Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Where derailed topics go to ....live?
Bert

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

Tweeting that you don't believe in science, on the smartphone that wouldn't exist without it, is stupid and annoying but not particularly impactful. Refusing to wear a mask or observe other pandemic safety measures because you don't believe in science puts my life at risk. I have a very big issue with that. People are free to believe what they want, but only up to the point that it starts to infringe on the rights of others. And you know what - I think Foucault would agree with that.
User avatar
Heroine Addict
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 1971
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Heroine Addict »

Mr. X wrote: 3 years ago
Heroine Addict wrote: 3 years ago
Evolution is the key word there. Approximately 40% of Americans don't even believe in evolution. Many of them also think that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Which denies pretty much the entire science of Geology. When huge swathes of the US population deny Evolutionary Biology and Geology because the evidence doesn't fit with their scripture-based worldview, it's really not a surprise that science denial should be rampant at a time of national emergency. Virology Schmirology!
So what.
They can believe what they want. Their capitulation is not required.

There are people who think there are 57 genders or the Russians rigged the election for Trump or the Hobbesian view humans are inherently evil or the collective is more important than the individual.

As Bert suggested, beliefs and opinions are fine up until the point when they inform actions which place others in jeopardy. Then the recklessness of science deniers becomes an infringement of others' rights.

Someone may believe that seatbelts kill more people than they save, for example. They are welcome to believe that but their belief/opinion is not equal to the wealth of credible data which proves conclusively that mandatory seatbelt wearing is more likely to save your life than end it. Nor does that opinion make someone exempt from compliance with seatbelt laws. (Now, a few "soveriegn citizen" types may argue, hilariously, that they are somehow exempt from seatbelt laws, along with most other laws. However, the sovs are, to use the technical term, fucking dipshits.)

Mr. X wrote: 3 years agoAs Faucault points out, science as we use it in society, is not the rigor. Its a panel of experts, selected through a political process, that determine what is truth, what is not, what is allowed to discuss, who can contribute, who can refute.

No I don't believe the other half of the US are also about science. They are about class, bourgeoisie and social hierarchy.


"Around this time of this picture [1981] I was warning Foucault about Aids. When I first told him about the disease he said: “Oh that's perfect Edmund: you American puritans, you’re always inventing diseases. And one that singles out blacks, drug users and gays – how perfect!” Gay rights had been so hard to fight for that Aids felt like a real reversal. It just seemed to be too perfect for him to believe in it. I tried to insist that it was real despite its ideological aspects." Edmund White

Foucault died due to an AIDS-related condition in 1984. When it comes to rational risk assessment of viral infection, I think you'd be wise to trust the virologists over the philosophers.
"A brass unicorn has been catapulted across a London street and impaled an eminent surgeon. Words fail me, gentlemen."
Imagineer
Overlord
Overlord
Posts: 614
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Imagineer »

Heroine Addict wrote: 3 years ago As Bert suggested, beliefs and opinions are fine up until the point when they inform actions which place others in jeopardy. Then the recklessness of science deniers becomes an infringement of others' rights.

Someone may believe that seatbelts kill more people than they save, for example. They are welcome to believe that but their belief/opinion is not equal to the wealth of credible data which proves conclusively that mandatory seatbelt wearing is more likely to save your life than end it. Nor does that opinion make someone exempt from compliance with seatbelt laws.
Seatbelt laws -- that's an interesting choice of example. It undercuts your first sentence a bit, specifically "up until the point when they inform actions which place others in jeopardy."

The trick is that there isn't a point, because jeopardy isn't binary.

The thing about individual rights is that they don't exist in a vacuum. Not everything is a zero sum game, but our lives affect each other. Around the world and over time.

Mandatory mask-wearing puts an individual's comfort and freedom of expression against a chance of temporary illness, and smaller chances of permanent complications or death.

Seatbelts? Hmm. Well, there are costs to society if you're injured, and other costs if you're killed. There is also a generally-understood societal obligation to protect individuals from risks they're not aware of -- this isn't just for society's benefit, but is also a form of protecting the individual's rights to life and liberty. How far do we go to protect individuals from their own ignorance? How sure we are about the risk certainly plays into it -- and there's a lot of friction in disagreements over the risk assessments.

And what obligation does society have to educate people? And how does society handle the rights of those who seem to act irrationally?

Lots of gray. Some very dark, some very light, some very close to black and white, but plenty of messy uncertainty.
User avatar
five_red
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts: 305
Joined: 10 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by five_red »

Mr. X wrote: 3 years ago As Faucault points out, science as we use it in society, is not the rigor. Its a panel of experts, selected through a political process, that determine what is truth, what is not, what is allowed to discuss, who can contribute, who can refute.
Those 'experts' don't determine what is true - - nothing could be further from the truth, and anyone who believes that has a warped and fallacious view of what Science is. What the experts do is help determine how to apply what we know is true into real world policy; and (as has been demonstrated admirably by this pandemic) their ability to act is entirely limited by politicians. Ultimately Fauci and the other experts don't really have any power at all: they are bound by scientific evidence and the scientific process on one side to determine what they consider the truth to be, and the are beholden to politicians on the other side to determine how that truth is enacted in real world policy.

No panel of experts, no matter how prominent, would be able to arbitrarily decide what the cause of Covid-19 is, nor force the public to wear masks. Scientists are not cardinals in some religion, deciding for themselves what the truth is and forcing the populous to comply. "I tell you that the Sun is Ra in his golden chariot riding across the sky, and I'll have your head chopped off if you disagree with me."

And science certainly doesn't shut down discussion; again that is politics and society. In science you're allowed to say "I think meditation can cause remissions in cancer" (stranger things have been suggested), no matter how much your ideas may fail under experimentation. But we've seen the downsides of what happens when such open and pragmatic approaches escape into the outside world and are misinterpreted by laypeople: they start to ignore medical advice and end up trying all manner of unproven remedies, and some of them die. So discussion of certain classes of ideas, those that can cause physical harm, are restricted by laws and regulations. You can't shout "fire" in a crowded theatre, and you can't go on YouTube and claim that drinking bleach will protect you from a virus. (You can, however, suggest the same thing in an academic peer reviewed paper.)

(BTW, when Steve Jobs was first diagnosed with the cancer that ultimately killed him, his response (as a former hippy) was to switch to a fruit-based diet and start meditating more frequently. Only after six weeks (IIRC) of this did he relent and follow the advice of his medical doctors. Again: IQ and gullibility are not connected. )

R5
User avatar
Femina
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 1493
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Femina »

bushwackerbob wrote: 3 years ago My my, that is quite an expansive definition of natural disaster, and sorry, I am not buying it. This was a man made virus. As a fine and smart Canadian dude once said to me "human beings are imperfect individuals, they are fallible, they make mistakes". I believe that is what happened here, in the Wuhan province in China, where some smart folks likely got very careless and made some grave mistakes which have cost human lives. This Chinese virus is to blame. I am just stating the facts as I see them. This virus is of Chinese origin and they are to blame for the outbreak of COVID-19 and Trump fucked it up from there.
What you BELIEVE doesn't matter in this instance. That's how you start burning innocent women as witches in Salem.

Only what is FACTUAL matters when dealing with a FACTUAL disaster. Factually speaking, you need EVIDENCE to make a claim that somebody made a virus that has gone GLOBAL and accuse them of it.

Now, I wouldn't absolve the Chinese from making their own KEY mistakes and contributing to the spread, that is a DIFFERENT criticsism and one many a country hasn't handled with equal care... but what you're doing is like accusing the victims of a Tsunami that hit their coast which then rebounded and hit ANOTHER coast of being RESPONSIBLE for the Tsunami.

You're looking for someone to BLAME, where no human being or group of human beings CAN BE blamed. It's a waste of your time and the effort you could be putting elsewhere. This is the last I'll humor you about about it outside of warning anyone you bring it up to that you have provided no evidence for your claim when asked for it outside of your gut 'feeling' which means literally nothing.

Good day... and I apologize if I come of as hostile here BwB, I'm honestly pretty okay with you these days. You've been pretty sensible all and all about this thing and not letting things like your personal politics invade what should be done about it, but I've got to draw a line somewhere and casting blame for a thing on people who have no control over a things existence is one of those lines. We're ALL victims of the virus equally, how about letting that bring us all together a little instead of looking for reasons to reinforce our colloquial and geographic separations?
Mr. X wrote: 3 years ago
Heroine Addict wrote: 3 years ago
Evolution is the key word there. Approximately 40% of Americans don't even believe in evolution. Many of them also think that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Which denies pretty much the entire science of Geology. When huge swathes of the US population deny Evolutionary Biology and Geology because the evidence doesn't fit with their scripture-based worldview, it's really not a surprise that science denial should be rampant at a time of national emergency. Virology Schmirology!
So what.
They can believe what they want. Their capitulation is not required.
Our freedoms in America typically amount to the 'until those freedoms intrude on or risk another' and that includes our freedom's of belief. It isn't the intention that we should be allowed to believe whatever we want regardless of how many our beliefs HARM. So you see, since the problem is that these beliefs are inflicting active harm on the rest of the United States, their capitulation IS necessary... and it'd be HEROIC of them to quit whining about it and do as they've been asked so that it never becomes necessary for them to 'Capitulate'.


But I mean... what do you expect from a country full of people who are now claiming that the Vaccine is all a scam to make women infertile? You look for ANY REASON to not have to make any effort towards protecting yourself or others from a Virus you can invent any fucking thing. So belief has never, and WILL never, be a blanket freedom to actually DO whatever you want. You're free to BELIEVE that wearing a mask is pointless, but eventually if enough people BELIEVING this refuse to comply and it creates problem enough, what you BELIEVE will no longer matter and you may find yourself FORCED to do it.
Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago
Seatbelt laws -- that's an interesting choice of example. It undercuts your first sentence a bit, specifically "up until the point when they inform actions which place others in jeopardy."

The trick is that there isn't a point, because jeopardy isn't binary.

The thing about individual rights is that they don't exist in a vacuum. Not everything is a zero sum game, but our lives affect each other. Around the world and over time.

Mandatory mask-wearing puts an individual's comfort and freedom of expression against a chance of temporary illness, and smaller chances of permanent complications or death.

Seatbelts? Hmm. Well, there are costs to society if you're injured, and other costs if you're killed. There is also a generally-understood societal obligation to protect individuals from risks they're not aware of -- this isn't just for society's benefit, but is also a form of protecting the individual's rights to life and liberty. How far do we go to protect individuals from their own ignorance? How sure we are about the risk certainly plays into it -- and there's a lot of friction in disagreements over the risk assessments.

And what obligation does society have to educate people? And how does society handle the rights of those who seem to act irrationally?

Lots of gray. Some very dark, some very light, some very close to black and white, but plenty of messy uncertainty.
You just undercut yourself? You point out that jeopardy isn't binary... then seem to suggest it's therefore irrational to take effort to protect the populace from jeopardy like it's 'too much' of an infringement on individual freedoms! That's HOGWASH!

I really hope that's not what you meant because society therefore has every obligation to educate people BECAUSE of what you've just indicated. If we are to take that logic to its furthest extreme, we come into a scenario where every living person has created their own belief systems and act upon them in accordance with their INDIVIDUAL rights and beliefs... and if that's the case, we'd better make sure all those people are EDUCATED AS FUCK so that they aren't acting entirely autonomously ALONGSIDE being IGNORANT FUCKS.

So I guess in that case Society may not have an 'obligation' to educate... but it sure as shit would find educating people to be an EXISTENTIAL NECESSITY.
Imagineer
Overlord
Overlord
Posts: 614
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Imagineer »

Femina wrote: 3 years ago You just undercut yourself? You point out that jeopardy isn't binary... then seem to suggest it's therefore irrational to take effort to protect the populace from jeopardy like it's 'too much' of an infringement on individual freedoms! That's HOGWASH!

WTF? Take a timeout. Your rant here is based on a misreading / strawmanning so egregious I can only say NOPE, try again later. Just, damn.
Bert

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago Mandatory mask-wearing puts an individual's comfort and freedom of expression against a chance of temporary illness, and smaller chances of permanent complications or death.
The main issue here isn't the virus risk to the individual who refuses to wear a mask, it's the virus risk to those around that person who are recklessly endangered by that selfish decision.
User avatar
Mr. X
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 4677
Joined: 12 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Mr. X »

Heroine Addict wrote: 3 years ago Foucault died due to an AIDS-related condition in 1984. When it comes to rational risk assessment of viral infection, I think you'd be wise to trust the virologists over the philosophers.
I don't. I just love to use some peoples' ideology views/excuses against them. Its good for a laugh.
Imagineer
Overlord
Overlord
Posts: 614
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Imagineer »

Bert wrote: 3 years ago
Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago Mandatory mask-wearing puts an individual's comfort and freedom of expression against a chance of temporary illness, and smaller chances of permanent complications or death.
The main issue here isn't the virus risk to the individual who refuses to wear a mask, it's the virus risk to those around that person who are recklessly endangered by that selfish decision.
I didn't say it wasn't. In fact, I thought it was so well established it didn't need that degree of clarification, but I guess we're technically still having conversations in mixed company, so, sorry about that.

The point of my comment was considering both the likelihood and severity of consequences on both sides (and yes, to others, not just oneself). The anti-mask argument seems bent on denying any measurable possibility of severe negative consequences for others, to the point that freedom to not wear a mask is so important that the existing baseline of scientific understanding is not sufficient to demonstrate enough possibility to violate that freedom. That insistence seems completely out of line with other existing consensus on balancing liberty against responsibility.

Why is this? Heck, seatbelts are obvious, aren't they? We have seatbelt consensus, right?

Maybe now, but it took decades to reach that consensus, and it still took a combination of executive action and legislative consensus to enact mandates to install and wear seatbelts, and enough of a public consensus not to undo those mandates -- and there are still two fringe minorities: (1) those who refuse to believe they're beneficial; (2) those who understand the benefits and choose not to wear them anyway.

And those decades of change were built in part on being able to reach a broad popular consensus that, at least, seatbelts weren't so terrible they weren't worth arguing anymore, and later / to a lesser extent that they were definitely a no-brainer. Does our society still have functional mechanisms to establish such consensus?

This still with the costs to society of not wearing seatbelts a much less significant secondary argument. So mask-wearing in the face (!) of a pandemic ought to be a lot more compelling given the fact that it clearly helps protect others... except we haven't done those decades of seatbelt homework. The "fact" and "clearly" are heavily contested by a not-insignificant portion of the public.

And I'm sure it's clear to many of us, but not all of us, that the size of that portion of the public isn't just a function of how new the idea of mask-wearing as disease-prevention is to most of the (American/Western) public, but of the dysfunction in the systems that inform, educate, and build consensus.

I bet we have broad consensus that democracy's viability is negatively affected by ignorance and irrationality.

How far does the state push education into the infringement of individual liberty on the grounds that they are ignorant and irrational? We have no shortage of public-safety mandates in Western cultures and especially the US -- but a lot of them are on the supply side to overcome shortcomings of education on the demand side. Education takes time and doesn't always work.

Can America constitutionally survive viral propaganda that makes its citizens more ignorant and irrational?

Do we deny speech to propagandists?
Do we disenfranchise the ignorant?
Those are extremes. Somewhat less extreme but plenty controversial: do we mandate more education? (And implied in that, undo the local funding and control that hampers it?)

Hasn't decades of increasingly sophisticated advertising pushed us to selfish, wasteful, even destructive and globally-imperiling behaviors and systems to support and encourage them? Aspects of the lifestyle to which we are accustomed, all who are reading this online wherever they are, have been built to an extent on the exploitation of others past present and future. It's not a zero-sum game but some would question the equity of the win-win. The politics of social media are a new development of longstanding practices. We've been amusing ourselves to death for a long time.

Is it self-important to think it's our generation witnessing the turning point, when every generation seems to think that? I dunno, but the sense of mounting evidence is depressing.
Last edited by Imagineer 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Mr. X
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 4677
Joined: 12 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Mr. X »

Bert wrote: 3 years ago
Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago Mandatory mask-wearing puts an individual's comfort and freedom of expression against a chance of temporary illness, and smaller chances of permanent complications or death.
The main issue here isn't the virus risk to the individual who refuses to wear a mask, it's the virus risk to those around that person who are recklessly endangered by that selfish decision.

First off the evidence is not clear the masks do much good if anything at all as I pointed out earlier. We have MORE mask wearing compliance yet we had MORE spikes. Its not consistent.

Secondly the mask argument is a red herring. The real issue is the closing down of businesses based mostly along class lines. Bob's furniture store has to close but Walmart gets to stay open. Ralph's BBQ shack has to close but McDonalds with its 10 employees packed into the back shoulder to shoulder gets to stay open. Movie and video production considered an "essential business" gets to stay open but restaurant out door dining is closed.



There is a clear double standard here. Nobody is getting sick in Mary's candle shop or Doug's coffee hut. They are getting sick in Walmart.

As Jimmy Dorn said, this is the largest wealth transfer UPWARD in human history and I would add the biggest group holding down the innocent while their lives are destroyed and defending large corporations staying open are the same POSERS who claim to be liberal.

This is class warfare.
User avatar
Femina
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 1493
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Femina »

Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago
Femina wrote: 3 years ago You just undercut yourself? You point out that jeopardy isn't binary... then seem to suggest it's therefore irrational to take effort to protect the populace from jeopardy like it's 'too much' of an infringement on individual freedoms! That's HOGWASH!

WTF? Take a timeout. Your rant here is based on a misreading / strawmanning so egregious I can only say NOPE, try again later. Just, damn.
Maybe explain yourself more clearly? 'Strawman' isn't itself a rebuttal and doesn't serve to clean the misinterpretation. Going over it again, your statement still doesn't read any differently me.

I DO see what you're saying in regard to Seabelts themselves at least, but there IS a 'point' where your actions jeopardize others regardless of the situation and circumstances waffling the line around on the 'sum'. The 'fault point' is decided upon by the majority/society/monarch etc. of whatever governmental authority you innately subscribe to. In the seatbelt scenario for instance, refusing to wear a seatbelt is a personal liability which one could make an argument for against the whole 'buckle up or ticket!' stuff. Refusing to PRODUCE a seatbelt in your rolling death box is something less refutable in our society I think?

One refusing to produce a seatbelt with their automobile will result in nearly every accident in a vehicle produced by you to result in injury or deaths which you might have taken proven steps to prevent. Obviously the question of reasonable precaution takes effect. Nobody should be punished for not producing seatbelts before the concept of seatbelts were invented for instance, but seatbelts themselves constitute the result of vehicle manufacturers being named liable for the deaths of people who were being killed by a fault in vehicular safety according to an authority, so clearly they were tasked with doing SOMETHING about their problem... and they came up with the seatbelt.

On the other end...

An individual simply refusing to wear a seatbelt will almost certainly result in their own injury or death in a car accident, baring a miracle, but an argument could still be made that it has minimal risk to others. However... extreme circumstances still constitute a 'fault line'. I'd imagine someone who pays little attention to buckling themselves are more likely not to pay attention to the buckling habits of others (not to strawman anyone though, this is at least still a thought experiment, it's certainly probable at least SOME people who just 'choose' not to wear a seatbelt would still be attentive to passengers... I just personally doubt the percentile is high). Did they have kids in the car? Did they oversee the children putting on a seatbelt? No? Then they were responsible for the children bouncing around in the car, and not the vehicle manufacturers because the individual was the one that flouted the safety measure.

There's usually a line with anything that involves our ability to choose... which is at least partially why so much of our legal system is in 'arguing' about how much guilt the accused is expected to take on.

Seatbelts, however, are not an apt analogy of comparison with wearing a mask or taking personal precaution against the virus. Which is perhaps more what you meant to say to begin with? (Please do tell me if and how I'm wrong though if I am, I'm not TRYING to Strawman you) The virus ITSELF has eclipsed the point of taking action against it as being an individual risk. Refusing to wear a mask is something you do to directly protect yourself AND OTHERS. Choosing to take the vaccine whenever it becomes available would be similarly, to protect yourself from contracting the virus AND preventing yourself from spreading it.

Edit: I can see in your post ahead of this one, that you do in fact explain yourself more clearly. I hereby afford you apology for taking you out of context.
Last edited by Femina 3 years ago, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Femina
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 1493
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Femina »

Mr. X wrote: 3 years ago First off the evidence is not clear the masks do much good if anything at all as I pointed out earlier. We have MORE mask wearing compliance yet we had MORE spikes. Its not consistent.
There is absolutely evidence that masks do good work at preventing certain forms of viral vectors and have done so for hundreds of years. The evidence exists within every hospital that has been practicing the wearing of masks daily for decades, resulting in fewer medical professional contracting their patients illnesses. The fact that the wearing of masks on a larger scale doesn't result in an identical percentile does not constitute as evidence that masks don't work, but that additional factors remain at play. Regardless, it is not an EXCUSE to not wear a mask... nor should time be wasted campaigning AGAINST wearing a mask because of it. Rather the time should be spent looking into what additional factors are resulting in infection.
Secondly the mask argument is a red herring. The real issue is the closing down of businesses based mostly along class lines. Bob's furniture store has to close but Walmart gets to stay open. Ralph's BBQ shack has to close but McDonalds with its 10 employees packed into the back shoulder to shoulder gets to stay open. Movie and video production considered an "essential business" gets to stay open but restaurant out door dining is closed.

There is a clear double standard here. Nobody is getting sick in Mary's candle shop or Doug's coffee hut. They are getting sick in Walmart.
There IS a double standard, and for the love of all that is good and holy, don't take my leaping on you to shut up about 'anti-masking' as any kind of blessing for big businesses to get ahead of small business in a time of crises. The problem is that this double standard 'class war' is a DIFFERENT issue from the virus which is simply manifesting itself in new ways AS the virus changes our behaviors across the board. Yes, cry out against the double standard, I don't mind that, I doubt anyone here minds that, but don't equate the two as some sort of either/or problem. There is no 'wear a mask OR Class Warfare' The fact that Corporate assholes are allowed to do whatever they want FAR eclipses anything as situational as whom should be wearing a mask or being shut down for refusing compliance. They should ALL be shut down for refusing compliance yes, the fact that SONY can get away with it has nothing to do with MASK liability, and everything to do with American politicians looking to corporations for their next doggy treat.

So again, don't take this as me telling you to shut up about the injustices of corporate America... the ONLY thing I take exception to here, is your appearance to be arguing for an excuse to not have to wear a mask. You can wear a mask, protect yourself and others from the spread, AND complain when Mary's Pub gets closed down because of her bad Mask policy while Mcdonalds next door wasn't closed down while practicing the same policy... they should BOTH be shut down, that is the argument. Mary's pub is, after all, more likely to be able to get BACK on its feet when this is all over if the McDonalds next door didn't have the opportunity to steal all of her customers behavioral habits while she was down for the same violations that McDonalds is taking... but simply put, NEITHER of them should be allowed to operate as unsafe hubs for the virus.

Just follow the guidelines. If a business seems to be following the guidelines and still gets closed down, bring THAT up? Show how they followed the rules, then show how the assholes still operating are NOT. That's all GREAT! Just STOP using it as a talking point AGAINST wearing a mask?
Last edited by Femina 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Bert

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago This still with the costs to society of not wearing seatbelts a much less significant secondary argument. So mask-wearing in the face (!) of a pandemic ought to be a lot more compelling given the fact that it clearly helps protect others... except we haven't done those decades of seatbelt homework. The "fact" and "clearly" are heavily contested by a not-insignificant portion of the public.

And I'm sure it's clear to many of us, but not all of us, that the size of that portion of the public isn't just a function of how new the idea of mask-wearing as disease-prevention is to most of the (American/Western) public, but of the dysfunction in the systems that inform, educate, and build consensus.
I kind of assumed that was what you were going for with the earlier post, based on prior submissions of yours, but the post was a bit opaque and that one sentence was ripe for being misinterpreted. Thanks for clearing it up. One thing you mentioned in this latest post caught my eye.

"The anti-mask argument seems bent on denying any measurable possibility of severe negative consequences for others, to the point that freedom to not wear a mask is so important that the existing baseline of scientific understanding is not sufficient to demonstrate enough possibility to violate that freedom."

I doubt if most anti-maskers get that far in their "thinking" on the topic. It's mostly a feral snarl against smarty-pantses telling them what to do, with very little weighing of pros and cons.
Imagineer
Overlord
Overlord
Posts: 614
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Imagineer »

Mr. X wrote: 3 years ago The real issue is the closing down of businesses based mostly along class lines. Bob's furniture store has to close but Walmart gets to stay open. Ralph's BBQ shack has to close but McDonalds with its 10 employees packed into the back shoulder to shoulder gets to stay open. Movie and video production considered an "essential business" gets to stay open but restaurant out door dining is closed.

There is a clear double standard here. Nobody is getting sick in Mary's candle shop or Doug's coffee hut. They are getting sick in Walmart.

As Jimmy Dorn said, this is the largest wealth transfer UPWARD in human history and I would add the biggest group holding down the innocent while their lives are destroyed and defending large corporations staying open are the same POSERS who claim to be liberal.

This is class warfare.
First, AMEN, we're in a class war and suffering upward wealth transfer.

But no, it ain't just the pandemic, it's America by design. It ain't a bug, it's a feature.

Mary's candle shop, Doug's coffee hut, Walmart... What about Carl's dive bar, and Liaisons nightclu--err, bar, err, restaurant and bar, err, what do we need to call it to keep the party going?

But seriously...

Walmart is where people buy staples. Candles are only a staple if you've let the electrical grid go to shit; coffee from a hut and food from restaurants are luxuries, unless one wants to argue we have to work so long and hard for our money that we don't have time to brew our coffee or cook our meals, and that sounds like a systemic problem built before the pandemic. So too the fact that the vast majority of us buy our groceries and other staples from huge corporations instead of from Marys and Dougs.

But maybe we could all just work for Walmart and Amazon. If only they paid better and provided the good healthcare that the government doesn't. Then we could afford Walmart and Amazon stock and the circle jerk of quantitative easing and almost-free money wouldn't keep transferring wealth upward. BTW, is Walmart giving a tax cut employee bonus this year?

It almost feels like political distraction to call out pandemic measures in particular as wealth transfer class warfare.

But yes, we need to address the fact that the most vulnerable businesses and the most vulnerable people aren't just inconvenienced or stressed but going hungry and homeless and dying. With some dramatic short-term relief because our social safety net is in such (partially deliberate) shambles, necessarily including relief to that social safety net because shambles or no it's still the vehicle for delivering much relief, and preferably without even more upward wealth transfer. And then maybe we ought to take stock of how we got here.
Bert

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

There damn well better be a post-pandemic public audit of who got what and when. There is just no possible way Donald Trump and his sweaty sycophants didn't massively abuse the first bailout.
Imagineer
Overlord
Overlord
Posts: 614
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Imagineer »

Addendum: mandates for openings and closings have gotten hard to keep up with, in part I believe because officials are trying to be more nuanced -- but there's a limit to how nuanced the government can get.

The conditions of fast food workers varies greatly by kitchen design. Watch "The Founder" and be horrified by that tightly-packed back-to-back turn-and-cough design, but the fast food joints I've both worked in and patronized mostly evolved to each-person-at-their-station with more than six feet between and essentially no crossover -- even station-to-counter handoff is distanced or walled. The scary exception is the super-high-volume store where multiple counter workers are constantly crossing over each other. I would hope that local health officials set rules for those stores that force workflow tweaks to keep them safe. There's one high-volume store I've seen where that appears to be the case. It was one of those two-window stores where they'd long ago closed the separate pay window because the usual volume wasn't quite high enough to dedicate an employee; now the second window is open -- and the balance sheet is probably not as happy...

The local restaurants weren't forced to close -- but if the business model was closely-packed indoor tables and long shouted conversations, they had to beg their patrons to order takeout instead, or put some tables outside according to more spaced-out guidelines, and they can't all make that work. The restaurant business has a high failure rate to begin with, and an outsized share of worker exploitation to boot -- and the same corporate invasion problem that has wiped out so many small businesses in other retail segments. It was interesting to see every rejuvenated small downtown restaurant row convert its head-in street parking or even block off whole streets to make space for outdoor tables and awnings and heaters. I wonder how much of that was city vs association vs individual investment -- and how many beyond-downtown restaurants were disadvantaged.

And now there's a growing trend in delivery-only restaurants run from meal factories in converted warehouses. This opportunity is of course much more easily exploited by those with lots of reserve capital... who can give mom-and-pop restauranteurs the opportunity to risk their life savings on launching a boutique delivery-only restaurant brand using rented meal factory facilities or even subbing out the whole thing. Surely the best ideas won't get copied and undercut by the factory owners.

The work-at-home shift, for those lucky enough to be "information" workers, will also have its longer-term consequences. The 1% won't be affected, but for the rest of us... Why pay a salary based on a Seattle cost of living if you can do your job just as well from Spokane? So here's your pay cut. Actually, you work for this new subsidiary now -- here's your reduced benefits package. But at least you didn't get laid off like Sean and Andrea. Austerity measures. BTW, did you take home a red stapler? I'm gonna need you to send that back.

Movie and video production isn't open merely on the premise that it's essential. In fact it's not OPEN at all because it's not a retail business. It can OPERATE because it can apply health and safety protocols that manage the risk. Of course it gets to make that case because it's a powerful industry, but that power also employs a lot of working-class craftspeople (many of whom are unionized).

The porn industry is an interesting enclave. The core business was already set up for regular testing and tracing; I think they just dialed up the frequency to before-every-gig for performers.
bushwackerbob
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 791
Joined: 10 years ago
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by bushwackerbob »

Bert wrote: 3 years ago There damn well better be a post-pandemic public audit of who got what and when. There is just no possible way Donald Trump and his sweaty sycophants didn't massively abuse the first bailout.
I think there was such a rush to get these monies out there that a lot of people who unjustly received financial benefit from that bailout. There is already quite a few examples of places that received bailout money and then proceeded to lay folks off, which I thought was the point of this bailout. I am sure that there are quite a few rich bastards out there, both red and blue staters out there who unjustly pocketed the proceeds of this bailout. That kind of bullshit happens when there is this overwhelming rush to get the money out there, that proper oversight of how and who this money is handed out to was a casualty in this process.
Bert

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

It's not the accidental stuff that I'm talking about. I'm sure every country that rushed aid money to people made mistakes. It certainly happened in Canada, and I'm fine with that. They'll straighten a lot of that stuff out once the emergency has passed. No, I'm talking about politicians purposely using the desperate need and massive sums available to funnel money to undeserving entities, either to curry favor, repay a debt or profit themselves. I find it almost inconceivable that a grifter like Trump didn't raid the cookie jar. I just hope a team of forensic accountants can piece together the trail of crumbs.
User avatar
tallyho
Ambassador
Ambassador
Posts: 5390
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Land of No Hope and Past Glories

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

It's happened several times in the UK with the scum that is Johnsons cabinet, - for example a multi million pound contract for PPE given to a company owned by close friends of cabinet ministers with no external tender and £140m of public money later a load of sub standard PPE equipment is delivered that is unusable because it doesn't meet the NHS minimum safety/ quality standards. It's despicable.
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

I am here to help one and all enjoy this site, so if you have any questions or feel you are being trolled please contact me (Hit the 'CONTACT' little speech bubble below my Avatar).
User avatar
tallyho
Ambassador
Ambassador
Posts: 5390
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Land of No Hope and Past Glories

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

I see Sesame Street are doing an ABC of the coronavirus for kids. It comes to something when literally muppets know more about dealing with the Virus than Trump. Maybe Trump will watch it instead of playing golf. Might help him understand the total fuck up he's made of it all, and it will be pitched at a level he might understand.

London is to start mass testing school kids.
In UK they have a tier system of restrictions (tier 1-3, 3 being top but its applicable at a county level and has just been chaotic. The system is to be reviewed on Wednesday
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

I am here to help one and all enjoy this site, so if you have any questions or feel you are being trolled please contact me (Hit the 'CONTACT' little speech bubble below my Avatar).
Dazzle1
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 1817
Joined: 10 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Dazzle1 »

tallyho wrote: 3 years ago I see Sesame Street are doing an ABC of the coronavirus for kids. It comes to something when literally muppets know more about dealing with the Virus than Trump. Maybe Trump will watch it instead of playing golf. Might help him understand the total fuck up he's made of it all, and it will be pitched at a level he might understand.

London is to start mass testing school kids.
In UK they have a tier system of restrictions (tier 1-3, 3 being top but its applicable at a county level and has just been chaotic. The system is to be reviewed on Wednesday
Maybe when the Dems learn about working with other people from the muppets and learning about dealing with the virus and what not to close down, we will all be safer

How many dead due to Pelosi's refusal to pass a Covid only relief bill

How many business closed to due to illogical shutdowns by Dems governors

Maybe you should learn the facts on how Trump's actions will save millions of lives, with no cooperation from the Dems
User avatar
tallyho
Ambassador
Ambassador
Posts: 5390
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Land of No Hope and Past Glories

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

Sure please explain to me how golfing helps, would love to hear it.
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

I am here to help one and all enjoy this site, so if you have any questions or feel you are being trolled please contact me (Hit the 'CONTACT' little speech bubble below my Avatar).
Dazzle1
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 1817
Joined: 10 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Dazzle1 »

tallyho wrote: 3 years ago Sure please explain to me how golfing helps, would love to hear it.
Tell me how eating $12.00 ice cream and violating SF regulations has helped

Trump is going to save millions of lives while Pelosi did not care if they lived or died
User avatar
batgirl1969
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 2462
Joined: 15 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by batgirl1969 »

Just an FYI girls....getting a creampie can cause you to die....be sure to handle only wrapped ding dongs and avoid their cream filling!! 😥
Bert

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

"President Trump held a news conference Tuesday to celebrate the vaccine and credit his own work in making the advances possible.

In particular, Trump has repeatedly credited the White House’s Operation Warp Speed initiative with providing the money and resources the government and private companies need to bring a vaccine to the population quickly." - WaPo

Donald Trump, naturally, is taking full credit for the Pfizer vaccine. " I pushed very hard". "Operation Warp Speed". But there's a tiny problem. The vaccine was developed by bioNTech, a German company. BioNTech started work on the vaccine in January, when Trump was saying "We have it totally under control". They refused to accept U.S. government money. Operation Warp speed had absolutely no involvement with the vaccine that is now shipping around the country. None. Zero. In fact, this past summer Pfizer, who are distributing the vaccine for BioNTech, approached Trump's administration multiple times asking them to commit to buying more doses and Trump refused.

Watching the charlatan try to take credit now is nauseating, but unsurprising. The spotlight's gotta be on Trump at all times. If the facts don't warrant it, then fuck the facts.
User avatar
tallyho
Ambassador
Ambassador
Posts: 5390
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Land of No Hope and Past Glories

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

Dazzle1 wrote: 3 years ago
tallyho wrote: 3 years ago Sure please explain to me how golfing helps, would love to hear it.

Trump is going to save millions of lives
You are correct he will, the second he walks out of office.

I would contend that having AN ice cream and the, what 20 MINS?, that entails, has less of an impact than playing 30 plus rounds of golf at hours at a time, instead of actually doing your job, and putting all in your enyourage at a higher level of risk than if you had followed YOUR OWN HEALTH ADVISORS MESSAGE to stay at home as much as possible and only undertake essential journeys.

You know, for such a life- saving guy he does a brilliant impression of someone who doesn't give a fuck about the people dumb enough to believe a habitual liar, and whether those people live or die.

Almost a third of a million dead and he will probable claim he has single handedly revived the US grave digging industry.

Think of that. A THIRD OF A MILLION.
I hope you didn't know any of them.
If you did my condolences.for you.

And at a stroke, in that one sentence I've shown an infinite amount more compassion than this man is ever capable of.

Wear a mask everyone
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

I am here to help one and all enjoy this site, so if you have any questions or feel you are being trolled please contact me (Hit the 'CONTACT' little speech bubble below my Avatar).
Dazzle1
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 1817
Joined: 10 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Dazzle1 »

tallyho wrote: 3 years ago
Dazzle1 wrote: 3 years ago
tallyho wrote: 3 years ago Sure please explain to me how golfing helps, would love to hear it.

Trump is going to save millions of lives
You are correct he will, the second he walks out of office.

I would contend that having AN ice cream and the, what 20 MINS?, that entails, has less of an impact than playing 30 plus rounds of golf at hours at a time, instead of actually doing your job, and putting all in your enyourage at a higher level of risk than if you had followed YOUR OWN HEALTH ADVISORS MESSAGE to stay at home as much as possible and only undertake essential journeys.

You know, for such a life- saving guy he does a brilliant impression of someone who doesn't give a fuck about the people dumb enough to believe a habitual liar, and whether those people live or die.

Almost a third of a million dead and he will probable claim he has single handedly revived the US grave digging industry.

Think of that. A THIRD OF A MILLION.
I hope you didn't know any of them.
If you did my condolences.for you.

be honest you hate Trump. You probaly opposed his deal with Israel, any pardons or commutations. the economy which improved after the Obama disaster, killing terrorist like Solemani etc

And at a stroke, in that one sentence I've shown an infinite amount more compassion than this man is ever capable of.

Wear a mask everyone
User avatar
tallyho
Ambassador
Ambassador
Posts: 5390
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Land of No Hope and Past Glories

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

I do hate the man. I didn't realise that wasn't obvious.

His incompetence has killed hundreds of thousands and put friends and family of mine in America at risk. He's an obvious criminal and an habitual liar who has done nothing but break the rules put in place to limit corruption in that office since the day he came into power

Only an idiot wouldn't want to see such evil stopped.

Look at his current attempts to stop democracy - are you happy that the GoP is a lap dog to a man who has told 37,000 lies or untrue statements in 4 years and has 26 sexual assault claims against him and openly boasted about molesting women on videos? Without the various frauds he has pulled both before and whilst in office. He's turned the party of Lincoln into a leadership cult.

On the rare occasions he does something right like demanding Nato contributors honour their commitments I will say that it is the right thing to do and good on him for doing it. But such things are few and far between. The recognition of Jerusalem in the face of the UN peace mandate caused two weeks of rioting and killed 68 people and has sown deep mistrust for years to come. His betrayal of the Kurdish allies was another beaut of a foreign policy decision by a man who can't run a bath let alone a country.

Once he loses presidential protections he will be going to jail. Of course he's done nothing wrong and has only spoken of pardoning himself and getting pardons for his family because... Er... Er...

BUT he doesn't need your concern or empathy he just needs your dollars. So give your concern and empathy to what this thread is about, the virus and its victims.

So yes I will be honest and say I hate the man.
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

I am here to help one and all enjoy this site, so if you have any questions or feel you are being trolled please contact me (Hit the 'CONTACT' little speech bubble below my Avatar).
Imagineer
Overlord
Overlord
Posts: 614
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Imagineer »

Don't bet on him going to jail.

He has a $200 million war chest, maybe more depending on whether or not the GOP can actually extract their share.

That affords a lot of lawyering.

He'll stall civil judgments for years before settling cheap; he'll delay criminal verdicts for years too, and if he does live long enough to run out of appeals, he'll claim he's too frail, or the finality will trigger a stroke.
User avatar
tallyho
Ambassador
Ambassador
Posts: 5390
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Land of No Hope and Past Glories

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

Well he has $400m dollars of personally guaranteed loans due up in the next year and all his golf courses are losing money hand over fist so the $200m that gullible fools have given to a supposed billionaire will come in handy, no doubt.
See Barr has gone tonight. What a great loss to the justice system. An attorney General who lied about a mythical court case in Texas that meant his own department were forced to deny such a case had ever been filed. Legend.

BUT enough of Trump and his cronies.

Good to see the vaccine being rolled out in US today. My friend is a hospital worker here and had it yesterday, and she's fine. Next follow up injection is in 18 days for her. She's had no ill effects.

I hope you guys get it ASAP and then there's an end to this apocalypse.
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

I am here to help one and all enjoy this site, so if you have any questions or feel you are being trolled please contact me (Hit the 'CONTACT' little speech bubble below my Avatar).
Imagineer
Overlord
Overlord
Posts: 614
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Imagineer »

It seems like it'll be more than six months before it's widely distributed in the US. Maybe nine months. Another 100 million early-production doses would have been nice.

I think we might see another surge in hospitalizations in spring -- once the most vulnerable population has been vaccinated, I bet a lot of folks will let pandemic fatigue get the better of them and let their guard down. I hope we'll have a better understanding of the complications of COVID-19 soon so we can make more informed decisions about risks.
Bert

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

I've read where they're homing in on several human genetic markers associated with getting severe covid. Progress is being made on more than the vaccine front, but I should still lose some weight. Bizarrely, being overweight is a comorbidity.
User avatar
tallyho
Ambassador
Ambassador
Posts: 5390
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Land of No Hope and Past Glories

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

I heard they had identified a first mutation (rproven) of the virus, which whilst it isn't a surprise as that's what these things do is still a worry.
Could have more virulent strains all too soon.
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

I am here to help one and all enjoy this site, so if you have any questions or feel you are being trolled please contact me (Hit the 'CONTACT' little speech bubble below my Avatar).
User avatar
tallyho
Ambassador
Ambassador
Posts: 5390
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Land of No Hope and Past Glories

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

9 dead in Wales yesterday, 2981 so far., 602 hospitalizations yesterday. Its small numbers but we got a small population.
There's a debate about govt allowing three family groups to gather at xmas. A lot think it's a group too many
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

I am here to help one and all enjoy this site, so if you have any questions or feel you are being trolled please contact me (Hit the 'CONTACT' little speech bubble below my Avatar).
User avatar
Mr. X
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 4677
Joined: 12 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Mr. X »

Last edited by Mr. X 3 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
Dazzle1
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 1817
Joined: 10 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Dazzle1 »

Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago It seems like it'll be more than six months before it's widely distributed in the US. Maybe nine months. Another 100 million early-production doses would have been nice.

I think we might see another surge in hospitalizations in spring -- once the most vulnerable population has been vaccinated, I bet a lot of folks will let pandemic fatigue get the better of them and let their guard down. I hope we'll have a better understanding of the complications of COVID-19 soon so we can make more informed decisions about risks.
In Massachusetts, I can say almost everyone is obeying the rules

What I am seeing from colleague and feel myself is anger. They are unreasonable closings by people like politicians with no medical degrees and back up. These are people who unlike the healthcare professionals and business community have made no sacrifices

Interior dining is not a problem

My useless rep Katherine Clark is wasting time on use less environmental iniatives
User avatar
Mr. X
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 4677
Joined: 12 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Mr. X »

Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago
Walmart is where people buy staples.
Special pleading. Its also where you buy tupper ware crap.

Basically large corporations get richer and put small ones out of business. Walmart could deliver everything to curb JUST LIKE a lot of grocery stores are forced to do.

People promoting a position that results in the largest wealth transfer upward in human history and the conglomeration of power into a small oligarchy of large corporations while simultaneously force closing small businesses. All under the guise of a crisis and people deciding what is essential and what isn't.

How is making large corporations wealthier and the only players in the market related to any progressive or liberal principle?

This also disproportionately effects minorities. What to immigrants do when they come into the US? Start small businesses. Who's being shut down the most? Small businesses?
coffee from a hut and food from restaurants are luxuries
So is coffee from Starbucks and Tully's?! Are you crapping me here? So is Taco Bell. So is McDonalds. Seriously?
But maybe we could all just work for Walmart and Amazon.
Yeah and then nationalize them cause that ALWAYS works out well. See my comment above about how the f*ck does this have to do with any liberal or progressive principle.
Damselbinder

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Damselbinder »

Surely the principle isn't that hard to understand in a crisis.

"Right we need to shut things down because of the pandemic."
"Well we can't shut everything down, otherwise how are people going to buy food, and clothes for their children."
"Oh shit you're right. How can we keep as few places as possible open?"
"Probably going to have to be the really big superstores and stuff."
"Hmm, okay."

Of course, what I would then say is, given that this means that suddenly it's just the people who happen to be the ones already in a position of massive economic advantage reaping the benefits, they should be MASSIVELY taxed in order to protect the livelihoods of the businesses (smaller) that are being forced to close. That's not happening. That sucks. Small businesses are going under. That's really, really unfair.

But it doesn't mean that the overall argument about keeping big places open to buy staples is a bad argument. You call it special pleading, but you're interpreting that in such a way as to mean that no exceptions can ever be made for anything ever.

"Ma'am, you were speeding."
"Officer, I was being pursued by a psychotic in another car who was firing a gun at me and trying to murder me. I was fleeing for my life."
See?

Now, if you could show that actually it DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE if you close small places vs. big places, THAT would be another matter. But that would require some kind of empirical proof. Maybe such proof exists. If so, great. I'm no fan of big business either. But if not, then the immediate principle of treating superstores (etc) as essential services isn't all that crazy, is it?
Bert

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

This conversation is getting really stupid. If your small business is forced to close due to the pandemic, the government should reimburse you. That's what is happening in Canada. If America's massively incompetent federal government would just do their damn job, small businesses wouldn't be destroyed.

Twisting the repercussions of this pandemic into support for someone's twisted political philosophy is really quite annoying.
bushwackerbob
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 791
Joined: 10 years ago
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by bushwackerbob »

I am not sure what the solution is, but to me, the key to this whole mess is that the state and local governments in creating these lockdown measures are basically choosing the winners and losers in this age of COVID, the winners being these big box stores that are able to stay open whereas these mom and pop establishments and smaller size businesses are prevented from doing so or the measures prohibit some of these smaller businesses from being able to survive financially. The reasons for why some places are able to open and some must remained closed seem fairly arbitrary to me at times.
Bert

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

Maybe that's because politics is influencing the decisions. Where I live the provincial health officer has the final say. She sticks to the science, asks for cooperation first, and mandates if necessary. Businesses that are forced to close are entitled to financial relief from the government. It's really not that complicated if people and government just work together for the common good.
Imagineer
Overlord
Overlord
Posts: 614
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Imagineer »

I don't know of jurisdictions trying to keep the number of places open to a minimum. I doubt that's a criterium. Indeed, with pickup-only, social distancing and limited-occupancy restrictions, establishments aren't able to serve as many customers.

If someone's got info about a Walmart and a supermarket in the same jurisdiction where the supermarket is limited to pickup-only and Walmart isn't, and it's not the supermarket unable or unwilling to comply with the same requirements as Walmart, feel free to share specifics, but I'm not taking somebody's word for it. Same with Doug's vs Starbucks, and fast food vs other restaurants. I smell apocryphal apples and oranges.

Of course, equal restrictions don't have equal outcomes -- large businesses have resource advantages. Strong aid programs could counter that, but when the system is already tipped so far to large business advantage, you're asking an awful lot of emergency measures -- not unlike providing no healthcare but emergency room care.
User avatar
Femina
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 1493
Joined: 14 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Femina »

I can say that basically no store in my area has been shut down... except the Chinese restaurant which I believe was the only 'back room kitchen' place in my area. EVERY other place is open, all with variable levels of caution taken, but be they the Walmarts, the Save Marts, Subways or the the privatized Pizza Barn, they are ALL open... I think the only places that are being more severely monitored must be in the super high density population zones like Anaheim, L.A. or New York, New York (cause even the 'city' nearby doesn't seem to have any major closures just by my notation)

I know its happening in some areas though, I wish I could say for certain if I was seeing any objectively preferential treatment by corporate stores over like... the local grocer... but our local grocery store is ALSO open... even with some serious roadwork going on making getting into the parking lot a hassle... but I honestly do not know how widespread this issue is and fear I can't offer up much more than my assertions that smaller stores shouldn't just be allowed to remain open if they are acting as Covid hotspots.... the solution by my perspective unfortunately is more 'close BOTH' over 'quit showing preferential treatment and let them both stay open' (assuming of course that they are both not following guidelines and acting as Covid Hotspots to begin with)
Dazzle1
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 1817
Joined: 10 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Dazzle1 »

Bert wrote: 3 years ago This conversation is getting really stupid. If your small business is forced to close due to the pandemic, the government should reimburse you. That's what is happening in Canada. If America's massively incompetent federal government would just do their damn job, small businesses wouldn't be destroyed.

Twisting the repercussions of this pandemic into support for someone's twisted political philosophy is really quite annoying.
The Fed passed a bill, but in Mass ,CA and NY, the aid when to politically connected companies and none to the self employed
Imagineer
Overlord
Overlord
Posts: 614
Joined: 13 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Imagineer »

Dazzle1 wrote: 3 years ago The Fed passed a bill, but in Mass ,CA and NY, the aid when to politically connected companies and none to the self employed
Source -- especially for "none to the self employed."
Did no funds go to politically connected companies in any other states?
Dazzle1
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 1817
Joined: 10 years ago

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Dazzle1 »

Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago
Dazzle1 wrote: 3 years ago The Fed passed a bill, but in Mass ,CA and NY, the aid when to politically connected companies and none to the self employed
Source -- especially for "none to the self employed."
Did no funds go to politically connected companies in any other states?
likely but there have been news reports on these three states or how much went to terrorist support Ilhan Omar's husband

here is the link on PUA, yes it is from earlier this year but that is when self employed were not being permitted to work

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/unemployme ... truggling/
User avatar
tallyho
Ambassador
Ambassador
Posts: 5390
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Land of No Hope and Past Glories

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

:thumbup:
Thanks to all parties for keeping this exchange of views civil
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

I am here to help one and all enjoy this site, so if you have any questions or feel you are being trolled please contact me (Hit the 'CONTACT' little speech bubble below my Avatar).
User avatar
tallyho
Ambassador
Ambassador
Posts: 5390
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Land of No Hope and Past Glories

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

A damning indictment of BoJos incompetent and corrupt government
IMG-20201216-WA0013.jpg
IMG-20201216-WA0013.jpg (51.68 KiB) Viewed 3003 times
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

I am here to help one and all enjoy this site, so if you have any questions or feel you are being trolled please contact me (Hit the 'CONTACT' little speech bubble below my Avatar).
User avatar
tallyho
Ambassador
Ambassador
Posts: 5390
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Land of No Hope and Past Glories

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

Inside the U.K.’s Pandemic Spending: Waste, Negligence and Cronyism https://nyti.ms/3h2BNq4


See told ya.

55 dead in Wales yesterday, and Covid is the cause of 20% of all deaths in Wales in month of November.
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

I am here to help one and all enjoy this site, so if you have any questions or feel you are being trolled please contact me (Hit the 'CONTACT' little speech bubble below my Avatar).
Bert

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

Sadly, The U.S. has recorded the same number of new cases in the last two days as Canada has experienced in the entire pandemic.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests