Political Discourse - What's On Your Mind?

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DrDominator9
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Think that life is too calm? Need to get your opinion out there?

This is the thread to put it down and let your voice be heard.

You can discuss the shootings in Georgia, cancel culture, life getting back to "normal" or anything else that needs airing. I just ask that you do not disparage other members and engage in thoughtful discourse that includes facts occasionally.

I'll start.

I think the rollout of the vaccines has been incredibly scattershot. I'm hoping it gets better here in New Jersey. How are other states handling things? Or for that matter, other countries. Feels like a lottery system here with the odds against me.
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The California decision to go strictly by age (beyond healthcare workers) seemed like 50% failure to take responsibility for defining vulnerable populations and 50% catering to the elder demographic because they have political clout.

(As of a few days ago they've adopted some more reasonable guidelines.)

California is not the uberliberal state people think it is. Sure there's progressivism but the streaks of ugly reactionary -isms are long.
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Imagineer wrote:
3 years ago
The California decision to go strictly by age (beyond healthcare workers) seemed like 50% failure to take responsibility for defining vulnerable populations and 50% catering to the elder demographic because they have political clout.

(As of a few days ago they've adopted some more reasonable guidelines.)

California is not the uberliberal state people think it is. Sure there's progressivism but the streaks of ugly reactionary -isms are long.
There's definitely a hard-shell conservative population in California, despite their progressive stature among the states. The did elect Ronald Regan governor, after all. And Aaahnald.
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bushwackerbob
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Anytime the government tries to organize any large scale undertaking, it screws it up. Look at the scandalous and horrible treatment our veterans get at these VA hospitals, that is a disgrace, look at the debacle ObamaCare was when it was first rolled out. Anybody who thought the government could dole out this vaccine with any level of competence has clearly not paid attention to history. In my state of MA, they were originally letting hospitals give folks the vaccine, but for some reason took that option away for some reason and my governor has butchered his handling of the vaccine rollout far worse than many other states and the dope is now blaming the feds (Biden) and pharmaceutical companies for his failures. We had a website in order for older over 65 folks to register for the vaccine that was apparently very difficult to navigate, and this is on top of the degree of difficulty that you are asking a lot of these over 65 folks who have little or no ability to operate a computer. My government can barely deliver the mail and you were entrusting these folks to dole out a vaccine in a timely and orderly manner? Talk about wishful thinking.
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DrDominator9 wrote:
3 years ago
There's definitely a hard-shell conservative population in California, despite their progressive stature among the states. The did elect Ronald Regan governor, after all. And Aaahnald.
Reagan was a democrat at the time.
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Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
DrDominator9 wrote:
3 years ago
There's definitely a hard-shell conservative population in California, despite their progressive stature among the states. The did elect Ronald Regan governor, after all. And Aaahnald.
Reagan was a democrat at the time.
Ronald Reagan switched from Democrat to Republican in 1962. He served as Republican governor of California from 1967-1975. Reagan famously said "I didn't leave the party, the party left me".
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Governor Reagan was a big fan of the Black Panther Party and the Second Amendment.
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bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
DrDominator9 wrote:
3 years ago
There's definitely a hard-shell conservative population in California, despite their progressive stature among the states. The did elect Ronald Regan governor, after all. And Aaahnald.
Reagan was a democrat at the time.
Ronald Reagan switched from Democrat to Republican in 1962. He served as Republican governor of California from 1967-1975. Reagan famously said "I didn't leave the party, the party left me".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governors ... ald_Reagan
True. My bad.
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bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
My government can barely deliver the mail and you were entrusting these folks to dole out a vaccine in a timely and orderly manner? Talk about wishful thinking.
Same government, both dem a repub, who raked up 27 tril of debt. They cannot run medicade and medicare. And we're stuck in two conflicts we still can't seem to get out of. They can't balance the budget, run massive deficits.
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bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
Anytime the government tries to organize any large scale undertaking, it screws it up. Look at the scandalous and horrible treatment our veterans get at these VA hospitals, that is a disgrace, look at the debacle ObamaCare was when it was first rolled out. Anybody who thought the government could dole out this vaccine with any level of competence has clearly not paid attention to history. In my state of MA, they were originally letting hospitals give folks the vaccine, but for some reason took that option away for some reason and my governor has butchered his handling of the vaccine rollout far worse than many other states and the dope is now blaming the feds (Biden) and pharmaceutical companies for his failures. We had a website in order for older over 65 folks to register for the vaccine that was apparently very difficult to navigate, and this is on top of the degree of difficulty that you are asking a lot of these over 65 folks who have little or no ability to operate a computer. My government can barely deliver the mail and you were entrusting these folks to dole out a vaccine in a timely and orderly manner? Talk about wishful thinking.
I'm a veteran, and I have medical problems with my lungs. VA has been my medical care provider for over twenty years, and I have had no problem with their service. I DO live in a state, New York, that has a well regulated medical industry, so they have standards they have to meet, unlike their compatriots in some of those southern states,(like Arizona?)with poorly regulated medical systems!
Please don't lump all states together, and not all regulations are bad!

My 2 cents.
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I'm pleased to hear you've had a positive result over the years with the Vet Admin. system, Danorian. It's refreshing to hear the good side of things occasionally.
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If dems want national health care they can solve this very easily. There are millions of them, the upper crust are mostly progressive and democrat, lots of rich mega corporations like Apple and Google. So they form a VOLUNTARY non-profit coop ins pool. They pay in progressively because they believe in this process, they use the pool to buy some drugs in bulk and offer charity to the poor.

Why wouldn't that work? They don't need everyone's capitulation or money.

Not understanding why every progressive solution requires forcing everyone to do things one way. They seem more interested in dragging a group kicking and screaming ie classism.

Face the facts. nearly 50% of the population won't trust the other 50% and that does not include all the ethnic tribes who stay with their own kind like Asians, Jews, etc. So instead of forcing everyone into one plan which simply does not work, figure out a voluntary system.

If your system cannot work voluntarily then there is something inherently wrong with it. The vast majority of people are not criminals. We don't conduct business at the end of a gun.
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If the Dem politicians really believed in Universal national healthcare they would not have exempted themselves in favor of their much more comprehensive and expensive, cadillac health plans that they enjoy. One would think that true political leadership would entail some of these politicians forgoing those cadillac plans and setting an example for the rest of us and putting their healthcare lot in with the rest of us regular average folks, practice what you preach. I am not an expert on the healthcare industry or economics, but a lot of the folks who are, say that in order to enact any type of universal healthcare plan you need a plan that compels every American that makes a living wage to opt into the system and to monetarily punish those folks who do not wish to opt in. I do not think the math or economics work out if universal healthcare plan is purely voluntary in nature. In one of the most liberal states in the U.S, my home state of Massachusetts, the prospect of universal healthcare was so unpopular, in 2010 we elected a Republican Senator for the first time in almost 40 years.
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I'm pretty sure he's not putting enough stock into that 'or at least until your threshold of bullshit is overwhelmed' part... cause that's basically the whole merry go round of disagreement to begin with since what qualifies as bullshit is so different to everyone.
Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Face the facts. nearly 50% of the population won't trust the other 50% and that does not include all the ethnic tribes who stay with their own kind like Asians, Jews, etc. So instead of forcing everyone into one plan which simply does not work, figure out a voluntary system.

If your system cannot work voluntarily then there is something inherently wrong with it. The vast majority of people are not criminals. We don't conduct business at the end of a gun.
I have a hard time imagining there are many systems that work voluntarily that involve any sort of quest for any sort of profit. You don't have to be a criminal to be a greedy shitbag hoarding far more money than you could ever spend... volunteering money away is something utterly foreign to the mind of somebody like Jeff Bezos whose spent his life hoarding more dollars bills than he will ever have heartbeats. Hoping for the kind of person who feels like they NEED that kind of money to voluntarily redistribute it to the betterment of mankind is like looking for a unicorn.
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Femina wrote:
3 years ago
I have a hard time imagining there are many systems that work voluntarily that involve any sort of quest for any sort of profit. You don't have to be a criminal to be a greedy shitbag hoarding far more money than you could ever spend... volunteering money away is something utterly foreign to the mind of somebody like Jeff Bezos whose spent his life hoarding more dollars bills than he will ever have heartbeats. Hoping for the kind of person who feels like they NEED that kind of money to voluntarily redistribute it to the betterment of mankind is like looking for a unicorn.
Quest for profit does not initiate force.

Tell you what, you name the worst thing that quest for profit has ever caused and I will top it in orders of magnitude by what forced, planned economies have caused.

As for Bezos, his wife took a lot of his money.... so there's that greed thing.

And a lot of these people are professed progressives... so where's the wealth redistribution? Have you noticed as the government increases its power and even during the lock downs these guys got a lot richer and the middle class dried up more.

If the money is so important how about you become a billionaire then distribute the money. Also start asking why a lot of these self proclaimed progressive billionaires aren't wealth redistributing.
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Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Tell you what, you name the worst thing that quest for profit has ever caused and I will top it in orders of magnitude by what forced, planned economies have caused.
No, just... no. That's not a conversation that leads to anything with merit between us... nor one I particularly care to pursue. Suffice it to say, I don't wager a planned economy is likely to work any better than our current fucked up wealth imbalance, not in the country we live in as is. Either way, we've still got a mountain of poverty stricken people who got there for the crime of working an honest lifetime without cheating their way up into the billionaire club.
As for Bezos, his wife took a lot of his money.... so there's that greed thing.
I got you so... Since Bezos wife is greedy enough to take some of his money, then its a good idea for Jeff Bezos to have enough money to build a penis rocket to outer space in his back yard. Cool. That was really worth discussing. I feel a lot better about Jeff Bezos having more dollar bills than he'll have heart beats in his entire life while I watch my Dad who spent his life literally saving peoples lives as an E.M.T. falls further and further into poverty in retirement. But Bezos wife is greedy, that changes everything :blink:

You drive me crazy with this shit Mr. X. You're clearly an intelligent man, I can tell that much simply by nature of your capabilities with the English language and then you'll turn around and write something like this as if its an argument. It's not an argument, it was hardly worth writing at all. At best it reads as an affirmation to do basically anything. 'Yeah I murdered a guy, but Jeffrey Dahmer killed 17... am I really so bad?'

Bah! Sorry, I don't mean to jump down your throat over this so much. It's just not the first time you've said a thing like this, and I know it wont be the last. I just really, REALLY wish you wouldn't even bother. Cause it falls from relevance in the conversation like water through a colander.
And a lot of these people are professed progressives... so where's the wealth redistribution? Have you noticed as the government increases its power and even during the lock downs these guys got a lot richer and the middle class dried up more.
Uh yeah, yeah I noticed, it actually really popped off in Ernest right around the time Trump got elected president and started stocking his cabinet with corporate CEO's and other shit. But I don't see where anything I wrote above indicated that I was chill with progressives hoarding wealth either? The wealth gap syphoning over to the mega rich isn't anything so brand spanking new as to ever conceivably be attributed to one political faction or another.
If the money is so important how about you become a billionaire then distribute the money. Also start asking why a lot of these self proclaimed progressive billionaires aren't wealth redistributing.
I CAN'T become a billionaire. I don't have a 1% rich daddy to get my foot in the door of the billionaire club. And I already answered why they aren't redistributing it in my above post. Cause their greedy shits and the concept of redistributing their wealth is foreign to them. 1% aren't limited to Republican? Additionally I'd NEVER MAKE IT to a billion dollars before I began looking for some mode to start putting the money back out. That's sort of my point in my above post. The mere CONCEPT of giving up any of their money is foreign to them, that's how they could convince themselves in the first place that they ever had any need to a billion dollars or hold on to a billion dollars. The truth of the matter is, Jeff Bezos is at the point where he could start wiping his ass after shitting with thousand dollar bank bills, stuffing his pillows with them, setting up shredders in the winter to continually blanket a private island in the festive shredded remains of thousand dollar bills all season long every year for the rest of his life....

and he'd never have to change his life style, much less reduce his standard of living to merely comfortable rather than extravagant.

Meanwhile people still starve to death cause they can't afford food and the bullet train project in L.A. that could have been a milestone in fast affordable transportation has lain dead and unfinished for nearly a decade, the cranes and machinery just left there for the sands of time to one day swallow whole.

Edit: For the record, I feel like our exchange here was perhaps taken as though my previous statement was one with a specific political slant, where really I merely meant to express my sincere doubt that there's any hope whatsoever of any 'volunteering' of wealth distribution and my reasoning for believing that... and the rest can't AFFORD to volunteer because they now need to earn every scrap of change that trickles down just to survive. I didn't necessarily mean to imply that meant we should be petitioning the government to forcibly take the money. Honestly the f'kers on reddit did a better job of ripping money from the mitts of the super rich by stumping the short sale of Gamestop in just a few weeks than I imagine a government program to redistribute it ever could or would. In any case, Volunteer work is pretty much only ever successful in a non profit endeavor… and even those oft begin to start profiteering. Charities are pretty much, to a one, a sham these days.
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The Phantom Zone huh!?

Well, this is the sub-forum these threads belong!

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Femina - lets just cut through all of this. The only system that is moral is a voluntary one. Voluntary has its issues. Heck you could round everyone up, force them to grow food, slide bowls of food under their cell door, stick a tongue depressor down their throat and a glove up their bum then pat yourself on the back you made everyone equal and solved all social problems. Only you did not and you created a prison and a whole lot of atrocity... but it would be efficient.

The goal is not efficiency. Its the moral good of not initiating force as much as we possibly can. Voluntary may not solve poverty but we know forced wealth redistribution does not.

Greed is not the issue because greed is a false flag argument based on envy of others. You make your success. Its not measured against another.
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Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Femina - lets just cut through all of this. The only system that is moral is a voluntary one. Voluntary has its issues. Heck you could round everyone up, force them to grow food, slide bowls of food under their cell door, stick a tongue depressor down their throat and a glove up their bum then pat yourself on the back you made everyone equal and solved all social problems. Only you did not and you created a prison and a whole lot of atrocity... but it would be efficient.

The goal is not efficiency. Its the moral good of not initiating force as much as we possibly can. Voluntary may not solve poverty but we know forced wealth redistribution does not.

Greed is not the issue because greed is a false flag argument based on envy of others. You make your success. Its not measured against another.
I mean look, if we could somehow phase shift into Starfleet circa, before they reinvented television to dress down Captain Picard over the air, and live in a society that had outgrown our infancy to the point stock broker guys only real value anymore is calling a Romulan on their bluff then hell yeah, sign me the fuck up! Human beings have proven not to be capable of this, fuck, they can't even have TELEVISION SHOWS about this for longer than a few decades before some dumbass hipster young fuck decides it needs to be shaken up and before you know it, Star Trek is just a cheap knock off of Mass Effect!

We can't even do it in FICTION, what hope have we in reality? Greed is not a false flag argument. We DON'T all make our success anymore, that's my point. Obviously greed isn't the SOLE FACTOR in this. My father worked his ASS off for his entire life. working 72 hour shifts, hardly sleeping often enough, so that he could pilot the vehicle to save lives... and by the time the job destroyed his body it hadn't paid a fraction of enough that, even with continued disability, he isn't sliding further and further into poverty. The system didn't value his sacrifices enough to reward him with success. Tod on the internet however, who randomly had a thousand shares in Gamestop he'd never bothered to offload until just the other month is suddenly rich AF... and he did hardly anything of value at all to earn it (Unless, I guess, he was paid in shares one month instead of money... in which case... well I guess I wouldn't put it past Gamestop xD)

I'm not trying to sandblast you here though, I'm not saying some people don't manage to make their own success. My Sister runs her own small business that, while not spectacularly profitable, manages to get her by comfortably FOR NOW. However, I feel it's mildly disingenuous to just shrug off one problem as a false flag simply because SOME people manage to get America to do right by them. Many do, Most can't get it to work for them, and many of those who can't weren't just lazy fucks who never tried, many of them are people the system has failed outright.

...

And a GREAT DEAL of success is inherently measured against another's... at least it does in a Capitalist society. VOLUNTEER society doesn't behave on making ones own success however, Volunteer society is one where we all succeed or fail together. In our capitalist society quite often our success is measured by what we have that others don't. For someone to have a dollar, everyone else in the country loses out on that dollar fractionally. For a single dollar, that loss is essentially intangible. For someone to have a upwards to a trillion dollars however, that fractional loss begins to manifest as tangible consequences.
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We DON'T all make our success anymore, that's my point.
Yes we do. Someone has told you a lie. Its not perfect but YES you live in the best country in the world to succeed. Why do all these immigrants come here?
And a GREAT DEAL of success is inherently measured against another's
That is false. Your success is your attainment based on your criteria. Also if what you say is true then a "living wage" becomes meaningless because its a sliding bar based on the richest guy in the room. You're not poorer if someone else became 10 times richer. Life is not a zero sum game. That is the worst falsehood told to mostly younger people.

Your weight for example does not vary by the number of thin or fat people around you. What others do is not a measure.
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^^^^But you don't use your weight to acquire necessities. If you have less money than others the seller can price you out of the market by raising prices to sell to those who can afford it.
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Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Femina - lets just cut through all of this. The only system that is moral is a voluntary one. Voluntary has its issues. Heck you could round everyone up, force them to grow food, slide bowls of food under their cell door, stick a tongue depressor down their throat and a glove up their bum then pat yourself on the back you made everyone equal and solved all social problems. Only you did not and you created a prison and a whole lot of atrocity... but it would be efficient.

The goal is not efficiency. Its the moral good of not initiating force as much as we possibly can. Voluntary may not solve poverty but we know forced wealth redistribution does not.

Greed is not the issue because greed is a false flag argument based on envy of others. You make your success. Its not measured against another.
Would this voluntary system also apply to everything that's currently funded by general taxation? Police? Fire Service? Public Schools? The Military? Infrastructure?

Would the provision of all those things be decided by the generosity of a philanthropic few? Would the philanthropists get to pick and choose which services to fund, such as excluding Military funding? Would the philanthropists get to pick and choose which parts of services should receive funding, such as refusal to pay for troops to be stationed in Iraq?

Or are we just talking about healthcare and leaving the sick and vulnerable to go fuck themselves if the philanthropists aren't feeling generous?
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Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Yes we do. Someone has told you a lie. Its not perfect but YES you live in the best country in the world to succeed. Why do all these immigrants come here?
So we're just gonna plug our ears and go 'nuh uhhhhh!' are we? Nobody TOLD me anything, I experienced it, I saw it. It's NOT perfect therefore we do NOT all make our own success. It's possible and happens a great deal ESPECIALLY in the quest to make billions of dollars, to fuck others over. When you fuck someone over, you've taken their ability to make their own success away from them.
That is false. Your success is your attainment based on your criteria. Also if what you say is true then a "living wage" becomes meaningless because its a sliding bar based on the richest guy in the room. You're not poorer if someone else became 10 times richer. Life is not a zero sum game. That is the worst falsehood told to mostly younger people.

Your weight for example does not vary by the number of thin or fat people around you. What others do is not a measure.
Your weight is something you may be in DIRECT control of. Your finances are not. Your finances are the result of your job, how much your employer is willing to pay for that job, which job you're able to attain, which jobs the system values more or less than your job etc. OR, god forbid, your ability to play the stock market or win the lottery off the stock market or lose it all at the stock market... and for the record, your weight might not even be something you're in direct control of variable upon health conditions, your income and what foods you can afford, what foods are available, etc. Eating healthy is becoming a luxury today. Necessitating sometimes that we eat what's cheap and affordable in order to just live long enough to maybe have a chance to plan out next weeks menu.

YOU'RE wrong. Someone's told YOU a lie. That everything works because you live in the best country to succeed. Maybe that's what America WAS once, for certain people, it's NOT that anymore. It's changing, has been for awhile, and not in the favor of people like you or me... America is a FAR different country today than the one I was growing up in.
Heroine Addict wrote:
3 years ago
Would this voluntary system also apply to everything that's currently funded by general taxation? Police? Fire Service? Public Schools? The Military? Infrastructure?

Would the provision of all those things be decided by the generosity of a philanthropic few? Would the philanthropists get to pick and choose which services to fund, such as excluding Military funding? Would the philanthropists get to pick and choose which parts of services should receive funding, such as refusal to pay for troops to be stationed in Iraq?

Or are we just talking about healthcare and leaving the sick and vulnerable to go fuck themselves if the philanthropists aren't feeling generous?
An all out voluntary system still necessitates a governing body of sorts, but the prevailing hope would be that since its not 'profiting' them to lead, they'd naturally just lead properly. They'd, theoretically, live no better or worse than a plumber. It's Starfleet basically. It's also impossible. Human beings are monkeys. Monkeys are the most violent species of animal on the planet. We're too insular, and our emotions run too hot. The idea of utopianism, we all get along and do right by one another just 'because', is a drug fueled sweet dream.

I won't say its not worth fighting for though? It's a GOOD dream... Since when you fight for things to get better they do tend to marginally get better, and if you fight hard enough for long enough, things get about as good as they feasibly CAN before the inevitable backslide... but at least by then SOME people have got to live a fairly happy life.

...

'Picard' took a big ol' shit on Starfleet though so now even THAT isn't an example of a utopian future. Like I said above xD we can't even maintain the concept in FICTION... what hope have we in reality?

...

F'kin Kurtzmen >_>
Last edited by Femina 3 years ago, edited 4 times in total.
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Heroine Addict wrote:
3 years ago
Would this voluntary system also apply to everything that's currently funded by general taxation? Police? Fire Service? Public Schools? The Military? Infrastructure?
We already have a mostly voluntary army. The question is how to pay for it.
Most fire in rural areas is voluntary. My old town had 3 firemen and 12 volunteers.
Or are we just talking about healthcare and leaving the sick and vulnerable to go fuck themselves if the philanthropists aren't feeling generous?
As opposed to f-them to a grossly inefficient system that gives more money to special interest?

We also cannot eliminate murder but we strive to try.

Why do you assume YOU wouldn't help others? If people truly were that greedy WHY would they pay the taxes? WHY would they elect people to impose the taxes. Your argument suffers from Hobbes paradox. No system to help people would exist at all if humans are the way you paint them out to be.
Would the philanthropists get to pick and choose which services to fund, such as excluding Military funding?
Maybe we wouldn't be waging two unconstitutional wars in countries we shouldn't be in if the government didn't have access to an unlimited pool of money we are forced to pay for? Moral hazard.
YOU'RE wrong. Someone's told YOU a lie. That everything works because you live in the best country to succeed.
I'm not wasting time with rosey paths or strawman arguments. Even under the syste, you propose there is no guarantee of anything. As you stated we strive for the best. Voluntary is BETTER than force. Just like we strive to eliminate murder or racism even though that's most likely unattainable.
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Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago

Why do you assume YOU wouldn't help others? If people truly were that greedy WHY would they pay the taxes? WHY would they elect people to impose the taxes. Your argument suffers from Hobbes paradox. No system to help people would exist at all if humans are the way you paint them out to be.
Ye-ah you see you support a man who DOESN'T pay his taxes and openly advocated in the 2016 debate that not paying taxes was 'smart' at the same time as decrying the budget defecit which gets offset by people... Er... paying their taxes.

So on the basis you have in the past supported the leader of your nation at the time, who WAS and IS precisely that greedy, isn't it a fair assumption after all?
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tallyho wrote:
3 years ago
Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago

Why do you assume YOU wouldn't help others? If people truly were that greedy WHY would they pay the taxes? WHY would they elect people to impose the taxes. Your argument suffers from Hobbes paradox. No system to help people would exist at all if humans are the way you paint them out to be.
Ye-ah you see you support a man who DOESN'T pay his taxes and openly advocated in the 2016 debate that not paying taxes was 'smart' at the same time as decrying the budget defecit which gets offset by people... Er... paying their taxes.

So on the basis you have in the past supported the leader of your nation at the time, who WAS and IS precisely that greedy, isn't it a fair assumption after all?
Many people with millions or billions do not want to pay taxes or try to pay as little as possible. There are greedy people in our world. Mr. X support a guy who does not pay taxes and gave tax cuts to the rich. There is greediness in politics and the corporate world that influences our politics.

The common man like all of us at this forum pay taxes. However, the richest people in the nation are not paying their fair share. Amazon has recently added a faculty in my state. They invested nothing in the faculty. The state is paying everything for it, and Amazon does not have to pay taxes for a number of years. Talk about a fucking handout.

Andrew Yang introduced a unique idea to counter this issue. He wanted to create a tax and monthly stimulus payment to Americans. The US would tax corporations for the amount of data that they receive from people. Data about people is very valuable and corporations have not always illegally obtained data from us. This tax would be a form of payment for the data to Americans.
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ThePornCritic wrote:
3 years ago

Many people with millions or billions do not want to pay taxes or try to pay as little as possible. There are greedy people in our world.
So what. How is that relevant to you. If I double my wealth today how is that relevant to you?
There is greediness in politics and the corporate world that influences our politics.
So as Noam Chomsky points out, give them as little power as possible.
However, the richest people in the nation are not paying their fair share.
What is "fair share". In the US the rich pay over 90% of the taxes and the 1% pay over 40% of the taxes... and for services they don't use. If you argue freeloading, a good 50% of the US population pays no income tax and a large portion get a net gain from taxes ie negative taxes. Not sure what you mean by fair.
Andrew Yang introduced a unique idea to counter this issue. He wanted to create a tax and monthly stimulus payment to Americans.
UBI won't work. I believe Holland already tried this. Also the fed will never give up the other taxes.
Amazon does not have to pay taxes for a number of years
Yes a PROGRESSIVE company like Amazon not paying taxes.

There are 50 times more millionaires in congress than the general population and its not just Trump. Warren, Sanders etc all have wealth. There maybe a connection there. Pelosi and her millions. Maybe THAT is also greed.
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Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago

What is "fair share". In the US the rich pay over 90% of the taxes and the 1% pay over 40% of the taxes... and for services they don't use. If you argue freeloading, a good 50% of the US population pays no income tax and a large portion get a net gain from taxes ie negative taxes. Not sure what you mean by fair.
I will leave this topic for a while on this note.

Your statement about the rich's payments of taxes is misleading. First, the top one percent earn a disproportionate amount of income from the the majority of people in the country. Second, working class people pay the majority of payroll taxes. Payroll taxes only tax the first $130,000 of earned income from a job.

A B-Star actor with $10,000,000 income from 2021 will only pay payroll taxes on the first $130,000. Less than 10% of the actor's full income will be taxed.

An investor with $20,000,000 from dividends and capitals gains will pay ZERO in OASDI taxes. This income is not from a job. It is from an investment.
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ThePornCritic wrote:
3 years ago
First, the top one percent earn a disproportionate amount of income from the the majority of people in the country.
This is irrelevant (not trying to be harsh). YOU also more than likely earn disproportionately more than a lot of people. Doesn't mean anything. How much I earn has no relevance on your life. And the key word is "earned".

An investor with $20,000,000 from dividends and capitals gains will pay ZERO in OASDI taxes.
Because he already paid the tax when he earned the initial amount.
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Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
ow is that relevant to you. If I double my wealth today how is that relevant to you?
I went over this above. For every dollar YOU HAVE, the rest of the world loses out on that dollar proportionally. Even if you continually expand the amount of dollars available that merely begins to erode the value of each dollar. By and large this works fine for human beings like you or I who earn an amount that is proportional to our needs and SANE wants and desires. It probably ISN'T relevant to me if YOU double your wealth today. But if say, JEFF BEZOS doubled his wealth today, the effects would almost instantly begin snowballing into problems for everybody else.
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Femina wrote:
3 years ago
I went over this above. For every dollar YOU HAVE, the rest of the world loses out on that dollar proportionally.
Absolutely false. Life is not a zero sum game. The pie gets bigger. If what you say is true we'd still be stuck with the same wealth we had 100 years ago. Each life born is labor. Labor provides value.


Me doubling my wealth has no impact on you. Zero sum game is one of the worst falsehoods taught to younger people. That mindset is why you're trapped in the cycle of thinking force is a viable solution since you think all wealth is robbed from someone else.

Very simple concept of homesteading. When labor is mixed with a resource to create value that becomes property.
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Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Femina wrote:
3 years ago
I went over this above. For every dollar YOU HAVE, the rest of the world loses out on that dollar proportionally.
Absolutely false. Life is not a zero sum game. The pie gets bigger. If what you say is true we'd still be stuck with the same wealth we had 100 years ago. Each life born is labor. Labor provides value.


Me doubling my wealth has no impact on you. Zero sum game is one of the worst falsehoods taught to younger people. That mindset is why you're trapped in the cycle of thinking force is a viable solution since you think all wealth is robbed from someone else.

Very simple concept of homesteading. When labor is mixed with a resource to create value that becomes property.
The pie get's bigger but the contents growth isn't as great. One person having a billion dollars that they are hoarding and not circulating absolutely has an impact on the economy and increasing the size of the pie isn't an equal sum growth. The more the pie is inflated the greater its ratio of nothing in relation to substance becomes, this is one of driving forces behind, and one of the primary dangers of, inflation. This is BASIC shit. I mean we obviously left the gold standard long ago as it became less and less feasible but what we're doing now is basically a band aid. I'm not harping on anyone's right to earn money, I'm simply speaking to the basic realities that your earning money DOES impact others to SOME degree, and the degree in which that impact goes from irrelevant to problematic grows the more money you are making, and when you are HOARDING it like Smaug you're gonna have to start displacing some dwarves (not that all of the dwarves involved were saints themselves). Turning around and then asserting to the displaced dwarves that they made their own success (or in this case, their misfortune), and that Smaug had nothing to do with it, is willfully ignorant.
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Femina wrote:
3 years ago
The pie get's bigger but the contents growth isn't as great. One person having a billion dollars that they are hoarding and not circulating absolutely has an impact on the economy and increasing the size of the pie isn't an equal sum growth. ignorant.
You have a fundamental non-understanding of economics. Rich people do not stuff their money under a mattress or its not in a giant vault and Scrooge McDuck goes swimming in it.

Their money is invested. Its in McDonalds, and Home Depot and all sorts of investments. The money is used for loans and capital. Its used to create growth. In fact the billionaire is doing society a favor by investing his money in a rational manner vs flushing it down a toilet in hand outs. Where do you think 401ks are invested? Retirement funds? Where does venture capital come from? And that money creates jobs and grows the pie. :blink:
Damselbinder

Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Femina wrote:
3 years ago
The pie get's bigger but the contents growth isn't as great. One person having a billion dollars that they are hoarding and not circulating absolutely has an impact on the economy and increasing the size of the pie isn't an equal sum growth. ignorant.
You have a fundamental non-understanding of economics. Rich people do not stuff their money under a mattress or its not in a giant vault and Scrooge McDuck goes swimming in it.

Their money is invested. Its in McDonalds, and Home Depot and all sorts of investments. The money is used for loans and capital. Its used to create growth. In fact the billionaire is doing society a favor by investing his money in a rational manner vs flushing it down a toilet in hand outs. Where do you think 401ks are invested? Retirement funds? Where does venture capital come from? And that money creates jobs and grows the pie. :blink:
You have a fundamental non-understanding of economics if you think that 'hand outs' are flushing money down a toilet. Don't people given hand outs spend them? It stimulates the economy.
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Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Femina wrote:
3 years ago
The pie get's bigger but the contents growth isn't as great. One person having a billion dollars that they are hoarding and not circulating absolutely has an impact on the economy and increasing the size of the pie isn't an equal sum growth. ignorant.
You have a fundamental non-understanding of economics. Rich people do not stuff their money under a mattress or its not in a giant vault and Scrooge McDuck goes swimming in it.

Their money is invested. Its in McDonalds, and Home Depot and all sorts of investments. The money is used for loans and capital. Its used to create growth. In fact the billionaire is doing society a favor by investing his money in a rational manner vs flushing it down a toilet in hand outs. Where do you think 401ks are invested? Retirement funds? Where does venture capital come from? And that money creates jobs and grows the pie. :blink:
Do remove the word "Ignorant" from your quote. You've added it into the portion that is meant to indicate what I said verbatim, and the addition is insulting, if your intent is to call me ignorant, than do so have the balls to say it outright in your own words or leave it out like an adult. Edit: Alternatively, if it's merely a selection error add the "... ..." to the quote to illustrate there's been a cut.

If you honestly don't see the Irony of the rich investing IN THE RICH then I don't know what to tell you. The Stock Market keeps the economy appearing healthy, and shit, as a country I suppose I can't find any decent argument that it doesn't facilitate a healthy enough economic circuit in its way, but the stock market's benefits to the average American are minimal. Most American's gain little to no direct benefit whatsoever from the buying and trading of stocks, and the indirect benefit is worth a lot less than the big wigs like to think.

It's rich folk trying to get richer. If you want the proof just look at how all the big wigs behaved when the Gamestop thing got going. So many rich assholes crying foul that a few of the peasantry figured out how to make it work for them for a change. Give a billionaire a thousand dollars and he'll either put it in his bank account to rot, or invest it into the cloud of corporate gains in the hope to make it into two thousand dollars for themselves. Give a thousand dollars to an impoverished family, and they 'invest' it directly into circulation by keeping their kids fed.
Last edited by Femina 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Part of the problem as I see it is that it has become increasingly in vogue in some quarters to vilify or denigrate achievement, to assume one person has achieved great things at the expense of others. This "oh, he must have cut corners or broken the law, or achieved his success by nefarious means". A lot of that is pure envy and jealousy in my view. I started to see this trend in the 80's. I think a lot of the reasons why some folks are poor is that they unfortunately have not identified their true calling in life and found a way to make money at it. It happened to me. I graduated college with a degree but I didn't know what to do with that degree when I graduated so I worked at a mediocre job that I didn't really did not enjoy. About 5 years ago I tried to find other lines of work and failed at a couple things (those folks who are electricians are wicked smaat as they would say in my neck of the woods in Boston) until I inadvertently found my calling at a job I really love and am somewhat good at that pays well and has benefits. Now even at my lowest moments at my crappy, low paying job I didn't get mad at the Jeff Bezos's of the world, or the government for not confiscating more of rich people's money in some Robin Hood scheme, I, bushwackerbob, I alone am responsible for my lot in life, for the life choices I have made that have put me down on this path, for my career choices, and how that has affected my bank accounts, my housing, my entire life. That's on me. People everyday pick themselves off the floor, challenge themselves, set goals and go about trying to achieve them without any help from any nanny state government. If a dummy like me can figure out how to make a good or living wage in this economy, than it can be done.
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bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
Part of the problem as I see it is that it has become increasingly in vogue in some quarters to vilify or denigrate achievement, to assume one person has achieved great things at the expense of others. This "oh, he must have cut corners or broken the law, or achieved his success by nefarious means". A lot of that is pure envy and jealousy in my view. I started to see this trend in the 80's. I think a lot of the reasons why some folks are poor is that they unfortunately have not identified their true calling in life and found a way to make money at it. It happened to me. I graduated college with a degree but I didn't know what to do with that degree when I graduated so I worked at a mediocre job that I didn't really did not enjoy. About 5 years ago I tried to find other lines of work and failed at a couple things (those folks who are electricians are wicked smaat as they would say in my neck of the woods in Boston) until I inadvertently found my calling at a job I really love and am somewhat good at that pays well and has benefits. Now even at my lowest moments at my crappy, low paying job I didn't get mad at the Jeff Bezos's of the world, or the government for not confiscating more of rich people's money in some Robin Hood scheme, I, bushwackerbob, I alone am responsible for my lot in life, for the life choices I have made that have put me down on this path, for my career choices, and how that has affected my bank accounts, my housing, my entire life. That's on me. People everyday pick themselves off the floor, challenge themselves, set goals and go about trying to achieve them without any help from any nanny state government. If a dummy like me can figure out how to make a good or living wage in this economy, than it can be done.
It's not a coincidence that the kind of discourse of which you speak started in the 1980s. The 1980s was when Reaganite economic policies began wildly to favour the wealthy, and there was thunderous economic growth... which didn't favour a lot of people on the lower end of the pile.

We are, of course, all responsible for our own destinies. We all have the power to strive, or not to strive. But I think there is an insufficient distinction between the perspectives of when you're talking about economic policy. And I think this distinction fails to be made by basically anyone who talks about this: left wing, right wing, whatever, so people misinterpret each other, and conflate the perspectives. What I mean by this is as follows:

Let's say I'm talking to a friend. My friend has become a drug addict, and lost his job. He has job opportunities, or opportunities to apply for government retraining programmes, or whatever. But he doesn't. When talking to him, trying to get him to see how self-destructive his life choices are, I'm obviously talking about the particulars of him and his life. It is absolutely within his free will to get himself out of his situation if he tries really, REALLY hard. And he should. If he then started excusing himself by blaming the depressed economy or wider social ills or whatever, that would not be very convincing, or germane. (Obviously it would be different if, like, he just COULDN'T get a job no matter how hard he tried because of an economic disaster or something).

But let's say I'm a government official. I have within my power the ability to create certain economic conditions that will massively increase job growth, at the expanse of heavily taxing the very wealthy. Let's imagine a fellow official says to me "This is unfair. You're taking money away from people who earned it. The economy isn't so devastated that it's IMPOSSIBLE for people to find work. People are being lazy, and making poor life choices. They need to have better upbringings and to pull themselves up." At THIS level, the level of policy, where you're not dealing with individuals but with vast aggregates of individuals, talking about people's individual characters and so on is largely pointless - just as pointless as pointing to wider economic trends with my drug addict friend on a personal level.

Idleness, incompetence, and failure are part of the human condition. It is not unreasonable for a person at the political level to say "taking these into account, what can we do to make it EASIER for people to make the right kinds of decisions, to offset against idleness (etc)?" It is no less reasonable to say to an individual "okay yes conditions are shit, but you do have responsibility for your own life. What can YOU do?" Conflation between these two things, or thinking that they're somehow incompatible, makes left-wing people think the classical right are heartless bastards, and it makes the right think the left are namby-pamby wimps.
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bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
Part of the problem as I see it is that it has become increasingly in vogue in some quarters to vilify or denigrate achievement, to assume one person has achieved great things at the expense of others. This "oh, he must have cut corners or broken the law, or achieved his success by nefarious means". A lot of that is pure envy and jealousy in my view. I started to see this trend in the 80's. I think a lot of the reasons why some folks are poor is that they unfortunately have not identified their true calling in life and found a way to make money at it. It happened to me. I graduated college with a degree but I didn't know what to do with that degree when I graduated so I worked at a mediocre job that I didn't really did not enjoy. About 5 years ago I tried to find other lines of work and failed at a couple things (those folks who are electricians are wicked smaat as they would say in my neck of the woods in Boston) until I inadvertently found my calling at a job I really love and am somewhat good at that pays well and has benefits. Now even at my lowest moments at my crappy, low paying job I didn't get mad at the Jeff Bezos's of the world, or the government for not confiscating more of rich people's money in some Robin Hood scheme, I, bushwackerbob, I alone am responsible for my lot in life, for the life choices I have made that have put me down on this path, for my career choices, and how that has affected my bank accounts, my housing, my entire life. That's on me. People everyday pick themselves off the floor, challenge themselves, set goals and go about trying to achieve them without any help from any nanny state government. If a dummy like me can figure out how to make a good or living wage in this economy, than it can be done.
I'm certainly not in any mode trying to take anybodies agency away from their involvement in their own livlihoods and standing. We always have choices we can make that have direct consequence and benefit to ourselves. All that I am attempting to express above is that other people's actions can and do impact you AS WELL, can and do force you into narrower options, or in extreme cases can take away your options entirely. I'm happy for you that you found your slot in the cogs of of America to make a happy life for yourself... I simply do not subscribe to the idea that since some people manage this, that everyone else had the same opportunity to do so. Other peoples actions DO affect you, whether you want them to or not, and significantly powerful entities have greater weight with which to affect you more powerfully to the point that they can directly impact your ability to make the best choices for yourself and to close off avenues of success for you that you, in fact, have NO control over. Now, do lazy people exist, sure. Do hard introverts with mental handicaps that prevent them from socializing properly and entering into the machine as it is exist? Sure, and it can be argued perfectly well that these people's inability to enter the framework is an unfortunate reality but which can't necessitate hardcore changes. America has a GROWING poor and impoverished populace of human beings working sometimes as many as three jobs. That's not lazy, its not social disorders preventing them from succeeding, its the system failing to provide them fair recompense for their effort. It's the system TAKING AWAY their ability to make their own success. It happens, and its happening more and more often as evidenced by the growing number of poor, and the declining number of middle class families.

So fine, lets take a step back here, lets assume the rich aren't directly involved even for the sake of argument, and lets focus on clearing this up.

Not everyone is in charge of their destinies in America. That has always been the dream. For some it is a reality, but the idea that it is universally true, is a fantasy, and in order to have any further discussion I guess that I need you to acknowledge that. Yes, you CAN make your own destiny with a decent helping of luck, effort and help, but it is not a universal truth available to everyone. I'm not speaking about race, or gender, I'm speaking about the mean average. I'm speaking about the average American and how the Average American continues to slide further into the poverty camp each and every day. The Corona Virus, merely by example, is no underlying cause of the problems in America, but it certainly exacerbated them into a flurry. More people are losing their homes than ever before, people who lost their ability to go to work and got evicted before we stopped evicting people in this crisis. They had jobs, they had work, they lived as comfortably as a poor family could, they didn't fail to make a personal savings enough in preparation for this disaster, they were never provided enough money to MAKE a savings to begin with.

We do NOT all make our own success. That is a fantasy. It's an absolutist garbage pile of a statement made insincerely and in bad faith at worst, thoughtless at best.
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Damselbinder wrote:
3 years ago
You have a fundamental non-understanding of economics if you think that 'hand outs' are flushing money down a toilet. Don't people given hand outs spend them? It stimulates the economy.
No it does not. Irresponsible expenditure of money is the equivalent of pollution. And simply spending money spends future money today. Worse when we print it and then stick that debt on future generations. The money is far better used to invest in business and growth and not wasted on government taxation that is used to wage wars or fund bad ideas.

If I liquidate my retirement today and buy a bunch of toys I may have kept some workers in jobs but then I have nothing for the future. And my money in a 401k IS working... its funding businesses and growth. It doesn't sit in a mattress.
Damselbinder

Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Damselbinder wrote:
3 years ago
You have a fundamental non-understanding of economics if you think that 'hand outs' are flushing money down a toilet. Don't people given hand outs spend them? It stimulates the economy.
No it does not. Irresponsible expenditure of money is the equivalent of pollution. And simply spending money spends future money today. Worse when we print it and then stick that debt on future generations. The money is far better used to invest in business and growth and not wasted on government taxation that is used to wage wars or fund bad ideas.

If I liquidate my retirement today and buy a bunch of toys I may have kept some workers in jobs but then I have nothing for the future. And my money in a 401k IS working... its funding businesses and growth. It doesn't sit in a mattress.
Stimulus cheques help people clear debts. Clearing debts means they have more money to spend on other things. Growing business means nothing if there are no customers.
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Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Damselbinder wrote:
3 years ago
You have a fundamental non-understanding of economics if you think that 'hand outs' are flushing money down a toilet. Don't people given hand outs spend them? It stimulates the economy.
No it does not. Irresponsible expenditure of money is the equivalent of pollution. And simply spending money spends future money today. Worse when we print it and then stick that debt on future generations. The money is far better used to invest in business and growth and not wasted on government taxation that is used to wage wars or fund bad ideas.

If I liquidate my retirement today and buy a bunch of toys I may have kept some workers in jobs but then I have nothing for the future. And my money in a 401k IS working... its funding businesses and growth. It doesn't sit in a mattress.
INVESTING money is the same thing as spending money. You're just spending it on stocks that you may later sell for profit (or at a LOSS.) Spending money on a renewable resource, like food, is essentially the same thing TO THE ECONOMY. But you're at least hitting on some things of note here. Spending money on FOOD, is a short term investment in your survival that has zero impact on your savings. It stimulates the economy, but as you devise, does not act as an investment to your retirement. Similarly, investing in business MAY be an investment in your retirement, but has zero impact on your immediate survival. The IMMEDIATE survival of many Americans right now is prohibiting them from making any long term investments.

Many people today are too poor to spend money on investments, because they have to spend everything they earn on the IMMEDIATE investment of not starving to death. The Stock Market doesn't have ANY benefit to these people. When you 'buy a toy' you buy it FROM a business, whom themselves will then turn around and buy stock with it doing double duty. To the economy, buying food or a toy, is exactly the same thing as buying stock, you just ordinarily can't turn around and resell it later for potential profits (you know unless the toy becomes a collectible or something), but that's a personal drop off, not an economic one.

There's no danger in giving people money to spend in a crisis, that its going to make money disappear. The Average American is too poor and has to much they owe or need to stuff a mattress with dollar bills like grandma and even when one DOES, the most they can possibly stuff the mattress usually numbers in the thousands and measures as a speck of dust to a billionaires offshore mattress. Most of the money in these stimulus packages are going all but instantly back into circulation, buying things from corporations who then send it back into the stock market lock box, scratching the economic itch twice over.
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Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Damselbinder wrote:
3 years ago
You have a fundamental non-understanding of economics if you think that 'hand outs' are flushing money down a toilet. Don't people given hand outs spend them? It stimulates the economy.
No it does not. Irresponsible expenditure of money is the equivalent of pollution. And simply spending money spends future money today. Worse when we print it and then stick that debt on future generations. The money is far better used to invest in business and growth and not wasted on government taxation that is used to wage wars or fund bad ideas.

If I liquidate my retirement today and buy a bunch of toys I may have kept some workers in jobs but then I have nothing for the future. And my money in a 401k IS working... its funding businesses and growth. It doesn't sit in a mattress.
Does that apply to state handouts/bailouts to huge corporations and financial services? I mean that's quite obviously socialism for the rich. Particularly when the directors continue to award themselves huge bonuses or engage in stock buybacks, essentially funneling public money straight into the pockets of billionaires.
"A brass unicorn has been catapulted across a London street and impaled an eminent surgeon. Words fail me, gentlemen."
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Edit: Nevermind. I take it back.
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it's Xmas Activism! :christmas:

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it's Dark Haired Women Activism!

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Femina wrote:
3 years ago
bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
Part of the problem as I see it is that it has become increasingly in vogue in some quarters to vilify or denigrate achievement, to assume one person has achieved great things at the expense of others. This "oh, he must have cut corners or broken the law, or achieved his success by nefarious means". A lot of that is pure envy and jealousy in my view. I started to see this trend in the 80's. I think a lot of the reasons why some folks are poor is that they unfortunately have not identified their true calling in life and found a way to make money at it. It happened to me. I graduated college with a degree but I didn't know what to do with that degree when I graduated so I worked at a mediocre job that I didn't really did not enjoy. About 5 years ago I tried to find other lines of work and failed at a couple things (those folks who are electricians are wicked smaat as they would say in my neck of the woods in Boston) until I inadvertently found my calling at a job I really love and am somewhat good at that pays well and has benefits. Now even at my lowest moments at my crappy, low paying job I didn't get mad at the Jeff Bezos's of the world, or the government for not confiscating more of rich people's money in some Robin Hood scheme, I, bushwackerbob, I alone am responsible for my lot in life, for the life choices I have made that have put me down on this path, for my career choices, and how that has affected my bank accounts, my housing, my entire life. That's on me. People everyday pick themselves off the floor, challenge themselves, set goals and go about trying to achieve them without any help from any nanny state government. If a dummy like me can figure out how to make a good or living wage in this economy, than it can be done.
I'm certainly not in any mode trying to take anybodies agency away from their involvement in their own livlihoods and standing. We always have choices we can make that have direct consequence and benefit to ourselves. All that I am attempting to express above is that other people's actions can and do impact you AS WELL, can and do force you into narrower options, or in extreme cases can take away your options entirely. I'm happy for you that you found your slot in the cogs of of America to make a happy life for yourself... I simply do not subscribe to the idea that since some people manage this, that everyone else had the same opportunity to do so. Other peoples actions DO affect you, whether you want them to or not, and significantly powerful entities have greater weight with which to affect you more powerfully to the point that they can directly impact your ability to make the best choices for yourself and to close off avenues of success for you that you, in fact, have NO control over. Now, do lazy people exist, sure. Do hard introverts with mental handicaps that prevent them from socializing properly and entering into the machine as it is exist? Sure, and it can be argued perfectly well that these people's inability to enter the framework is an unfortunate reality but which can't necessitate hardcore changes. America has a GROWING poor and impoverished populace of human beings working sometimes as many as three jobs. That's not lazy, its not social disorders preventing them from succeeding, its the system failing to provide them fair recompense for their effort. It's the system TAKING AWAY their ability to make their own success. It happens, and its happening more and more often as evidenced by the growing number of poor, and the declining number of middle class families.

So fine, lets take a step back here, lets assume the rich aren't directly involved even for the sake of argument, and lets focus on clearing this up.

Not everyone is in charge of their destinies in America. That has always been the dream. For some it is a reality, but the idea that it is universally true, is a fantasy, and in order to have any further discussion I guess that I need you to acknowledge that. Yes, you CAN make your own destiny with a decent helping of luck, effort and help, but it is not a universal truth available to everyone. I'm not speaking about race, or gender, I'm speaking about the mean average. I'm speaking about the average American and how the Average American continues to slide further into the poverty camp each and every day. The Corona Virus, merely by example, is no underlying cause of the problems in America, but it certainly exacerbated them into a flurry. More people are losing their homes than ever before, people who lost their ability to go to work and got evicted before we stopped evicting people in this crisis. They had jobs, they had work, they lived as comfortably as a poor family could, they didn't fail to make a personal savings enough in preparation for this disaster, they were never provided enough money to MAKE a savings to begin with.

We do NOT all make our own success. That is a fantasy. It's an absolutist garbage pile of a statement made insincerely and in bad faith at worst, thoughtless at best.
I think everybody has the opportunity to be in charge of their own destinies, but some folks sabotage themselves with unwise life choices and therefore inhibit their chances for success. For some folks like me that are not self starter types, they lack ambition and drive, that if there is not an Oz at the end of the yellow brick road, if they can't see that light at the end of the tunnel, then they are unwilling to make that journey towards bettering their lot in life. That is not the fault of Jeff Bezos or the federal government. The paralyzing fear of failure and not being able to rise to the challenge of attaining one's goals is a huge reason in my view some folks don't have the courage or confidence to try and improve their lot with something outside their frame of reference or comfort zone.
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Femina
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bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
I think everybody has the opportunity to be in charge of their own destinies, but some folks sabotage themselves with unwise life choices and therefore inhibit their chances for success. For some folks like me that are not self starter types, they lack ambition and drive, that if there is not an Oz at the end of the yellow brick road, if they can't see that light at the end of the tunnel, then they are unwilling to make that journey towards bettering their lot in life. That is not the fault of Jeff Bezos or the federal government. The paralyzing fear of failure and not being able to rise to the challenge of attaining one's goals is a huge reason in my view some folks don't have the courage or confidence to try and improve their lot with something outside their frame of reference or comfort zone.
I do not discount the truth of individuals who fail to make something of themselves for one reason or another. I expressed that there are people who are lazy, there are people who have social disorders, there are people society has made nihilistic to the point of giving up. Those people definitely exist, but that doesn't mean I could turn around and say 'therefore EVERYONE who fails is responsible for their own failure.' That's what Mr. X is insinuating when he says 'Everyone makes their own success' as used in this topic. It's not the same thing as giving a pep talk to a bunch of bright eyed students who want to hear something uplifting, It's INVALIDATING the people who get screwed over as just dumb ol' losers who couldn't get it together, and WORSE it absolves anyone who feels like making their own success by plowing throw and demolishing another persons avenues. It's a free pass to be a shit heel because it means that no matter how immoral someone behaves, no matter how much they lie, cheat and steal, if anyone else fails in the fallout of the quest its only because they didn't want it as much as the shitheel did.

It's basically objectivism
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Femina wrote:
3 years ago
bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
I think everybody has the opportunity to be in charge of their own destinies, but some folks sabotage themselves with unwise life choices and therefore inhibit their chances for success. For some folks like me that are not self starter types, they lack ambition and drive, that if there is not an Oz at the end of the yellow brick road, if they can't see that light at the end of the tunnel, then they are unwilling to make that journey towards bettering their lot in life. That is not the fault of Jeff Bezos or the federal government. The paralyzing fear of failure and not being able to rise to the challenge of attaining one's goals is a huge reason in my view some folks don't have the courage or confidence to try and improve their lot with something outside their frame of reference or comfort zone.
I do not discount the truth of individuals who fail to make something of themselves for one reason or another. I expressed that there are people who are lazy, there are people who have social disorders, there are people society has made nihilistic to the point of giving up. Those people definitely exist, but that doesn't mean I could turn around and say 'therefore EVERYONE who fails is responsible for their own failure.' That's what Mr. X is insinuating when he says 'Everyone makes their own success' as used in this topic. It's not the same thing as giving a pep talk to a bunch of bright eyed students who want to hear something uplifting, It's INVALIDATING the people who get screwed over as just dumb ol' losers who couldn't get it together, and WORSE it absolves anyone who feels like making their own success by plowing throw and demolishing another persons avenues. It's a free pass to be a shit heel because it means that no matter how immoral someone behaves, no matter how much they lie, cheat and steal, if anyone else fails in the fallout of the quest its only because they didn't want it as much as the shitheel did.

It's basically objectivism
Interesting take. Would you mind giving me a few examples of folks who get screwed over?
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'therefore EVERYONE who fails is responsible for their own failure.' That's what Mr. X is insinuating
Yes because that's the only logical path. If you blame others you put the power in their hands and you stand still. You always ask "what could I have done", "How could I have avoided this", "what can I do better next time". Sure there are somethings that harm or interfere in your life but like the wind or fate or wild animals, you can't blame them. You act. And the US is not some shit hole country. Plenty of people in all sorts of groups succeed.

You have to blame yourself since that is the only path of power. Any other path gives power to someone else.
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