Living in the shadow of the corona virus

[Femina]

I think we can call out the hypocrisy of the left because the media has been non-stop calling out the hypocrisy of the right while ignoring the left. The media has been intent on having Biden elected. The pathetic softball questions gently tossed at Biden compared to the caustic questions hurled at Trump would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic and insidious. The media needs to be above the fray--it must be objective in order to avoid people living in their respective echo chambers for news coverage. The problem is that so much money is made and viewership is increased when news outlets pander to their base. So calling out the Democrats for their hypocrisy is just as important as calling out the Republicans for theirs. Sadly, the former seldom occurs whereas the latter is front page news.

I apologize if my previous post accidentally indicated that I feel like hypocrisy should be partisan and only Republicans should be held accountable. I'd have elaborated further and had even written a lot more there, except I don't want to get too political in this thread. This Virus is an objective health risk with directly tangible dangers which need to be addressed and not an ethos or organization by which to argue back and forth about... while any amount of discusing politics around it is likely to bring politics INTO it and create undue credence to the idea that the Virus should be political. It isn't, everyone should be doing more to deal with it than they are, and the 'Trumpet' that keeps minimizing it is doing real and lasting harm to thousands of American lives daily.

Had I gone further with my comment which you notated, I'd have expressed that, regardless of whatever hypocrisies ANY American enacts, the President of the United States hypocrisies MATTER MORE. To often 'well 'dem DEMS be hypocrits too?' or similar arguments are utilized essentially as an argument that it is therefore OK for the LEADER OF OUR COUNTRY to also be a hypocritical asshole regardless of how utterly embarrassingly foolish it makes him look, and OUR COUNTRY by extension. "Jenny stole some candy too!" doesn't absolve you of theft, it simply means that Jenny also needs to be punished... and if you're Student Body President, the consequences are RIGHTLY going to be more severe for you. Remember, nobody ASKED Trump to run for President, it's a duty he took upon HIMSELF. Therefore it is his responsibility to own up to his failures and try to serve our country, and he absolutely deserves to be tarred and feathered for how SPECTACULARLY he has failed us.

Yeah, Democratic Senator Partyhardy shouldn't be passing beers around a large group of people anymore than the next person... that shit needs to be discouraged, but if the PRESIDENT does it it's WORSE.

[sugarcoater]

More died in US yesterday than have died in Wales since the outbreak began (2763)

For what it's worth, I believe the number of deaths was "reported deaths" and not deaths on that day. The reason I mention that is because the numbers of deaths reported were delayed due to the Thanksgiving weekend. According to The Atlantic, "Now data-reporting delays caused by the Thanksgiving holiday and long weekend may provide a veneer of comfort—a seeming dip in cases—when the actual course of the pandemic in the coming days will almost certainly be much bleaker than the reported numbers show." This means we have a spiked number due to that, whereas every other country won't because they don't celebrate Thanksgiving.
For what that's worth.

[sugarcoater]

@ Femina

Agreed. My frustration in California is more directed towards the arrogance and contempt shown by Governor Newsom because he is the one dictating the regulations and limitations in the state (whereas Trump doesn't have that power). You are correct in that the president is more of a tone-setter, though in these partisan times I don't imagine the avidly anti-Trump people care about anything he says and the avidly pro-Trump people will buy into everything he says. Thankfully, I think the majority of Americans are in the middle 80% and can use their own logic to figure out what makes the most sense. Unfortunately, 10% is a lot.

[Dazzle1]

Second they have been the most hypocritical in two standards. They can travel and get their hair down or eat at restaurants, but no one else can.

Can you really say this with a straight face when Donald Trump acts as a counterargument simply by nature of existing? The guy is the biggest hypocritical bullshit con artist who ever lived. He caught Carona.... and still wont do a thing about it. He's probably out golfing RIGHT NOW...

Yes, because Trump has not issued Draconian orders about closures while exempting himself. Such as mayor closing places down and than going out themselves

Restaurants and bars are not the problem as the CDC studies show large gathering such as protests or family gatherings are.

[tallyho]

_20201204_083418.JPG (101.22 KiB) Viewed 2881 times

Sugarcoater - don't you feel after 4 years of constant lies, half truths and corruption, Trump has exhausted any benefit of the doubt?
You talk as if the liberal press have an aggressive agenda against him yet it is the entire global press corps that are making the same reporting comments because there is only one position to take when dealing with a regime that calls lies 'alternative facts' and states ' the truth isn't always the truth'.

Look at that graphic, it's that of a third world corrupt regime. Barr did nothing over the Mueller recommendation of investigating the 10 instances of Obstruction that he specifically said needed to be answered. Trump has consistently profited himself and immediate family through the White House which is something he is not supposed to do. Trump labelled the Mueller enquiry as a witch hunt yet it caught 38 real witches.

BUT if you want to ignore everything else about the man judge him now on his performance in this crisis. Playing golf and spouting baseless lies whilst his own countrymen are dying.
Scrapping the pandemic unit that was in place FOR THIS PRECISE SITUATION and then blatantly lying that he knew nothing about it. That has directly led to 260,,000 dead and rising. And yes you still would have had deaths but nothing on this scale. And he rates his performance through this mess as a '10'.. well, thank god he didn't have an off day then huh. Or if he HAD ACTUALLY ATTENDED his Covid task force meetings would that mean his performance would go to an 11?


It's looking likely you will hit 200,000 cases a day shortly. He could be out there reinforcing the public health message to his base, and everyone else, and even if he only persuades one person to wear a mask or distance then it would be worth it, but golf is far more important to him than you are.

On Covid -
Countries seem self absorbed with their own difficulties in this crisis, but has anyone seen anything on the state of infections and deaths in the refugee camps? I've not seen anything for months but I'm guessing it's not going to be good.

[Imagineer]

Restaurants and bars are not the problem as the CDC studies show large gathering such as protests or family gatherings are.

Citation please for the statement that restaurants and bars are not the problem.

Many bars *are* large gatherings.

As for the reference to the curfew, I would have encouraged politicians to give the data that illustrates the need for the curfew. Forcing people to condense their time outside their homes seems like a bad idea--more people have to go out at the same time due to the lack of total hours now. And not everyone works the typical 9-5 shift. People are more inclined to abide by regulations when given logical data.

I expect everybody here wants more data. Whether or not it's healthy for each of us as individuals to be validating every move of officials with established track records is another matter.

That said, I don't buy your condensing-activity argument at face value. Was your supermarket open after 10pm and now isn't? Were you getting late-night takeout and since been given a warning that you can't? I'll admit that my behavior is altered slightly: by about 9pm I'm wondering if I should pop over to the 7-11 to grab more Diet Mtn Dew just in case work goes too late -- but I'm willing to make the sacrifice on the belief that the curfew is saving a thirsty twentysomething's grandma. Even if she does vote Republican

I wonder if the curfew is an alternative to another edict that all bars must be closed, period. A curfew lets the sort of folks who either complain to local officials or contribute to their reelection get their $18 boutique cocktails. I honestly didn't dig very deep for curfew justification once I saw that I could still get pizza and cookies delivered after ten.

Now there's a post-travel quarantine requirement. While everything seems draconian if it applies to you, and officials should share the rationale for guidelines and restrictions as they announce them (a link in the press release please), I think the trend toward a more tailored approach is a good thing. We have to live with this thing for another six months.

[Femina]

Second they have been the most hypocritical in two standards. They can travel and get their hair down or eat at restaurants, but no one else can.

Can you really say this with a straight face when Donald Trump acts as a counterargument simply by nature of existing? The guy is the biggest hypocritical bullshit con artist who ever lived. He caught Carona.... and still wont do a thing about it. He's probably out golfing RIGHT NOW...

Yes, because Trump has not issued Draconian orders about closures while exempting himself. Such as mayor closing places down and than going out themselves

Restaurants and bars are not the problem as the CDC studies show large gathering such as protests or family gatherings are.

Or maybe a big 'Hey I kinda feel like I actually won because I'm the greatest man in the universe and I can't possibly have ever lost ever... fuck anyone who says otherwise!' event in Georgia this coming Saturday? He's organizing a huge maskless get together to make a big ol' self-aggrandizing event to RALLY Georgia for a presidential race that's ALREADY OVER. If that isn't the definition of a frivolous health risk I don't know what is.

DRACONIAN is being awfully sensationalist, America has few if any true 'you absolutely cannot go out or find work PERIOD clauses. There are some, I was out of work in the education system for quite a while... and may still find it spotty for the next while, but I am free to go out, get my groceries, do my Christmas shopping, look for work in places that weren't closed down... hoard toilet paper like a Toilet Paper Troll Gnome rescued from the endangered species list whose mere existence the environment isn't coping with, etc.

And JUST because it now has to be said, Trump is full of Draconian orders and measures while exempting himself. Ask the children whom his immigration reforms has left orphaned (Not that I imagine you care about any of them). Or the bullshit scam he's running convincing millions of American's to donate to his legal battle to steal an election... which he's almost certainly just pocketing, but even if he's not he is sure exempting himself from spending a looooooot of money there.

[Dazzle1]

Second they have been the most hypocritical in two standards. They can travel and get their hair down or eat at restaurants, but no one else can.

Can you really say this with a straight face when Donald Trump acts as a counterargument simply by nature of existing? The guy is the biggest hypocritical bullshit con artist who ever lived. He caught Carona.... and still wont do a thing about it. He's probably out golfing RIGHT NOW...

Yes, because Trump has not issued Draconian orders about closures while exempting himself. Such as mayor closing places down and than going out themselves

Restaurants and bars are not the problem as the CDC studies show large gathering such as protests or family gatherings are.

Or maybe a big 'Hey I kinda feel like I actually won because I'm the greatest man in the universe and I can't possibly have ever lost ever... fuck anyone who says otherwise!' event in Georgia this coming Saturday? He's organizing a huge maskless get together to make a big ol' self-aggrandizing event to RALLY Georgia for a presidential race that's ALREADY OVER. If that isn't the definition of a frivolous health risk I don't know what is.

DRACONIAN is being awfully sensationalist, America has few if any true 'you absolutely cannot go out or find work PERIOD clauses. There are some, I was out of work in the education system for quite a while... and may still find it spotty for the next while, but I am free to go out, get my groceries, do my Christmas shopping, look for work in places that weren't closed down... hoard toilet paper like a Toilet Paper Troll Gnome rescued from the endangered species list whose mere existence the environment isn't coping with, etc.

And JUST because it now has to be said, Trump is full of Draconian orders and measures while exempting himself. Ask the children whom his immigration reforms has left orphaned (Not that I imagine you care about any of them). Or the bullshit scam he's running convincing millions of American's to donate to his legal battle to steal an election... which he's almost certainly just pocketing, but even if he's not he is sure exempting himself from spending a looooooot of money there.

There are plenty of Dems going to GA including the racist Squad .

I don't think you understand the self employed other than front line health workers have made the biggest sacrfices. We did not get PUA for the shutdown. And the local government hacks did not give up anything

So don't tell me to shutdown until every public official gives up their salaries and pensions unless they are in a essential position

I can wear the mask and make business calls.

[theScribbler]

Second they have been the most hypocritical in two standards. They can travel and get their hair down or eat at restaurants, but no one else can.

Can you really say this with a straight face when Donald Trump acts as a counterargument simply by nature of existing? The guy is the biggest hypocritical bullshit con artist who ever lived. He caught Carona.... and still wont do a thing about it. He's probably out golfing RIGHT NOW...

Yes, because Trump has not issued Draconian orders about closures while exempting himself. Such as mayor closing places down and than going out themselves

Restaurants and bars are not the problem as the CDC studies show large gathering such as protests or family gatherings are.

Or maybe a big 'Hey I kinda feel like I actually won because I'm the greatest man in the universe and I can't possibly have ever lost ever... fuck anyone who says otherwise!' event in Georgia this coming Saturday? He's organizing a huge maskless get together to make a big ol' self-aggrandizing event to RALLY Georgia for a presidential race that's ALREADY OVER. If that isn't the definition of a frivolous health risk I don't know what is.

DRACONIAN is being awfully sensationalist, America has few if any true 'you absolutely cannot go out or find work PERIOD clauses. There are some, I was out of work in the education system for quite a while... and may still find it spotty for the next while, but I am free to go out, get my groceries, do my Christmas shopping, look for work in places that weren't closed down... hoard toilet paper like a Toilet Paper Troll Gnome rescued from the endangered species list whose mere existence the environment isn't coping with, etc.

And JUST because it now has to be said, Trump is full of Draconian orders and measures while exempting himself. Ask the children whom his immigration reforms has left orphaned (Not that I imagine you care about any of them). Or the bullshit scam he's running convincing millions of American's to donate to his legal battle to steal an election... which he's almost certainly just pocketing, but even if he's not he is sure exempting himself from spending a looooooot of money there.

There are plenty of Dems going to GA including the racist Squad .

I don't think you understand the self employed other than front line health workers have made the biggest sacrfices. We did not get PUA for the shutdown. And the local government hacks did not give up anything

So don't tell me to shutdown until every public official gives up their salaries and pensions unless they are in a essential position

I can wear the mask and make business calls.

1. There is no racist Squad. There IS racist Trump. There IS racist white supremacists. There IS racist Nazi's and KKK. Been well established.

2. No, you are wrong. Health workers have made by far the biggest sacrifices. I'm not saying others haven't sacrificed, many have sacrificed, just that your statement above is ridiculous.

There has been PUA.
https://www.dol.gov/coronavirus/unemplo ... %2C%202020

Would've been more PUA, but you know, Generous-to-the-super-rich-&-Stingy-to-the-not-super-rich Moscow Mitch couldn't be bothered with another relief bill like the Heroes act (passed by house in May 2020).
https://waysandmeans.house.gov/sites/de ... pdated.pdf

Local governments!? It's Trump that gave up nothing while failing catastrophically with his failed leadership by lying, down-playing the pandemic and setting in motion months and months of didn't-need-to-happen deaths of USA citizen's friends and loved ones, not to mention all the people who got sick and while they didn't die, have long term health issues from covid after being released from hospitals. Of course, Moscow MItch and his lapdog GOP sycophant senators are fine with that.

As reported by Vox.com in september 2020...

If the US had the same death rate as the European Union overall, nearly 84,000 Americans wouldn’t have died from Covid-19 (out of the nearly 190,000 who have died so far).
If the US had the same death rate as Canada, nearly 109,000 Americans wouldn’t have died from Covid-19.
If the US had the same death rate as Germany, more than 152,000 Americans wouldn’t have died from Covid-19.
If the US had the same death rate as Australia, more than 179,000 Americans wouldn’t have died from Covid-19.
If the US had the same death rate as Japan, more than 185,000 Americans wouldn’t have died from Covid-19.

But we had Trump, so we get 100,000 plus more deaths.

3. "So don't tell me to shutdown until every public official gives up their salaries and pensions unless they are in a essential position" = pathetic.

4. "I can wear the mask and make business calls." ???! So can everyone!

5. "Yes, because Trump has not issued Draconian orders about closures while exempting himself. Such as mayor closing places down and than going out themselves." Trump blathered statements and tweets saying states should open asap during the pandemic, open the economy, open schools, during pandemic. And he would have made those orders if he had the power to do so. He doesn't have that power as president, but he has great influence via bully pulpit with these statements anyway. Ergo, like already said. Trump caused huge numbers of unneeded deaths and sickness. A genuine Antichrist.

6. "Restaurants and bars are not the problem as the CDC studies show large gathering such as protests or family gatherings are." = false. Large gatherings anywhere inside are a problem. Worse in smaller spaces than larger ones. Show us your CDC studies that say different.

Hey, remember when we were asked to stop being political?! You couldn't hold out. You broke first. I waited. You continued to break. Figured I'd chime in now. Cheers.

Stay safe everyone.

[Dazzle1]

Can you really say this with a straight face when Donald Trump acts as a counterargument simply by nature of existing? The guy is the biggest hypocritical bullshit con artist who ever lived. He caught Carona.... and still wont do a thing about it. He's probably out golfing RIGHT NOW...

Yes, because Trump has not issued Draconian orders about closures while exempting himself. Such as mayor closing places down and than going out themselves

Restaurants and bars are not the problem as the CDC studies show large gathering such as protests or family gatherings are.

Or maybe a big 'Hey I kinda feel like I actually won because I'm the greatest man in the universe and I can't possibly have ever lost ever... fuck anyone who says otherwise!' event in Georgia this coming Saturday? He's organizing a huge maskless get together to make a big ol' self-aggrandizing event to RALLY Georgia for a presidential race that's ALREADY OVER. If that isn't the definition of a frivolous health risk I don't know what is.

DRACONIAN is being awfully sensationalist, America has few if any true 'you absolutely cannot go out or find work PERIOD clauses. There are some, I was out of work in the education system for quite a while... and may still find it spotty for the next while, but I am free to go out, get my groceries, do my Christmas shopping, look for work in places that weren't closed down... hoard toilet paper like a Toilet Paper Troll Gnome rescued from the endangered species list whose mere existence the environment isn't coping with, etc.

And JUST because it now has to be said, Trump is full of Draconian orders and measures while exempting himself. Ask the children whom his immigration reforms has left orphaned (Not that I imagine you care about any of them). Or the bullshit scam he's running convincing millions of American's to donate to his legal battle to steal an election... which he's almost certainly just pocketing, but even if he's not he is sure exempting himself from spending a looooooot of money there.

There are plenty of Dems going to GA including the racist Squad .

I don't think you understand the self employed other than front line health workers have made the biggest sacrfices. We did not get PUA for the shutdown. And the local government hacks did not give up anything

So don't tell me to shutdown until every public official gives up their salaries and pensions unless they are in a essential position

I can wear the mask and make business calls.

1. There is no racist Squad. There IS racist Trump. There IS racist white supremacists. There IS racist Nazi's and KKK. Been well established.

2. No, you are wrong. Health workers have made by far the biggest sacrifices. I'm not saying others haven't sacrificed, many have sacrificed, just that your statement above is ridiculous.

There has been PUA.
https://www.dol.gov/coronavirus/unemplo ... %2C%202020

Would've been more PUA, but you know, Generous-to-the-super-rich-&-Stingy-to-the-not-super-rich Moscow Mitch couldn't be bothered with another relief bill like the Heroes act (passed by house in May 2020).
https://waysandmeans.house.gov/sites/de ... pdated.pdf

Local governments!? It's Trump that gave up nothing while failing catastrophically with his failed leadership by lying, down-playing the pandemic and setting in motion months and months of didn't-need-to-happen deaths of USA citizen's friends and loved ones, not to mention all the people who got sick and while they didn't die, have long term health issues from covid after being released from hospitals. Of course, Moscow MItch and his lapdog GOP sycophant senators are fine with that.

As reported by Vox.com in september 2020...

If the US had the same death rate as the European Union overall, nearly 84,000 Americans wouldn’t have died from Covid-19 (out of the nearly 190,000 who have died so far).
If the US had the same death rate as Canada, nearly 109,000 Americans wouldn’t have died from Covid-19.
If the US had the same death rate as Germany, more than 152,000 Americans wouldn’t have died from Covid-19.
If the US had the same death rate as Australia, more than 179,000 Americans wouldn’t have died from Covid-19.
If the US had the same death rate as Japan, more than 185,000 Americans wouldn’t have died from Covid-19.

But we had Trump, so we get 100,000 plus more deaths.

3. "So don't tell me to shutdown until every public official gives up their salaries and pensions unless they are in a essential position" = pathetic.

4. "I can wear the mask and make business calls." ???! So can everyone!

5. "Yes, because Trump has not issued Draconian orders about closures while exempting himself. Such as mayor closing places down and than going out themselves." Trump blathered statements and tweets saying states should open asap during the pandemic, open the economy, open schools, during pandemic. And he would have made those orders if he had the power to do so. He doesn't have that power as president, but he has great influence via bully pulpit with these statements anyway. Ergo, like already said. Trump caused huge numbers of unneeded deaths and sickness. A genuine Antichrist.

6. "Restaurants and bars are not the problem as the CDC studies show large gathering such as protests or family gatherings are." = false. Large gatherings anywhere inside are a problem. Worse in smaller spaces than larger ones. Show us your CDC studies that say different.

Hey, remember when we were asked to stop being political?! You couldn't hold out. You broke first. I waited. You continued to break. Figured I'd chime in now. Cheers.

Stay safe everyone.

Frontline workers are the healthcare workers

Of course the Squad is racist they support BDS which is no different than supporting the KKK or CAIR
Most racists in 2020 are leftist like Obama is
If we had Dems like Obama 10 millon Americans would be dead and we would no where close to vacinne

Trump is not great but he is better than with the Dems offer

No it is not pathetic to expect the politicians to give something up the parasite in the Democratic congress and states have not given up anything and frankly every business person in the U.S is better than all of them

[Damselbinder]

You're right. The BDS is no different from the KKK. They absolutely have been personally responsible for flat out murdering people. Oh wait.

"Most racists in 2020 are leftist." Evidence? I mean, I'd probably be of the view that more racists were right-wing, but it's certainly not something I'd declare with the petulant confidence you just did.

[Dazzle1]

You're right. The BDS is no different from the KKK. They absolutely have been personally responsible for flat out murdering people. Oh wait.

"Most racists in 2020 are leftist." Evidence? I mean, I'd probably be of the view that more racists were right-wing, but it's certainly not something I'd declare with the petulant confidence you just did.

Just look at the attacks on whites and Jews on the streets. Who supports BDS: The Squad, leftists.
Trump is pro Israel.

BTW for those who asked about restaurants not being a cause of Covid 19 increase

https://www.bostonherald.com/2020/12/03 ... vid-surge/

[Femina]

Frontline workers are the healthcare workers

Yes, I caught that, at least you're willing to acknowledge that Front line Healthcare workers are shouldering the vast majority of this... which is the only nice thing I have to say about this post so hooooold on to your buts people!

Of course the Squad is racist they support BDS which is no different than supporting the KKK or CAIR

EXACTLY, ANY organization that's willing to take on the Joker's ex-girlfriend, a half crocodile monster, and a pyromaniac serial murderer as members isn't on the up and up!
#FireWaller

Most racists in 2020 are leftist like Obama is
If we had Dems like Obama 10 millon Americans would be dead and we would no where close to vaccine

Pffffffffffffffffft. Yeah cause Obama would have stripped the US of the pandemic response programs he created for... oh wait. Do you ever do like... research before you post? Like... you could probably find that Trump tore out our pandemic response programs, which Obama put in place, and that absolutely made everything about this pandemic WORSE right? Just like... a WIKI search probably could have told you that. We can argue that we probably WOULDN'T be any closer to the Vaccine than we are now, but there'd be fewer dead... and Trump doesn't have fuck all to do with the vaccine. His cabinet (not even the man himself most days it seems) have leapt onto some bandwagons and are desperately seeking to take credit from the hard work of those who took the epidemic seriously... but none of the shit they're trying to take credit for is actually because of them.

No it is not pathetic to expect the politicians to give something up the parasite in the Democratic congress and states have not given up anything and frankly every business person in the U.S is better than all of them

Actually.... I won't counter this one too hard. I mean I'd insist we add that Republicans (being far and away the party with the most 1%'s) ALSO urgently ought to be expending some of their vast resources to aid the country in recovering here... but some assistance from the ultra wealthy on EVERY side toward protecting the economic structure for small privately owned businesses and those workers displaced by the outbreak wouldn't be ill appreciated. Now you've phrased it poorly, cause you make it sound like Democratic politicians have been selfish hoarders and Republican Politicians have been giving or something... which Trumps current 'give me money for my legal fees' scam laughs in the face of... and Do I think 'every business person in the U.S. is better than ALL of congress,' fuck no! That's some real Atlas Shrugged brand Objectivism there (If you haven't seen it, watch it so you can be in on the greatest comically melodramatic 'nooooooooooooooooooooo!' since Darth Vader). But I know a vast majority of SMALL business owners aren't much different or far removed from the rank and file per hour/per Diem employee's among us and just like us, many of them could use some more help... I just expect that you and I would disagree as to where to we should take the majority of that currency from.

[Dazzle1]

Frontline workers are the healthcare workers

Yes, I caught that, at least you're willing to acknowledge that Front line Healthcare workers are shouldering the vast majority of this... which is the only nice thing I have to say about this post so hooooold on to your buts people!

Of course the Squad is racist they support BDS which is no different than supporting the KKK or CAIR

EXACTLY, ANY organization that's willing to take the Joker's ex-girlfriend, a half crocodile maniac, and a pyromaniac serial murderer on as members isn't on the up and up!
#FireWaller

Most racists in 2020 are leftist like Obama is
If we had Dems like Obama 10 millon Americans would be dead and we would no where close to vaccine [/quote]

Pffffffffffffffffft. Yeah cause Obama would have stripped the US of the pandemic response programs he created for... oh wait. Do you ever do like... research before you post? Like... you could probably find that Trump tore out our pandemic response programs, which Obama put in place, and that absolutely made everything about this pandemic WORSE right? We can argue that we probably WOULDN'T be any closer to the Vaccine than we are now, but there'd be fewer dead... and Trump doesn't have fuck all to do with the vaccine at all. His cabinet (not even the man himself most days it seems) have leapt onto some bandwagons and are desperately seeking to take credit from the hard work of those who took the epidemic seriously...

No it is not pathetic to expect the politicians to give something up the parasite in the Democratic congress and states have not given up anything and frankly every business person in the U.S is better than all of them

I have always ack the health workers are the ones who have made the most sacrfices, I wish you would ack that the business owners have also suffered and as I said we got none of the aid

We have had to close or limit ourselves with no input on the decision.


and yes all the politicians should have to give up their salaries and pensions during the crisis. For all your criticism of Trump he takes no salary

Actually.... I won't counter this one too hard. I mean I'd insist we add that Republicans (being far and away the party with the most 1%'s) ALSO urgently ought to be expending some of their vast resources to aid the country in recovering here... but some assistance from the ultra wealthy on EVERY side toward protecting the economic structure for small privately owned businesses and those workers displaced by the outbreak wouldn't be ill appreciated. Now you've phrased it poorly, cause you make it sound like Democratic politicians have been selfish hoarders and Republican Politicians have been giving or something... which Trumps current 'give me money for my legal fees' scam laughs in the face of... and Do I think 'every business person in the U.S. is better than ALL of congress,' fuck no! That's some real Atlas Shrugged brand Objectivism there (If you haven't seen it, watch it so you can be in on the greatest comically melodramatic 'nooooooooooooooooooooo!' since Darth Vader). But I know a vast majority of SMALL business owners aren't much different or far removed from the rank and file per hour/per Diem employee's among us and just like us, many of them could use some more help... I just expect that you and I would disagree as to where to we should take the majority of that currency from.
[/quote]

[Damselbinder]

You're right. The BDS is no different from the KKK. They absolutely have been personally responsible for flat out murdering people. Oh wait.

"Most racists in 2020 are leftist." Evidence? I mean, I'd probably be of the view that more racists were right-wing, but it's certainly not something I'd declare with the petulant confidence you just did.

Just look at the attacks on whites and Jews on the streets. Who supports BDS: The Squad, leftists.
Trump is pro Israel.

BTW for those who asked about restaurants not being a cause of Covid 19 increase

https://www.bostonherald.com/2020/12/03 ... vid-surge/

"There have been attacks on whites and Jews in the streets. Who supports BDS: The Squad, Leftists."

Uh... do you not... sort of see a missing step in the argument there?

[sugarcoater]

_20201204_083418.JPG

Sugarcoater - don't you feel after 4 years of constant lies, half truths and corruption, Trump has exhausted any benefit of the doubt?
You talk as if the liberal press have an aggressive agenda against him yet it is the entire global press corps that are making the same reporting comments because there is only one position to take when dealing with a regime that calls lies 'alternative facts' and states ' the truth isn't always the truth'.

Look at that graphic, it's that of a third world corrupt regime. Barr did nothing over the Mueller recommendation of investigating the 10 instances of Obstruction that he specifically said needed to be answered. Trump has consistently profited himself and immediate family through the White House which is something he is not supposed to do. Trump labelled the Mueller enquiry as a witch hunt yet it caught 38 real witches.

In regard to the statistic you shared, here's a bit more context to it: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... p-reagan-/

You have some fair points tallyho, but perhaps the matter is not as dire as the statistics make it out to be. Furthermore, we can't ignore how polarized both parties have become. If the two parties weren't so antagonistic to one another, I imagine there would have been significantly fewer indictments. And for how many years was "Russia collusion" a rallying cry for Democrats trying to demonize Trump? And yet where are the cries of "China collusion" with Biden? Seems like both circumstances are somewhat similar (trying to avoid the swanky new term of "bothsideism" in presenting seemingly similar circumstances).

And to be honest, four years of Trump's exaggerations, lies, accurate statements, blowhard comments, attempts to fight against a hostile media, egotistical moves, etc., I am hoping for a more peaceful political time. That said, I'm hardly optimistic.

As for the press, it's a primarily liberal organization these days. After all, the kind of person who becomes a reporter tends to have leftist views. Certain careers tend to reflect leftist or rightist views; the media reflects leftist views. So whether it is American media or global media, it makes sense that they would be anti-Trump. During Trump's four years, I have found myself agreeing with criticism of Trump, yet I have also found myself agreeing with the prejudiced nature of the media's reporting on Trump. Again, just compare the way Biden has been treated compared to Trump by the media. Does Trump at times behave in a manner worthy of contempt? Yes. Should Trump be given harsher treatment by a media that needs to be objective? No. That's the key difference for me. News outlets have become editorial outlets. Don Lemon pathetically crying over the election illustrates the complete lack of objectivity. Can you imagine a single Trump voter being allowed to work for the New York Times? Yet CNN and the NYT are preeminent news outlets. I can imagine a Biden voter being allowed to work for the Wall Street Journal or Fox News. Recall all the "Trump is the new Hitler" claims by various media personalities? Or claims that Trump won't leave the White House if he loses the election? Or how Trump is going to try to go for a third term? Those were serious claims or circumstances discussed on allegedly reputable news outlets. Trump is the person you describe tallyho, though I think he has also done some good during his tenure as president.

I suppose this leads where some comments have begun to transition. Culturally-speaking, the left has become the party of the intolerant and of cancel-culture. Though some mean well, the cure is worse than the disease. What is being created is not a better society but one where people are afraid to engage in any healthy discussion or debate for fear of being cancelled themselves. I mention this because I believe neither party should wield excessive power in the US. Checks and balances are essential to a healthy society. Using California as an example, it is an entirely Democrat state. This has led to the arrogance shown by Newsom's contempt for his own rules, the absurdity of the Bullet Train Boondoggle, the ridiculous taxes, and the gradual exodus from the state. Had there been a counter-party, Newsom might have thought through his hypocrisy, the Bullet Train Boondoggle would not have cost the state the billions and billions it wasted, taxes might be less painful, and businesses and people might actually stay in the state. These are just the initial thoughts that come to mind--there are many others but who wants to read my screed on California politics? I'm just making the point that where I live, having a balanced government creates a healthier environment. With the extreme left pushing forth cancel-culture, race-identity, equity over equality of opportunity, and other measures I see as harmful, I would like to see at least an opposing force creating a healthier balance and more debate over complex issues.
For example, student loan forgiveness is a horrible idea in general, but steps could be taken to ease the burden on young people struggling with a lack of a career and crushing debt. But in hearing the leftist view of just forgiving a massive collection of loans, it reflects a view lacking in perspective or counter opinions. What of the people who opted to go to a cheaper college or not to go to college to avoid going into debt? Or those who have paid off a huge chunk or all their student debt? The matter is much more complex than the trite suggestions thrown out by Biden and others.

Apologies for going off-topic a bit, but somehow in typing my response I felt the points were somewhat connected. As an Independent, I am merely looking for a healthy balance and using a few anecdotes to make that point. Had the media been more balanced in its reporting on Trump, perhaps more people would be critical of Trump. But when those who lean more towards Trump than Clinton/Biden read and see repeated attacks on Trump by a media that should be objective, they will defend Trump in a less-than-objective manner themselves. The media also loses credibility when it becomes partisan, which is dangerous because when they report on an important critical story regarding Trump, many will dismiss it with the claim of "fake news". As a result, we have "onesideism" (just wanted to introduce my own swanky term) when it comes to taking in the news in respective echo chambers.

Now I'm repeating myself, so I'll end here.

[tallyho]

What Biden links to China? The debunked ones the FBI and others have said were part of a Russian misinformation campaign that Guliani seized on and swallowed in a bigly kinda way?
Those ones?
If there were any ( and there aren't,) it pales into insignificance to Trumps secret Chinese connections with undeclared accounts and paying $200,000 in Chinese taxes as opposed to £1500 in 10 years to the US treasury.
I'm not American and I am also outside looking in but dear god no wonder Trump was surprised that the Republican Party was the party of Lincoln because I think Lincoln would be bloody surprised himself if he could see what it's become today.

[sugarcoater]

@ Tallyho

Not sure which ones you're referencing. Here is what I'm referencing: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/j ... cna1245836

And again, no need to draw comparisons to Trump as that has nothing to do with the issue. My point is that the media has been incredibly friendly towards Biden despite this being just as much an issue as Trump's Russia-collusion concern. For all I know, Hunter Biden had some hidden qualities that led to his sweet business hook-ups. But based on the information that came out, one would expect an objective, non-partisan media to delve into the matter--if for no other reason than to exonerate the Bidens.(There was also the media's willingness to let Biden off the hook for not addressing the matter of court-packing, despite that issue being a legitimate topic that should have been discussed at length before the election as it is a major policy issue!)

Trump and China is a separate topic. But to address it, this Forbes article expands on your point (https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexand ... 5d18a2ed11):
"Trump moved from the skyscraper to the White House in 2017, but he held onto ownership of the retail and office space in the building, through his 100% interest in an entity called Trump Tower Commercial LLC. That put him in an unusual position, given that government-owned entities in China hold at least 70% of the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China. Suddenly, a routine real estate deal became a conduit for a foreign superpower to pay the president of the United States."
Doesn't look good. But if China is somehow bribing Trump (I'm assuming that would be the final conclusion for the concern here), then why the tariffs imposed on China? Why the harsh treatment of China? Maybe it's just posturing while some other deal is going through back-channels? I clearly can't say as I obviously am not privy to such information.

As for Lincoln, I don't know if he would be that surprised. After all, I believe he once said, "Human action can be modified to some extent, but human nature cannot be changed." I think he is also credited as having said, "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." Seems like he's got human nature down. I think Lincoln would be more surprised to see our superheroine forum on this thing we call the internet. Or Lynda Carter as Wonder Woman.

[Damselbinder]

@ Tallyho

Not sure which ones you're referencing. Here is what I'm referencing: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/j ... cna1245836

And again, no need to draw comparisons to Trump as that has nothing to do with the issue. My point is that the media has been incredibly friendly towards Biden despite this being just as much an issue as Trump's Russia-collusion concern. For all I know, Hunter Biden had some hidden qualities that led to his sweet business hook-ups. But based on the information that came out, one would expect an objective, non-partisan media to delve into the matter--if for no other reason than to exonerate the Bidens.(There was also the media's willingness to let Biden off the hook for not addressing the matter of court-packing, despite that issue being a legitimate topic that should have been discussed at length before the election as it is a major policy issue!)

Trump and China is a separate topic. But to address it, this Forbes article expands on your point (https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexand ... 5d18a2ed11):
"Trump moved from the skyscraper to the White House in 2017, but he held onto ownership of the retail and office space in the building, through his 100% interest in an entity called Trump Tower Commercial LLC. That put him in an unusual position, given that government-owned entities in China hold at least 70% of the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China. Suddenly, a routine real estate deal became a conduit for a foreign superpower to pay the president of the United States."
Doesn't look good. But if China is somehow bribing Trump (I'm assuming that would be the final conclusion for the concern here), then why the tariffs imposed on China? Why the harsh treatment of China? Maybe it's just posturing while some other deal is going through back-channels? I clearly can't say as I obviously am not privy to such information.

As for Lincoln, I don't know if he would be that surprised. After all, I believe he once said, "Human action can be modified to some extent, but human nature cannot be changed." I think he is also credited as having said, "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." Seems like he's got human nature down. I think Lincoln would be more surprised to see our superheroine forum on this thing we call the internet. Or Lynda Carter as Wonder Woman.

Two platitudes don't make you Sigmund Freud. And there's nothing to delve into if there's nothing there. If something's been debunked it's been debunked. You're drinking deep from the well of the fallacy of the golden mean.

[sugarcoater]

@ Tallyho

Not sure which ones you're referencing. Here is what I'm referencing: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/j ... cna1245836

And again, no need to draw comparisons to Trump as that has nothing to do with the issue. My point is that the media has been incredibly friendly towards Biden despite this being just as much an issue as Trump's Russia-collusion concern. For all I know, Hunter Biden had some hidden qualities that led to his sweet business hook-ups. But based on the information that came out, one would expect an objective, non-partisan media to delve into the matter--if for no other reason than to exonerate the Bidens.(There was also the media's willingness to let Biden off the hook for not addressing the matter of court-packing, despite that issue being a legitimate topic that should have been discussed at length before the election as it is a major policy issue!)

Trump and China is a separate topic. But to address it, this Forbes article expands on your point (https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexand ... 5d18a2ed11):
"Trump moved from the skyscraper to the White House in 2017, but he held onto ownership of the retail and office space in the building, through his 100% interest in an entity called Trump Tower Commercial LLC. That put him in an unusual position, given that government-owned entities in China hold at least 70% of the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China. Suddenly, a routine real estate deal became a conduit for a foreign superpower to pay the president of the United States."
Doesn't look good. But if China is somehow bribing Trump (I'm assuming that would be the final conclusion for the concern here), then why the tariffs imposed on China? Why the harsh treatment of China? Maybe it's just posturing while some other deal is going through back-channels? I clearly can't say as I obviously am not privy to such information.

As for Lincoln, I don't know if he would be that surprised. After all, I believe he once said, "Human action can be modified to some extent, but human nature cannot be changed." I think he is also credited as having said, "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." Seems like he's got human nature down. I think Lincoln would be more surprised to see our superheroine forum on this thing we call the internet. Or Lynda Carter as Wonder Woman.

Two platitudes don't make you Sigmund Freud. And there's nothing to delve into if there's nothing there. If something's been debunked it's been debunked. You're drinking deep from the well of the fallacy of the golden mean.

@ Damselbinder

Didn't think throwing out two quotes in a facetious assessment of what Lincoln might think of life in 2020 was somehow making me Sigmund Freud. You seem irritated by that for some reason. As for nothing to delve into if there's nothing there, to what are you referring as Tallyho and I referenced a few different topics? Last I checked, these were topics being discussed in parts of the media to varying degrees. Are you suggesting the media is treating Biden just as it treated Trump? Or are you suggesting Hunter Biden is somehow a highly qualified director for a Ukrainian energy company and that his hiring had nothing to do with his presidential connections?
As I wrote, I am fully acknowledging my limited knowledge. And I only bring up these points to suggest that the media has made the conscious choice to closely scrutinize and criticize one candidate while treating the other candidate with kid gloves.

You seem angry and quick to retort. May I assume you support Biden and hate Trump? Might that not lead you to drink from some metaphorical well of prejudice against a perspective to which you do not agree?
How about instead we engage in a polite discussion and you can share your perspectives and perhaps we can agree or disagree but still part this thread amicably?

[Imagineer]

The prejudice against Donnie is completely earned. He is a malignant narcissist with a public record decades long.

That doesn't mean his actions can't produce any positive result, and even the not-by-any-reasonable-definition "liberal" media has dutifully reported the occasional positive result -- but giving him the benefit of the doubt? That's just plain stupid.

[Femina]

The prejudice against Donnie is completely earned. He is a malignant narcissist with a public record decades long.

That doesn't mean his actions can't produce any positive result, and even the not-by-any-reasonable-definition "liberal" media has dutifully reported the occasional positive result -- but giving him the benefit of the doubt? That's just plain stupid.

Right? The Benefit of the doubt is something you afford someone whose proven themselves trustworthy in the past.

Trump can't speak more than a sentence or two before a lie tumbles loose. He lies so much, so often it truly baffles me that anybody in the world, much less half of America, can possibly buy his bullshit... yet they do. Giving Trump the benefit of the doubt is like handing a Serial Killer a knife and telling them to be nice.

[tallyho]

The prejudice against Donnie is completely earned. He is a malignant narcissist with a public record decades long.

That doesn't mean his actions can't produce any positive result, and even the not-by-any-reasonable-definition "liberal" media has dutifully reported the occasional positive result -- but giving him the benefit of the doubt? That's just plain stupid.

Giving Trump the benefit of the doubt is like handing a Serial Killer a knife and telling them to be nice.

"Anakin can you watch the Younglings for a bit?"

[Imagineer]

I don't think analogies are necessary or adequate to clarify the fact that we elected a malignant narcissist President of the United States.

Maybe next time we'll elect someone who actually wants to kill us all just for spite.

[Femina]

I don't think analogies are necessary or adequate to clarify the fact that we elected a malignant narcissist President of the United States.

Maybe next time we'll elect someone who actually wants to kill us all just for spite.

But..... but then what would we use analogies for? :(

[Imagineer]

I don't know, for clarifying the thinking of his apologists and followers?

It just seems weird to reach for analogies for what used to be a trope in fiction, and pretty thoroughly explored in reality.

So many tropes are headed for the scrapheap as a result of this Presidency and the events that it frames -- which is not necessarily all good or bad, just interesting. The 2020s may be like the 1970s, with a whole new set of storytelling ideas, messages, and techniques.

I'd very much like to live to see it.

[Bert]

As for the press, it's a primarily liberal organization these days. After all, the kind of person who becomes a reporter tends to have leftist views. Certain careers tend to reflect leftist or rightist views; the media reflects leftist views. So whether it is American media or global media, it makes sense that they would be anti-Trump. During Trump's four years, I have found myself agreeing with criticism of Trump, yet I have also found myself agreeing with the prejudiced nature of the media's reporting on Trump.

This attitude that American conservatives accept so completely, so unquestioningly, it just astonishes me.

Here is the unvarnished truth: Legacy media don't criticize Donald Trump relentlessly because they are liberal or leftist, they do it because he keeps doing awful things. It's a convenient crutch for conservatives to simply chalk up criticism of Trump as being ideologically driven. That gives them tacit permission to ignore the criticism. But it simply isn't true.

Donald Trump had a decades long, extremely public record of being a horror show of a human being before he ever entered politics. Trump has been credibly accused of rape multiple times. He has bragged about entering the dressing rooms of beauty pageants he owned, including teen beauty pageants, and ogling the undressed contestants. He bragged on tape to a reporter about using his fame to sexually assault women. His normal business practice in real estate construction is to hire contractors but only pay them pennies on the dollar after the work is completed and challenge them to sue him, while indicating that his lawyers will draw out court proceedings for years. I could fill pages with similar, very well documented examples of Trump's amoral, abusive, underhanded tactics. He is a terrible, terrible human being who has abused his vast inherited wealth to game the system for decades.

When he became president, Trump continued to operate as he always had. Lie, cheat, steal, repeat. His conduct as president has been so unbelievably egregious that simply reporting on it in a straightforward way makes legacy media appear biased. What are they supposed to do? Choose not to report on his abuses of power so conservatives won't think they are biased? That's insane. Furthermore, much of the media's criticism of Trump doesn't have anything to do with political ideology because many of Trump's abuses are not ideological, they are simply corrupt.

My conservative American friends, please try to understand what I'm saying. Politically speaking, Donald Trump is a unique animal. He couldn't care less about conservative principles. He used to be a registered Democrat. He used to be pro-choice. Donald Trump is no avatar for Republicanism. Donald Trump cares about one thing and one thing only: Donald Trump. So when the press enumerates his daily assaults on democracy, norms, decency, fairness and truth, ask yourself "Is this man being maligned because he is a Republican, or is he just doing awful things to benefit himself".

[tallyho]

Also it's GLOBAL media all behaving in the same way. I doubt the Guatamalan press has an anti Republican agenda. Or the Khatmandu Herald.
BUT let's just call it media bias and then we don't actually have to address any of the issues that are being raised.
If a pathological liar says he didn't do something, the chances are that he did and, wait for it.... is LYING.

[tallyho]

I heard 3000+ dead yesterday.

The care workers must be exhausted, poor sods.

That keeps up and 60,000+, won't live to see Christmas.

And still he golfs.

[Femina]

'Media' in the terms of 'the news' (and honestly one might question whether 'media' was invented to chalk up the same forms of directed skepticism towards the news with more subtlety and less clumsily than the current 'Fake News' moniker) is at its very core and nature intending to deal with FACTS, or else clearly outlining opinion pieces. Opinion pieces in themselves should often be considered as a 'the factual opinion' of an influential Mr. Soandso (meaning that it is in fact... the opinion of Mr. Soandso, not necessarily that the opinion of Mr. Soandso holds is itself dealing in facts)

So to clarify, the CENTER of Media, it's very core purpose, is to report the factual nature of things that are occurring in order to keep the world at large aware of their surroundings. Now, one could argue how far off that center the media has fallen, but I would impress upon you the understanding that when people dedicated themselves, their youth, and their schooling towards studying to enter into a media based profession, the vast vast majority of them are doing so because they have lofty ideas about being involved in the business of getting the truth out to the masses.

Considering that so many employees within the Media are at least mildly invested in the telling of truth, it is therefore little wonder at all that a President whose pants are so continuously on fire as Donald Drumph should find himself the target of their ridicule and fact checking. EVERY President runs up against criticism, EVERY President has their actions and choices argued about in opinion pieces and what the nature of their decisions mean for America and the rest of the world... Trump is the first modern President who from the very beginning to the end, is consistently in the news not to debate what his actions and choices mean, but to question how much truth there is in what he says... if any.

When you have a President who lies so casually as Trump that the topic of discussion becomes not IF he is lying, but WHY he is lying, it is no wonder at all that an infrastructure primarily based around the dispensation of Truth would have a tsunami of criticisms to offer.

It's not that the media is uniquely prejudiced against Trump. The Media is made up of human beings, we're always prejudiced against certain things, every President is the subject of a degree prejudice. There's no special sauce that everyone has taken that makes Trump 'the extra targeted'. Everything about the nature of the Media's relationship with Donald Trump makes perfect sense.

[Bert]

And I would add that responsible media pay very strict care to journalistic integrity. That means many things, including that facts must be verified by an independent source before they make it into the paper or broadcast. Journalism is an honorable profession. That doesn't mean mistakes never happen, but quality media like the New York Times strive to deliver accurate information. If a media entity has a good reputation, the best people will gravitate towards it. The PBS News hour is a good example. Excellent reporters, excellent guests, and a concerted effort to offer a fair viewpoint.

[tallyho]

27 out of 249 Congressional Republicans acknowledge Biden as the winner a month after the vote.
Absolutely pathetic.THIS is the Republican Party? They aren't even putting any pressure on him to ACTUALLY lead in a time of desperate national (and global) crisis.
1 MILLION cases in DECEMBER in the states and December is just FIVE DAYS OLD,
I hate to say it, but the ' play - golf- to - stop - the - virus - spread' strategy doesn't seem to be working.

[bushwackerbob]

And I would add that responsible media pay very strict care to journalistic integrity. That means many things, including that facts must be verified by an independent source before they make it into the paper or broadcast. Journalism is an honorable profession. That doesn't mean mistakes never happen, but quality media like the New York Times strive to deliver accurate information. If a media entity has a good reputation, the best people will gravitate towards it. The PBS News hour is a good example. Excellent reporters, excellent guests, and a concerted effort to offer a fair viewpoint.

When you have folks at the NY Times actually admitting that you have to throw out traditional journalistic standards in order to cover Trump, I believe those words are fairly self evident. The lying assholes don't even try to deny it anymore. Ted Koppel, famously of ABC's Nightline fame recently did an interview where he basically sounded off on his belief that The NY Times and Washington Post in particular do not possess the same values and integrity that it had 50 years ago. Ted was not having any of that. Sadly, for those who pay attention and are truly knowledgeable about the media here in America, there are no more legendary and objective journalists like Tim Russert's around anymore.

[Damselbinder]

I feel like we're going in circles. You have to throw out traditional journalistic standards to cover Trump because ordinarily being as critical of a particular political figure outside of an editorial would be inappropriate. However, because Trump lies so bald-facedly, and so often, it's necessary for authentic news journalism to correct him, and point out that he's lying, constantly. Plus, he's so deliberately adversarial to the media. Anyone who disagrees is "fake news." He tells his supporters "what you're seeing, what you're hearing, that's not what's happening. He describes media as "enem[ies] of the people." Presidents and newspapers have butted heads before - just look at Nixon - but never like this. Didn't you think to ask WHY "folks at the NY Times" would say something like that, openly?

[bushwackerbob]

Whenever you throw out traditional journalistic standards, you leave yourself open to throwing out the truth if it does not fit one's narrative, that if you throw out traditional journalistic standards, you cease to be a journalistic organization. If one changes who one is, or how one operates, then you cease being you, that objective news source, then you become fake news, an agenda driven propaganda arm of the Democratic Party. The NY Times guy actually said that the paper becomes more oppositional. I take that to mean that they abandon traditional standards to fight Trump. I don't know how you folks in Canada and the UK feel about journalism, but here in America, if you abandon the traditional values of journalism and turn into the opposition, you are taking a side and advocating that side. That is not journalism. I think the guy at Times accidentally spoke the truth, which is a rare trait for someone who works at the Times. I think that it is never OK to abandon traditional journalistic standards.

[Damselbinder]

No it's cool, I can do the whole rest of the argument too.

Me: "Well no, because the whole point is you have one guy massively lying, and the other side behaving, at worst, like normal politicians."
You: "It only seems that way because the fake news media are only focusing on Trump, something something crooked Hillary something something Hunter Biden."
Me: "Well those things aren't real, and even if they were, Biden and Clinton haven't been so baldly hostile to the concept of news itself"
You: "No that's against journalistic standards, journalists have to report the facts and only the facts"
Me: "Cool, I agree, and what if the facts are that one side of the aisle in particular are lying through their teeth and being hostile to journalism itself"
You: "They're not, it's just the fake news media trying to portray themselves as victims what about the emails"


Ad infinitum.

[tallyho]

And it then permeates the rest of the administration making it equally corrupt

This is the US Ambassador to the Netherlands 2 years ago. Taking a lead from his boss.




Let's hope this week sees the infection rates ease. Stay safe every one

[bushwackerbob]

It would be one thing if some of these lamestream media platforms point out "he lied here and there, that is simply false", and end it there, but these Lamestream media folks let their personal animus against Trump infect almost nearly every story they do. When I asked my dearly departed Mom, a diehard liberal, why they get so many things wrong about Trump, she said "They just don't like him". A professional and objective media organization rises above any personal animus they may have against the president.

[Damselbinder]

"Lamestream."


Alright then.

[bushwackerbob]

"Lamestream."


Alright then.

You try living here buddy, with all of the lies and bullshit that the media tries to shove down our throats. You have no friggin clue. I love how folks who don't even live here try to tell me that our media organizations here are journalistic paragons of virtue. Whoever is feeding you that line of garbage is lying to you.

[Damselbinder]

You are aware of the Internet, right? I have plenty of direct access to your media.

[Bert]

When you have folks at the NY Times actually admitting that you have to throw out traditional journalistic standards in order to cover Trump, I believe those words are fairly self evident. The lying assholes don't even try to deny it anymore. Ted Koppel, famously of ABC's Nightline fame recently did an interview where he basically sounded off on his belief that The NY Times and Washington Post in particular do not possess the same values and integrity that it had 50 years ago. Ted was not having any of that. Sadly, for those who pay attention and are truly knowledgeable about the media here in America, there are no more legendary and objective journalists like Tim Russert's around anymore.

The ethics uproar at the NYT occurred because the paper ran an incendiary column by Republican Senator Tom Cotton where he advocated for using the U.S. military to quell demonstrations against police violence. Employees of the paper broke rules about publicly disagreeing with editorial choices, on the grounds that the column put Black reporters' lives at risk. So you see, the issue was that the paper bent too far in trying to accommodate extreme right views like using the military against its own citizens. This hardly justifies the perspective that legacy media is too left-leaning.

Once again, please try to put yourself in the position of a respected news organization trying to cover American politics during the Trump era. The U.S. president is constantly saying, publicly, that any coverage of him that is less than fawning is fake news. He consistently refers to media as "the enemy of the people". He singles out and insults individual reporters. He works night and day to de-legitimatize a critical pillar of democracy. And most importantly, he keeps lying and doing awful things, which media is obliged to report on. What's happening here is obvious. Trump purposely attacks the media to reduce people's trust. Then when he acts in ways that draw media criticism, he chalks it up to bias. And you guys are buying it! You are being manipulated by Donald Trump. Either that or every major non-Fox News media outlet around the world is in on a giant conspiracy to abandon journalistic integrity and unfairly malign Trump. Occam's Razor, people.

[bushwackerbob]

The Internet? Where social media organizations tried to cover up for Biden's cokehead son, blocked news organizations on Twitter, censored conservative voices, that Internet? One does truly not get the the whole American media experience just by surfing the net. You can click off your laptop or whatever and go to your BBC, you can drop in, parachute in and get a taste of what it is like here, but you can escape the media misinformation networks here, but I live and breathe this crap every day, big difference.

[Damselbinder]

Yeah, that Internet, exactly.

[bushwackerbob]

When you have folks at the NY Times actually admitting that you have to throw out traditional journalistic standards in order to cover Trump, I believe those words are fairly self evident. The lying assholes don't even try to deny it anymore. Ted Koppel, famously of ABC's Nightline fame recently did an interview where he basically sounded off on his belief that The NY Times and Washington Post in particular do not possess the same values and integrity that it had 50 years ago. Ted was not having any of that. Sadly, for those who pay attention and are truly knowledgeable about the media here in America, there are no more legendary and objective journalists like Tim Russert's around anymore.

The ethics uproar at the NYT occurred because the paper ran an incendiary column by Republican Senator Tom Cotton where he advocated for using the U.S. military to quell demonstrations against police violence. Employees of the paper broke rules about publicly disagreeing with editorial choices, on the grounds that the column put Black reporters' lives at risk. So you see, the issue was that the paper bent too far in trying to accommodate extreme right views like using the military against its own citizens. This hardly justifies the perspective that legacy media is too left-leaning.

Once again, please try to put yourself in the position of a respected news organization trying to cover American politics during the Trump era. The U.S. president is constantly saying, publicly, that any coverage of him that is less than fawning is fe news. He consistently refers to media as "the enemy of the people". He singles out and insults individual reporters. He works night and day to de-legitimatize a critical pillar of democracy. And most importantly, he keeps lying and doing awful things, which media is obliged to report on. What's happening here is obvious. Trump purposely attacks the media to reduce people's trust. Then when he acts in ways that draw media criticism, he chalks it up to bias. And you guys are buying it! You are being manipulated by Donald Trump. Either that or every major non-Fox News media outlet around the world is in on a giant conspiracy to abandon journalistic integrity and unfairly malign Trump. Occam's Razor, people.

If I had reporters lying about me, I would single them out as well. The media lies about him to reduce people's support of him, so I do not see any problem with Trump seeking payback. Three years of this bullshit over Russian collusion, Mueller finds no evidence, no apology from the media organizations. Some of these talking heads at the networks were talking about the possibility of the FBI coming to arrest Trump in the Oval office, assuming guilt. An objective journalistic organization with standards would have acknowledged their reporting was inaccurate. Did you know that during the investigation Mueller actually had to address false and inaccurate reporting in regards to the investigation, that Mueller took the unusual step of coming out and making a statement and categorically refuting false reporting about the investigation. I remember when Bush 43 was president and the media came out with unfair stories about him, and Bush's administration almost never pushed back against the lies and misinformation. A lot of people thought Bush was weak and that he should have corrected the record more, so here we have a president who calls the media into account for media malpractice. That is a good thing in my view.

[Damselbinder]

Please quote exactly what Mueller said about that, if you'd be so kind.

[bushwackerbob]

Please quote exactly what Mueller said about that, if you'd be so kind.

There was a BuzzFeed story that said that Mueller learned that Trump's personal lawyer Michael Cohen said that Trump instructed Cohen to lie to Congress. Mueller took the highly unusual step of correcting the record on that point.

[Damselbinder]

And tell me.

Did the Post and the Times report that Mueller had made this correction?

[bushwackerbob]

I believe they call that committing a random act of journalism, LOL! You know what they say, even a broken clock is right twice a day!

[Damselbinder]

Why, what an argumentatively convenient little axiom you've found for yourself. Well done.