Watchmen HBO (2019)

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shevek
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So what you probably thought was going to be some kind of adaptation of the Watchmen comic (for Zack Snyder had already made a good movie not so long ago) is actually a 'sequel' of sorts to the classic graphic novel, with events that happen 34 years later. Adrian Veidt is an old man, etc.

It looks like they might be treading some of the same Trump Derangement ground that the Sons of Liberty do in the Supergirl TV show
(except the alt-right militia in this case is the Sons of Rorschach). But then again with performances by the likes of Don Johnson, Regina King, Louis Gossett Jr. and Jeremy Irons, things could still get interesting.

Does this look promising at all to anyone?

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It looks interesting. The movie was a disastrous misinterpretation so I'm hoping the series is created with a greater sense of what the comic was supposed to be about.

It's kind of a blank slate though since it's a sequel, although I suppose we'll have to see.

Looking forward to seeing what they do for heroes in it too.
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I just hope this show has an incarnation of the Silk Spectre
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Bert

shevek wrote:
4 years ago
It looks like they might be treading some of the same Trump Derangement ground...
Trump derangement ground? Your president has floated the idea of adding two years to his term because of time wasted by the Meuller report, a report that motivated over 600 former federal prosecutors to say the evidence warranted an indictment. He is defying congressional subpoenas, has co-opted the Justice Department with his new poodle William Barr and is suing a bank to prevent a lawful request for records. He is rushing a carrier group to waters near Iran and ratcheting up warlike rhetoric, one year after unilaterally reneging on an agreement that was keeping Iran's nuclear ambitions in check. He was elected on the basis of being a hugely successful businessman, but the NYT revealed yesterday that he was the single biggest money loser in America among individual taxpayers for years and lost 1.17 billion over 10 years.

The only derangement here is with people who refuse to believe that Trump will do anything to keep his gold-plated house of cards standing. I'm done with sitting back and letting snide political putdowns go unanswered. From now on when I see provocations like this I'm coming out swinging.
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Bert wrote:
4 years ago
shevek wrote:
4 years ago
It looks like they might be treading some of the same Trump Derangement ground...
Trump derangement ground? Your president has floated the idea of adding two years to his term because of time wasted by the Meuller report, a report that motivated over 600 former federal prosecutors to say the evidence warranted an indictment. He is defying congressional subpoenas, has co-opted the Justice Department with his new poodle William Barr and is suing a bank to prevent a lawful request for records. He is rushing a carrier group to waters near Iran and ratcheting up warlike rhetoric, one year after unilaterally reneging on an agreement that was keeping Iran's nuclear ambitions in check. He was elected on the basis of being a hugely successful businessman, but the NYT revealed yesterday that he was the single biggest money loser in America among individual taxpayers for years and lost 1.17 billion over 10 years.

The only derangement here is with people who refuse to believe that Trump will do anything to keep his gold-plated house of cards standing. I'm done with sitting back and letting snide political putdowns go unanswered. From now on when I see provocations like this I'm coming out swinging.
Swinging? more like repeating the dribble from MSNBC!

Personally, I like what Trump is doing (wish he would get off of social media thou). The economy has never been better, after we were told by the previous administration that this (economic growth) is as good as it gets (it was the worst 'recovery' in modern era).

BTW, this President follows and upholds the constitution, unlike the previous administration.
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Bert wrote:
4 years ago
shevek wrote:
4 years ago
It looks like they might be treading some of the same Trump Derangement ground...
Trump derangement ground? Your president.... From now on when I see provocations like this I'm coming out swinging.
Bert, I didn't vote for Trump, nor would I.
So swing all you like, but just make sure it's at the right target. :)

Let's wait and see what this series turns out to be. Thanks!
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Anyway it's really got little to do with Trump. Those guys are almost certainly people who read Rorschach's journal and know what Ozymandias did, and don't like it. They will almost certainlly throw in some time relevant politics I'm sure just to be 'relevant' with the decade.... but I don't expect any of that to take precedence over the cause/effect. Nothing here should weigh more heavily on this series (Sequel that it appears to be) than the originating source material.
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That's the hope, Femina.

Alan Moore wrote a sophisticated if pessimistic take on the superhero genre which featured characters/archetypes of all stripes - he probably had a specific political take of his own (I think he's an anarchist, basically) but he didn't let one point of view overwhelm his approach. Case in point - he created Rorschach as a pretty horrible person (every character in the story was pretty much flawed one way or another) but Rorschach for many people wound up to be the one with some of the most admired traits, long-term. Moore wasn't thrilled with that result, but that's what he brought into the world, and back then it was still fine to separate the art from the artist.

Here's a recent piece which argues that although Nite Owl is the protagonist, Rorschach is actually the hero and Ozymandias is the anti-hero.



But if this new show, by showing the fanaticism that Rorschach has inspired in a new generation, flips that perception on its head and makes him a catalyst for right-wing extremism, the situation could get a bit one-sided, because who, exactly, is left to be the hero in such a situation?

My guess is that there will be some new character to fill that role, but will such a character be presented as truly complex, in the manner of the original comic, or will they be some kind of cookie-cutter paragon of predictability? From what I can see, that role might be filled by Regina King's character "Angela Abar", a black woman in a grey hood and a face mask. Will her role be written as flawed and with depth?

If they do the same thing with this new show - set 34 years later in new creative territory built on the original material - that Moore did in the 80s, then sure, it will be a worthwhile effort all the way through. However, given the kind of approach TV shows are usually taking nowadays with the superhero genre, I'm not so sure they won't try to drench it with Current Year dogma. We can only wait to see what happens.

I'm guessing there won't be another incarnation of the Silk Spectre, but we can still hope that Laurie and Dan eventually had a daughter who took up that mantle for the third generation. That would be a really inspiring moment to see revealed in the series if it happens - it would carry a lot of emotional weight for me.
Bert

shevek wrote:
4 years ago
Bert, I didn't vote for Trump, nor would I.
So swing all you like, but just make sure it's at the right target. :)

Let's wait and see what this series turns out to be. Thanks!
I'm not American, so he's your president, not mine. I don't give a crap who you vote for, but I am sick of your constant political putdowns and I'm done with letting it slide. If you keep making provocative statements like mocking people with the "Trump Derangement Syndrome" label, expect pushback.
Bert

ksire_99 wrote:
4 years ago
Swinging? more like repeating the dribble from MSNBC!

Personally, I like what Trump is doing (wish he would get off of social media thou). The economy has never been better, after we were told by the previous administration that this (economic growth) is as good as it gets (it was the worst 'recovery' in modern era).

BTW, this President follows and upholds the constitution, unlike the previous administration.
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_99660598_3-unempl-nc.png (10.82 KiB) Viewed 4428 times
united-states-gdp.png
united-states-gdp.png (10.49 KiB) Viewed 4428 times
As anyone can clearly see from the charts, Unemployment and GDP trends have simply continued from Obama to Trump. Also, note that whenever an economic indicator shows any sort of downturn, Trump quickly blames someone else. When the news is good, Trump claims it's all his doing.

As for Trump and the constitution, your statement is absurd. Raise your hand if you believe Donald Trump has ever even read the constitution front to back. Trump's AG is about to be declared in contempt of congress. Trump is refusing subpoenas left, right and center, is almost certainly in violation of the emoluments clause, and over 600 former federal prosecutors say he should be indicted for obstruction of justice. Trump is the worst enemy the constitution ever had.
Bert

I know, I know, leave politics alone. Well, tell that to people who toss out "Trump Derangement Syndrome" in their posts. I've mostly stayed out of it. No more. From now on when someone provokes, I'll be responding. If you don't want to see it, ban me or keep a lid on the provocations.
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Fair enough - I had no idea that using two little words as a turn of phrase, mostly meant in jest, would trigger such a vociferous response, and I'll try not to evoke such vehemence again. But I do think you'll have a hard time discussing Watchmen without mentioning politics at all. I've got nothing more to add until such time as we see what the actual show has to offer.
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Lets keep posts about the show from now on please guys
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Actually I do have something to add. Thanks to a certain comics-oriented website, I saw the Twitter post where Regina King unveiled the look of her character. Too bad we don't get to see the whole costume, but I'm going to guess it's not particularly revealing. It reminds me a little of the basic hoodie attire that Anissa Pierce (otherwise known as Thunder) wore in the Black Lightning show when she was robbing the drug gangs of their money to give it to the church or clinic. It has more of a vigilante look to it than outright superheroic. But hopefully we'll catch more glimpses soon: unless there's a third-generation Silk Spectre, King's character might be the main heroine in the story.

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It looks interesting! I hope it's faster paced than the movie!!
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The bad thing about it being on HBO is it won't be binge-watchable for ages.

Good thing is it might last a reasonable number of seasons.
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I DVR ed the first episode of the Watchmen and have yet to watch it. I have never seen the comic and know next to nothing about the series except that the great J.J Abrams is involved. One question for you Watchmen aficionados. Do I need to be well versed in the history of the show to understand and enjoy the episodes?
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I watched it. It was okay. Kinda reminded me a little of a Coen Brothers movie - only more confusing and not as interesting. But it's very weird.
As for whether you need to be well-versed in the lore, you should probably at least watch the movie. There is a group in the movie that wears Rorschach masks. And it does rain squid at one point. If you haven't at least seen the movie, you will have NO idea why. Having said that, I've read the graphic novel and seen the movie, and I only have the slightest inkling why. :-P

As for Superheroines, I think we are all going to be disappointed. The only female main character in the show is Regina King. Not a bad-looking woman, but not exactly a sex symbol. She kicks ass, but she wears several layers of heavy clothing throughout the episode.

There are very few women in the cast. If you look on IMDB, Regina King is listed first. And you have to go all the way down to #8 before you even encounter another woman.
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bushwackerbob wrote:
4 years ago
I DVR ed the first episode of the Watchmen and have yet to watch it. I have never seen the comic and know next to nothing about the series except that the great J.J Abrams is involved. One question for you Watchmen aficionados. Do I need to be well versed in the history of the show to understand and enjoy the episodes?
Apparently you don't, but you might want to read up a bit because the whole 'Psychic squid kills millions of people in New York' thing is not insignificant to the lore as I understand it.
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TIEnTEEZ wrote:
4 years ago
I watched it. It was okay. Kinda reminded me a little of a Coen Brothers movie - only more confusing and not as interesting. But it's very weird.
As for whether you need to be well-versed in the lore, you should probably at least watch the movie. There is a group in the movie that wears Rorschach masks. And it does rain squid at one point. If you haven't at least seen the movie, you will have NO idea why. Having said that, I've read the graphic novel and seen the movie, and I only have the slightest inkling why. :-P

As for Superheroines, I think we are all going to be disappointed. The only female main character in the show is Regina King. Not a bad-looking woman, but not exactly a sex symbol. She kicks ass, but she wears several layers of heavy clothing throughout the episode.

There are very few women in the cast. If you look on IMDB, Regina King is listed first. And you have to go all the way down to #8 before you even encounter another woman.
The movie makes a critical change to the end of the story, and changes a lot of the relationships and the general power levels of the heroes (they are more like actual superheroes in the movie, they're not really in the comic). Might be better off reading a synopsis of the comics than watching the movie.
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I watched this a few nights ago and I agree there was a sort of Coen Brothers / Tarrentino feel to the whole thing. Ive not seen the movie and I have never been into comics so I was coming in cold watching this one.

So, I get the impression we have some sort of alternate universe thing going on for a start. I enjoyed the style even though it was a bit of a setback to try and come to terms with this alternative reality. I might have found it easier if the intro had a little exposition about the world and why it is different to what we have now.There is an odd mix of technologies in the story and for some reason the police are semi-driven into the shadows. Officers have their faces covered and detective grades wear a mask of their choosing. In terms of heroes I dont think they are powered in any way but Sister Knight seems to be particularly kick ass.



SPOILER
Spoiler
I was fascinated by the wrap around of the first episode, seemingly closing with one of the characters we opened on. I did wonder whether or not if that moment was also a foreshadowing of something. In the silent movie the townsfolk want to lynch the evil white sheriff and of course Don Johnson's character gets hanged. I was wondering if that meant something dark about him will slowly begin to get uncovered later.
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Some SPOILERS in this reply, fair warning. Edit: I'm going to use the spoiler tab to hide spoilers from the show but NOT the comic book or movie. If you're worried about spoilers of 40 year old story vaguely revamped a decade ago and then came to this topic you've no one to blame but yourself.

Sheriff seems to be possibly filling the 'Comedian' role here I.E. the plot point that launches the actual plot.
Spoiler
The blood splattering onto his badge at the end particularly mirrors the blood spattering onto the Comedians Smiley face pin from the comic/movie... albeit lacking the same oomph and style...
it I have one SERIOUS complaint about the show so far, its that it FEELS less like the Watchmen and more like, well, a TV show set in some alternate universe where lots of people wear masks.

JUST watching the movie wouldn't be a very good start point. The show appears to be a sequel to the COMIC not the film, and while the film stays true to the conceptual philosophical ideas of the comic book enough to be acceptably faithful... it changes a lot of the nitty gritty details about the characters and events particularly near the end where the stuff that'd more lastingly impact the world occur. You're going to need to be aware that the big bomb framing Dr Manhattan at the end of the film was actually a FAKED interdenominational squid psychic bomb instead (Which now that I write it out actually sounds stupider than I think a lot of the purists realize... the comic may be more beloved and paces better in its natural story element than the movie is able to do but a fake Cthulu attack is a pretty extravagant plot device from the worlds self styled most intelligent human being... gotta figure there were more realistically feasible options... you know like framing someone for launching a nuke or something.)

Should note, HBO was asking people not to review this series (as a courtesy not a mandate) until they'd seen through the first six episodes or so....... so as of this moment it may be fair to say we probably still don't quite know what this show is about or where its actually going, even the Watchmen comic book is a slow burn. It SEEMS to be leaning into racial tensions in an alternate universe angle at this point... but that honestly seems like it'd be a little simplistic for something waving the Watchmen's banner so I wonder that the racial aspect might be simply one angle of a larger whole or even possibly a misdirect since Rorschach's deal and even his whole thing with the journal wasn't really about race like... AT ALL. It wouldn't really feel appropriate for this whole Rorschach movement to JUST be a white supremacist thing.... but then again we are living in times where some degree of fear concerning white supremacy is taking a little bit of root and that might be bleeding hard into this show... I'm not personally sure how I'd feel about that at this juncture. I'll see where they take it, but as its WATCHMEN I doubt they'll take it anywhere optimistic... and I'm slowly coming to feel like the overall tendency to only showcase pessimistic 'this is how it is!' overviews of race interaction may be becoming over saturated... we could use some optimism here, it wouldn't kill some shows to really showcase some interracial harmony and hypothesize over what that'd look like and encourage that sort of behavior in younger minds instead of just drowning us in stuff about KKK clansmen murdering people and dropping undertones of 'theres noooo hope!' we'll be this foooooreeeevveeeer!'

...

...

...

Add to that that I have next to no faith in the shows writer... I mean... Damon Lindelof couldn't write a decent conclusion to a mystery story if he was trapped in a prison and his only escape was to write a satisfying conclusion to his own mystery stories. I fully expect this one to peter out just like Lost and Prometheus... but theres some hope that he's not writing a mystery at all, in which case it might turn out okay.
Last edited by Femina 4 years ago, edited 2 times in total.
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Femina wrote:
4 years ago
Some SPOILERS in this reply, fair warning.

Sheriff seems to be possibly filling the 'Comedian' role here I.E. the plot point that launches the actual plot. The blood splattering onto his badge at the end particularly mirrors the blood spattering onto the Comedians Smiley face pin from the comic/movie... albeit lacking the same oomph and style... it I have one SERIOUS complaint about the show so far, its that it FEELS less like the Watchmen and more like, well, a TV show set in some alternate universe where lots of people wear masks.

JUST watching the movie wouldn't be a very good start point. The show appears to be a sequel to the COMIC not the film, and while the film stays true to the conceptual philosophical ideas of the comic book enough to be acceptably faithful... it changes a lot of the nitty gritty details about the characters and events particularly near the end where the stuff that'd more lastingly impact the world occur. You're not really going to understand raining squids, for instance, if you've just seen the movie.

Should note, HBO was asking people not to review this series (as a courtesy not a mandate) until they'd seen through the first six episodes or so....... so as of this moment it may be fair to say we probably still don't quite know what this show is about or where its actually going, even the Watchmen comic book is a slow burn. It SEEMS to be about racial tensions in an alternate universe at this point... but that honestly seems like it'd be a little simplistic for something waving the Watchmen's banner so I wonder that the racial aspect might be simply one angle of a larger whole or even possibly a misdirect since Rorschach's deal and even his whole thing with the journal wasn't really about race like... AT ALL. It wouldn't really feel appropriate for this whole Rorschach movement to JUST be a white supremacist thing.... but then again we are living in times where some degree of fear concerning white supremacy is taking a little bit of root and that might be bleeding hard into this show... I'm not personally sure how I'd feel about that at this juncture. I'll see where they take it, but as its WATCHMEN I doubt they'll take it anywhere optimistic... and I'm slowly coming to feel like the overall tendency to only showcase pessimistic 'this is how it is!' overviews of racism may be becoming oversaturated... we could use some optimism here, it wouldn't kill some shows to really showcase some interracial harmony and hypothesize over what that'd look like and encourage that sort of behavior in younger minds instead of just drowning us in stuff about KKK clansmen murdering people and dropping undertones of 'theres noooo hope!' we'll be this foooooreeeevveeeer!'

...

...

...

Add to that that I have next to no faith in the shows writer... I mean... Damon Lindelof couldn't write a decent conclusion to a mystery story if he was trapped in a prison and his only escape was to write a satisfying conclusion to his own mystery stories. I fully expect this one to peter out just like Lost and Prometheus... but theres some hope that he's not writing a mystery at all, in which case it might turn out okay.
Very interesting stuff. It's been a long time since I read the comic or saw the movie. I was kinda thinking that they took the squid scene out of the movie, but I wasn't sure. So yeah, I think you are right that this show is following-up to the comic and not the movie. Which is a good thing, since the movie was so meh.

I didn't know that about them asking people not to review it. But I think I can already see why. I can't really say I have a good sense of whether the show is good or bad from one episode. It's very clear to me that nothing is at all clear to me at this point. I am very aware that this is just the beginning of the story and that I really have no idea what's going on, so I can't really judge anything, yet.

So far, the cops are being presented as the good guys, but I feel like there are some hints that the truth may be more complicated than that.
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Femina wrote:
4 years ago
Some SPOILERS in this reply, fair warning.
Are there? Well here's a crazy idea...
Spoiler
USE THE DAMN SPOILER BUTTON!!!
It's there for a reason, and this reason is IT!

Its the little eye with a line thru it beside 'screenplay' in full edit mode.

Fill your boots!
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Forgive me Herr Moderator - but, I just noticed now, the spoiler button / tag's didnt hide part of my comment once I posted it. It's visible to me. Is it the same for everyone, if so, it appears to be kerbroken!

Spoiler
This part is between spoiler tags
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Oh cocketty balls
You know whats happened?
The rubber seal has perished on it thru lack of use.
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Femina wrote:
4 years ago
Some SPOILERS in this reply, fair warning. Edit: I'm going to use the spoiler tab to hide spoilers from the show but NOT the comic book or movie. If you're worried about spoilers of 40 year old story vaguely revamped a decade ago and then came to this topic you've no one to blame but yourself.

Sheriff seems to be possibly filling the 'Comedian' role here I.E. the plot point that launches the actual plot.
Spoiler
The blood splattering onto his badge at the end particularly mirrors the blood spattering onto the Comedians Smiley face pin from the comic/movie... albeit lacking the same oomph and style...
it I have one SERIOUS complaint about the show so far, its that it FEELS less like the Watchmen and more like, well, a TV show set in some alternate universe where lots of people wear masks.

JUST watching the movie wouldn't be a very good start point. The show appears to be a sequel to the COMIC not the film, and while the film stays true to the conceptual philosophical ideas of the comic book enough to be acceptably faithful... it changes a lot of the nitty gritty details about the characters and events particularly near the end where the stuff that'd more lastingly impact the world occur. You're going to need to be aware that the big bomb framing Dr Manhattan at the end of the film was actually a FAKED interdenominational squid psychic bomb instead (Which now that I write it out actually sounds stupider than I think a lot of the purists realize... the comic may be more beloved and paces better in its natural story element than the movie is able to do but a fake Cthulu attack is a pretty extravagant plot device from the worlds self styled most intelligent human being... gotta figure there were more realistically feasible options... you know like framing someone for launching a nuke or something.)

Should note, HBO was asking people not to review this series (as a courtesy not a mandate) until they'd seen through the first six episodes or so....... so as of this moment it may be fair to say we probably still don't quite know what this show is about or where its actually going, even the Watchmen comic book is a slow burn. It SEEMS to be leaning into racial tensions in an alternate universe angle at this point... but that honestly seems like it'd be a little simplistic for something waving the Watchmen's banner so I wonder that the racial aspect might be simply one angle of a larger whole or even possibly a misdirect since Rorschach's deal and even his whole thing with the journal wasn't really about race like... AT ALL. It wouldn't really feel appropriate for this whole Rorschach movement to JUST be a white supremacist thing.... but then again we are living in times where some degree of fear concerning white supremacy is taking a little bit of root and that might be bleeding hard into this show... I'm not personally sure how I'd feel about that at this juncture. I'll see where they take it, but as its WATCHMEN I doubt they'll take it anywhere optimistic... and I'm slowly coming to feel like the overall tendency to only showcase pessimistic 'this is how it is!' overviews of race interaction may be becoming over saturated... we could use some optimism here, it wouldn't kill some shows to really showcase some interracial harmony and hypothesize over what that'd look like and encourage that sort of behavior in younger minds instead of just drowning us in stuff about KKK clansmen murdering people and dropping undertones of 'theres noooo hope!' we'll be this foooooreeeevveeeer!'

...

...

...

Add to that that I have next to no faith in the shows writer... I mean... Damon Lindelof couldn't write a decent conclusion to a mystery story if he was trapped in a prison and his only escape was to write a satisfying conclusion to his own mystery stories. I fully expect this one to peter out just like Lost and Prometheus... but theres some hope that he's not writing a mystery at all, in which case it might turn out okay.
Damon Lindelöf was the creative force behind HBO's the Leftovers which was quite good. There was clearly a lot to complain about regarding Lost, them not having a clearly coherent direction at times and going off the rails at others, and don't get me started about the ending. I do think there is something to be said for trying to swing for the fences, Lost was an ambitious project that got more convoluted over time, but I admired the effort that went into making that show. There was nothing else truly like it on broadcast television. To be sure there were times where you went "what the f are they doing to this show? There were also times when the show was truly awesome and spellbinding as well. Let's also keep in mind that everybody thought at the beginning of the series that J.J Abrams would be more involved until he got the gig for the Mission Impossible and left the Lindelöf and crew at the helm of his first series, untested and unproven track record and all. I am sure he learned a lot from his first undertaking on Lost, a lot of lessons learned in what to do as a showrunner as well as the pitfalls and mistakes that were made as well. Sorry, I did not mean to derail the topic, it's just that a lot of the criticism leveled at him I feel are well deserved but I feel he deserves some praise as well.
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Why is this thread exploding? I'm getting all kinds of visual weirdness in just this particular thread. I mean that as in, the coding of this page seems to be mucked up or something, not that I'm psychologically scarred or anything xD.

Bushwhacker, sorrry for not quoting you properly right here. The format or coding in this particular topic room is bugging out on me.
Damon Lindelöf was the creative force behind HBO's the Leftovers which was quite good. There was clearly a lot to complain about regarding Lost, them not having a clearly coherent direction at times and going off the rails at others, and don't get me started about the ending. I do think there is something to be said for trying to swing for the fences, Lost was an ambitious project that got more convoluted over time, but I admired the effort that went into making that show. There was nothing else truly like it on broadcast television. To be sure there were times where you went "what the f are they doing to this show? There were also times when the show was truly awesome and spellbinding as well. Let's also keep in mind that everybody thought at the beginning of the series that J.J Abrams would be more involved until he got the gig for the Mission Impossible and left the Lindelöf and crew at the helm of his first series, untested and unproven track record and all. I am sure he learned a lot from his first undertaking on Lost, a lot of lessons learned in what to do as a showrunner as well as the pitfalls and mistakes that were made as well. Sorry, I did not mean to derail the topic, it's just that a lot of the criticism leveled at him I feel are well deserved but I feel he deserves some praise as well.
I don't classify the Leftovers as a mystery. While it does have a vague 'whodunit' with all the people who bounced, it was always painted more as a show dealing with the fallout of an unexplainable tragedy (Which a few years later we all retroactively discovered was actually the fault of Thanos and his infinity gauntlet, but who knew? xD). While it was a suedo-mystery, no aspect of the series made a big deal that the answers to that 'mystery' mattered to the story that was being told... which is why if the Watchmen isn't going to try to be a mystery show I think Damon might do something solid... just if he can't control the itch and starts spastically dropping mysteries at a fever pace I A) Won't expect all of them will be explained and B) Those that are explained will be explained poorly. Guy can be deep when he wants to be... but he couldn't write his way out of a paper mystery bag.
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Ok, I don't know the Watchmen comics (that may be a good thing? - for watching the show), I only know the movie, which I really like (especially for Silk "LatexHotty" Spectre, the intro, the setting and some of the other characters.).
Seen the first episode now, and I think it was quite good. Some nice action, a lot of weirdness, funny scenes and.....and....and....a masked, ass-kicking woman!
All that motivates me to watch the next episodes, looking forward on how this will develop.
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I just finished watching the first episode. I have not read the comic or seen the film, but did see the preview article in TV Guide. I thought it was pretty good. It feels like an ambitious series with a lot to say. It peaked my interest, I will keep on watching although I could have done without seeing Jeremy Irons in his birthday suit.
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Watched the episode 4 yesterday.
Oh boy, the amount of weirdness is entertaining. Sooooo many questions pop up while reallllllly strange things happen on screen :lol:
I hope for some more answers in the future episodes.
Right now I'm wondering where the Watchmen actually are....
And I want Silk "Latex" Spectre ;)
Last edited by Maskripper 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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The show is getting better and better as far as I'm concerned. There is clearly a lot more going on here than the viewer can possibly understand at this point, which explains why HBO asked for a voluntary embargo on reviews for a while.

So many mysteries and so much to unpack. I definitely see a lot of similarities to Lost - which is, of course, not surprising with Damon Lindelof at the helm. I just hope they eventually have more satisfying explanations than Lost did.

So far, we've seen only 2 (or possibly 3 if you count a brief long overhead shot of Dr. Manhattan I am pretty sure I spotted) of the original Minute Men. I wonder how many more will make an appearance. I'm particularly curious about what ever happened to Rorshach. :)
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I'm liking it
Maskripper wrote:
4 years ago

Right now I'm wondering where the Watchmen actually are....
And I want Silk "Latex" Spectre ;)
The Watchmen are decades older now (except maybe Dr. Manhatten).
Silk Spectre is on the show already. Introduced as Agent Blake in episode 3. (She's not Silk Spectre anymore.)

https://screenrant.com/watchmen-show-ni ... ter-comic/

:ninja:
the Scribbler

:christmastree:
If U C Xmas tree on TV show
it's Xmas Activism! :christmas:

:lynda1:
If U C attractive brunette in a movie

it's Dark Haired Women Activism!

Be very careful!
Don't B indoctrinated!
Cover your eyes! & ears!
:tv:
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^I guess our only hope for seeing Silk Spectre in costume on the show would be on the TV Show within the show.
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brdiy wrote:
4 years ago
^I guess our only hope for seeing Silk Spectre in costume on the show would be on the TV Show within the show.
Unless she has a daughter. ;)
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Or maybe a flashback or two.

Instead they decide to give us a heroine literally dressed like a nun. 🙄

It's a good thing they have an intriguing story, though, so I'm still following this.
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So, I'm up to date with the episodes so far, but I also found the explanation of why the show is the way it is: it's actually two shows that Lindelof melded into one.

Because of reading the Ta-Nehisi Coates book, Lindelof had a show he wanted to do about a descendant from the Tulsa race riots (the character of Angela Abar) but he couldn't get it made separately, so he merged it into the Watchmen (of which he is apparently quite a big fan, and knows all the lore, because there are tons of clear references to the comics, like the novel which this universe's version of 'Ma Kent' is reading in Episode 4).

That's the reason you're really seeing two separate shows combined into one so far - one show about Angela, and the other about Ozymandias.
The Adrian Veidt elements, in my opinion, are a lot more interesting. But they'll have to come together at some point.

As far as the show's presentation overall, my biggest question is why is the technology so selectively backwards in this universe's version of 2019.
On the one hand, there are: holographic touch-screen genealogy trees; an interactive AI who talks like Henry Louis Gates; remote control flying
drones that can pick up a car; a satellite feed that can transmit back photos of Mars; and centrifugal incubators that can create mature clones by spinning them into adulthood. But on the other hand, there are no cellphones, no laptops, no GPS and no internet, at least not that we've been shown. And instead of looking like any other modern city with a gleaming downtown (which it has), Tulsa is portrayed as a rural backwater.

As far as where Rorschach is...I think he died in the comic book, right? So the closest you get to Rorschach as a singular character (as opposed to the anonymous Kavalry members wearing his mask) is his left-wing counterpart - the cop who calls himself Looking Glass.

Those are my observations, but I'll continue to watch the Wokemen...er, woke the Watchmen....er, whatever.
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shevek wrote:
4 years ago
As far as where Rorschach is...I think he died in the comic book, right? So the closest you get to Rorschach as a singular character (as opposed to the anonymous Kavalry members wearing his mask) is his left-wing counterpart - the cop who calls himself Looking Glass.
Really? I don't remember him dying. :(
I really like Looking Glass as a character - but he's no Rorshach. :)
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TIEnTEEZ wrote:
4 years ago
shevek wrote:
4 years ago
As far as where Rorschach is...I think he died in the comic book, right? So the closest you get to Rorschach as a singular character (as opposed to the anonymous Kavalry members wearing his mask) is his left-wing counterpart - the cop who calls himself Looking Glass.
Really? I don't remember him dying. :(
I really like Looking Glass as a character - but he's no Rorshach. :)
Spoiler
He was like vaporized by Dr. Manhattan towards the end
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shevek wrote:
4 years ago

As far as the show's presentation overall, my biggest question is why is the technology so selectively backwards in this universe's version of 2019.
On the one hand, there are: holographic touch-screen genealogy trees; an interactive AI who talks like Henry Louis Gates; remote control flying
drones that can pick up a car; a satellite feed that can transmit back photos of Mars; and centrifugal incubators that can create mature clones by spinning them into adulthood. But on the other hand, there are no cellphones, no laptops, no GPS and no internet, at least not that we've been shown. And instead of looking like any other modern city with a gleaming downtown (which it has), Tulsa is portrayed as a rural backwater.
It's an alternate universe. Emphasis on 'alternate'. I'm sure that production wise, the decisions on which technologies are where are for plot convieniance, but from a story and narrative perspective, it's a simple quirk of the ultimate fact that technologies are going to evolve at different rates in variant universes. The reasons for this don't necessarily need to be expounded upon. Maybe they followed social trends, maybe the Watchmen's genius tier scientists were involved in different fields than those of our own? I don't see that it really matters to much? From what I can tell, the biggest change here is that there simply is no Internet... and that solitary fact has bled outward into the usefulness of certain other technologies, and as such their availability.
As far as where Rorschach is...I think he died in the comic book, right? So the closest you get to Rorschach as a singular character (as opposed to the anonymous Kavalry members wearing his mask) is his left-wing counterpart - the cop who calls himself Looking Glass.
You are correct. Rorshach is SUPER dead by the end of the comic book, and even if he HADN'T died there... its no stretch of the imagination that he could have died sometime after really xD. It's not like what he did was ever super safe.

I kind of think its interesting that the Kavalry is sorta painted as being filled with people that he'd probably want to kill... that being said I still can't shake the feeling that the Kavalry itself is just a big smokescreen for whats really going on... the fact they, the chief, and now Angela's grandaddy did the whole 'tick tock' thingy sorta throws a big monkey wrench into the idea that its all just a race war. I feel like the show may still be using the race angle as the decoy whilst attempting to illustrate it as socially acceptably as possible so that when they yank the rug out 'oh it was never about race actually' they aren't going to tick people off....

but don't quote me on any of that.
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I would urge people to jump onto this show. It is dropping its political bent (at least for the time being) and delving more into the developments
of the Watchmen universe.

Episode 5 was excellent - clearly the best one yet, and many critics are saying so. It's focusing on the character of Looking Glass (Wade Tillman) and his origin story. Wait until you see how his conspiratory mind gets blown!

The other part of the show is, of course, the continued attempts by Adrian Veidt to escape his pastoral prison.
Wait till you see where the prison is located! (hint: I wonder if they got the idea from 2010: A Space Odyssey, because I can't think of any
other series that has prominently used this location).

It's not really a 'superhero' show as we would really define it, but then again nor is it what you would expect.
I'm hooked for now and will keep on watching unless I get really disappointed.
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shevek wrote:
4 years ago

The other part of the show is, of course, the continued attempts by Adrian Veidt to escape his pastoral prison.
Wait till you see where the prison is located!
That whole scene was BRILLIANT!
The music and the things that happens there....what a great "contrast" :thumbup:
Quite a view!

This series will depend a lot on the last one or two episodes. I hope most the ? will be resolved then and all fits good together in the end.
So far it was a mysterious rollercoaster with quite a lot of WTF? moments.
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Maskripper wrote:
4 years ago
This series will depend a lot on the last one or two episodes. I hope most the ? will be resolved then and all fits good together in the end.
So far it was a mysterious rollercoaster with quite a lot of WTF? moments.
I think this is one of my biggest concerns. Given that this is a Damon Linedlof show, I remember what happened with Lost - which is that the show set up mystery after mystery and NONE of them were ever really resolved to my satisfaction. I suspect we are going to get burned again.
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TIEnTEEZ wrote:
4 years ago
Maskripper wrote:
4 years ago
This series will depend a lot on the last one or two episodes. I hope most the ? will be resolved then and all fits good together in the end.
So far it was a mysterious rollercoaster with quite a lot of WTF? moments.
I think this is one of my biggest concerns. Given that this is a Damon Linedlof show, I remember what happened with Lost - which is that the show set up mystery after mystery and NONE of them were ever really resolved to my satisfaction. I suspect we are going to get burned again.
This is what's put me off it.
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Right? Linedlof is such a question mark on a Mystery shows quality of longevity at this juncture it is ACTIVELY distracting for me. So far I don't know that I think it's asking 'unanswerable' questions (and many of the mysteries it does have are stuff you may actually ALREADY know the answers to if you are familiar with the original).... but I feel like I'm always bitting my fingernails woried that someone's gonna find a random hatch out in central park with a timer that uses Ancient Egyptian script that doesn't actually mean anything.
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Well, scratch what I said about Episode 5. That was a good one but it couldn't last.
Because Episode 6 went right back to the social justice-drenched content, heavier than ever, with yet another story about the Ku Klux Klan.
And it's just getting weird with the magical technology:
A movie projector that programs viewers to attack each other violently, that was somehow made in the 1940s?
A drug that allows people to relive their memories (or others' memories) which are somehow stored in a pill (isn't that supposed to happen In the Year 2525?)
And yet somehow they have not created the Internet.
Also trying to be as sexually edgy as the Boys: a black family man with a wife and a kid who also has gay sex with the leader of a superhero team?
And no Adrian Veidt segment in this one at all to break up all the black-and-white flashback segments.
Damon Lindelof's narcissistic journey through his own skyrocketing levels of guilt continues, I guess.
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shevek wrote:
4 years ago
Well, scratch what I said about Episode 5. That was a good one but it couldn't last.
Because Episode 6 went right back to the social justice-drenched content, heavier than ever, with yet another story about the Ku Klux Klan.
I actually do think it's a little bit straight forward and 'to simple' or 'to easy' a concept for something bearing the Watchmen's name. A Ku Klux Klan robe to show who the bad guys are is interesting writting if its a lie or historical... but for THE WATCHMEN it's about as complex as popping a zit... I will say that this last episode is very well made... and its social justice angle is being illustrated in a time period where racism was WILDLY out in the open... so particularly in this case, I don't think it'd have made much sense NOT to take the race angle... but it is starting to look like maybe that's the only angle the show as a whole is concerned with... I don't think that bothers me all that much in and of itself... but IDK if it needed to be a WATCHMEN show to tell the story it has told so far... however you could totally say that about a lot of sequels that move on into their own directions. Race/sexual tensions weren't ABSENT in the original Watchmen comic book. They were illustrated as existing about the same as ours along its position in the 'timeline'... Racism in the 1940's as in this episode is actually the most logical and true place to show it. Pretending like it was all roses and harmony for African Americans in the olden days is bad writing.

Now I shall answer the nonsence concerns of your following issues with the show.
And it's just getting weird with the magical technology:
A movie projector that programs viewers to attack each other violently, that was somehow made in the 1940s?
Alternate comic book dimension... where its possible for technology to turn a man into a god by Nixon's presidency...
A drug that allows people to relive their memories (or others' memories) which are somehow stored in a pill (isn't that supposed to happen In the Year 2525?)
ALTERNATE comic book dimension... where a man is trapped on Jupiters moon after having ALREADY teleported a giant squid into the middle of new york city and a memory pill is the hangup?
And yet somehow they have not created the Internet.
ALTERNATE COMIC BOOK DIMENSION!!!!! But I've actually found the reason for this one. From a storytelling angle it's so that information travels more slowly. In-universe, the government assigned the blame of the giant squid to Manhattan made technology, and have spent decades removing all technology that Dr. Manhattan had a hand in creating and slowly replacing it with things he had no hand in working on. The Internet is actually 'around the corner' in this universe but isn't quite there (This is why stuff like Rorschach's journal aren't common knowledge). one ponders if the sluggishness of a worldwide communications and information network has been held up BECAUSE of the government at this juncture.
Also trying to be as sexually edgy as the Boys: a black family man with a wife and a kid who also has gay sex with the leader of a superhero team?
I actually have an issue with this sequence as well... just probably NOT for the same reason as you. They essantially had NO CHOICE but to have him be homosexual. That 'Hooded Justice' was either homosexual or bisexual was essentially 'canonical allusion' in the comic books, so to make this character Hooded Justice means that he would also HAVE to be homosexual...................... my issue here is that they made this guy hooded justice, weren't interested in the sexual orientation angle and so made a single random scene to go 'see we're being true to the comic books' that if you removed would make it seem like he was as straight as an arrow... if, as an adapter, you don't care about the sexual orientation of your characters and would rather do a race thing, that's fine, but then you probably shouldn't ALSO make him mildly happily married to a woman with a child and put that up as the norm... and like cheating on her with a man was basically nothing. I think this one was actually pretty shitshod disrespectful or dismissive of the LGB community...
And no Adrian Veidt segment in this one at all to break up all the black-and-white flashback segments.
Damon Lindelof's narcissistic journey through his own skyrocketing levels of guilt continues, I guess.
It's called a bottle episode, and most shows do them once or twice a season. It comes from concern that breaking up what amounts to a baseline complete story inside of an episode with something not connected to it is distracting.......... and it is. A single scene with Iron's in this one would have served only to make us annoyed that we don't get to see more of him, and would have to be utterly unconnected with the story being told here. Not having him in it was the right choice.
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i liked the latest show. Yeah, it was a weird sort've side-track, but I enjoyed the story for what it is. I thought the whole thing with Hooded Justice and who he really is made a lot of sense. :)

The one thing I didn't get... and maybe this is a spoiler, so stop reading if you don't want to know...
Spoiler
So Laurie says they put a chip in your brain and extract your memories to put them into pill form, right? And Grandpa has the bottle of pills with him when Angela finds him at the base of the tree where the sheriff was hanged. So at what point does he have time to extract the memories of killing the sheriff and put them into the pills? Because Angela clearly experiencing his killing the sheriff.

So he gets caught by Angela... then escapes (when the flying ship picks up her car... and then he undergoes a procedure to add those last memories of killing the sheriff into pill form just so he can put them into the bottle and back in the car which then nearly gets dumped on Laurie's head so that Angela will find them?

Does that seem to anyone else to be overly convoluted?
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