Living in the shadow of the corona virus

[tallyho]

How many deaths has Canada had Bert?
UK at around 60,000 Wales at about 3000 of tbose

[Bert]

Almost 14,000 deaths. Canada's population is about 38 million.

[tallyho]

Grim news all over isn't it. Maybe if Trudeau and Johnson played more golf, that might help.

[tallyho]

Sadly lost a family member to Covid this morning. Reckon she caught it in hospital when she was in for cancer treatment.


Wear a mask people

(and please don't bother with any messages of condolence. She wasn't a nice woman so I am not in the slightest bit upset, but I still wouldn't wish it on anybody)

[DrDominator9]

Condolences regardless. As my father used to say, "Nobody is totally useless. They can always be used as a bad example."

[Mr. X]

Some interesting data on Wales 2009 swine flu pandemic.
http://www.wales.nhs.uk/sites3/page.cfm ... &pid=50294

Death rates were lower but cases are about the same as today's cases.

https://public.tableau.com/profile/publ ... inesummary

Point being is examining of past trends can put current trends into perspective.

[tallyho]

Thanks I didn't even know we had had incidents here then. Don't recall a single broadcast about it.
As an asthmatic I get offered a free flu jab each winter but I only just started accepting them last 2 years as my mum had a very bad allergic reaction to it, which had put me off for decades, so I would have refused it back then. If you had asked me what year the H1N1 pandemic hit Wales I would have said I don't know as we didn't have any cases as far as I lnow.

[Mr. X]

Thanks I didn't even know we had had incidents here then. Don't recall a single broadcast about it.

Exactly! A lot of people did not know 2009 was a pandemic but media did not hype that up as one.

BTW here's a 2009 prediction
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dire-predi ... us-future/

2 billion infections over the course of the pandemic is "a reasonable ballpark to be looking at."

https://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/08/24/u ... index.html
90,000 US death claims.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/ ... g-helpline
predicting 65,00o in Britain alone could die of Swine Flu.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 104633.htm

The Council of Europe said US$18 billion was wasted, and branded WHO's actions "one of the greatest medical scandals of the century." The event revealed weaknesses in the world's current configuration of planning for and responding to pandemic influenza, according to Dr Forster.

Neil Ferguson absurd predictions.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/six ... d-be-asked

In 2005, Ferguson said that up to 200 million people could be killed from bird flu.

So do you understand why some people like me are skeptical about covid claims? Did this happen? I don't think so.
And were people forced to wear masks? No. Were businesses shut down? No.

[Damselbinder]

Thanks I didn't even know we had had incidents here then. Don't recall a single broadcast about it.

Exactly! A lot of people did not know 2009 was a pandemic but media did not hype that up as one.

BTW here's a 2009 prediction
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dire-predi ... us-future/

2 billion infections over the course of the pandemic is "a reasonable ballpark to be looking at."

https://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/08/24/u ... index.html
90,000 US death claims.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/ ... g-helpline
predicting 65,00o in Britain alone could die of Swine Flu.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 104633.htm

The Council of Europe said US$18 billion was wasted, and branded WHO's actions "one of the greatest medical scandals of the century." The event revealed weaknesses in the world's current configuration of planning for and responding to pandemic influenza, according to Dr Forster.

Neil Ferguson absurd predictions.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/six ... d-be-asked

In 2005, Ferguson said that up to 200 million people could be killed from bird flu.

So do you understand why some people like me are skeptical about covid claims? Did this happen? I don't think so.
And were people forced to wear masks? No. Were businesses shut down? No.

A month into the pandemic any such scepticism became completely unwarranted, as well you know. I was sceptical at first for precisely these reasons, but I gave way to the overwhelming evidence. 67,000 people have died of the disease in the UK alone. The swine-flu outbreak is not even remotely comparable in scale.

[tallyho]

I think with the flu pandemics it was already felt we had a vaccination program in place and were pretty much doing all we could in UK at least anyway. This time it was a totally unknown quantity. We didn't know if it was seasonal or how virulent it was likely to be. We weren't even 100% certain how it was spread initially, whether it was airborne, direct physical contact or both.
With over a million dead world wide and it claiming 3000 plus of your countrymen a day and over 17million infected and 316,000 dead I don't think you could call it overhyped

[Mr. X]

A month into the pandemic any such scepticism became completely unwarranted, as well you know. I was sceptical at first for precisely these reasons, but I gave way to the overwhelming evidence. 67,000 people have died of the disease in the UK alone. The swine-flu outbreak is not even remotely comparable in scale.

I'm not skeptical of the numbers, I'm skeptical about the hyperbole and over reactions.

[Damselbinder]

Yes. In light of the numbers, it's not hyperbole.

[bushwackerbob]

We got another COVID hypocrite offender, and this time you might have to classify her as a Trumper, although she did serve under Obama as well. Dr. Deborah Birx, of the White House Coronavirus Task Force advised people not to travel for the Thanksgiving holiday, to be "restrictive and selective about the way they pass the holiday time" and not see folks in their immediate household here in the U.S, and then the day after Thanksgiving, she travels to Delaware to spend time with her husband, daughter, son-in law, and 2 grandchildren. Hypocrites. Do as I say and not as I do. One set of rules for thee, and one set of rules for you and me. There is definitely a credibility issue here in the U.S as to some of our leaders not practicing what they preach.

[tallyho]

We have had a lot of that here. 2 months ago an MP had a test, travelled down from Scotland to Westminster BEFORE she had the result, and then when found out she had it travelled BACK 600 miles on the train ffs. And the irony being the stupid cow came down for a vote on Covid measures.

Got no time for Birx since she just sat in silence when the Donald is spouting shit about injecting disinfectant into the body..

326 dead in UK yesterday, 67001 dead in total, 35,000 daily infections.

France has closed the channel to Freight traffic and cars I believe due to the new strain in UK

[bushwackerbob]

A lot of crap that has nothing to do with COVID-19 relief efforts is in this new U.S stimulus package. How can anyone with a good conscience vote for this thing? In my mind, a lot of this stuff is taking advantage of the pain and untold suffering that this pandemic has caused in order to pay for bullshit that has almost entirely nothing to do with a COVID-19 stimulus package. That bill is disgraceful. I urge anyone who is interested at whom the beneficiaries of this fraudulent COVID-19 relief bill to check it out.

[DrDominator9]

Over 5,000 pages to this bill that the House and Senate only had 5 hours to review. Anybody here capable of reading 1,000 pages an hour? Didn't think so. So, yes, all too much opportunity to slip a lot past people in this bill with all the billions going out the door. Feels like congress is just checking the terms and conditions agreement box and hoping we're not on the receiving end of some nefarious bullshit. I'm not that naive. I'm not saying that relief wasn't needed, mind you. It was, and months ago, but for it to be taken down to this last minute craziness because of power plays on both sides of the aisle while millions of American futures and lives hung in the balance is just this side of criminal.

[Mr. X]

Over 5,000 pages to this bill that the House and Senate only had 5 hours to review. Anybody here capable of reading 1,000 pages an hour? Didn't think so. So, yes, all too much opportunity to slip a lot past people in this bill with all the billions going out the door. Feels like congress is just checking the terms and conditions agreement box and hoping we're not on the receiving end of some nefarious bullshit. I'm not that naive. I'm not saying that relief wasn't needed, mind you. It was, and months ago, but for it to be taken down to this last minute craziness because of power plays on both sides of the aisle while millions of American futures and lives hung in the balance is just this side of criminal.

This is why the phrase "never let a good crisis go to waste" should always be on your mind. This is how politics ALWAYS does things. There maybe a crisis but this is like putting carpet baggers in charge of it. And the repubs are disgusting for lambasting Obama for all that spending then they broke Obama's spending records.

[bushwackerbob]

Under this COVID-19 relief bill:
Kennedy Center $26,400,000
Smithsonian $1,000,000,000
National Art Gallery $154,000,000
National Arts and Humanities $167,000,000
Woodrow Wilson Center $74,000,000
plus exorbitant sums paid to countries such as Egypt, Sudan, Ukraine, Israel, Nepal, Burma, Cambodia, Pakistan, and others in a relief package designed to help Americans. And this is only the bullshit that folks have been able to find out so far. Does it really take over 5,000 pages to give folks $600 Dr. D? This is the essence of the swamp. If this is the very best our politicians can do then that is a very sad commentary on the level of competency and integrity of our elected officials of both parties. A pox on all of their houses. I suspect the bill is over 5,000 pages because we have some scumbags in Washington who hoped to hide money in a 5,000 page bill for their pet projects in a bill ostensibly created to help those affected by this terrible pandemic, hoping their pork barrel spending favorites would not see the light of day, at least until the bill was passed when it would be too late. This was supposed to be a COVID-19 relief bill to help Americans, not a slush fund where politicians could flush money down the drain and funnel it to their pet projects.

[Dazzle1]

A lot of crap that has nothing to do with COVID-19 relief efforts is in this new U.S stimulus package. How can anyone with a good conscience vote for this thing? In my mind, a lot of this stuff is taking advantage of the pain and untold suffering that this pandemic has caused in order to pay for bullshit that has almost entirely nothing to do with a COVID-19 stimulus package. That bill is disgraceful. I urge anyone who is interested at whom the beneficiaries of this fraudulent COVID-19 relief bill to check it out.

The Senate had a Covid only relief bill proposed months ago. As far as the money drain the pension fund for every current and former legislator and staff, on the federal and local level.

[five_red]

Under this COVID-19 relief bill:
Kennedy Center $26,400,000
Smithsonian $1,000,000,000
National Art Gallery $154,000,000
National Arts and Humanities $167,000,000
Woodrow Wilson Center $74,000,000
plus exorbitant sums paid to countries such as Egypt, Sudan, Ukraine, Israel, Nepal, Burma, Cambodia, Pakistan, and others in a relief package designed to help Americans. And this is only the bullshit that folks have been able to find out so far. Does it really take over 5,000 pages to give folks $600 Dr. D? This is the essence of the swamp. If this is the very best our politicians can do then that is a very sad commentary on the level of competency and integrity of our elected officials of both parties. A pox on all of their houses. I suspect the bill is over 5,000 pages because we have some scumbags in Washington who hoped to hide money in a 5,000 page bill for their pet projects in a bill ostensibly created to help those affected by this terrible pandemic, hoping their pork barrel spending favorites would not see the light of day, at least until the bill was passed when it would be too late. This was supposed to be a COVID-19 relief bill to help Americans, not a slush fund where politicians could flush money down the drain and funnel it to their pet projects.

The Covid 19 relief package was passed as part of a Christmas tree bill, which is a Washington tradition that rounds up a miscellaneous collection of tax breaks, law repeals, military and government funding approvals, etc. etc. into one single end-of-year package. It is basically federal government's way of clearing up unfinished business before the new year.

The funding listed has nothing to do with Covid-19, it just happens to be included in the same legislative tool used by Congress to get the Covid-19 funding through. The Smithsonian funding, for example, allows them to explore the building of two new museums that Republicans and some Democrats had been trying to seek funded for for some time before the current pandemic (and btw the actual figure is unlikely to be anything like the $1,000,000,000 number quoted.)

Because Congress delayed passing a specific bill for Covid-19 relief for so long, the funding needed to be rolled into the traditional end-of-year catchall legislation... And, of course, right wing news outlets can then rant that the whole thing is intended to be funding for Covid-19, brimming over with righteous indignation.

R5

[tallyho]

_20201222_110155.JPG (53 KiB) Viewed 3114 times

Where's that face-palm emoji?

[tallyho]

BBC is reporting first Covid cases in Antarctica.

[Bert]

The Covid 19 relief package was passed as part of a Christmas tree bill, which is a Washington tradition that rounds up a miscellaneous collection of tax breaks, law repeals, military and government funding approvals, etc. etc. into one single end-of-year package. It is basically federal government's way of clearing up unfinished business before the new year.

The funding listed has nothing to do with Covid-19, it just happens to be included in the same legislative tool used by Congress to get the Covid-19 funding through. The Smithsonian funding, for example, allows them to explore the building of two new museums that Republicans and some Democrats had been trying to seek funded for for some time before the current pandemic (and btw the actual figure is unlikely to be anything like the $1,000,000,000 number quoted.)

Because Congress delayed passing a specific bill for Covid-19 relief for so long, the funding needed to be rolled into the traditional end-of-year catchall legislation... And, of course, right wing news outlets can then rant that the whole thing is intended to be funding for Covid-19, brimming over with righteous indignation.

R5

I imagine many museums around the country are also in dire financial straights after a year of drastically reduced revenue. I have a hard time believing Americans don't want the repositories of their history supported with some government money. The Smithsonian alone employs over six thousand people. At that point it becomes a matter of prioritizing. Aid for states and municipalities was a non-starter because Republicans refused. Museums made the list.

[Dazzle1]

The Covid 19 relief package was passed as part of a Christmas tree bill, which is a Washington tradition that rounds up a miscellaneous collection of tax breaks, law repeals, military and government funding approvals, etc. etc. into one single end-of-year package. It is basically federal government's way of clearing up unfinished business before the new year.

The funding listed has nothing to do with Covid-19, it just happens to be included in the same legislative tool used by Congress to get the Covid-19 funding through. The Smithsonian funding, for example, allows them to explore the building of two new museums that Republicans and some Democrats had been trying to seek funded for for some time before the current pandemic (and btw the actual figure is unlikely to be anything like the $1,000,000,000 number quoted.)

Because Congress delayed passing a specific bill for Covid-19 relief for so long, the funding needed to be rolled into the traditional end-of-year catchall legislation... And, of course, right wing news outlets can then rant that the whole thing is intended to be funding for Covid-19, brimming over with righteous indignation.

R5

I imagine many museums around the country are also in dire financial straights after a year of drastically reduced revenue. I have a hard time believing Americans don't want the repositories of their history supported with some government money. The Smithsonian alone employs over six thousand people. At that point it becomes a matter of prioritizing. Aid for states and municipalities was a non-starter because Republicans refused. Museums made the list.

Aid for state and cities were going to pay for pensions and salaries of non essential people. Republicans and independents object to fund Blue states generous pensions.

Why are the Palestinian terrorists being given any money?

[five_red]

Aid for state and cities were going to pay for pensions and salaries of non essential people. Republicans and independents object to fund Blue states generous pensions.

Why are the Palestinian terrorists being given any money?

So what you're basically suggesting here is that the pension plans of vast numbers of state employees change substantially every time there's a switch in control from one party to another, or are in some way directly and significantly influenced by a weakening or strengthening in a particular party's fortunes within a given parliamentary session? Hmm... I think you'll find that the terms and conditions of state employee contracts, including their pensions, are decided over a much longer term than just the immediate concerns of how many seats a given party happens to have in a given year in a given state parliment.

If people could divorce themselves from the rabid cravings of certain web sites and news networks for just one moment, it would be possible to go look up exactly what provisions the CARES act actually made for government bodies. And you can see immediately that it is pretty darn difficult, given the three clauses that determine where the funding can be used, for it to be used extensively (or indeed at all) for pensions. Some of it may have gone on paying for healthcare etc. for temporary workers taken on directly as part of the pandemic, but almost everyone who was already in a government post in March 2020 will have been costed in budgets set in 2019, so presumably are ruled out explicitly by the act. Likewise the clauses the act sets for government seem to make it impossible to pay off any pre-existing deficits, whether they be in pensions funds or other benefits shortfalls.

Now, if we flip over to the act's provision for small businesses, we can see that the act will pay up to eight weeks of payroll and benefits. So, yep, looks like businesses can use the money to cover pension costs.

Of course, if someone has specific details of how States are circumventing the CARES act rules (and no, a ten minute video of Tucker Carlson ranting about how AOC used $10m to fund abortions for homeless transgender kittens does not qualify) then I guess now would be a good time to post them so we can all be enlightened...

R5

[bushwackerbob]

Under this COVID-19 relief bill:
Kennedy Center $26,400,000
Smithsonian $1,000,000,000
National Art Gallery $154,000,000
National Arts and Humanities $167,000,000
Woodrow Wilson Center $74,000,000
plus exorbitant sums paid to countries such as Egypt, Sudan, Ukraine, Israel, Nepal, Burma, Cambodia, Pakistan, and others in a relief package designed to help Americans. And this is only the bullshit that folks have been able to find out so far. Does it really take over 5,000 pages to give folks $600 Dr. D? This is the essence of the swamp. If this is the very best our politicians can do then that is a very sad commentary on the level of competency and integrity of our elected officials of both parties. A pox on all of their houses. I suspect the bill is over 5,000 pages because we have some scumbags in Washington who hoped to hide money in a 5,000 page bill for their pet projects in a bill ostensibly created to help those affected by this terrible pandemic, hoping their pork barrel spending favorites would not see the light of day, at least until the bill was passed when it would be too late. This was supposed to be a COVID-19 relief bill to help Americans, not a slush fund where politicians could flush money down the drain and funnel it to their pet projects.

The Covid 19 relief package was passed as part of a Christmas tree bill, which is a Washington tradition that rounds up a miscellaneous collection of tax breaks, law repeals, military and government funding approvals, etc. etc. into one single end-of-year package. It is basically federal government's way of clearing up unfinished business before the new year.

The funding listed has nothing to do with Covid-19, it just happens to be included in the same legislative tool used by Congress to get the Covid-19 funding through. The Smithsonian funding, for example, allows them to explore the building of two new museums that Republicans and some Democrats had been trying to seek funded for for some time before the current pandemic (and btw the actual figure is unlikely to be anything like the $1,000,000,000 number quoted.)

Because Congress delayed passing a specific bill for Covid-19 relief for so long, the funding needed to be rolled into the traditional end-of-year catchall legislation... And, of course, right wing news outlets can then rant that the whole thing is intended to be funding for Covid-19, brimming over with righteous indignation.

R5

5 hours to read an over 5000 page bill. What is the rush? They do not want Congress or the American people to know what is actually in the bill because if they did there would not be support for the bill. How about this idea, pass a $600 COVID relief bill now, and then pass the bullshit Christmas-everycrookedpoliticiangetstheirpetprojectfundedbill passed in the next session. If these things have any merit getting funded, then let us actually take the time to review and shine a light under each handout or program instead of jamming it down Congresses throats in the last minute and putting this slush fund Christmas bill under the auspices of a COVID relief bill. Clearing up unfinished business? More like sweeping stuff under the rug, passing the bill, and asking questions later. That is no way to pass a bill or conduct government business, the American people deserve better from their elected officials. Why must the government make things more complicated than they need to be?

[five_red]

5 hours to read an over 5000 page bill. What is the rush? They do not want Congress or the American people to know what is actually in the bill because if they did there would not be support for the bill. How about this idea, pass a $600 COVID relief bill now, and then pass the bullshit Christmas-everycrookedpoliticiangetstheirpetprojectfundedbill passed in the next session. If these things have any merit getting funded, then let us actually take the time to review and shine a light under each handout or program instead of jamming it down Congresses throats in the last minute and putting this slush fund Christmas bill under the auspices of a COVID relief bill. Clearing up unfinished business? More like sweeping stuff under the rug, passing the bill, and asking questions later. That is no way to pass a bill or conduct government business, the American people deserve better from their elected officials. Why must the government make things more complicated than they need to be?

The vast majority of bills are passed by politicians who have never read them, and this has been true in Washington for (at least) decades. The PATRIOT Act was passed in double quick time after 9/11 without enough time for anyone, even the fastest speed reader, to read it. It wasn't the first, and it certainly wasn't the last. This is the norm.

The fact that the system isn't as great as we'd like it to be is not a sign of corruption or illegality, it is just a sign of a system that has become too dominated by scoring points over your opponents, at the expense of finding common ground to work together. Regardless of how long Congress had to read the bill, the fact remains that the Covid-19 relief itself did not include the non-Covid items listed.

On a side note, I find it amazing that many of the MAGA brigade appear to have been living in the Twilight Zone until recently. They're running around shouting "Oh my god did you know that people can vote using postal votes! , and the votes are counted using computers!! , and each state sets its own rules for elections!!! , and politicians just vote along party lines and don't read the bills put in front of them!!!!"... and the rest of us are looking in disbelief and thinking "Really? Really?! You've only just this moment realised all that?!"

(Of course, they've known about all that for years, it's just that it wasn't politically convenient to complain about it until six week ago.)

R5

[Dazzle1]

Aid for state and cities were going to pay for pensions and salaries of non essential people. Republicans and independents object to fund Blue states generous pensions.

Why are the Palestinian terrorists being given any money?

So what you're basically suggesting here is that the pension plans of vast numbers of state employees change substantially every time there's a switch in control from one party to another, or are in some way directly and significantly influenced by a weakening or strengthening in a particular party's fortunes within a given parliamentary session? Hmm... I think you'll find that the terms and conditions of state employee contracts, including their pensions, are decided over a much longer term than just the immediate concerns of how many seats a given party happens to have in a given year in a given state parliment.

If people could divorce themselves from the rabid cravings of certain web sites and news networks for just one moment, it would be possible to go look up exactly what provisions the CARES act actually made for government bodies. And you can see immediately that it is pretty darn difficult, given the three clauses that determine where the funding can be used, for it to be used extensively (or indeed at all) for pensions. Some of it may have gone on paying for healthcare etc. for temporary workers taken on directly as part of the pandemic, but almost everyone who was already in a government post in March 2020 will have been costed in budgets set in 2019, so presumably are ruled out explicitly by the act. Likewise the clauses the act sets for government seem to make it impossible to pay off any pre-existing deficits, whether they be in pensions funds or other benefits shortfalls.

Now, if we flip over to the act's provision for small businesses, we can see that the act will pay up to eight weeks of payroll and benefits. So, yep, looks like businesses can use the money to cover pension costs.

Of course, if someone has specific details of how States are circumventing the CARES act rules (and no, a ten minute video of Tucker Carlson ranting about how AOC used $10m to fund abortions for homeless transgender kittens does not qualify) then I guess now would be a good time to post them so we can all be enlightened...

R5

The state pension plans were never in the public interest. Thats why I have proposed draining it.

I do know that the Republicans rightly want none of the mney going to blue state pension obligations.

Give you example, the retiring Mass State house speak is getting a 135K pension. Why. He never earned his regular salary

that is why I am so pissed when life time elected officials tell us our businesses and lives don't matter

Sorry almost every business person is worth more than almost every member of congress

[Mr. X]

Oh my god did you know that people can vote using postal votes!

Actually that is new. We did have absentee ballots in the past but the person had to confirm identity to get one. Way different than nevada just mailing a bunch of ballots to anyone who owned a house in Nevada and people possibly double voting.

Also I would say the same about the left
"voting machines are rigged - Gore was cheated"
"voting machines are OK - Biden won"

The left have a serious case of Lustrum-nesia. Al Gore demanding recounts. Al Franken demanding recounts. And lets not forget 3 years of Russia conspiracy theory that somehow Putin rigged the US election for Trump which the left seems to now magically forget about.

[Damselbinder]

Oh my god did you know that people can vote using postal votes!

Actually that is new. We did have absentee ballots in the past but the person had to confirm identity to get one. Way different than nevada just mailing a bunch of ballots to anyone who owned a house in Nevada and people possibly double voting.

Also I would say the same about the left
"voting machines are rigged - Gore was cheated"
"voting machines are OK - Biden won"

The left have a serious case of Lustrum-nesia. Al Gore demanding recounts. Al Franken demanding recounts. And lets not forget 3 years of Russia conspiracy theory that somehow Putin rigged the US election for Trump which the left seems to now magically forget about.

Russia's involvement in the 2016 election was not a conspiracy theory. There is a difference between saying "it was rigged" (no proof) and "there is tangible evidence that Russia tried to influence the election" (undeniable). And also, voting machines have been used in every election since then as well. So when Bush won his second term, and when Trump won in 2016, no-one was complaining about them on either side. I don't recall right-wingers making a fuss about them when Obama won his two terms either. While I recall a little fussing about certain voting machines being unclear (that is, alleging incompetence rather than conspiracy), I seem to recall people had a rather bigger reason for thinking Gore ought to have won in 2000. Or perhaps you've "magically forgotten" the Brooks Brothers riot?

[ivandobsky]

_20201222_110155.JPG

Where's that face-palm emoji?

This lacks context, if there is any contradiction here, it's due to the state. If the caller to the show is young and fit, it seems quite sensible that they might wish to go outside and take their chances. Perhaps those that wish to go about their business should be permitted to do so, with the provision that those that are at significant risk (or anyone) not be obligated to go outside by their employer etc.

[bushwackerbob]

I just want a little transparency here with these bills, is that too much to ask? When some bullshit thing happens at my place of work and I ask why and this stodgy old timer geezer says "well, this is the way we have always done it", that lazy, lame ass answer is simply not good enough for me and ought not to be good enough for your average American taxpayer citizen. Why must a bullshit Christmas tree bill be linked to COVID relief? No one has yet to address that simple question.

[tallyho]

_20201222_110155.JPG

Where's that face-palm emoji?

This lacks context, if there is any contradiction here, it's due to the state. If the caller to the show is young and fit, it seems quite sensible that they might wish to go outside and take their chances. Perhaps those that wish to go about their business should be permitted to do so, with the provision that those that are at significant risk (or anyone) not be obligated to go outside by their employer etc.

The context of her circumstances don't matter. The point is she says she can't see an end to the crisis and then turns her back on the end to the crisis that's offered. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If nobody takes the vaccine then there is no end to the crisis.

[Mr. X]

Russia's involvement in the 2016 election was not a conspiracy theory.

As they do, China does, Israel does, France does, as Saudis does.... etc etc etc every single election cycle. Saudis gave millions to Hillary's campaign in 2016.

Stating something technically true but ultimately vague and redundant is not proof of a special case. "Russia did memes" or "Russia meddled" is a meaningless statement if not put into context or shown to be a unique case that had some large, adverse effect.

"This square inch on this wall is white" has no meaning if the whole wall is white.

"there is tangible evidence that Russia tried to influence the election"

Undeniable because this is true of every election we have ever had. True under Bush sr, under Bush jr, under Clinton etc etc. Its a vague statement. A nugget of truth that is always true under every election wrapped in specially pleaded manure. Hillary got money from the Saudis... technically true. Does that mean the Saudis had an adverse effect on the election process?

Or perhaps you've "magically forgotten" the Brooks Brothers riot?

Or some people magically forgetting the "dangling chads" and claims of voting machine fraud and the Simpson's episode where no matter who Homer picked it switched to Bush over Gore? Like that?

Nobody is on Mt. Olympus here. You stated NOTHING about Russia involvement that is any different than Russia involvement in every election cycle. You stated something that is technically ALWAYS true. Please provide evidence that the 2016 cycle was significantly different and that it was an issue that significantly swayed the election for Trump. Other than that its a redundantly vague nothing burger that we all had to hear about for 3 years.

[Mr. X]

_20201222_110155.JPG

Where's that face-palm emoji?

This lacks context, if there is any contradiction here, it's due to the state. If the caller to the show is young and fit, it seems quite sensible that they might wish to go outside and take their chances. Perhaps those that wish to go about their business should be permitted to do so, with the provision that those that are at significant risk (or anyone) not be obligated to go outside by their employer etc.

The context of her circumstances don't matter. The point is she says she can't see an end to the crisis and then turns her back on the end to the crisis that's offered. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If nobody takes the vaccine then there is no end to the crisis.

You don't know the vaccine will have any real effect or any sizable effect. The Swine flu vaccine only had a 40% effectiveness rate (from memory). This vaccine has not been field tested over a long term and viruses do mutate.

One thing that fascinates me is why some people think they can solve this at all. That there's some collectivist solution "if we all just obey". What if there isn't a solution? What happens next year when the next flu comes? You willing to send tanks down the street when people decide to open up businesses and defy the government? You willing to use violence to kill people who refuse to obey?

BTW I love how people criticized Trump for closing travel when the virus first started and especially people from China yet Britain right now is having massive travel lock downs. AND from specific countries. NOW that's OK? MORE people are wearing masks... why the spikes?

[Damselbinder]

Russia's involvement in the 2016 election was not a conspiracy theory.

As they do, China does, Israel does, France does, as Saudis does.... etc etc etc every single election cycle. Saudis gave millions to Hillary's campaign in 2016.

Stating something technically true but ultimately vague and redundant is not proof of a special case. "Russia did memes" or "Russia meddled" is a meaningless statement if not put into context or shown to be a unique case that had some large, adverse effect.

"This square inch on this wall is white" has no meaning if the whole wall is white.

"there is tangible evidence that Russia tried to influence the election"

Undeniable because this is true of every election we have ever had. True under Bush sr, under Bush jr, under Clinton etc etc. Its a vague statement. A nugget of truth that is always true under every election wrapped in specially pleaded manure. Hillary got money from the Saudis... technically true. Does that mean the Saudis had an adverse effect on the election process?

Or perhaps you've "magically forgotten" the Brooks Brothers riot?

Or some people magically forgetting the "dangling chads" and claims of voting machine fraud and the Simpson's episode where no matter who Homer picked it switched to Bush over Gore? Like that?

Nobody is on Mt. Olympus here. You stated NOTHING about Russia involvement that is any different than Russia involvement in every election cycle. You stated something that is technically ALWAYS true. Please provide evidence that the 2016 cycle was significantly different and that it was an issue that significantly swayed the election for Trump. Other than that its a redundantly vague nothing burger that we all had to hear about for 3 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_i ... References

Here you go.

What I will add is that there certainly was some genuinely conspiratorial stuff, like the "Putin has tapes of Trump in flagrante delicto" sort of shit. If you're complaining about that, fair enough.

[Imagineer]

Why must a bullshit Christmas tree bill be linked to COVID relief? No one has yet to address that simple question.

Simple answer: legislative bodies make progress by making compromises.

[bushwackerbob]

Why must a bullshit Christmas tree bill be linked to COVID relief? No one has yet to address that simple question.

Simple answer: legislative bodies make progress by making compromises.

Anybody in Washington who feels that their constituents only deserve a COVID relief check, that COVID-19 relief is dependent on these sleezebag politicians getting money for their pet projects as well as helping folks during these challenging times, I don't call that compromise, I call it not having a soul.

[five_red]

Actually that is new. We did have absentee ballots in the past but the person had to confirm identity to get one. Way different than nevada just mailing a bunch of ballots to anyone who owned a house in Nevada and people possibly double voting.

First used in the USA during the civil war, postal voting has been a feature of every presidential election since. Passports as a form of proof of identity for US citizens traveling abroad only became compulsory in 1941 apparently (they were first issued in the 19th century, but US citizens could still re-enter America without one until the outbreak of WW II.) The first driving license was issued by New York in 1901. During a period when most people had only basic literacy skills, if any, how exactly were the the good people of the 1860s verifying their identity? Utility bills?

Nevada citizens are required by their state law to show ID the first time they vote, as part of voter registration. They are required to vote in person the very first time they vote in the state (absentee votes not allowed.) For all subsequent elections, their signature is used to verify their identity. For a postal vote that signature is used twice to verify their identity: during the initial application for a postal vote, and again when the ballot arrives to be counted. Nevada did not mail out a ballot to everyone in the state -- it sent out application forms inviting people to request absentee ballots.

Also I would say the same about the left
"voting machines are rigged - Gore was cheated"
"voting machines are OK - Biden won"

The problem in Florida in 2000 was not with the voting machines. It was with the so-called hanging chads, ballots that the machines could not count because the holes in the ballot had not been clearly stamped out. These votes then had to be interpreted by humans. Democrats wanted ballots where there was a clear indication of a hole being punched, even if the hole hadn't been fully punched clean out, to be counted. Because the old/cheap voting machine that caused these problems tended to be used in poorer (therefore Democrat leaning) districts, Republicans insisted that only votes with a clean hole and no hanging chad be counted.

Because of these issues, the Bush administration made available funds to overhaul the voting equipment used in elections. This is how/why many states started to adopt machines like the ones made by Dominion, to increase accuracy and security. (It is then ironic that those very machines are touted as inaccurate and insecure by Bush's Republican successor.)

The left have a serious case of Lustrum-nesia. Al Gore demanding recounts. Al Franken demanding recounts. And lets not forget 3 years of Russia conspiracy theory that somehow Putin rigged the US election for Trump which the left seems to now magically forget about.

Actually, in many states, if the vote is within half a percent, a manual by-hand recount is mandatory, regardless of whether any candidates ask for it. IIRC this is what happened to Gore/Bush in Florida 2000, and it is what happened in 2020 in Georgia.

EDIT: just checked, and the Franken recount in 2008 was also a mandatory recount, triggered automatically when his opponent won by just 215 votes.

It is generally accepted by everyone except the Trump administration (such as the NSA, CIA and FBI) that Russia spread misinformation on social media, and participated in targeted leaks of hacked information, in an effort to harm one specific candidate only in the 2016. Whether or not any voters believed the misinformation put out by Russia is a matter of opinion. The Mueller Report acknowledged this evidence, and agreed that Russia had been acting to swing the election towards Trump, but did not find evidence to suggest that the Trump campaign had asked for this interference. Those same three-letter agencies are now warning that Russia interfered again in the 2020 elections, including spreading materials on social media to cast doubt on the integrity and security of the votes in specific states to falsely make people think that the election was rigged as part of a giant conspiracy. Thankfully voters are too smart to fall for something as transparently false as that, right?

R5

[five_red]

As they do, China does, Israel does, France does, as Saudis does.... etc etc etc every single election cycle. Saudis gave millions to Hillary's campaign in 2016.

No they didn't coz that would be massively illegal under US election law, and would spark a major diplomatic incident. Indeed I'm pretty certain it is illegal in one form or another in most mature democracies around the world. Hillary really would have been locked up if she had accepted any donations from individuals or organisations that were not American, for real.

R5

[five_red]

Why must a bullshit Christmas tree bill be linked to COVID relief? No one has yet to address that simple question.

Sorry, I assumed it was obvious. They bickered so much that they ran out of time and needed something quick before year's end, so piggy backing on the existing Christmas tree bill was the best available option to get everything through.

As Von Bismarck once said, "politics is the art of the possible, the attainable, the art of the next best."

R5

[bushwackerbob]

Why must a bullshit Christmas tree bill be linked to COVID relief? No one has yet to address that simple question.

Sorry, I assumed it was obvious. They bickered so much that they ran out of time and needed something quick before year's end, so piggy backing on the existing Christmas tree bill was the best available option to get everything through.

As Von Bismarck once said, "politics is the art of the possible, the attainable, the art of the next best."

R5

Sorry I misunderstood you. Could they not have weeks or months ago agreed on a standalone bill on COVID and then dealt with the separate issue of Christmas tree gimmies now and not have the two issues entertwined? This is what I mean when I say that the politicians from both parties in Washington unnecessarily complicate things.

[Damselbinder]

Why must a bullshit Christmas tree bill be linked to COVID relief? No one has yet to address that simple question.

Sorry, I assumed it was obvious. They bickered so much that they ran out of time and needed something quick before year's end, so piggy backing on the existing Christmas tree bill was the best available option to get everything through.

As Von Bismarck once said, "politics is the art of the possible, the attainable, the art of the next best."

R5

Sorry I misunderstood you. Could they not have weeks or months ago agreed on a standalone bill on COVID and then dealt with the separate issue of Christmas tree gimmies now and not have the two issues entertwined? This is what I mean when I say that the politicians from both parties in Washington unnecessarily complicate things.

Everyone wants peace. So why is there war? Because people can't agree on the terms. Which party you think is more responsible for the deadlock will depend on your political affiliations. So I'd be more likely to blame the Republicans, because I think what they wanted out of the bill was irrational and absurd. But obviously, like, if I'm wrong... then I'm wrong.

[Mr. X]

During a period when most people had only basic literacy skills, if any, how exactly were the the good people of the 1860s verifying their identity? Utility bills?

Done here. You're comparing voting from 1860. No computers.

[Mr. X]

As they do, China does, Israel does, France does, as Saudis does.... etc etc etc every single election cycle. Saudis gave millions to Hillary's campaign in 2016.

No they didn't coz that would be massively illegal under US election law, and would spark a major diplomatic incident. Indeed I'm pretty certain it is illegal in one form or another in most mature democracies around the world. Hillary really would have been locked up if she had accepted any donations from individuals or organisations that were not American, for real.

R5

They do it all the time and the US meddles in foreign elections all the time. And what's illegal? Contributing money? Hillary got millions from the Saudis. Memes? Nothing illegal about that. Paying for ads? Promoting a candidate on RT? What was "illegal". And spare me the "go read the Mueller report, I have. Its vague and it also says Bernie Sanders benefited.

Plenty of wacka-doodle conspiracy theories to go around. At least the birthers didn't have the fed waste MILLIONS on a giant nothing burger.

Voila
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Unit ... ontroversy
https://www.mintpressnews.com/saudi-cro ... gn/217172/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 70481.html

Yes it happens ALL THE TIME in EVERY ELECTION.

Stating something that is ALWAYS true making it ALWAYS redundant is not an argument.

[Bert]

I just want a little transparency here with these bills, is that too much to ask? When some bullshit thing happens at my place of work and I ask why and this stodgy old timer geezer says "well, this is the way we have always done it", that lazy, lame ass answer is simply not good enough for me and ought not to be good enough for your average American taxpayer citizen. Why must a bullshit Christmas tree bill be linked to COVID relief? No one has yet to address that simple question.

Perhaps your frustration is unnecessary. The thing that is angering you is that everyone keeps referring to the bill as the Covid Relief Bill. But it's actually more than just a covid bill. it's a Covid Plus Bill. If you just think of it as a bill that includes covid relief measures the problem disappears.

[Bert]

At the risk of being redundant, I'm going to say it again. Just don't engage with Mr. X and Dazzle. Why invest the time in doing a point by point refutation of the unhinged stuff they post? You're not going to change their minds and they'll just come back with even more unhinged arguments in response. Don't feed the trolls.

[bushwackerbob]

Why must a bullshit Christmas tree bill be linked to COVID relief? No one has yet to address that simple question.

Sorry, I assumed it was obvious. They bickered so much that they ran out of time and needed something quick before year's end, so piggy backing on the existing Christmas tree bill was the best available option to get everything through.

As Von Bismarck once said, "politics is the art of the possible, the attainable, the art of the next best."

R5

Sorry I misunderstood you. Could they not have weeks or months ago agreed on a standalone bill on COVID and then dealt with the separate issue of Christmas tree gimmies now and not have the two issues entertwined? This is what I mean when I say that the politicians from both parties in Washington unnecessarily complicate things.

Everyone wants peace. So why is there war? Because people can't agree on the terms. Which party you think is more responsible for the deadlock will depend on your political affiliations. So I'd be more likely to blame the Republicans, because I think what they wanted out of the bill was irrational and absurd. But obviously, like, if I'm wrong... then I'm wrong.

My suspicion is that both parties sent us down this road, bickering, negotiating, that both sides wanted these delays so that at the end of the year they could hide these gimmies and goodies and tax breaks in the Christmas tree bill and comingle these goodies among the auspices of COVID relief with barely 5 hours to read over 5000 pages. As far as I am concerned, The Democrats and Republicans are co-conspirators in this debacle. Delay, delay, delay, until, oops! We are running out of time. This is fake and contrived just like wrestling, fake back and forth negotiations and wars of words because both sides knew the end game was we are all out of time and we have to shovel this horse shit down the taxpayers throats just before the end of session and both sides played their parts accordingly like it was some kind of dance, all at taxpayers expense. Both sides are complicit in this mess.

[theScribbler]

During a period when most people had only basic literacy skills, if any, how exactly were the the good people of the 1860s verifying their identity? Utility bills?

Done here. You're comparing voting from 1860. No computers.

Nonsensical response there.

What he posted was
"First used in the USA during the civil war, postal voting has been a feature of every presidential election since. Passports as a form of proof of identity for US citizens traveling abroad only became compulsory in 1941 apparently (they were first issued in the 19th century, but US citizens could still re-enter America without one until the outbreak of WW II.) The first driving license was issued by New York in 1901. During a period when most people had only basic literacy skills, if any, how exactly were the the good people of the 1860s verifying their identity? Utility bills?

Nevada citizens are required by their state law to show ID the first time they vote, as part of voter registration. They are required to vote in person the very first time they vote in the state (absentee votes not allowed.) For all subsequent elections, their signature is used to verify their identity. For a postal vote that signature is used twice to verify their identity: during the initial application for a postal vote, and again when the ballot arrives to be counted. Nevada did not mail out a ballot to everyone in the state -- it sent out application forms inviting people to request absentee ballots."

Which totally exterminated and pulverized your:

"Actually that is new. We did have absentee ballots in the past but the person had to confirm identity to get one. Way different than nevada just mailing a bunch of ballots to anyone who owned a house in Nevada and people possibly double voting."

So NOT new and NOT mailing a bunch of ballots to anyone in Nevada and NOT people possibly double voting.

[Damselbinder]

Why must a bullshit Christmas tree bill be linked to COVID relief? No one has yet to address that simple question.

Sorry, I assumed it was obvious. They bickered so much that they ran out of time and needed something quick before year's end, so piggy backing on the existing Christmas tree bill was the best available option to get everything through.

As Von Bismarck once said, "politics is the art of the possible, the attainable, the art of the next best."

R5

Sorry I misunderstood you. Could they not have weeks or months ago agreed on a standalone bill on COVID and then dealt with the separate issue of Christmas tree gimmies now and not have the two issues entertwined? This is what I mean when I say that the politicians from both parties in Washington unnecessarily complicate things.

Everyone wants peace. So why is there war? Because people can't agree on the terms. Which party you think is more responsible for the deadlock will depend on your political affiliations. So I'd be more likely to blame the Republicans, because I think what they wanted out of the bill was irrational and absurd. But obviously, like, if I'm wrong... then I'm wrong.

My suspicion is that both parties sent us down this road, bickering, negotiating, that both sides wanted these delays so that at the end of the year they could hide these gimmies and goodies and tax breaks in the Christmas tree bill and comingle these goodies among the auspices of COVID relief with barely 5 hours to read over 5000 pages. As far as I am concerned, The Democrats and Republicans are co-conspirators in this debacle. Delay, delay, delay, until, oops! We are running out of time. This is fake and contrived just like wrestling, fake back and forth negotiations and wars of words because both sides knew the end game was we are all out of time and we have to shovel this horse shit down the taxpayers throats just before the end of session and both sides played their parts accordingly like it was some kind of dance, all at taxpayers expense. Both sides are complicit in this mess.

While I don't concur that both sides are equally complicit, that's certainly within the grounds of genuine disagreement. What I'm interested in is why you think the two sides are co-conspirators. As creaky as the machinery of state are, do you not think the two sides have genuinely incompatible ideological commitments?