoving an alien kraken back into its dimension like in a game of rugby, and I thought they might have come up with a better name for Steve Rogers' powered armor than the "Hydra Stomper."
On the whole, I'm looking forward to more of these.
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
Actually Peggy's transformation seems more real given what it did to Steve. Yes it would hulk you out. What's not consistent is the super soldier serum in the current media like in Falcon and Winter soldier where nobody gets bigger.
No no, those ones are specifically stated in the show to be different. They aren't the same serum, some guy made his own version of the serum he 'says' is superior specifically because it DOESN'T Hulk you out.... I mean I'm sure it's mostly just a dumb explanation to save on budget of trying to hulk all your actors out... which IS a little bit of an expense not just cause you kind of need to provide budget for it... but also because you gotta somehow encourage the actors to DO it... which not every actor is willing, anyway it IS explained in the show and not just a plot hole with no elaboration.
NotUv2 wrote:
2 years ago
I thought it was a fine little one-off. The animation was excellent and the concept was fun. Enjoyed little easter eggs like the mention of Hedy Lamarr, who I'm guessing is involved with some of the super-science of this universe given her IRL history with the frequency-hopping signal system. The final battle was just okay...
Spoiler
... a little weird that the final act involved Carter just shoving an alien kraken back into its dimension like in a game of rugby, and I thought they might have come up with a better name for Steve Rogers' powered armor than the "Hydra Stomper."
On the whole, I'm looking forward to more of these.
Spoiler
I'm pretty sure that was Hive.
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It was pointed out to me by a friend that in this episode, Peggy Carter was injected with THREE times the amount of serum that
Steve Rogers would have gotten in 616. So, probably her extreme strength level could be explained that way. It's a bit less clear, however, why three times as much serum would cause her to bulk up to manlike proportions.

As for Hedy Lamarr, my comment was based on the fallacy that is often spread about her - that she "invented wi-fi".
I'm well aware that she worked on frequency-hopping. But the random mention of her in the episode had no real purpose
because it didn't go anywhere.

I'm glad people enjoyed the episode to the extent that they did. We'll see what the next one brings....
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Just watched the first episode. Really enjoyed it. Looking forward to more. :ss:
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shevek wrote:
2 years ago

As for Hedy Lamarr, my comment was based on the fallacy that is often spread about her - that she "invented wi-fi".
I'm well aware that she worked on frequency-hopping. But the random mention of her in the episode had no real purpose
because it didn't go anywhere.
Fun facts:

"In collaboration with composer George Antheil, Hedy Lamarr patented a “Secret Communication System” designed to keep Nazis from intercepting Allied transmissions during World War II." That technology drove Qualcomm's success for a good decade or more. Their chips helped cell phones work for years and years.
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Femina wrote:
2 years ago
Spoiler
I'm pretty sure that was Hive.
I don't think so. From snippets that we've seen in previews my guess is it's going to be
Spoiler
the big Cthulhu monster from the Cancer-verse.
That could easily tie into the Marvel zombies.
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DrDominator9 wrote:
2 years ago
shevek wrote:
2 years ago
As for Hedy Lamarr, my comment was based on the fallacy that is often spread about her - that she "invented wi-fi".
I'm well aware that she worked on frequency-hopping. But the random mention of her in the episode had no real purpose
because it didn't go anywhere.
Fun facts:
"In collaboration with composer George Antheil, Hedy Lamarr patented a “Secret Communication System” designed to keep Nazis from intercepting Allied transmissions during World War II."
As I said, I am aware of this. It's not wi-fi. It's a method to avoid signal detection. Many information scrambling techniques like this were tried during World War II, including the Navajo Code Talkers. The application to wireless transmission didn't happen for another 30 years. And like it says above, she invented it together with Antheil (and yes, I know who he is, I'm familiar with lots of 20th Century avantgarde composers). So they rejected *his* invention as well as hers.

It's not the "facts" I'm disputing - I know the facts as you presented them already. Rather, it's the use of these facts to randomly virtue signal, by artificially injecting Lamarr's name into that episode for progressive points. There was no mention of wireless transmission in that episode, so it's not relevant, unless the writer just wants to namedrop. They might as well have just said "I learned how to be athletic from Babe Didrikson Zaharias". It's just as irrelevant.

And the same people who do this namedropping? Do you think they give a shit about, say, a monumental female pioneer in the arts and electronics such as Delia Derbyshire? (who wrote the Doctor Who theme, all by herself). No they don't. She is relegated to the hipster margins, where they drop her name in record stores to seem cool.

Don't be seduced by the shallowness of namedropping.
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shevek wrote:
2 years ago
Rather, it's the use of these facts to randomly virtue signal (etc)
That you react to the simple mention (and/or the most basic discussion) in this incredibly specific and abstruse way probably says a lot more about your "random" "signaling" purposes than those of the writers or anyone else here. (Delia Derbyshire was between three and eight years old during this What If's timespan, for instance. That you're trying to bring her up to accuse someone else of namedropping isn't making the point you seem to think it's making.)
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shevek wrote:
2 years ago
DrDominator9 wrote:
2 years ago
shevek wrote:
2 years ago
As for Hedy Lamarr, my comment was based on the fallacy that is often spread about her - that she "invented wi-fi".
I'm well aware that she worked on frequency-hopping. But the random mention of her in the episode had no real purpose
because it didn't go anywhere.
Fun facts:
"In collaboration with composer George Antheil, Hedy Lamarr patented a “Secret Communication System” designed to keep Nazis from intercepting Allied transmissions during World War II."
As I said, I am aware of this. It's not wi-fi. It's a method to avoid signal detection. Many information scrambling techniques like this were tried during World War II, including the Navajo Code Talkers. The application to wireless transmission didn't happen for another 30 years. And like it says above, she invented it together with Antheil (and yes, I know who he is, I'm familiar with lots of 20th Century avantgarde composers). So they rejected *his* invention as well as hers.

It's not the "facts" I'm disputing - I know the facts as you presented them already. Rather, it's the use of these facts to randomly virtue signal, by artificially injecting Lamarr's name into that episode for progressive points. There was no mention of wireless transmission in that episode, so it's not relevant, unless the writer just wants to namedrop. They might as well have just said "I learned how to be athletic from Babe Didrikson Zaharias". It's just as irrelevant.

And the same people who do this namedropping? Do you think they give a shit about, say, a monumental female pioneer in the arts and electronics such as Delia Derbyshire? (who wrote the Doctor Who theme, all by herself). No they don't. She is relegated to the hipster margins, where they drop her name in record stores to seem cool.

Don't be seduced by the shallowness of namedropping.
Honestly, I don't think name dropping is all that bad. In fact I tend to enjoy it. Gives an enjoyable jolt to fiction, to incorporate historical figures in it as long as it doesn't bend the facts too much.

You seem a bit overwrought about it which isn't like you.
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shevek wrote:
2 years ago
DrDominator9 wrote:
2 years ago
shevek wrote:
2 years ago
As for Hedy Lamarr, my comment was based on the fallacy that is often spread about her - that she "invented wi-fi".
I'm well aware that she worked on frequency-hopping. But the random mention of her in the episode had no real purpose
because it didn't go anywhere.
Fun facts:
"In collaboration with composer George Antheil, Hedy Lamarr patented a “Secret Communication System” designed to keep Nazis from intercepting Allied transmissions during World War II."
As I said, I am aware of this. It's not wi-fi. It's a method to avoid signal detection. Many information scrambling techniques like this were tried during World War II, including the Navajo Code Talkers. The application to wireless transmission didn't happen for another 30 years. And like it says above, she invented it together with Antheil (and yes, I know who he is, I'm familiar with lots of 20th Century avantgarde composers). So they rejected *his* invention as well as hers.

It's not the "facts" I'm disputing - I know the facts as you presented them already. Rather, it's the use of these facts to randomly virtue signal, by artificially injecting Lamarr's name into that episode for progressive points. There was no mention of wireless transmission in that episode, so it's not relevant, unless the writer just wants to namedrop. They might as well have just said "I learned how to be athletic from Babe Didrikson Zaharias". It's just as irrelevant.

And the same people who do this namedropping? Do you think they give a shit about, say, a monumental female pioneer in the arts and electronics such as Delia Derbyshire? (who wrote the Doctor Who theme, all by herself). No they don't. She is relegated to the hipster margins, where they drop her name in record stores to seem cool.

Don't be seduced by the shallowness of namedropping.
---
name-drop
/ˈnāmˌdräp/
verb
casually mention (the name of a famous person one knows or claims to know) in order to impress others.
"the manager was name-dropping all of the celebrities who had dined at the tables right next to us"
---

Like when you attempt namedrops all the time (tho names most people have never heard of) in your hburgh posts!

---
Captain Carter:
Don't tell me the american playboy needs help pushing buttons!

Howard Stark:
(while pressing buttons, moving lever or whatever you call that thing)
Hedy Lamarr and I spent a weekend together
but she wasn't teaching me german!
---

This is not namedropping. Howard Stark is not namedropping, he's not trying to impress Captain Carter with a namedrop! He's acknowledging the 'american playboy' remark. He spent a weekend with a hot, famous hollywood actress of his era at some point in his life.

The writer isn't namedropping. She's not trying to impress anyone with a namedrop!

The line is fine. It's not random, it's not virtue signaling. The line does not say Hedy invented anything, tho It's likely a wink to people who might know that Hedy was not just a famous hollywood actress during the time, but that she was also an inventor like Howard. To people who don't know, they'll miss the wink, but probably know Hedy Lamarr was an beautiful actress that Howard Stark would likely date. Line works either way. And is so quick and minor compared to what's going on in the episode, it really just reveals how you seem to have to nitpick every little picayune nothing and make a mountain out of it.
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NotUv2 wrote:
2 years ago
shevek wrote:
2 years ago
Rather, it's the use of these facts to randomly virtue signal (etc)
(Delia Derbyshire was between three and eight years old during this What If's timespan, for instance. That you're trying to bring her up to accuse someone else of namedropping isn't making the point you seem to think it's making.)
Derbyshire was the first underexposed female innovator, associated with science-fiction/fantasy, that I could think of, off the top of my head, although there are many more. The fact that her name could be dropped in a *Silver Age* adventure (but it never has been) rather than the *Golden Age* era in which the Peggy Carter What If? story takes place doesn't make the point invalid.

Scribbler: Howard Stark could have namedropped Rita Hayworth, Betty Grable or Lana Turner, or any number of starlets who would appear on pinups in U.S. serviceman's lockers during the war, etc. The choice of Hedy Lamarr was deliberate by the writers for the reasons you described.

Please note that I would have no problem with Hedy Lamarr actually appearing in the episode. A super-hot actress who is also an inventing genius (and a nice Jewish girl, at that, which is an affront to the Nazis) would be a great character in a WWII animated spy-action episode. But again, they didn't bother to flesh out the situation. The virtue signal was the only thing that mattered.

So call me picayune all you want, but you know I'm right.
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shevek wrote:
2 years ago
The virtue signal was the only thing that mattered.
Known to saner people as a "reference" or even an "Easter egg." She absolutely can't even be referenced if she's not a hottie explicitly seen in the episode or there must be some bizarre conspiracy at work? Again, you're revealing your "signaling" agenda with this weird shit, not the writers'.
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shevek wrote:
2 years ago
Howard Stark could have namedropped Rita Hayworth, Betty Grable or Lana Turner, or any number of starlets who would appear on pinups in U.S. serviceman's lockers during the war, etc. The choice of Hedy Lamarr was deliberate by the writers for the reasons you described.
Rita Hayworth, Betty Grable, and Lana Turner knew German?

He mentioned Hedy Lamarr as he was struggling to figure out a machine labeled in German.

Take the blinders off, shevek.
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Imagineer wrote:
2 years ago
He mentioned Hedy Lamarr as he was struggling to figure out a machine labeled in German.
Which means what? That Lamarr not only taught him science, but also taught him German?

This just gets better and better, doesn't it? Howard Stark, a wealthy genius industrialist who built his own fortune from the ground up, can't do anything without the help of his erstwhile girlfriend?

NotUV2 is only somewhat correct. The mention of Hedy Lamarr is not an "Easter Egg". An Easter Egg is when an obscure in-universe reference is planted for the viewer to find. Hedy Lamarr is not "in-universe"..she is a historical figure. So yes, NotUV2, it is, in fact, a "historical reference." But it's the exact historical reference needed to virtue signal at that moment.

I mean, come on - it's a entire episode about a super-strong woman whose body looks like a man (the classic 'inverted triangle' shape). And then somehow you think there *aren't* going to be additional smaller virtue-signaling references to accompany that larger "she don't need no man, because she IS a man" theme? In addition to that, Stark is the recipient of various putdowns from Peggy in the episode. It seems as if our pathetic hapless genius millionaire just can't do anything right!

Talk about putting blinders on, Imagineer - this is what Phase 4 is all about. Marvel Comics has been like this for the past five years, and now their film productions have caught up.
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shevek wrote:
2 years ago
This just gets better and better, doesn't it? Howard Stark, a wealthy genius industrialist who built his own fortune from the ground up, can't do anything without the help of his erstwhile girlfriend?
That whole read is bizarrely paranoid and implied by nothing in the show or that anyone here has said. It's weird as hell how much the mere mention of one female name seems to threaten you. "Overwrought" was exactly the right word for it.
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shevek wrote:
2 years ago
Imagineer wrote:
2 years ago
He mentioned Hedy Lamarr as he was struggling to figure out a machine labeled in German.
Which means what? That Lamarr not only taught him science, but also taught him German?
What are you talking about? He specifically says "Hedy Lamarr and I spent a weekend together but she wasn't teaching me german!" So you lead off your reply to Imagineer by being completely wrong as the intro sentence to where you continue to be more and more wrong! Is this a tactic you picked up from Boundingintocomics, cause they do this too!?

If you knew anything at all about writing, you'd know that spending the weekend together is a romance and sex reference. The knowing that Hedy could teach him German but wasn't is backstory to the line.

And talk about looking like a man! Have you seen Heroineburgh!? Where none of the actresses are remotely even half as pretty as Hayley Atwell (Hayley in real life or animated). And maybe there's one, just one mind you, of the many that have a body worth looking at! Clearly your aim has been to hire the least sexy in your area. Don't look in the mirror and blame Marvel for doing what you do. Marvel actually hires hot actresses.

"...that larger "she don't need no man, because she IS a man" theme?" Now I'm confused. I thought this theme was Heroineburgh's theme!

"Stark is the recipient of various putdowns from Peggy in the episode."
List them.

You wouldn't know virtue signaling if it sat on your face.
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Personal attacks are not cool. Stay civil please.
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*Could* have taught him German. *Did* teach him German. What's the difference? They used the German machine as an excuse to drop Hedy Lamarr's name. They figured out a way to write that into the script when it added **nothing at all** to the story.

The putdowns? There are several jibes by Peggy regarding "pushing buttons" and "reversing polarity" towards Stark. Then there is her ire directed at the head of the SSR, "You're lucky you're in the room" and "weapons-grade moron", etc. All of this is to remind us that there could have been the potential of genius female inventors and superpowered female super-soldiers in the 1940s, if only "What If".

The message of this episode? We can't just be happy with the equality that exists in the present - we have to reverse-engineer the past to make it fit contemporary mores, as much as we possibly can. This is a phenomenon called "presentism". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentis ... _analysis)

So I don't know virtue signaling, huh? Well, I took a survey of all of the mentions of Hedy Lamarr in the comics. Basically,
there were almost no mentions of her until the time came to create comic book anthologies about women in science. There was an outlier book called "Dignifying Science" in 1999..but other than that, the vast majority of Hedy Lamarr mentions only started in 2018, nearly two decades after her death.

What were these mentions?
- More comic anthologies like "Brazen: Rebel Women Who Rocked the World" (Macmillan) and "Femme Magnifique" (IDW) in 2018.
These anthologies made sure to present a very intersectional perspective.

- A biographical comic about Hedy Lamarr on Humanoids in 2018. (I read the entire story)

- A variant cover picturing Hedy Lamarr trapping a German spy on the cover of Geoff Johns' "Doomsday Clock" (DC) in 2019.

- A six-issue series on Source Point where Errol Flynn, Charlie Chaplin and Hedy Lamarr team up to "fight the Fuhrer" in 2019.

No Marvel comic ever mentioned Hedy Lamarr. Isn't it interesting that the vast majority of comic book interest in Hedy Lamarr arose only in the past couple years? Is it really that she is finally "getting her due"...or is there just an increasing tendency to virtue signal?
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shevek23 wrote:*Could* have taught him German. *Did* teach him German. What's the difference?
He is in fact correct about what the quote actually says and implies, and you are not. And your opinion of what it does or doesn't "add" to the story is not fact. You're the one obsessively trying to shoehorn in some extraneous reason for it to be there that you made up.

And as for overall comics mentions of Lamarr: you do realize that interest in certain historical figures just ebbs and flows quite normally all the time without conspiracies, right? There was a vogue for Nikolai Tesla in comics and fiction a few years back, and an accompanying narrative about Edison (fair or otherwise) that took hold around the same time. Occasionally these things catch attention and snowball. The mechanisms underlying that are too complicated for "virtue signaling" to be an interesting explanation.
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It was a simple obvious joke, set up early in the episode and nicely paid off. Scribbler explained it well enough.
shevek, I suggest you watch the episode again before continuing to post -- you got so many things wrong in your bloodlust that responding to anything specific is an utter waste of my time. I'm confident that no reasonable person would come to the same conclusions you did.
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NotUv2 wrote:
2 years ago
There was a vogue for Nikolai Tesla in comics and fiction a few years back, and an accompanying narrative about Edison (fair or otherwise) that took hold around the same time. Occasionally these things catch attention and snowball. The mechanisms underlying that are too complicated for "virtue signaling" to be an interesting explanation.
Pretty sure that the Tesla/Edison rivalry drama rose out of the mainstreaming of steampunk.
When the recent rush of interest in Hedy Lamarr is spearheaded by several intersectional comic book anthologies, I think there's a bit of obvious 'mechanism' in that. But you can feel free to disagree.

Meanwhile, Imagineer, I *did* re-watch the episode (which is how I got the exact quotes). All I'm getting from it is a post-modernist version of a power fantasy: 1) woman is oppressed; 2) woman solves oppression by becoming as much like a man as possible; 3) everyone claps.

Before we go down the rabbit hole on whether I have too much "bloodlust" over this issue (and I'm willing to acknowledge that may be the case), let's see what the other "What If?" episodes are like, and whether they follow a similar path. This could merely be an anomaly, after all. Why don't we rest for now, and take a breather?
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Ohhhh, the T'Challa/Starlord What-If is pretty rad. Holy cow.
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NotUv2 wrote:
2 years ago
Ohhhh, the T'Challa/Starlord What-If is pretty rad. Holy cow.
Not siding with Shevek here but how is simply replacing a guy with another one from a different race a "story"? Where are the original stories... like T'Challa actually being black panther?

Also this replacement thing destroys all meaning and all accomplishment. Its like drawing the same picture with 50 different crayons. Stories are not "its my turn today to play Captain America".

This replacement thing is not about social justice. Its about using social justice to disguise poor writing and the inability to be creative.
Damselbinder

Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
NotUv2 wrote:
2 years ago
Ohhhh, the T'Challa/Starlord What-If is pretty rad. Holy cow.
Not siding with Shevek here but how is simply replacing a guy with another one from a different race a "story"? Where are the original stories... like T'Challa actually being black panther?

Also this replacement thing destroys all meaning and all accomplishment. Its like drawing the same picture with 50 different crayons. Stories are not "its my turn today to play Captain America".

This replacement thing is not about social justice. Its about using social justice to disguise poor writing and the inability to be creative.
Superhero comics have been doing this kind of story for DECADES. There was one where, like, Tony Stark was the Sorcerer Supreme. Or if Gwen Stacy were Spider-Man. That one was so successful that "Spider-Gwen" has become one of the most popular characters Marvel has. Just


...relax.
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Damselbinder wrote:
2 years ago

Superhero comics have been doing this kind of story for DECADES. There was one where, like, Tony Stark was the Sorcerer Supreme. Or if Gwen Stacy were Spider-Man. That one was so successful that "Spider-Gwen" has become one of the most popular characters Marvel has. Just


...relax.
Some make sense. Some don't. Tony Stark as the Sorcerer is a weeee bit different than a race swap or gender swap that does not really expand a story. And I didn't think a lot of those what if stories were any good. Its cheap writing, reliving the same stories from the movies only with a different crayon drawing the picture. Reheated left overs. "What if" is just an excuse to swap. Even the commercial for What If shows the original team in New York just swapped interchangeably with a half dozen other teams like everyone equally accomplishes everything and nothing is unique.

But yes if this is what "original ideas" count for today I'll stay in the indie market where the real creative people are. Yeah don't be creative, just serve up Captain America as an eskimo.
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
Not siding with Shevek here but how is simply replacing a guy with another one from a different race a "story"? Where are the original stories... like T'Challa actually being black panther?
Aside from separate outings in the Infinity and Civil War storylines, there was a whole major MCU movie called Black Panther, you might have heard about it? Kind of a big deal. *shrug*
This replacement thing is not about social justice.
Correct! It's just about telling fun alternate stories.

Look, here's an idea. A trucial solution, if you will, since certain persons apparently cannot help themselves and it's quite apparent the forum is not really willing to apply its supposed "no politics" rule.

We can keep @shevek23's thread as a place for certain dudes to be pressed about their supposed victimization by "what-if" stories, fictional as this concern might look to the rest of us, and I'll start a separate review thread which is about just talking about those stories without y'all trying to constantly bait people and drag the thread into politics. Those who really want to yak about how it's all about victimizing the White man with "social justice" "virtue signaling" can keep congregating here, and the rest of us can go there.

Agreeable? What say you?
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
Damselbinder wrote:
2 years ago

Superhero comics have been doing this kind of story for DECADES. There was one where, like, Tony Stark was the Sorcerer Supreme. Or if Gwen Stacy were Spider-Man. That one was so successful that "Spider-Gwen" has become one of the most popular characters Marvel has. Just


...relax.
Some make sense. Some don't. Tony Stark as the Sorcerer is a weeee bit different than a race swap or gender swap that does not really expand a story. And I didn't think a lot of those what if stories were any good. Its cheap writing, reliving the same stories from the movies only with a different crayon drawing the picture. Reheated left overs. "What if" is just an excuse to swap. Even the commercial for What If shows the original team in New York just swapped interchangeably with a half dozen other teams like everyone equally accomplishes everything and nothing is unique.

But yes if this is what "original ideas" count for today I'll stay in the indie market where the real creative people are. Yeah don't be creative, just serve up Captain America as an eskimo.
Bruh. No-one is saying this is Ingmar Bergman. It's not. It's a cheap cash grab, more or less. But - but these are SUPERHERO stories! We live in a world where we've had two cinematic adaptations of the Dark Phoenix Saga and both of them sucked ass! How do you not see potential in "superpowered magical king of a super-hi-tech nation gets transported into space and interacts with characters in the role of a guy who's normally just some dumpy loser".

If they'd put Steve Rogers, Peter Parker, Steven Strange, Bruce Banner, Tony Stark, Bucky, Logan, Eddie Brock, Thor, or Clint Barton in the Star Lord role, you wouldn't have given a shit. But it's T'Challa.

Hmm...
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NotUv2 wrote:
2 years ago

Correct! It's just about telling fun alternate stories.
No its about using it to disguise unimaginative and lazy writing.

Please explain how replacing Starlord with T'Challa somehow made the story fun? Also wouldn't any uniqueness T'Challa has also be wiped clean when he's replaced by a native American or whatever? That means NO ONE, including Panther is unique. Basically robbed all minorities of any unique accomplishments if anyone can just step in to do the job.

When everyone is special... nobody is special.
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
Please explain how replacing Starlord with T'Challa somehow made the story fun?
Somehow I suspect that if you can't grasp how T'Challa Among the Stars is fun at a visceral level, and what's fun about watching him pull together his own crew of misfits (which includes some surprising entries) I doubt "explaining" is going to get you there. I don't need the story to land for everyone. I'm not accepting homework from you as to "why it's fun," I'll handle that on my own review thread. (Unless someone beats me to posting a different review thread... which is what happened. :) )
Also wouldn't any uniqueness T'Challa has also be wiped clean when he's replaced by a native American or whatever?
He isn't "replaced." If you actually watch the episodes, the story explicitly says this[*]. Quill isn't "replaced" either: the ending specifically tells you that the accidental substitution has some pretty big implications for Earth.

[*] That said: a Native American version of Wakanda would be rad as hell and a hugely fun "what if" idea. Why not a Navajo Wakanda, or a Mayan version? Or an Asgardian outpost in Scandinavia that inspired the Vikings? Or something Amazonian, or Indonesian, or an eternal hyper-tech Khmer Empire in Cambodia? Or an Australian Aboriginal one? Or a Polynesian super-kingdom that changed the whole story of Colonizing the Americas? They're all cool, why limit ourselves? That's the whole point of "what if." Maybe the whole departure point is just that "the vibranium meteor landed somewhere else."

Obsession with "replacement" is a bad sign in a lot of ways, but again, that's why I'm proposing a separate thread so the rest of us can leave y'all to your particular proclivities on this one. I ask again: agreeable? It only works if the particularly obsessive draggers-into-politics like you and shevek agree to stay in your lane.
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
NotUv2 wrote:
2 years ago

Correct! It's just about telling fun alternate stories.
No its about using it to disguise unimaginative and lazy writing.

Please explain how replacing Starlord with T'Challa somehow made the story fun? Also wouldn't any uniqueness T'Challa has also be wiped clean when he's replaced by a native American or whatever? That means NO ONE, including Panther is unique. Basically robbed all minorities of any unique accomplishments if anyone can just step in to do the job.

When everyone is special... nobody is special.
See this is the thing you haven't grasped. It hasn't even occurred to you that T'Challa is a character beyond 'black man'. Seeing that CHARACTER in an unusual situation, is interesting. Not that interesting. Not stunningly revolutionary. But faintly interesting. He normally deals with a very different set of bullshit to the set of bullshit that Star Lord deals with. Seeing them swap places is kind of fun. Like... like that one episode of Batman the Animated Series (or mighta been in Superman's I forget which) where Superman masqueraded as Batman. Seeing him deal with the Batman's rogue's gallery instead of his own was entertaining. And I grant you - it is not entertaining enough that an entire SERIES would have been great. But one episode? Sure.

You said it would be okay if it were Tony Stark replacing Steven Strange. And indeed. That was a fun change, because Tony was dealing with shit he doesn't normally deal with. Magic demons and such instead of, y'know, other businessmen and robots and the fucking Mandarin. If that's okay and "T'Challa having to face problems he doesn't normally face because it's goofy sci-fi bullshit" isn't, then I believe you'd call that - because it's a term you use all the time - special pleading.

Tut tut.
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NotUv2 wrote:
2 years ago
Somehow I suspect that if you can't grasp how T'Challa Among the Stars is fun at a visceral level,
Ok explain exactly how swapping him with Quill makes the story better and fun without mentioning race. Why can't it just be a Quill story?

If the motivation is race... then its racist.
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Damselbinder wrote:
2 years ago

See this is the thing you haven't grasped. It hasn't even occurred to you that T'Challa is a character beyond 'black man'. Seeing that CHARACTER in an unusual situation, is interesting.
Ok then T'Challa can be replaced by someone else and that is perfectly fine. Its YOU seeing it as a black man/ white man. If your idea of story telling is to merely replace one character with another then its clearly not story telling. WHAT unique things and views does T'Challa bring to the table that has nothing to do with being black? What exactly.

This is cheap crap and its especially sickening when whites do this. Instead of embracing the uniqueness of black characters and giving them their own stories white leftists take hand me downs and hand it to a black person. "Hey you get to play a white dude".

Stuffing a cat into a bag of dogs in hopes a fight breaks out is not story telling.
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
Ok explain exactly how swapping him with Quill makes the story better and fun without mentioning race.
Damselbinder beat me to it. Put briefly, that's a "you" problem. T'Challa's character is about more than race, they're obviously distinct characters in any number of ways and again, if the only distinction you're capable of seeing between them is "race," then I am not accepting homework from you about why that's "fun" -- that's a "you" problem -- and you're definitely not in a position to try to project racism on anyone else.

I ask again, for the third time now. If we set aside this review thread for you to talk this bullshit unmolested, which I am willing to do, will you leave a separate review thread unmolested?

Yes or no, here. See if you can make your next reply to this a "yes" or a "no."
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NotUv2 wrote:
2 years ago

Damselbinder beat me to it. Put briefly, that's a "you" problem. T'Challa's character is about more than race, they're obviously distinct characters in any number of ways and again, if the only distinction you're capable of seeing between them is "race," then I am not accepting homework from you about why that's "fun" -- that's a "you" problem -- and you're definitely not in a position to try to project racism on anyone else.

I ask again, for the third time now. If we set aside this review thread for you to talk this bullshit unmolested, which I am willing to do, will you leave a separate review thread unmolested?

Yes or no, here. See if you can make your next reply to this a "yes" or a "no."

Its YOU that gets to say whatever unmolested then YOU cry when you're challenged on your points.
Put briefly, that's a "you" problem. T'Challa's character is about more than race, they're obviously distinct characters in any number of ways
Ah yes, another technically ture but ultimately redundant statement. Aunt May is also different. But WHAT EXACTLY is different enough to warrant the swap? BTW I would also not like Quill replaced by Aunt May either.
if the only distinction you're capable of seeing between them is "race
So black panther can be Steve Rogers and you have no issue?

If its not about race... why do the swap. How is T'Challa even remotely related to GOTG to warrant the swap? I could see a related character getting the swap but why him? And what's the "uniqueness"?

If its not a big deal then why the swap?
If T'Challa has something unique to bring then say it specifically, not some round about nothingness?

BTW the exact point of this swap was to get people to complain so one could say "oh its all about race with you.... hee hee hee hee". Stuffing a cat into a bag of dogs and hoping a fight breaks out. Its boring and dull.
Damselbinder

Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
NotUv2 wrote:
2 years ago

Damselbinder beat me to it. Put briefly, that's a "you" problem. T'Challa's character is about more than race, they're obviously distinct characters in any number of ways and again, if the only distinction you're capable of seeing between them is "race," then I am not accepting homework from you about why that's "fun" -- that's a "you" problem -- and you're definitely not in a position to try to project racism on anyone else.

I ask again, for the third time now. If we set aside this review thread for you to talk this bullshit unmolested, which I am willing to do, will you leave a separate review thread unmolested?

Yes or no, here. See if you can make your next reply to this a "yes" or a "no."

Its YOU that gets to say whatever unmolested then YOU cry when you're challenged on your points.
Put briefly, that's a "you" problem. T'Challa's character is about more than race, they're obviously distinct characters in any number of ways
Ah yes, another technically ture but ultimately redundant statement. Aunt May is also different. But WHAT EXACTLY is different enough to warrant the swap? BTW I would also not like Quill replaced by Aunt May either.
if the only distinction you're capable of seeing between them is "race
So black panther can be Steve Rogers and you have no issue?

If its not about race... why do the swap. How is T'Challa even remotely related to GOTG to warrant the swap? I could see a related character getting the swap but why him? And what's the "uniqueness"?

If its not a big deal then why the swap?
If T'Challa has something unique to bring then say it specifically, not some round about nothingness?

BTW the exact point of this swap was to get people to complain so one could say "oh its all about race with you.... hee hee hee hee". Stuffing a cat into a bag of dogs and hoping a fight breaks out. Its boring and dull.
How's Tony Stark related to Steven Strange? You didn't have a problem with that.
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
Its YOU that gets to say whatever unmolested then YOU cry when you're challenged on your points.
I simply expect the forum to enforce its "no politics" rule without fear or favor and not to use it to defend wingnut viewpoints at everyone else's expense. Don't try to twist that. I've been clear about it at all points, at considerable length. I take nothing back.

But to be clear: is that a "no"? YES. OR. NO. This is an open offer for to leave you a lane if you'll do the same for others. Simple reciprocity. Yes or no?
But WHAT EXACTLY is different enough to warrant the swap?
Quill was an orphan and never had reason to go back. T'Challa was the heir to a dynasty, whose central betrayal by Yondu revolved around that question. Quill didn't grow up from childhood with diplomatic and combat training, while T'Challa did. Quill can be played as a rogue; T'Challa can be (and is ) played as a prince in exile. They're opposites in almost every way. Not that this will appease your hyperfocus on race and how it must mean that everyone else is racist (which really is a parallel to shevek's obsession with "virtue signalling," though you started out claiming not to "defend" him).
So black panther can be Steve Rogers and you have no issue?
Fuuuck is your brain ever gonna melt if that's one of the what-ifs, huh?

But... why not? We already live in a universe where The Falcon and the Winter Soldier is a thing. Are you fuming about that, too? (On second thought, don't answer that question.)
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
NotUv2 wrote:
2 years ago
Ohhhh, the T'Challa/Starlord What-If is pretty rad. Holy cow.
Not siding with Shevek here but how is simply replacing a guy with another one from a different race a "story"? Where are the original stories... like T'Challa actually being black panther?

Also this replacement thing destroys all meaning and all accomplishment. Its like drawing the same picture with 50 different crayons. Stories are not "its my turn today to play Captain America".

This replacement thing is not about social justice. Its about using social justice to disguise poor writing and the inability to be creative.

Are we really winging about this in the 'what if... something were different?' TV show? EVERYONE is replaceable in a multiverse... that's kind of the entire point of the entire series. EVERYONE. No one's been 'replaced' in the MCU. Look at the premise of the show really hard again please. The 'original stories of T'Challa actually being black panther' are the movies with T'Challa actually being the black panther... and two episodes in is a bit early to say if 'What if...' is SOLEY 'character swap' stories or just SOMETIMES those.

Anyhow on to my thoughts on the episode. I liked it alright. I feel like the reason T'Challa does BETTER with his universe hopping than Quill did is due to his upbringing. He was born and raised to be a KING up until he was abducted and he brought that early development to the table vs a kid who was raised to be a kid until he was abducted... now do I think there's a BIT much of all the 'yeah T'Challa did pretty good here where Quill didn't' going around.
Spoiler
Yeah Thanos turning up as a not really repentant-reformed Eugenics Gag was a lot...
but am I surprised that T'Challa did better than the guy who mostly just likes to listen to music? No, not really. He had a lot more qualifications cooked into him in his formative years.

MOST importantly. If there's anybody in this thread whining that Peter Quill's been REPLACED!?!!?!??!?!? by T'Challa... than you are a grade A fuckwit. "What If..." you all quit bitching about things and people being changed in a television show SPECIFICALLY about things being different and changed in a multiverse. Y'all knew what you were getting in to when you booted it up from Disney+!

Jesus Christ
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Femina wrote:
2 years ago
EVERYONE is replaceable in a multiverse...
This reminds me of those absurd fights in the Injustice games where Batgirl is fighting Darkseid or Doomsday. Nope people are not interchangeable. If you destroy the uniqueness of Quill you destroy the uniqueness of T'Challa cause if they can be swapped no one has distinctiveness. Not everyone is the same sized crayon. Not all ice scream flavors are the same simply because they are ice cream. People are unique and individual.
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
Femina wrote:
2 years ago
EVERYONE is replaceable in a multiverse...
This reminds me of those absurd fights in the Injustice games where Batgirl is fighting Darkseid or Doomsday. Nope people are not interchangeable. If you destroy the uniqueness of Quill you destroy the uniqueness of T'Challa cause if they can be swapped no one has distinctiveness. Not everyone is the same sized crayon. Not all ice scream flavors are the same simply because they are ice cream. People are unique and individual.
Yeah.

Yeah X.

That's the point.

That's why it's supposed to be fun.

Because the characters are unique and individual, and swapping them around leads to interesting consequences because of how they approach situations differently from each other.

Do you understand this concept?
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Damselbinder wrote:
2 years ago

Do you understand this concept?
No YOU don't. If they are swappable they are NOT unique.

Now one could argue how would Hulk handle getting the soul stone vs Black Window but that is NOT what is seen with Quill and T'Challa. Peggy kind of makes sense since she's already in the secret program and could have been a candidate but even then she brings nothing unique to the table other than being a woman. They could have swapped Steve with the janitor.

YOU are the one not understanding the concept. Merely reskinning someone then finding trivial and meaningless difference to plead your case is not an argument.

Swap Black Widow and Hulk when getting the soul stone - interesting and curious.
Swap Black Widow and Mockingbird when getting the soul stone - a reskinning.

Nobody has presented a compelling reason why Quill and T-Challa are so significantly different that this, in effect isn't merely a reskinning of a character. Maybe to you but I don't see the difference. If I am to be color blind then all it is is a swap of one dude with another with no added or special differences.
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
Nobody has presented a compelling reason why Quill and T-Challa are so significantly different . . .
I don't personally feel like talking with you about that question is going to be worth the effort, since you frankly have yet to manage a post on the subject that hasn't consisted of over-the-top, irrational and sometimes aggressive question-begging. That it took a single sentence -- one sentence -- of someone happening to like an episode to set you off on eight posts and counting of unrelenting thread-crap does not make the prospect of spending time on convincing you of anything very attractive. And at any rate, what you find fun or don't is your business, it's not anyone else's job to prove objectively to you that something is enjoyable.

Never did get an answer to my earlier question, by the way. You know what... never mind.
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
Damselbinder wrote:
2 years ago

Do you understand this concept?
No YOU don't. If they are swappable they are NOT unique.

Now one could argue how would Hulk handle getting the soul stone vs Black Window but that is NOT what is seen with Quill and T'Challa. Peggy kind of makes sense since she's already in the secret program and could have been a candidate but even then she brings nothing unique to the table other than being a woman. They could have swapped Steve with the janitor.

YOU are the one not understanding the concept. Merely reskinning someone then finding trivial and meaningless difference to plead your case is not an argument.

Swap Black Widow and Hulk when getting the soul stone - interesting and curious.
Swap Black Widow and Mockingbird when getting the soul stone - a reskinning.

Nobody has presented a compelling reason why Quill and T-Challa are so significantly different that this, in effect isn't merely a reskinning of a character. Maybe to you but I don't see the difference. If I am to be color blind then all it is is a swap of one dude with another with no added or special differences.
Bruh - like THREE DIFFERENT PEOPLE in this thread have explained why Quill and T'Challa are different! How is "raised to be a king" and "complete schlub" a 'meaningless difference'?
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
Femina wrote:
2 years ago
EVERYONE is replaceable in a multiverse...
This reminds me of those absurd fights in the Injustice games where Batgirl is fighting Darkseid or Doomsday. Nope people are not interchangeable. If you destroy the uniqueness of Quill you destroy the uniqueness of T'Challa cause if they can be swapped no one has distinctiveness. Not everyone is the same sized crayon. Not all ice scream flavors are the same simply because they are ice cream. People are unique and individual.
Don't watch it then Mr. X? Nobodies got a gun to your head saying 'WATCH What If... right th' fuck now and be MISERABLY obtuse about it!'

If you can't wrap your head around the multiverse then you can't do it. I'm mildly with you on the subject of the multiverse 'in general' I DON'T actually want it in the MCU. I sort of agree that creating a space where you can just snag any one of thirty five Spider-Men and even just 'accidentally on purpose' mix them up makes for a breeding ground of bad plot decisions and storylines that you can avoid closing by just going 'whoops the multiverse made it irrelevant oooooooh weeeeeeell........' but NONE of that is happening here. Thus far the stories haven't been about the multiverse fucking up the MCU, they've just been about multiverses that happen to exist differently on their OWN TERMS.

But this isn't fuckin' news? This isn't even NEW NEWS. This shows been coming out for over a year now and they've never even ONCE pretended like the concept was gonna be anything other than what it's been? I don't understand the sudden whining about a T'Challa Star Lord. NOBODY is unique. Everybody could wind up ANYTHING but for the luck of the draw, an unlikely moment, and/or their own mindset, personality and experience when it happens. We don't even get a realistic shot at existing in the first place since we had to beat out a bazillion other combinations of genetic variables between all the sperm and eggs we could derive from FFS!

Peter Quill was Star Lord cause he got abducted by aliens and was savvy enough to survive in the universe, there's nothing inherently 'special' about that. Any of a thousand people probably just in YOUR CITY if abducted by aliens could probably make a decent go of it. They wouldn't all wind up naming themselves Star Lord sure... but then we don't all live in a comic book universe either.

It's just BEYOND absurd to me that THIS topic of complaint is cropping up right now. It's like whining about finding a roller coaster at the amusement park that you went to so that you could ride a roller coaster. "Oh my god! They advertised roller coasters... and there's a roller coaster!? Don't they know Six Flags is the place that I've arbitrarily decided is allowed to have roller coasters!? Somebody's got to DO SOMETHING about this!?"
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Episode 2 showed a pretty dramatic upswing in the fortunes of the universe simply by having space pirates abduct the wrong ten-year-old.

But don't just put all the weight on who Peter and T'Challa were by age ten -- Peter had to be kept hidden from Ego, and T'Challa didn't.

Then again, events in the Star Panther universe clearly suggest T'Challa's superpower is rhetoric. I guess that's stronger than the power of great music? I'm not sure I like that idea. :)
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NotUv2
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Imagineer wrote:
2 years ago
Episode 2 showed a pretty dramatic upswing in the fortunes of the universe simply by having space pirates abduct the wrong ten-year-old.

But don't just put all the weight on who Peter and T'Challa were by age ten -- Peter had to be kept hidden from Ego, and T'Challa didn't.
That's a really good point, and it makes sense.
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RedMountain
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You all are honestly worse than the Star Trek vs. Star Wars nerds, just let people enjoy their superhero show if they want to. If you don't like it or its themes or whatever you think it is trying to do, don't watch it, lol. Would save a lot of pointless hand wringing.
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shevek
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Ruh Roh:
Spoiler
In What If Episodes 8 and 9, the vaunted OP Carol Danvers is unsuccessful against not just one, but *two* titans of the MCU.

And boy, are her Twitter stans mad. An article in Screenrant even claims she'll have to redeem herself in her next
movie ("The Marvels"). They don't understand, apparently, that those What If episodes are ***alternative universes*** which
don't impinge on whatever's going on in the MCU. It's apparently triggering to them, just to see her lose in any situation.
I wasn't going to watch any more What If but it looks like I'll have to check out eps 8 and 9 just to get a glimpse of this, since there might even be some decent peril.
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