Living in the shadow of the corona virus

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Bert

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

Covid-19 is currently the third leading cause of death in the U.S., trailing only heart disease and cancer. But my source is Scientific American so, you know, if Bill's uncle's chiropractor says otherwise you should probably believe him.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Femina »

swampy170 wrote: 2 years ago Talk of spikes etc. at this point. Irrelevant.

We have never got rid of a coronavirus that has become endemic, even those we do have vaccines for. It simply will not happen.

In fact, the only virus that was technically eradicated is Smallpox (technically, as we still see small outbreaks even now), and that is a fundamentally different proposition to Covid-19. We have never eradicated any other endemic virus in all of human history.

Covid-19 is here to stay, FOREVER. Vaccine or not.

It's not about "spikes" it's keeping those vulnerable protected, slowing the spread - which is what lockdowns do while also destroying vast swathes of businesses and giving people substantial other health concerns.
It also serves to prevent bodies from piling up in the streets or on the pier, drawing in rats and insects and all manner of whatever diseased filth that comes with that. REGARDLESS of the illnesses death rates, its INFECTION is so widely spread that the death rates result in an unprecedented volume of DEAD per day when compared to ANY other illness since the dark ages. Covid-19 follows pretty much perfectly, the 'Plague Inc' strategies for total global infection which NO OTHER illness has EVER accomplished in the modern age. In a purely 'logical' sense, that adds into this the inclusion of an element of not SWAMPING our ability to clean up after the disease so that we don't wind up fighting say... Covid-19 AND Bubonic Plague at the SAME TIME because we couldn't be bothered to care about anything more than our fucking profit margins. If you're so worried about business's going under, maybe go campaign for Jeff Bezos to quit building his little Masturbation spaceship and put some of that Scrooge Mcduck gold back into circulation.
For the vast, VAST majority of the population - Covid-19 is of minimal risk. Certainly no more risk than a standard annual flu outbreak.

Calm down.
This was the very sentiment that pervaded the world when we first learned that China was closing its movie theaters. It's clearly FAR MORE risk than the standard annual flu outbreak. Once more DEATH RATES of infected count far less here than INFECTION rates. Covid-19's vectors are far and away one of the most difficult to protect oneself from outside taking preventative measures AHEAD of it. Additionally, it's an OUTSTANDING trail virus to test our preparedness for something even WORSE. So if our response to Covid ammounts to 'eh... it's only killing ten percent of us? What's the Big Fuckin' Deal mkay?' then be it on our own heads when the first strain of 'stealth' Ebola gets loose in the global sphere. How we respond to THIS, is emblematic of how we will respond to ANYTHING... and right now what America's situation tells us is, when something WORSE hits, we're all gonna be fucking dead because of attitudes like yours.
Yes, people's lives are ending due to Covid - their mean age is 82. People at the end of their lives die, it's a fact of life.
If not Covid-19, then flu, dementia, a cold, relatives who want their inheritance etc. Death is a fact of life.
This is a stupid argument to present, and lacks empathy, humanity and compassion. Therefore I find no reason to present argument against it, as the argument itself is so full of shit that I don't envy you being the one to present it to a cold audience.

"Oh whew... it's just grandma you guys? We sure dodged that bullet. The only loss here is the Christmas Soufflé" - Yeah, f'k off with that shit.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by swampy170 »

Femina wrote: 2 years ago
swampy170 wrote: 2 years ago Talk of spikes etc. at this point. Irrelevant.

We have never got rid of a coronavirus that has become endemic, even those we do have vaccines for. It simply will not happen.

In fact, the only virus that was technically eradicated is Smallpox (technically, as we still see small outbreaks even now), and that is a fundamentally different proposition to Covid-19. We have never eradicated any other endemic virus in all of human history.

Covid-19 is here to stay, FOREVER. Vaccine or not.

It's not about "spikes" it's keeping those vulnerable protected, slowing the spread - which is what lockdowns do while also destroying vast swathes of businesses and giving people substantial other health concerns.
It also serves to prevent bodies from piling up in the streets or on the pier, drawing in rats and insects and all manner of whatever diseased filth that comes with that. REGARDLESS of the illnesses death rates, its INFECTION is so widely spread that the death rates result in an unprecedented volume of DEAD per day when compared to ANY other illness since the dark ages. Covid-19 follows pretty much perfectly, the 'Plague Inc' strategies for total global infection which NO OTHER illness has EVER accomplished in the modern age. In a purely 'logical' sense, that adds into this the inclusion of an element of not SWAMPING our ability to clean up after the disease so that we don't wind up fighting say... Covid-19 AND Bubonic Plague at the SAME TIME because we couldn't be bothered to care about anything more than our fucking profit margins. If you're so worried about business's going under, maybe go campaign for Jeff Bezos to quit building his little Masturbation spaceship and put some of that Scrooge Mcduck gold back into circulation.
For the vast, VAST majority of the population - Covid-19 is of minimal risk. Certainly no more risk than a standard annual flu outbreak.

Calm down.
This was the very sentiment that pervaded the world when we first learned that China was closing its movie theaters. It's clearly FAR MORE risk than the standard annual flu outbreak. Once more DEATH RATES of infected count far less here than INFECTION rates. Covid-19's vectors are far and away one of the most difficult to protect oneself from outside taking preventative measures AHEAD of it. Additionally, it's an OUTSTANDING trail virus to test our preparedness for something even WORSE. So if our response to Covid ammounts to 'eh... it's only killing ten percent of us? What's the Big Fuckin' Deal mkay?' then be it on our own heads when the first strain of 'stealth' Ebola gets loose in the global sphere. How we respond to THIS, is emblematic of how we will respond to ANYTHING... and right now what America's situation tells us is, when something WORSE hits, we're all gonna be fucking dead because of attitudes like yours.
Yes, people's lives are ending due to Covid - their mean age is 82. People at the end of their lives die, it's a fact of life.
If not Covid-19, then flu, dementia, a cold, relatives who want their inheritance etc. Death is a fact of life.
This is a stupid argument to present, and lacks empathy, humanity and compassion. Therefore I find no reason to present argument against it, as the argument itself is so full of shit that I don't envy you being the one to present it to a cold audience.

"Oh whew... it's just grandma you guys? We sure dodged that bullet. The only loss here is the Christmas Soufflé" - Yeah, f'k off with that shit.
You miss the point entirely - Covid-19 is out there, the can is open, the toothpaste is out of the tube.

There was a small period of time where the lid could have been put on - unfortunately that time was taken up by the Chinese attempting to keep it on the quiet.

The official timeline has crept back in time, and there are identified international cases potentially as early as November 2019.

The time for stopping it was already over by March, let alone now.

When addressing a new endemic virus with potentially serious outcomes for substantial numbers of people, emotion has very little place in the equation. It's about cold hard facts, and the balance of outcomes.

Someone in their 30's dying is a HUGELY greater cost to society, than the death of someone in their 80's.

Indeed, there are not that many grandparents who would prefer to see their 30-year-old grand child die instead of them.

Lockdowns, demonstrably, are killing younger people. It's not ok.

We have a social contract, that the young in our society undertake the burden - directly or through taxes, of paying for the care of the elderly. If the young are incapable (which they will be with the direction we are taking), the elderly will be destitute. A far worse way to die, than a short respiratory illness.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by swampy170 »

I should add to the above - yes, we absolutely need sensible measures in place.

Mask wearing, if it makes you feel better - but it's doing very little.

Social distancing, increased hygiene standards society-wide, and maintaining changes to work culture to continue limited contact are all sensible measures while a vaccine is approved for the elderly and specific at-risk groups to take.

For anyone under 50 without comorbidities, the risk of a negative outcome from taking a vaccine is sufficient (when compared to the small risk of negative virus outcomes) that there's not really any good reason they should take one - but if they want it, why not.

Lockdowns, destroying the economy, are not sensible measures - and will exacerbate the gap that was already opening in the resources available to take care of an aging population

Gaps that have been growing in all Western nations over the last 2 decades or so.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

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If I read some of the posts here....I can only do this...

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....relax....don't reply to the issues.....

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P.S.: Please "un-thank" me swampy.... :laugh:
P.S 2: I'm NOT at all relaxed about COVID....I need to relax to not reply to the issues here as I may get in trouble....
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

swampy170 wrote: 2 years ago
For anyone under 50 without comorbidities, the risk of a negative outcome from taking a vaccine is sufficient (when compared to the small risk of negative virus outcomes) that there's not really any good reason they should take one - but if they want it, why not.
I would dispute this as clearly the reason to have it is not to become a carrier for the disease and so give it to those who ARE going to be at greater risk?
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by swampy170 »

tallyho wrote: 2 years ago
swampy170 wrote: 2 years ago
For anyone under 50 without comorbidities, the risk of a negative outcome from taking a vaccine is sufficient (when compared to the small risk of negative virus outcomes) that there's not really any good reason they should take one - but if they want it, why not.
I would dispute this as clearly the reason to have it is not to become a carrier for the disease and so give it to those who ARE going to be at greater risk?
Not at all. Those at greater risk will be vaccinated.

If you're worried we won't have herd immunity for those who are incapable of taking the vaccine - you needn't, as there are already cold viruses with the requisite proteins similar to Covid-19 in the population. These give a sufficient measure of immunity to ensure herd immunity is there in addition to the vaccine program.

Herd immunity starts to come in at around ~58%, we're about there presently - so with the additional population vaccinated, there'll be more than enough.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Femina »

swampy170 wrote: 2 years ago I should add to the above - yes, we absolutely need sensible measures in place.

Mask wearing, if it makes you feel better - but it's doing very little.

Social distancing, increased hygiene standards society-wide, and maintaining changes to work culture to continue limited contact are all sensible measures while a vaccine is approved for the elderly and specific at-risk groups to take.

For anyone under 50 without comorbidities, the risk of a negative outcome from taking a vaccine is sufficient (when compared to the small risk of negative virus outcomes) that there's not really any good reason they should take one - but if they want it, why not.

Lockdowns, destroying the economy, are not sensible measures - and will exacerbate the gap that was already opening in the resources available to take care of an aging population

Gaps that have been growing in all Western nations over the last 2 decades or so.
I'll say at least this is more sensible than I was giving you credit for (In my defense, my blood is up a bit due to Mr. X's complete bullshit) but for leaping on your back claws out I apologize.

I'd still like to profess that the 'can of worms' metaphor doesn't change how we ought to be responding with preventative measures. It's still of utmost importance we don't just go 'eh' and let the illness go hogwild all at once and shatter our ability ability to respond to the workload... which is REALLY all that the CDC was ever pleading with us to do. Nobody ever expected America to go into COMPLETE lockdown... I suspect the fundamental nature of our countries inception essentially prevents that from ever being a possibility, the preventative measures we're asked to take are merely to ensure we don't fill up the hospitals, and then morgues, to the point where we have to start leaving dead bodies out in the open where they present further issue.

I'd also argue that simply because a thing occurs and battling it can only 'stall' it, doesn't mean the best option for you isn't to stall. If you're options for dealing with a problem are 'do something' or 'do nothing' do SOMETHING should be the route to take unless 'do nothing' is going to factually make things better or provide further benefits(like say, you've got a wild cat around the house you don't want... but he's keeping the mice away. Do Nothing is therefore a response that can be taken that results in notable benefits) with Covid, we already know that if we do NOTHING, it results in spikes that put undue pressure on our local healthcare process. If we take precautions, we can spread it out.

That's ALL we're asking the idiots to wear their masks for. Not because we imagine it's going to be a miracle cure to the situation, because it's an EASY precaution to take to assist the world in coping with the problem in a manageable way and reduce unnecessary deaths until the vaccine becomes available.
Bert

Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

swampy170 wrote: 2 years ago For anyone under 50 without comorbidities, the risk of a negative outcome from taking a vaccine is sufficient (when compared to the small risk of negative virus outcomes) that there's not really any good reason they should take one...
As a general rule, arguing with swampy is like punching yourself in the face repeatedly - aggravating with no hope of a satisfying outcome. Most of what he has written here is complete bullshit but I just don't care enough to do a point by point takedown. I've already disproved his bizarre contention that covid isn't in the top ten of reasons people are dying. But I will single out one other particularly dangerous point he made, as quoted above. Even if what swampy says here is true, which it obviously isn't, those people should still get vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. If enough people get vaccinated, current thinking seems to be around 75%, then those who can't for medical reasons or because they're anti-vax idiots will still be protected from outbreaks.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

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Femina wrote: 2 years ago
swampy170 wrote: 2 years ago I should add to the above - yes, we absolutely need sensible measures in place.

Mask wearing, if it makes you feel better - but it's doing very little.

Social distancing, increased hygiene standards society-wide, and maintaining changes to work culture to continue limited contact are all sensible measures while a vaccine is approved for the elderly and specific at-risk groups to take.

For anyone under 50 without comorbidities, the risk of a negative outcome from taking a vaccine is sufficient (when compared to the small risk of negative virus outcomes) that there's not really any good reason they should take one - but if they want it, why not.

Lockdowns, destroying the economy, are not sensible measures - and will exacerbate the gap that was already opening in the resources available to take care of an aging population

Gaps that have been growing in all Western nations over the last 2 decades or so.
I'll say at least this is more sensible than I was giving you credit for (In my defense, my blood is up a bit due to Mr. X's complete bullshit) but for leaping on your back claws out I apologize.

I'd still like to profess that the 'can of worms' metaphor doesn't change how we ought to be responding with preventative measures. It's still of utmost importance we don't just go 'eh' and let the illness go hogwild all at once and shatter our ability ability to respond to the workload... which is REALLY all that the CDC was ever pleading with us to do. Nobody ever expected America to go into COMPLETE lockdown... I suspect the fundamental nature of our countries inception essentially prevents that from ever being a possibility, the preventative measures we're asked to take are merely to ensure we don't fill up the hospitals, and then morgues, to the point where we have to start leaving dead bodies out in the open where they present further issue.

I'd also argue that simply because a thing occurs and battling it can only 'stall' it, doesn't mean the best option for you isn't to stall. If you're options for dealing with a problem are 'do something' or 'do nothing' do SOMETHING should be the route to take unless 'do nothing' is going to factually make things better or provide further benefits(like say, you've got a wild cat around the house you don't want... but he's keeping the mice away. Do Nothing is therefore a response that can be taken that results in notable benefits) with Covid, we already know that if we do NOTHING, it results in spikes that put undue pressure on our local healthcare process. If we take precautions, we can spread it out.

That's ALL we're asking the idiots to wear their masks for. Not because we imagine it's going to be a miracle cure to the situation, because it's an EASY precaution to take to assist the world in coping with the problem in a manageable way and reduce unnecessary deaths until the vaccine becomes available.
It's a discussion, I don't take negative feelings away. It's the internet after all!

The UK government have done an impeccable job of spreading fear-inducing propaganda. Which has done its job and driven people to follow the rules.

But it is important to take an objective view! - For the record, where mandated I wear a mask. But I am not happy that my ability to make the decision if it is a sensible and necessary precaution has been taken away - and will be voting accordingly in future.

Absolutely, actions are necessary - but they need to be proportionate! The tiered strategy in the UK was working, and without ridiculous additions like 10PM closing would have stood a good chance of keeping the public on-side.

Traffic on the motorways alone right now, demonstrates very, very few people are keeping to lockdown as intended.

The lockdown strategy is akin to King Knute standing on the beach and ordering the tide to turn. It simply is not how you sensibly deal with a virus like Covid-19. Lockdowns only slow the spread, it's not possible to stop it - and the government (and opposition parties) should not pretend it is.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

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Bert wrote: 2 years ago
swampy170 wrote: 2 years ago For anyone under 50 without comorbidities, the risk of a negative outcome from taking a vaccine is sufficient (when compared to the small risk of negative virus outcomes) that there's not really any good reason they should take one...
As a general rule, arguing with swampy is like punching yourself in the face repeatedly - aggravating with no hope of a satisfying outcome. Most of what he has written here is complete bullshit but I just don't care enough to do a point by point takedown. I've already disproved his bizarre contention that covid isn't in the top ten of reasons people are dying. But I will single out one other particularly dangerous point he made, as quoted above. Even if what swampy says here is true, which it obviously isn't, those people should still get vaccinated to achieve herd immunity. If enough people get vaccinated, current thinking seems to be around 75%, then those who can't for medical reasons or because they're anti-vax idiots will still be protected from outbreaks.
It isn't in the UK.

Due to a substantial chunk of America never taking the virus seriously, not to mention the prevalence of various comorbities which are considerably lesser in other western nations - it is in the top 3 in the US.

As I mentioned, herd immunity starts to come in at about ~58% - the more the better. In the UK we already had around 50% in March immune according to recent studies, and around 9% have had Covid-19. So with the vaccine we're there.

The US aren't even close to the UK situation.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

You may want to recheck you math. Covid deaths are spiking in the U.K. I think you'll find it's well into the top ten reasons for death in November.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

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Per-capita deaths are worse for the UK than for the USA.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Femina »

swampy170 wrote: 2 years ago The UK government have done an impeccable job of spreading fear-inducing propaganda. Which has done its job and driven people to follow the rules.
Well I'm American, and in America apparently all telling people they should be afraid of the virus has done is make them double down on stupid behavior.
But it is important to take an objective view! - For the record, where mandated I wear a mask. But I am not happy that my ability to make the decision if it is a sensible and necessary precaution has been taken away - and will be voting accordingly in future.
This is not an objective view. The freedom to be unhappy with a thing and argue about it is demonstrably UNobjective. That's just political crap. FREEDOM is more akin to CHAOS than objectivity. The OBJECTIVE solution to a viral outbreak is for everyone to comply precisely as their countries pandemic playbook informs them to without argument or resistance because that's their 'objective' best chance for survival and national recovery. The ability to make a choice over whether or not you FEEL like compliance and are willing to risk the lives of yourself and others OR NOT based upon your own personal assessment is an emotional response based upon your personal desires and perhaps your degree of knowledge (or lack thereof) concerning the subject, which has no guarantee of standing with what is objectively good for anybody.

That feels a lot like a problem of privilege. No question I believe the human being who CHOOSES to do the right thing of their own free will is measurably more upstanding than someone who has to be forced to do the right thing against their will... but that doesn't mean that when Zombies are banging at the Mall entrance, that what's OBJECTIVELY important is each survivors individual right to CHOOSE not to open the doors and let the zombies in to eat everybody... freedom to choose is perfectly acceptable when the risks you're taking are entirely to yourself. The freedom to take risks with the lives of others on the other hand, is much less clear cut (and is in fact... pretty close to just outright manslaughter in the US if it actually leads to a death). On occasion you just have to set down a mandate, or people begin to choose to take stupid risks with the lives of other people hanging in the balance. Human beings, as a species, have proven themselves too unreliable to simply HOPE they'll all decide to do what is necessary for the survival of the species during a crisis... at least, they've proven this in America.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

:giggle: ^^^^ It's not like that on Star Trek
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Imagineer »

I think the way we all rallied around the immediate common good in this COVID-19 crisis speaks volumes about our ability to rally around the long-term common good to address climate change.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Femina »

tallyho wrote: 2 years ago :giggle: ^^^^ It's not like that on Star Trek
Well... one can hardly blame the world for going to shit when the Star Trek revivals are all about shooting things and how corrupt the Federation is.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by batgirl1969 »

"Heard Immunity" lol....sorry...I don't mean to laugh but sadly I have to when anyone throws out the heard immunity theory with a virus like this...that is Like saying "Hey, if enough people get exposed to Ebola or HIV we'll be safe." nope...NOT with this one...not going to happen anytime soon.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by sugarcoater »

On the plus side, we have brave and certainly not hypocritical leaders guiding the way:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latime ... f_amp=true

Of course, the virus only becomes dangerous for such activities AFTER the closures are put in place; it was clearly safe beforehand.

When the alleged leaders (and politicians are rarely anything close to that, but they do get to make grand statements and virtue-signal) clearly don’t worry about the virus, one can see why so many people begin to have contempt for any recommendations coming from politicians.
Then there’s the need to balance safety with not destroying people’s personal lives by taking away their businesses without compensating them for their loss. But nuances and politics are rarely seen together.
Ignore any virtue-signaling; it's clearly just you.

Ignore any activism; it clearly doesn't exist.

Be very careful!
Don't be indoctrinated!
Ignore your common sense!

Everything is entirely normal and ignore the radical changes to culture.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

Over 2,600 American covid-19 deaths yesterday. And that's before the Thanksgiving spike materializes.

Around the country, doctors and nurses and infectious disease experts are literally begging people to take the pandemic seriously, wear masks, maintain social distance and avoid crowded indoor spaces. Hospitals are reaching capacity in many states and health workers are overwhelmed, exhausted and discouraged. There is going to be a tidal wave of PTSD cases within the medical community as a result of America's singular failure to unite and combat the pandemic.

As this rolling catastrophe continues to worsen, America's president is doing...exactly nothing about it. But he has raised over 170 million dollars, mostly from small donations from regular people, for the stated purpose of combating Biden's bogus election win. The millions of idiots sending him their hard earned money didn't read the fine print. 75% of the donations will be used for the "campaign". So Trump can hold a rally at one of his own properties and have the "campaign" pay him for the space. He can even charge admittance and rip off the idiots a second time. He can pay his personal lawyer 20 grand a day and pocket most of that himself. He can pay his family huge bucks for "campaign" work.

Americans keep dying and Trump keeps raking in big bucks.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Femina »

Bert wrote: 2 years ago Over 2,600 American covid-19 deaths yesterday. And that's before the Thanksgiving spike materializes.

Around the country, doctors and nurses and infectious disease experts are literally begging people to take the pandemic seriously, wear masks, maintain social distance and avoid crowded indoor spaces. Hospitals are reaching capacity in many states and health workers are overwhelmed, exhausted and discouraged. There is going to be a tidal wave of PTSD cases within the medical community as a result of America's singular failure to unite and combat the pandemic.

As this rolling catastrophe continues to worsen, America's president is doing...exactly nothing about it. But he has raised over 170 million dollars, mostly from small donations from regular people, for the stated purpose of combating Biden's bogus election win. The millions of idiots sending him their hard earned money didn't read the fine print. 75% of the donations will be used for the "campaign". So Trump can hold a rally at one of his own properties and have the "campaign" pay him for the space. He can even charge admittance and rip off the idiots a second time. He can pay his personal lawyer 20 grand a day and pocket most of that himself. He can pay his family huge bucks for "campaign" work.

Americans keep dying and Trump keeps raking in big bucks.
Yeah it's truly fucking amazing. Like, you have this stupid image of Trump as the ultimate successful businessman... yet don't believe he can pay a measly 170 million dollars for his own god damn BOGUS legal fees? *deep Breaths* but this isn't a political space I need to remember that...

So I'll focus instead on how Trump hasn't used ANY of that money to assist in the preventative or recovery efforts of the Carona Virus. Corporate continues to take care of corporate while the rest of the world coughs to death.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Dazzle1 »

Femina wrote: 2 years ago
Bert wrote: 2 years ago Over 2,600 American covid-19 deaths yesterday. And that's before the Thanksgiving spike materializes.

Around the country, doctors and nurses and infectious disease experts are literally begging people to take the pandemic seriously, wear masks, maintain social distance and avoid crowded indoor spaces. Hospitals are reaching capacity in many states and health workers are overwhelmed, exhausted and discouraged. There is going to be a tidal wave of PTSD cases within the medical community as a result of America's singular failure to unite and combat the pandemic.

As this rolling catastrophe continues to worsen, America's president is doing...exactly nothing about it. But he has raised over 170 million dollars, mostly from small donations from regular people, for the stated purpose of combating Biden's bogus election win. The millions of idiots sending him their hard earned money didn't read the fine print. 75% of the donations will be used for the "campaign". So Trump can hold a rally at one of his own properties and have the "campaign" pay him for the space. He can even charge admittance and rip off the idiots a second time. He can pay his personal lawyer 20 grand a day and pocket most of that himself. He can pay his family huge bucks for "campaign" work.

Americans keep dying and Trump keeps raking in big bucks.
Yeah it's truly fucking amazing. Like, you have this stupid image of Trump as the ultimate successful businessman... yet don't believe he can pay a measly 170 million dollars for his own god damn BOGUS legal fees? *deep Breaths* but this isn't a political space I need to remember that...

So I'll focus instead on how Trump hasn't used ANY of that money to assist in the preventative or recovery efforts of the Carona Virus. Corporate continues to take care of corporate while the rest of the world coughs to death.
It's actually corporate that will save the planet from Covid while Nancy Pelosi lets people die by not doing a clean bill.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by DrDominator9 »

There's a scintilla of truth in the comment that corporate will save the planet from Covid in that you certainly don't hear the angry railing against "Big Pharma" these days, now that our lives are in their hands with Operation Warp Speed being seemingly so successful.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

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For what it’s worth, who cares if people throw money at Trump or any other politician? It’s their wasted money. As far as people choosing what to do regarding Covid, people have ample data from which to make up their minds as to what they will do. Unfortunately, here in America politicians from both parties have chosen to politicize the disease from early on. As many people have become so entrenched in their respective parties, it doesn’t matter what any politician says. If the politician is from their echo chamber party, s/he will be believed; if the politics is from the other echo chamber party, s/he will be dismissed. At least that’s what I’m seeing, hearing and reading in California.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

sugarcoater wrote: 2 years ago Unfortunately, here in America politicians from both parties have chosen to politicize the disease from early on.
This is bothsideism at its worst. I see one party, the Democrats, advocating listening to doctors and scientists. I see the Republicans from Trump on down ignoring the advice of their own experts. The reason America is so divided, and the reason America is doing so poorly at containing the spread of coronavirus, is that Republicans have politicized the virus.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Femina »

Nah Corporate won't save us. Now big Pharma MIGHT... but don't delude yourself into thinking they're gonna do it for the greater good. They'll expect a huge chunk of change exchanging hands somewhere... most likely from the government, which we'll be paying for in taxes, they won't spend a dime of their own vast resources to do anything more than chase increasing profits like the world economy is one big game of Snake that will somehow keep expanding its borders before they catch up with their tail.

But that's just Pharma... Pepsi Cola, Microsoft, Sony, etc... they aren't going to do shit, just continue to sponge up money for their executives foreign bank accounts and private spaceship construction.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

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I'm going to back out of this conversation. Peace out.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by sugarcoater »

When did we start making up all these new terms that have been incorporated into discussions on social issues ("Bothsideism"?). I'll try one out myself. I see this argument as Demagoguecratism, advocating on behalf of Democrats because one is a Democrat and will not give a Republican perspective a fair shake. The Republicans from Trump on down did not ignore doctors as a whole, though I am quite sure some did. I imagine some Republicans felt stuck having to support Trump because they imagined they might be at the risk of losing their base's support if they didn't.

I'll try to use another new 2020 term. I see AntiTrumpism at play with people never giving Trump any benefit of any decision or act made because they are blinded by their hatred of Trump. (And I write this as no fan of Trump--he is inarticulate and narcissistic and engages in absurd hyperbole all-too-often.) I just think there can be some credit given to an unlikeable person on occasion. But the media has so much AntiTrumpism that they cannot be objective in reporting on him.

To the topic of listening to scientists, that should mean listening to economic scientists as well. Having heard from people who have lost their livelihoods, as well as read about the huge increase in suicide rates, people should consider listening to scientists outside of virologists. There has to be some balance in perspectives. Doctors and virologists would have a clear goal of shutting everything down as they cannot be held responsible for people losing their livelihood or an increase in suicides, whereas they would be held accountable for deaths connected to Covid. If I were a doctor, I would absolutely be extreme in suggesting shutting everything down because then I cannot be taken to task for further deaths. There is no incentive to NOT be extreme in shutting everything down.

Both sides have absolutely politicized the virus. It just happens to have broken down the way it did: one side leaning more towards extreme shut-downs to prevent further spread and the other side leaning more towards allowing businesses to stay open and allowing more freedom.

And lets not forget that the experts haven't been the model of truth and accuracy: "In the early days of the pandemic, the World Health Organization, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and even WIRED warned people against using masks. They wouldn’t protect people against getting the disease, all those organizations said, and supplies looked short for the personal protective equipment that health care workers were going to need when the pandemic got bad."
(https://www.wired.com/story/how-masks-w ... must-have/)

Just trying to respectfully share my perspectives, and I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my previous post Bert.


[/quote]

This is bothsideism at its worst. I see one party, the Democrats, advocating listening to doctors and scientists. I see the Republicans from Trump on down ignoring the advice of their own experts. The reason America is so divided, and the reason America is doing so poorly at containing the spread of coronavirus, is that Republicans have politicized the virus.
[/quote]
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

Don't forget Trump branded the press enemies of the people, with all the historical connotations that go with that phrase and openly encouraging his supporters to be aggressive towards the press.
Coupled with the constant lies and flat out denials of things that he patently did do or did say and the fraught relationship with the press office from day one (when he started his tenure by lying about the size of his inauguration crowd when no one gave a damn about it except him,) its no wonder they would concentrate on what he isn't doing rather than what he may have 'achieved' which isn't much. The Republicans listed over a hundred 'achievements' of his presidency in the run up to the election. Most were him or them simply taking credit for the deeds of others. Him signing off on a law that's been passed by the houses when he has to, isn't an chievement of his but of the senators who pushed the bill for years in many cases. Of the 100 plus deeds they gave him credit for independent fact checkers ascribed 7 to him with a further 10 or so that he had a modest hand in.

I would urge people to watch the various documentaries about him before the presidency. They are free of a political agenda, in many cases made years prior to him even thinking of running for office and they clearly show him for what he has proved to be in office, a repugnant man with serious mental health problems who is perpetually driven to succeed at any cost and when his enterprises fail, as they often did, he just divorces himself from both reality and any blame, which is what we are seeing now. He actually rang a gossip columnist putting on a voice and pretending to be a new Trump press agent called I think 'Barry' and proceeded to tell her how amazing Trump was with women and how supermodels were queuing up to be with him and ITS CLEARLY TRUMP putting on a bad accent. Its both unbelievable and truly pathetic.

Anyway....

2,600 dead in a day... And as mentioned that's before we see the Thanksgiving impact.

A desperate tragedy.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

When words start showing up in print I think using them is fair play. I think it's fair to say "bothsideism" is a particular kind of false equivalency. You say both sides made the virus political. That makes it seem equivalent, that both sides are equally to blame. The truth is, one side is far, far more guilty of making the virus political than the other. Trump needed Republicans to vote in person on election day to make it seem like he was winning when polling results started rolling in. To accomplish that (and to try to get economic numbers looking better, also for his reelection strategy) Trump downplayed the virus. He refused to wear a mask and mocked people who did. He held rallies that became superspreader events. He feuded with Dr. Fauci, a global infectious disease expert. Many Republican governors followed suit, refusing to take action when infection numbers shot upwards.

Compare that with Democrats. What did they do that in any way politicized the virus? They advocated listening to experts. They fought to get monetary aid for people who were affected by closures. That's not politicizing, that's carrying out the government's prime purpose, which is protecting citizens. And keep in mind, I'm Canadian. I've got no skin in the U.S. political debate, I just observe what each party has done and comment on it.

As for listening to economic scientists, many advocated temporary lockdowns on the grounds that ignoring rising infection rates would end up doing worse economic damage in the long run. Congress should have passed further legislation to provide for people who were affected by virus measures, but Republicans wouldn't negotiate.

As for experts not always being right, that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of science. Scientists change their recommendations as evidence accumulates and new things are learned.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by sugarcoater »

I was criticizing the strange increase in new terms being bandied about by the media and various movements. The terms seem trite and at times intended to confuse. Your use of them is certainly fair play. As for "bothsideism" (which is still a spellcheck issue), I would just simply say that two sides of an issue aren't balanced. Or perhaps suggest someone is biased. Isn't that essentially what is being suggested by bothsideism? That someone is being prejudiced towards one side over another?

Nothing you write about Trump is something I dispute. He has annoyed me from before he ran for president. But he will be gone in a few short months, whereas a media that fawns on liberal politicians and has proven itself not to be objective is a concern for a society looking for objective news. I would have hoped the media could have avoided stooping to Trump's level. Their reputation is of consequence, and their product--the dissemination of the news--affects people's views.
As for Trump downplaying the virus, don't forget how Pelosi--the most powerful Democrat--did EXACTLY the same thing! "Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi toured San Francisco's Chinatown Monday to send a message. She said there's no reason tourists or locals should be staying away from the area because of coronavirus concerns."'That’s what we’re trying to do today is to say everything is fine here,' Pelosi said. 'Come because precautions have been taken. The city is on top of the situation.'"
Furthermore, Trump had to deal with being called racist for suggesting what Democrats would soon support. "Chan said his business is losing about $500-$800 a day, or about 70% on average. He believes the fear of the virus is racially motivated." Yet soon after, most people would indeed be afraid of the virus, and racism clearly had nothing to do with that fear.
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/n ... n/2240247/

In looking at numbers connected to Covid, both Republican- and Democrat-led states have experienced various surges in infection rates. And it made sense for California and New York to have initial surges due to population size and density as well as travelers and tourists. No state or country has been overly successful in avoiding the spread and various infection spikes.

Slightly off-topic, isn't it just a little bit convenient timing that Pfizer and other companies suddenly announce a vaccine right after the election? I recall Trump being mocked for his claim of a vaccine being ready "within a matter of weeks" near the end of September. A little over a month later, the vaccine apparently is ready and, according to experts, it will available in early 2021. https://www.cnet.com/how-to/two-vaccine ... t-to-know/
I don't believe there's some massive conspiracy afoot as I am not privy to any inside information, but at the same time this is quite the coincidence. Perhaps it is merely gamesmanship by pharma companies thinking a Democrat president will benefit them more than a Republican president, and therefore withholding the news until after people voted.

As for Coronavirus relief packages, both sides are to blame. Republicans AND Democrats both played the political game. "Pelosi signaled she wants to restart talks and reach a potential agreement after the election, as Covid-19 infections spike around the country and the threat of more restrictions looms," according to CNBC (a left-leaning media outlet). Here's the link to the article I am citing: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/29/coronav ... uchin.html

I think both parties could argue the other side is the reason for stalling, and I think most people will side with their own party trying to do the right thing and the other party doing the wrong thing. But in regard to economic scientists, there is a need to balance the damage to the economy both short- and long-term with the risks involved in keeping businesses open with appropriate measures in place. In California, there was a top-down approach with sweeping generalities and illogical restrictions put in place. And then there was the odd concept of "essential businesses" versus "nonessential businesses".

To your comment about science changing, that is quite obvious. And with a new virus, that is all-the-more clearly a reminder of that point.
[A side issue is that scientists suggesting masks did not work is the opposite of what was true. Furthermore, that story was allowed to persist for a time because there was a concern people would stockpile masks. I can understand that concern, but when an "untruth" is given by those in charge of the citizens' health, it can make it difficult for some to trust that same source later on.]
As we agree that science is changing, perhaps we can agree that flexibility is needed in coming up with strategies and solutions to the pandemic. Perhaps healthier people can conduct business using precautions while those more susceptible can be looked after properly. For all the science focused on the virus, there does not seem to be much focus on the effects of the confiscated freedoms. Perhaps we will find that the government did the right thing. Or perhaps not. But as we agree on the flexibility of science, I hope we can agree on a healthy debate on the proper course of action. Thank you for taking the time to engage me in discussion Bert.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

"Quite the coincidence '?

Science doesn't work like that. It takes as long as it takes, there's no coincidence in an event happening. It happens when it happens.
With 2600 dead per day and rising any delay is adding thousands to the death toll. Perhaps 100,000 a month globally. Do you seriously think that of the 100s perhaps 1000s of people involved in developing multiple vaccines not one of them would come forward with evidence and blow the whistle given such a delay is putting their own families and friends at risk and killing thousands?
It's beyond absurd.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

sugarcoater wrote: 2 years ago "'That’s what we’re trying to do today is to say everything is fine here,' Pelosi said. 'Come because precautions have been taken. The city is on top of the situation.'"
That was last February. Trump and other Republicans are ignoring the virus now. The CDC warned today that there could be 450,000 American deaths by this coming February.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by bushwackerbob »

A pox on all of those houses, whether they be the oval office which totally screwed up the handling of this thing, the governors of some of these states who sent seniors to their deaths in retirement homes, and many of these hypocritical political leaders who assigned new lockdown measures and procedures and then they themselves violate those very same measures. Here in the U.S, we seem to have a new example of this hypocrisy in action every single day now.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Imagineer »

Bothsidesism is a term because a specific fallacious rhetorical technique became so common in public discourse as to need a term.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Femina »

Hey now... Do I need to add Bothsidism to my Smudged words list?
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

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Splunge.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

In the U. K., Matt Hancock who is laughingly referred to as our health secretary has declared that the only way we were able to approve the Pfizer vaccine so quickly is because of Brexit. Even Boris Johnson, twice sacked from different jobs for lying, found legally to have lied to the Queen, yes THAT Boris Johnson has distanced himself from that howler.
The idea that a German company making vaccines in Belgium was able to be approved quickly by us when we are still governed by EU rules until 31st December is somehow down to Brexit is farcical, but it just shows the level of lies and deceit this government has dropped to.

By being the first to approve it in the world we are hailing it as some great British achievement that somehow wipes out the 9 months of constant Covid fuck ups by this government that have left 50,000 dead like a magic wand.

This is the time we are in, guys and girls - spout any old crap just be convincing when you say it.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Bert »

sugarcoater wrote: 2 years ago But as we agree on the flexibility of science, I hope we can agree on a healthy debate on the proper course of action. Thank you for taking the time to engage me in discussion Bert.
Here too, science is busy refining what those actions should be. As more data comes in it is becoming clear how covid transmits itself. The main culprit is being indoors for an extended period with an infected person. Activities that involve heavy breathing are the worst. Gyms, churches (singing), bars (loud music to shout over), clubs (loud music plus dancing), political rallies (shouting "lock her up" shoulder to shoulder without masks), maskless parties with no social distancing, these situations create superspreader events. But here's the thing, we learn as we go and then we make recommendations based on what we learn. But if half a country refuses to abide by those recommendations, whether out of bizarre political affiliation, suspicion or just stupidity, people keep dying.

2,885 Americans died of covid yesterday. They died alone, away from their family and friends, unable to breathe. Exhausted healthcare workers did everything they could but it wasn't enough. Each death affects many people. This is a catastrophe on a massive scale and it's getting worse. What is the nation's leader doing about it? Absolutely nothing. Trump's continuing inaction sets an example. Many people who believe in him will also ignore the virus. That will facilitate its spread further.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Imagineer »

I find the technique of a 10pm curfew interesting. To me it suggests that a significant continued cause of spread is people trying to get laid -- parties and late night bar-hoppers.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

Imagineer wrote: 2 years ago I find the technique of a 10pm curfew interesting. To me it suggests that a significant continued cause of spread is people trying to get laid -- parties and late night bar-hoppers.
Well weren't you, when you were young? :hmmm:
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

Bert wrote: 2 years ago What is the nation's leader doing about it? Absolutely nothing.
Not true. He's playing golf AND tweeting lies. That's almost like multi - tasking.

Everybody knows golf is the natural enemy of deadly global pandemics.

That's why they keep golf courses open.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by tallyho »

More died in US yesterday than have died in Wales since the outbreak began (2763)
We have a population of 3 million so our loses are in line proportionately with US, but the difference is most of our kinsmen died in first 3 months when nobody knew what was happening, whereas tragically yours are rising daily. We had 24 deaths in last 24 hrs, (10 in my home town) Each is a tragedy but the infection rate is dropping.

I hope you guys can turn the corner soon
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Femina »

Imagineer wrote: 2 years ago I find the technique of a 10pm curfew interesting. To me it suggests that a significant continued cause of spread is people trying to get laid -- parties and late night bar-hoppers.
Well *scoffs* We don't... You don't... People are... *double scoff* I don't know if this is news?
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Dazzle1 »

Bert wrote: 2 years ago When words start showing up in print I think using them is fair play. I think it's fair to say "bothsideism" is a particular kind of false equivalency. You say both sides made the virus political. That makes it seem equivalent, that both sides are equally to blame. The truth is, one side is far, far more guilty of making the virus political than the other. Trump needed Republicans to vote in person on election day to make it seem like he was winning when polling results started rolling in. To accomplish that (and to try to get economic numbers looking better, also for his reelection strategy) Trump downplayed the virus. He refused to wear a mask and mocked people who did. He held rallies that became superspreader events. He feuded with Dr. Fauci, a global infectious disease expert. Many Republican governors followed suit, refusing to take action when infection numbers shot upwards.

Compare that with Democrats. What did they do that in any way politicized the virus? They advocated listening to experts. They fought to get monetary aid for people who were affected by closures. That's not politicizing, that's carrying out the government's prime purpose, which is protecting citizens. And keep in mind, I'm Canadian. I've got no skin in the U.S. political debate, I just observe what each party has done and comment on it.

As for listening to economic scientists, many advocated temporary lockdowns on the grounds that ignoring rising infection rates would end up doing worse economic damage in the long run. Congress should have passed further legislation to provide for people who were affected by virus measures, but Republicans wouldn't negotiate.

As for experts not always being right, that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of science. Scientists change their recommendations as evidence accumulates and new things are learned.
Dems refused to pass a stand alone bill. They wanted bailout to the Dem cities to help with their pensions

Second they have been the most hypocritical in two standards. They can travel and get their hair down or eat at restaurants, but no one else can.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by Femina »

Dazzle1 wrote: 2 years ago Second they have been the most hypocritical in two standards. They can travel and get their hair down or eat at restaurants, but no one else can.
Can you really say this with a straight face when Donald Trump acts as a counterargument simply by nature of existing? The guy is the biggest hypocritical bullshit con artist who ever lived. He caught Carona.... and still wont do a thing about it. He's probably out golfing RIGHT NOW...
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by bushwackerbob »

I really do appreciate the concern and particular interest among the Brits and our good neighbors to the north in regards to America's handling of this pandemic. I do hope you folks in the UK and Canada have a better handle on this thing than we do and are able to defeat this virus to the extent that we can all go back to living normal lives. Stay healthy and safe everybody.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by sugarcoater »

@ tallyho

It's not the science "working like that" with which I disagree. It's the timing of the release of information. It just is quite a coincidence. Just as this other aspect of timing with Pfizer stock.



Too often values are ascribed to people--positively and negatively--without any knowledge of the people. Just in reading this thread I see people ascribing intent to Trump without any way of actually knowing his agenda. For all I know, his agenda may be more malicious or more thoughtful than assumed here. But none of us can actually know. We extend our prejudiced views of the man to make our own conclusions. To try to swank up my post, I'll steal a line from Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar":
"Indeed, it is a strange-disposèd time. But men may construe things after their fashion, / Clean from the purpose of the things themselves."
In reading several comments, my impression is many here hate Trump so much that they might not be able to give him credit for a single positive action. And if that's the case, then I have to wonder if those people can ever be objective. And hey, I get it. When I really can't stand a person, I have also have a hard time being objective and acknowledging a positive act on their part. But when it comes to politics, objectivity is critical in an honest discussion. And to reiterate--because in other discussions I've had people are intolerant to any views that seem to come from a Trump supporter--I am not a Trump supporter but I have supported a few of his actions over the four years he served as president. I did the same for Obama during his eight years.


@ Bert

"Trump's continuing inaction sets an example." I disagree to some extent. Trump has not been inactive, he just has not done enough to suit some people's expectations. I did not think attending his rallies was a good idea, but I also didn't think the same sort of close gatherings for the various protests and the celebration of Biden's victories were good ideas. Not sure how many people take their queues for handling a pandemic from Trump alone. That said, I agree that he might have done more. I wonder to what extent the feud between Republicans and Democrats caused politicians on both sides to fall into the two camps of Covid: the Republicans going with freedom, economic concern and a lack of lockdowns; the Democrats going with restrictions, physical health concerns and quarantines. Had there been less of a feud, maybe both sides would have worked on concert with one another. The current state of affairs is the result of the polarization of the two parties, as I see it.


@ Imagineer

As for the reference to the curfew, I would have encouraged politicians to give the data that illustrates the need for the curfew. Forcing people to condense their time outside their homes seems like a bad idea--more people have to go out at the same time due to the lack of total hours now. And not everyone works the typical 9-5 shift. People are more inclined to abide by regulations when given logical data.

@ Femina

"Can you really say this with a straight face when Donald Trump acts as a counterargument simply by nature of existing?"

I think we can call out the hypocrisy of the left because the media has been non-stop calling out the hypocrisy of the right while ignoring the left. The media has been intent on having Biden elected. The pathetic softball questions gently tossed at Biden compared to the caustic questions hurled at Trump would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic and insidious. The media needs to be above the fray--it must be objective in order to avoid people living in their respective echo chambers for news coverage. The problem is that so much money is made and viewership is increased when news outlets pander to their base. So calling out the Democrats for their hypocrisy is just as important as calling out the Republicans for theirs. Sadly, the former seldom occurs whereas the latter is front page news.


Side note: it's somewhat funny to see this thread dominating over all others for a super heroine forum site. Then again, it makes sense in that we enjoy discussing subjects that interest us.
And I think all of you who read and responded to my posts without being rude or resorting to insults. I hope I am not doing that either in my comments as I try to present my perspective and politely disagree with some point.
Last edited by sugarcoater 2 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Post by sugarcoater »

And if I may add to my post and share the sentiments already mentioned, I wish you all the best of health and may you be able to continue working despite the various limitations in place. May 2021 bring you good health and good spirits.
Ignore any virtue-signaling; it's clearly just you.

Ignore any activism; it clearly doesn't exist.

Be very careful!
Don't be indoctrinated!
Ignore your common sense!

Everything is entirely normal and ignore the radical changes to culture.
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