Living in the shadow of the corona virus

[tallyho]

And you are so TDS addled you blame Trump for a China developed virus.

No one blames Trump FOR the virus. America's half assed response and throwing away the mechanisms you had in place to stop it, and the subsequent sky rocketing death toll, that's TOTALLY on him.

The idea that it would somehow have been worse under Obama, who actually set up the Pandemic response unit and the playbook for that response, is farcical. Having endured the H1N1 outbreak, responded to it with a team to minimise a future crisis, and then when you encounter said future crisis YOU DON'T USE THE TEAM YOU SET UP?!!!!
Common on! Only an imbecile would do that and whatever you think of Obama, he was not an imbecile.
America doesn't elect imbeciles as its Preside- oh wait, scrap that last bit.

[Imagineer]

He didn't create the virus. Like he didn't create a hurricane.
But his toolset is that of a stupid five year old.

[bushwackerbob]

And you are so TDS addled you blame Trump for a China developed virus.

No one blames Trump FOR the virus. America's half assed response and throwing away the mechanisms you had in place to stop it, and the subsequent sky rocketing death toll, that's TOTALLY on him.

The idea that it would somehow have been worse under Obama, who actually set up the Pandemic response unit and the playbook for that response, is farcical. Having endured the H1N1 outbreak, responded to it with a team to minimise a future crisis, and then when you encounter said future crisis YOU DON'T USE THE TEAM YOU SET UP?!!!!
Common on! Only an imbecile would do that and whatever you think of Obama, he was not an imbecile.
America doesn't elect imbeciles as its Preside- oh wait, scrap that last bit.

I am glad you do not blame Trump for this virus. I do not blame Trump for this virus. I blame Trump for his handling and how he reacted to this virus. I do think there are a lot of people out there however who do blame Trump for this pandemic. I almost feel that Trump's inept handling of this virus has in a way let China off the hook, that precious little attention has been paid to the country of origin for this horrendous pandemic, of how China tried to cover this thing up initially, even trying to put blame on the U.S military. I do not know if this is factually true, but I heard a story that said that researchers were studying Google Earth found an unusually high spike in hospitalizations in the Wuhan province way back in August of 2019. If this is true, then it means that they spent months trying to cover this thing up with nary a word to the outside world. Imagine the blowback and universal condemnation if the U.S had created this virus and had spread across the globe. There would be demands for financial restitution for the billions and trillions of dollars this virus has caused nations, condemnations for the extreme loss of life this pandemic has caused.

[Bert]

When it comes to powerful nations and questions of global influence and power, they are all bad actors. The U.S. went to war with Iraq for terrible, unsupportable reasons. That action destabilized the region, leading to all kinds of unintended consequences. Russia's invasion of Afghanistan had similar results.

This all speaks to a philosophical question about morality, about the notion of right and wrong. Morality is an invention. We thought it up. The concept of right and wrong doesn't exist in most of the animal world. Some higher order mammals that live in groups do enforce some behavioural standards that could be interpreted as a kind of morality, but mostly it's a human invention. Civilization requires universally accepted standards of conduct. The primary function of religion is to enforce those standards. Same with modern legal systems. If large groups of people are going to live together without chaos, there have to be rules. But as history has shown with unceasing regularity, the powerful can avoid accountability for breaking the rules. All the more so for governments, who actually get to make the rules.

I'm not saying China isn't to blame for hiding the virus outbreak. I'm saying their actions are consistent with powerful nations or individuals acting immorally simply because they can.

[Imagineer]

I heard a story that aliens developed the virus, and China made a deal with them to test it in exchange for early access to the vaccine -- but surprise! The aliens didn't hold up their end of the deal. If this is true, imagine the blowback and universal condemnation if it had been the US practicing the art of the alien deal. We'd be sued for trillions of Yuan. I bet the aliens wrecked the Arecibo telescope to keep the coverup going.

Who are these people that blame our President for the pandemic? Seriously. For the magnitude of the epidemic in the US, sure, but the fact that the novel coronavirus spread around the world? Come on.

And I'm not saying that it couldn't have emerged earlier than China's official December story -- but it wasn't a weapon, ain't nobody gettin' no reparations from them, and big capitalism has had just about enough of this trade war foolishness.

People can be contagious for days before showing symptoms, and most of the infected would think it's the flu. We trot the globe through crowded airports and we were better at shaking hands than washing them. No conspiracy required.

[tallyho]

I hadn't heard that about finding the hospitalizations spike via Google earth, but just logically they told world about it in January, that's likely to be at very earliest a few weeks into the outbreak, largely because it occurred in the winter and the symptoms are very flu like and the fatalities are highest among those who are elderly or have a pre-existing condition. So it follows that the first outbreak and deaths are likely to be chalked up as slightly higher death rates from winter flu outbreak than normal. It would then take a persistent increase over time for them to realise this was different given the two week incubation period for the illness. So I would estimate its likely to have been early to mid November at the latest when it started.
Given the likelihood that they would have tried to keep the news localised, and that lack of awareness allowed it to spread, is it possible it was around as early as August? Yes certainly possible. Was it? Trickier to answer.
I wouldnt be surprised.
It will be interesting to see what the investigation reveals. I think it's highly likely we will hear they were aware of it this time last year, it will be interesting to see how much the Chinese admit to. They aren't good at plausible cover stories (look at the Uighurs).
That said I don't think it's a deliberately released disease. The Chinese have profited the most from It, true, by buying up the stock when it crashed, but that's what they do.

It's no coincidence that the Chinese character for 'disaster' is the same as the one for 'opportunity'

Note I thought they admitted the outbreak in January, if it is December as said in post above then nudge my time line back.

[bushwackerbob]

I hadn't heard that about finding the hospitalizations spike via Google earth, but just logically they told world about it in January, that's likely to be at very earliest a few weeks into the outbreak, largely because it occurred in the winter and the symptoms are very flu like and the fatalities are highest among those who are elderly or have a pre-existing condition. So it follows that the first outbreak and deaths are likely to be chalked up as slightly higher death rates from winter flu outbreak than normal. It would then take a persistent increase over time for them to realise this was different given the two week incubation period for the illness. So I would estimate its likely to have been early to mid November at the latest when it started.
Given the likelihood that they would have tried to keep the news localised, and that lack of awareness allowed it to spread, is it possible it was around as early as August? Yes certainly possible. Was it? Trickier to answer.
I wouldnt be surprised.
It will be interesting to see what the investigation reveals. I think it's highly likely we will hear they were aware of it this time last year, it will be interesting to see how much the Chinese admit to. They aren't good at plausible cover stories (look at the Uighurs).
That said I don't think it's a deliberately released disease. The Chinese have profited the most from It, true, by buying up the stock when it crashed, but that's what they do.

It's no coincidence that the Chinese character for 'disaster' is the same as the one for 'opportunity'

Note I thought they admitted the outbreak in January, if it is December as said in post above then nudge my time line back.

I found the story on the BBC site. Sorry, I am not computer literate enough to link to the story but I am sure you can find it if a dummy like I can. The story said that "Harvard researchers say that satellite images show an increase in traffic outside 5 hospitals in the Chinese city of Wuhan from late August to December. The traffic spike coincided with a rise in online searches for information on symptoms like cough and diarrhoea". The study has not been peer reviewed.

[Damselbinder]

China is an authoritarian police state. I have no problem believing they handled it fuckily. That's fine. I'm not about to defend the fucking Chinese government.

I just don't want people using it as an excuse to exonerate their own governments' mishandling. If someone starts a fire, that's their fault. But if you try to put the fire out with petrol, that's YOUR fault.

[Damselbinder]

When it comes to powerful nations and questions of global influence and power, they are all bad actors. The U.S. went to war with Iraq for terrible, unsupportable reasons. That action destabilized the region, leading to all kinds of unintended consequences. Russia's invasion of Afghanistan had similar results.

This all speaks to a philosophical question about morality, about the notion of right and wrong. Morality is an invention. We thought it up. The concept of right and wrong doesn't exist in most of the animal world. Some higher order mammals that live in groups do enforce some behavioural standards that could be interpreted as a kind of morality, but mostly it's a human invention. Civilization requires universally accepted standards of conduct. The primary function of religion is to enforce those standards. Same with modern legal systems. If large groups of people are going to live together without chaos, there have to be rules. But as history has shown with unceasing regularity, the powerful can avoid accountability for breaking the rules. All the more so for governments, who actually get to make the rules.

I'm not saying China isn't to blame for hiding the virus outbreak. I'm saying their actions are consistent with powerful nations or individuals acting immorally simply because they can.

This is getting way off topic, but just because I think what you said about morality is interesting: specifically what you said about religion. I think it's probably illegitimate to talk about religion having a "primary function" - it's not ridiculous to say that religion's primary function is to be a vehicle for certain ontological claims about the nature of reality. BUT - obviously ethics are a massive component of all world faiths today. Nevertheless, was it always so? I don't think the paganism of antiquity was about enforcing ethical standards. You don't get too many genuine ethicists of antiquity saying that the gods will punish the bad and reward the good: they'll reward those who honour them and punish those who profane them, perhaps, but that's not quite the same thing.

Nevertheless, even those forms of religion still had a role analagous to "enforcing morality": there weren't too many moral components to the Imperial Cult in Rome, but it sure as hell served to legitimise and reinforce the power of the state.

[Femina]

biogen conference a super spreader. The virus can determine politics

And you are so TDS addled you blame Trump for a China developed virus.

Stop blaming the Chinese for Nature. Nobody developes viruses in real life, you know why? Cause that's stupid Umbrella corporation nonsense. Developing a virus is like playing Russian roulette with six loaded barrels and no other players. There's literally no benefit to it.

Nobody blames Trump FOR the Virus. Nobody is responsible for a NATURAL DISASTER. What you get blamed for is your response to a natural disaster...

but for Christ sake, whimpering about China developing the virus is the stupidest thing in the world. It's a conspiracy theory orchestrated ENTIRELY to politicize a natural disaster and the only thing one accomplishes by bringing it up in conversation as though it's a real and true thing is to waste time bitching about how bad China is while ignoring the relevant situation and workshopping solutions.

China didn't invent hurricanes, China didn't invent old age, China sure as shit didn't develop a Covid virus. Resident Evil movies are fictional. Stop looking for someone to blame for a natural disaster and start worrying about what you can do to protect yourself and others.

[bushwackerbob]

Inadvertently, sure. China did indeed create and invent COVID-19 though, no question about it. This was quintessentially a human, man made disaster, not mother nature. A decidedly unnatural disaster for sure.

[Damselbinder]

Inadvertently, sure. China did indeed create and invent COVID-19 though, no question about it. This was quintessentially a human, man made disaster, not mother nature. A decidedly unnatural disaster for sure.

I... think there is a question about it. Unnatural disaster in what sense? It's a disaster only because we fucked up handling it? Yeah, okay, sure. Or, do you mean the virus was synthesized by the Chinese? Because if so...

...I think that one might be in question.

[Dazzle1]

Inadvertently, sure. China did indeed create and invent COVID-19 though, no question about it. This was quintessentially a human, man made disaster, not mother nature. A decidedly unnatural disaster for sure.

They did create it and their kept quiet about it and their lackey at the WHO Tedros was complicent.

[Bert]

I think it's probably illegitimate to talk about religion having a "primary function" - it's not ridiculous to say that religion's primary function is to be a vehicle for certain ontological claims about the nature of reality.

I think you just contradicted yourself, and all in one sentence! But seriously, while not denying the whole "Why are we here?" side of religion, I think that aspect is the claim to authority that makes the morality demands workable. If the priest, or cleric, or medicine man, or mystic, or oracle, or swami, or prophet, or seer doesn't claim some unique connection to some unseen higher power, their authority would be non-existent. "Only I have the answers to life, the universe and everything! And by the way, don't kill or steal or fuck another man's wife because that shit is wrong. and I would know because I have the answers to life, the univ..."

Think it through. It tracks.

[Damselbinder]

The emphasis was meant to be on the "a". It's illegitimate to talk about religion having "A" primary function. Savvy?

I don't need to think it through: what you're talking about is a pretty indisputably important aspect of most religions, including the pagan ones. Who would deny it?

[Femina]

Inadvertently, sure. China did indeed create and invent COVID-19 though, no question about it. This was quintessentially a human, man made disaster, not mother nature. A decidedly unnatural disaster for sure.

I don't do this a lot on forums and shit but... I'm gonna need a citation on that, most probably including eye witnesses accounts and testimony by the scientists involved. Preferably with some photographic and video documentation. Afraid I don't consider the word of Joe Mcstalksalot from Facebook as any kind of testimonial either.

Cause if not... I'm gonna need to ask once again that we quit wasting people's time with this kind of crap so we can all get back to worrying about things that matter.

[Bert]

The emphasis was meant to be on the "a". It's illegitimate to talk about religion having "A" primary function. Savvy?

I don't need to think it through: what you're talking about is a pretty indisputably important aspect of most religions, including the pagan ones. Who would deny it?

Ah. Well, here's a pro tip - if the emphasis is supposed to be on something, putting quotation marks around that thing can make it clear. You put quotation marks around "primary function", used the term "illegitimate", and then proceeded to offer your own definition of "primary function". Perhaps that explains how I apparently leapt to the wrong conclusion? Oh, by the way, I immediately followed that statement with the word "seriously", indicating that I wasn't being very serious about the whole 'illegitimate" thing.

As for "Who would deny it?", um, apparently, you.

[Bert]

Inadvertently, sure. China did indeed create and invent COVID-19 though, no question about it. This was quintessentially a human, man made disaster, not mother nature. A decidedly unnatural disaster for sure.

Hmmm. Create and invent? So like, they purposely, scientifically developed and then released on their own people a virus that caused illness and death? Is that what you mean?

[Damselbinder]

The emphasis was meant to be on the "a". It's illegitimate to talk about religion having "A" primary function. Savvy?

I don't need to think it through: what you're talking about is a pretty indisputably important aspect of most religions, including the pagan ones. Who would deny it?

Ah. Well, here's a pro tip - if the emphasis is supposed to be on something, putting quotation marks around that thing can make it clear. You put quotation marks around "primary function", used the term "illegitimate", and then proceeded to offer your own definition of "primary function". Perhaps that explains how I apparently leapt to the wrong conclusion? Oh, by the way, I immediately followed that statement with the word "seriously", indicating that I wasn't being very serious about the whole 'illegitimate" thing.

As for "Who would deny it?", um, apparently, you.

Can you not be so hostile please? You brought up something really interesting and I wanted to discuss it. That's all.

I have not denied, nor would I ever, that authority is an important aspect of organised religion.

[bushwackerbob]

Inadvertently, sure. China did indeed create and invent COVID-19 though, no question about it. This was quintessentially a human, man made disaster, not mother nature. A decidedly unnatural disaster for sure.

Hmmm. Create and invent? So like, they purposely, scientifically developed and then released on their own people a virus that caused illness and death? Is that what you mean?

Accidentally created, not intentional is my guess. I suppose my use of the word inadvertently was not clear enough. I would certainly not classify it along the lines of a hurricane or volcano for sure, that's just silly.

[tallyho]

DB and Bert - just dial it back a notch - you are not a million miles apart but the sarcasm is making posts seem more aggressive than possibly intended (I hope so anyway)

Sadly looks like you might crest 300k dead by Sunday. Gonna start to see the Thanksgiving spike over this weekend.
Desperate stuff.

[theScribbler]

bostonherald.com

biogen conference a super spreader. The virus can determine politics

You'll have to explain what this means. Is there a boston herald article you're trying to link to?

And you are so TDS addled you blame Trump for a China developed virus.

Only Trump and his many sheep minions, like you, have TDS,

And no no no Mr. Space Cadet ! You're easily confused, addled brain doesn't get to make a strawman out of my post. I did not blame
Trump for the virus, what I said was...

.
.
.
Trump is totally to blame for Trump's domestic war crime caused by his epic failed leadership in dealing with the virus.
.
.
.

If that doesn't clear it up for you, don't care!

And don't forget, cause you seem to have overlooked this: Trump Loves China.



Again, you've been totally destroyed. Take your radicalized feebleness and go home. You're welcome!

[tallyho]

OK let's stop personal references to other board members please. You can attack their position but not them.
<Note to self: I gotta get shares in Emojis as long as Scribbs is a member... >

[five_red]

Inadvertently, sure. China did indeed create and invent COVID-19 though, no question about it. This was quintessentially a human, man made disaster, not mother nature. A decidedly unnatural disaster for sure.

The genome of Covid-19 was decoded pretty early on and it's RNA shows no signs of gene splicing. It looks like a regular evolutionary mutation from an existing known Covid strain. China is guilty of allowing wet markets to operate, which are known breeding grounds for new virus strains (including mutations that allow transmission to humans) , but there's no indication that they deliberately did this to create Covid-19. Nor did they have a motive to do so. The most likely reason they allowed the wet markets to continue is cultural, rather than any diobolical plan to terrorise the world. If they were indeed operating to some secret diobolical plan then it wasn't a particularly good plan, as they appeared to have made few provisions to stop any successful strain from flooding their own country.

R5

[Femina]

Inadvertently, sure. China did indeed create and invent COVID-19 though, no question about it. This was quintessentially a human, man made disaster, not mother nature. A decidedly unnatural disaster for sure.

Hmmm. Create and invent? So like, they purposely, scientifically developed and then released on their own people a virus that caused illness and death? Is that what you mean?

Accidentally created, not intentional is my guess. I suppose my use of the word inadvertently was not clear enough. I would certainly not classify it along the lines of a hurricane or volcano for sure, that's just silly.

Ludicrous, but fine, let's WASTE OUR TIME on this, What's your evidence and why are you so certain? Because right now you're saying 'they did indeed no question about it' indicates either insider knowledge or social ignorance. In either case it reads about as factual as my saying 'Donald Trump is a vampire, no question about it' and with exactly as much reason to consider it. Just saying things doesn't make it true, no matter how much it echos around in the social media sphere. I cannot stress this enough, if you hear it on Facebook, its probably not true.

Here in America we have a poor opinion of China, cool, it doesn't make them a valid pin cushion of blame for every problem ever. China didn't create Covid anymore than Africans invented Ebola. Viruses exist, they always start somewhere by simple nature of the fact that everything has to START somewhere, and if you're wondering 'but why China!?' I guide you please to the absolute FACT that no country in the world is more likely to be the progenitor of a Virus than the MOST POPULATED country in the world.

The Virus is a natural disaster, and looking for someone to BLAME for nature is a waste of your time, and the time of everyone you talk to about it, and worse, it can draw attention away from something that actually matters.... unless you are religious, in which case you can blame whatever god you pray too pretty solidly...

[Bert]

DB and Bert - just dial it back a notch - you are not a million miles apart but the sarcasm is making posts seem more aggressive than possibly intended (I hope so anyway)

Read those posts through from the start and then tell me where I erred. My opinion was called illegitimate and I laughed it of with an obvious joke. In reply I got a bullshit justification, complete with a passive aggressive "savvy?" My reply to that was a tiny bit sarcastic with the 'Pro tip" business, but very, very far from hostile. Come on.

[Damselbinder]

DB and Bert - just dial it back a notch - you are not a million miles apart but the sarcasm is making posts seem more aggressive than possibly intended (I hope so anyway)

Read those posts through from the start and then tell me where I erred. My opinion was called illegitimate and I laughed it of with an obvious joke. In reply I got a bullshit justification, complete with a passive aggressive "savvy?" My reply to that was a tiny bit sarcastic with the 'Pro tip" business, but very, very far from hostile. Come on.

It wasn't meant to read as a justification. It was meant to read as a clarification. You were right: the way I'd written my initial reply didn't make sense. 'Savvy' was just meant to mean 'does that make more sense', not 'duh, idiot' or anything. I can see that it didn't help matters. Pax?

[tallyho]

I'll cancel the UN Peacekeeping Force.
My work here is done...

[Bert]

We're good.

[bushwackerbob]

Inadvertently, sure. China did indeed create and invent COVID-19 though, no question about it. This was quintessentially a human, man made disaster, not mother nature. A decidedly unnatural disaster for sure.

Hmmm. Create and invent? So like, they purposely, scientifically developed and then released on their own people a virus that caused illness and death? Is that what you mean?

Accidentally created, not intentional is my guess. I suppose my use of the word inadvertently was not clear enough. I would certainly not classify it along the lines of a hurricane or volcano for sure, that's just silly.

Ludicrous, but fine, let's WASTE OUR TIME on this, What's your evidence and why are you so certain? Because right now you're saying 'they did indeed no question about it' indicates either insider knowledge or social ignorance. In either case it reads about as factual as my saying 'Donald Trump is a vampire, no question about it' and with exactly as much reason to consider it. Just saying things doesn't make it true, no matter how much it echos around in the social media sphere. I cannot stress this enough, if you hear it on Facebook, its probably not true.

Here in America we have a poor opinion of China, cool, it doesn't make them a valid pin cushion of blame for every problem ever. China didn't create Covid anymore than Africans invented Ebola. Viruses exist, they always start somewhere by simple nature of the fact that everything has to START somewhere, and if you're wondering 'but why China!?' I guide you please to the absolute FACT that no country in the world is more likely to be the progenitor of a Virus than the MOST POPULATED country in the world.

The Virus is a natural disaster, and looking for someone to BLAME for nature is a waste of your time, and the time of everyone you talk to about it, and worse, it can draw attention away from something that actually matters.... unless you are religious, in which case you can blame whatever god you pray too pretty solidly...

My my, that is quite an expansive definition of natural disaster, and sorry, I am not buying it. This was a man made virus. As a fine and smart Canadian dude once said to me "human beings are imperfect individuals, they are fallible, they make mistakes". I believe that is what happened here, in the Wuhan province in China, where some smart folks likely got very careless and made some grave mistakes which have cost human lives. This Chinese virus is to blame. I am just stating the facts as I see them. This virus is of Chinese origin and they are to blame for the outbreak of COVID-19 and Trump fucked it up from there.

[Imagineer]

You need evidence to support the assertion that it's man-made. Or even that there was intentional curation or distribution.

A virus of this type needs no deliberate human intention to evolve and spread.

Especially since -- and this is what SHOULD be the lesson -- common human behaviors like lax hygiene and exotic tourism help viruses leap species and then continents... and then once we realize we have a dangerous virus spreading, our attempts to contain it can make it worse. People rushing to beat travel deadlines, overcrowding transport hubs, spending HOURS longer in those hubs to get through crap screening, and passing pens from person to person to fill out the crap screening forms... good grief.

And that's just one of the first links in the chain of vulnerabilities baked into our cultures and our infrastructure (or lack thereof) we need to reckon with.

Fixating on a Weapons of Mass Destruction narrative isn't just misguided, it's harmful.

[bushwackerbob]

You need evidence to support the assertion that it's man-made. Or even that there was intentional curation or distribution.

A virus of this type needs no deliberate human intention to evolve and spread.

Especially since -- and this is what SHOULD be the lesson -- common human behaviors like lax hygiene and exotic tourism help viruses leap species and then continents... and then once we realize we have a dangerous virus spreading, our attempts to contain it can make it worse. People rushing to beat travel deadlines, overcrowding transport hubs, spending HOURS longer in those hubs to get through crap screening, and passing pens from person to person to fill out the crap screening forms... good grief.

And that's just one of the first links in the chain of vulnerabilities baked into our cultures and our infrastructure (or lack thereof) we need to reckon with.

Fixating on a Weapons of Mass Destruction narrative isn't just misguided, it's harmful.

No I do not. I have found though that The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has decreed COVID-19 a natural disaster, so perhaps my definition maybe a bit narrow. I always think of mother nature type of events such as hurricanes, tornadoes, etc, not man made events but I guess I am the one who needs to expand upon my definition of natural disaster.

[Damselbinder]

Okay. Do we need evidence to support the assertion it's NOT man made?

[Bert]

No I do not. I have found though that The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has decreed COVID-19 a natural disaster

Does that decision result in a freeing up of some level of funding, state or federal, to combat the pandemic? Just curious.

[Imagineer]

Yes, "natural disaster" has some administrative and legal meaning. Declaring a disaster activates protocols for administrative action and allows access to funding pre-authorized or set aside for such purposes. I believe further declaring a *natural* disaster invokes some "acts of God" liability limitations.

There is a long established well-understood history of pathogens generally and viruses specifically. How many were created in a lab? How many were weaponized? But we all love to retell the smallpox-infested blankets story, don't we? And we love to click our tongues ruefully at modern man's potential for evil and technological hubris. Indeed, the basic narrative framework that we use to impose meaning and reflect upon the world basically DEMANDS ONE INCITING INCIDENT. But we're invoking our own self-importance to suggest that nature isn't clever or bold enough to spawn something that could exploit our weaknesses so effectively, or even to suggest that it's more likely us than nature.

So yeah, it's a reasonable assumption that, lacking evidence to the contrary, the inexorable grind of nature and ordinary human behavior are sufficient explanation for the origin and spread of a new virus.

[DrDominator9]

For myself, I believe the theory of covid-19's "manmade" creation by putting diseased animals together in the wet market environment and that nature took it from there with the virus jumping from animals and then to mankind and mutating as efficiently as nature can be when she puts her mind to it. It was a cooperative project that man and nature has wrought together.

[Imagineer]

I'd call that not manmade but manspreading, but that word already means something else
Industrialization does create the conditions for more deadly pathogens to evolve, but even absent our impact, nature's balance is dynamic and merciless.

[five_red]

My my, that is quite an expansive definition of natural disaster, and sorry, I am not buying it. This was a man made virus. As a fine and smart Canadian dude once said to me "human beings are imperfect individuals, they are fallible, they make mistakes". I believe that is what happened here, in the Wuhan province in China, where some smart folks likely got very careless and made some grave mistakes which have cost human lives. This Chinese virus is to blame. I am just stating the facts as I see them. This virus is of Chinese origin and they are to blame for the outbreak of COVID-19 and Trump fucked it up from there.

• The RNA of the virus shows none of the markers we'd expect from gene manipulation in a lab. Genetically this looks like just the latest iteration in a family of Covid viruses, just a natural evolution.

• Wuhan has wet (live animal) markets, like many places in China, which are controlled in many countries because they are suspected of providing rich environments for viruses to naturally jump between species. Other outbreaks, such as Sars, are suspected to have originated in such markets.

• The Wuhan Institute of Virology is a lab that studies the structure and evolution of viruses; there's no evidence to suggest it can engineer new viruses. Any viruses studued in that lab will already exist in the outside world, and the lab was the first in China to conform to the strictest international biosafety standards (BSL-4.) The lab works in close partnership with three other virology labs, based in the USA, Canada, and France.

It you want to make a connection between the fact that the first known cases of Covid-19 were in a city that also has a major virology lab, let me just remind you that the first cases in the USA were in the Seattle area, and Seattle houses a cluster of research labs associated with virology. If you watched the Under Control documentary releases a few months back, there's even a point when the American researchers express how lucky they initially thought they were that the first reported cases in the US were on their own doorstep.

R5

[bushwackerbob]

No I do not. I have found though that The Pennsylvania Supreme Court has decreed COVID-19 a natural disaster

Does that decision result in a freeing up of some level of funding, state or federal, to combat the pandemic? Just curious.

Apparently from what I read, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court's ruling had to do with the PA governor's ability to authorize lockdowns and close certain businesses to attempt to stop the spread of COVID-19. The governor issued an executive order closing some of those businesses, some of these business owners apparently sued, and the PA Supreme Court sided with the governor.

[bushwackerbob]

I know that this is a rather mundane question, but here in the U.S, at least here in Massachusetts we have one way aisles with arrows pointing in the right direction in supermarkets and big box stores in order to help with social distancing. For the good folks who live outside the U.S, do they have those one way aisles where you live?

[tallyho]

Yep in all stores, pretty much. The smaller shops have a one in one out system so people queue outside before they are allowed in

[tallyho]

Some shops have blocked isles with displays so you can only go around a certain route

[Bert]

Most of those precautions are just for show, so people feel more safe. You're not going to catch covid from briefly walking past someone. It's prolonged, close, indoor exposure that transmits the virus. If you want to stay safe, wear a mask indoors when exposed to people, avoid crowds and maintain social distance. Don't touch your eyes, nose or mouth unless you've washed your hands. The people who are really at risk are service workers constantly exposed to the public, healthcare workers and care home patients. And of course idiots who refuse to take the above precautions.

[tallyho]

Just watching the dick heads marching on Supreme court. No one in masks a few with them around their necks was as close as I came to seeing one worn. Well in a few weeks a lot of them will be worrying about dying rather than the election

[Damselbinder]

To pre-empt the inevitable counter, a lot of marchers have been shit with masks, on both sides of the aisle. At least they were outside, I guess?

[tallyho]

But no spacing, shoulder to shoulder shouting in each others ears

[Damselbinder]

Yes, well.


Quite.

[Heroine Addict]

My my, that is quite an expansive definition of natural disaster, and sorry, I am not buying it. This was a man made virus. As a fine and smart Canadian dude once said to me "human beings are imperfect individuals, they are fallible, they make mistakes". I believe that is what happened here, in the Wuhan province in China, where some smart folks likely got very careless and made some grave mistakes which have cost human lives. This Chinese virus is to blame. I am just stating the facts as I see them. This virus is of Chinese origin and they are to blame for the outbreak of COVID-19 and Trump fucked it up from there.

• The RNA of the virus shows none of the markers we'd expect from gene manipulation in a lab. Genetically this looks like just the latest iteration in a family of Covid viruses, just a natural evolution.

• Wuhan has wet (live animal) markets, like many places in China, which are controlled in many countries because they are suspected of providing rich environments for viruses to naturally jump between species. Other outbreaks, such as Sars, are suspected to have originated in such markets.

• The Wuhan Institute of Virology is a lab that studies the structure and evolution of viruses; there's no evidence to suggest it can engineer new viruses. Any viruses studued in that lab will already exist in the outside world, and the lab was the first in China to conform to the strictest international biosafety standards (BSL-4.) The lab works in close partnership with three other virology labs, based in the USA, Canada, and France.

It you want to make a connection between the fact that the first known cases of Covid-19 were in a city that also has a major virology lab, let me just remind you that the first cases in the USA were in the Seattle area, and Seattle houses a cluster of research labs associated with virology. If you watched the Under Control documentary releases a few months back, there's even a point when the American researchers express how lucky they initially thought they were that the first reported cases in the US were on their own doorstep.

R5

Evolution is the key word there. Approximately 40% of Americans don't even believe in evolution. Many of them also think that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Which denies pretty much the entire science of Geology. When huge swathes of the US population deny Evolutionary Biology and Geology because the evidence doesn't fit with their scripture-based worldview, it's really not a surprise that science denial should be rampant at a time of national emergency. Virology Schmirology!

Just look at any COVID conspiracy discussion on social media and you don't have to scroll down far to find people accusing Anthony Fauci and Bill Gates of being demons who are plotting the downfall of humanity. Not just people to be demonized, but actual demons. From Hell. Who need to be killed.

No offense intended to the vast majority of decent religious folk. I'm just disturbed and saddened by the bloodthirsty willingness of some 'devout' people to label certain scientists and certain politicians as satanic enemies who need to be executed. While this particular thread is pretty sane and cordial, the Internet is awash with desperate and angry people who literally think that committing murder would be doing the Lord's work. (Which is why Fauci now has constant Secret Service protection.)

Apologies for going off on a tangent there.

[Imagineer]

Just look at any COVID conspiracy discussion on social media and you don't have to scroll down far to find people accusing Anthony Fauci and Bill Gates of being demons who are plotting the downfall of humanity. Not just people to be demonized, but actual demons. From Hell. Who need to be killed.

The patent absurdity of the belief that Bill Gates is an actual demon plotting the downfall of humanity...
...comes from the realization that if he'd wanted the downfall of humanity, he'd have wiped us off the planet fifteen years ago.

[Mr. X]

Evolution is the key word there. Approximately 40% of Americans don't even believe in evolution. Many of them also think that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Which denies pretty much the entire science of Geology. When huge swathes of the US population deny Evolutionary Biology and Geology because the evidence doesn't fit with their scripture-based worldview, it's really not a surprise that science denial should be rampant at a time of national emergency. Virology Schmirology!

So what.
They can believe what they want. Their capitulation is not required.

There are people who think there are 57 genders or the Russians rigged the election for Trump or the Hobbesian view humans are inherently evil or the collective is more important than the individual.

As Faucault points out, science as we use it in society, is not the rigor. Its a panel of experts, selected through a political process, that determine what is truth, what is not, what is allowed to discuss, who can contribute, who can refute.

No I don't believe the other half of the US are also about science. They are about class, bourgeoisie and social hierarchy.