Do we need a heroine at all?

[TIEnTEEZ]

I don't watch professional wrestling, but it's my understanding that when I was a kid, there used to be good guys and bad guys, and that now, there are no longer any good guys. All of the wrestlers are now bad guys, because the good guys are boring and the bad guys are more interesting.

So my question is... does this same principle apply to the super-heroine video genre? Does a video even need a good girl?
Would a Villainess vs. Villainess video be just as good, if not better?

[tallyho]

Part of the draw for me is seeing the good guys lose (or nearly lose) so , yes imho, yes we do!

[rayman]

Interesting topic I have never been a comic reader so I have no exposure to very sexy villans, I cab only think of Catwoman and Formicida and neither of them are anyway as near as sexy as Wonder Woman or Supergirl or She Hulk to me.
I am as happy watching WW slug it our with SG as I am WW battling a powered up villaness so I don't need the good versus evil so I would probablt still enjoy two hot sexy superpowered villanesses fighting it out and that is why I did not cast a vote.

[Heroine Addict]

Without heroines, we wouldn't have the humiliating fall from grace. We would just have a battle between peers with one of them coming off worse.

For me, the superheroine peril genre is about transgression and subversion. It's about finally seeing the awful fates promised by the classic serials and comics. A promise which the mainstream writers cruelly reneged upon, as the heroine always escaped and triumphed at the last minute.

[TIEnTEEZ]

Without heroines, we wouldn't have the humiliating fall from grace. We would just have a battle between peers with one of them coming off worse.

For me, the superheroine peril genre is about transgression and subversion. It's about finally seeing the awful fates promised by the classic serials and comics. A promise which the mainstream writers cruelly reneged upon, as the heroine always escaped and triumphed at the last minute.

Interesting. Isn't the defeat and humiliation of a powerful, arrogant, super-villainess just as satisfying?

[Heroine Addict]

Interesting. Isn't the defeat and humiliation of a powerful, arrogant, super-villainess just as satisfying?

It depends on the type of defeat. "Goodness" is loaded with connotations of purity and virtue, so it's a real comedown for someone like Wonder Woman to become a slut.

[TIEnTEEZ]

Interesting. Isn't the defeat and humiliation of a powerful, arrogant, super-villainess just as satisfying?

It depends on the type of defeat. "Goodness" is loaded with connotations of purity and virtue, so it's a real comedown for someone like Wonder Woman to become a slut.

I get where you're coming from. To me, it's just as interesting to see a powerful villainess who is used to getting what she wants and dominating other people to get a taste of her own medicine.

[Heroine Addict]

I get where you're coming from. To me, it's just as interesting to see a powerful villainess who is used to getting what she wants and dominating other people to get a taste of her own medicine.

Yeah, I can see how it's fun for the dominatrix to suddenly have the whip snatched from her hand. In that situation, a "good girl" character would be redundant because you need the usurper to be just as deviant as the defeated villainess.

I've often thought of scenarios in which a defiled and corrupted "good girl" becomes more powerful as a "bad girl" than the villainess ever expected and turns the tables. That way, you get to see two humiliating takedowns.

[TIEnTEEZ]

I get where you're coming from. To me, it's just as interesting to see a powerful villainess who is used to getting what she wants and dominating other people to get a taste of her own medicine.

Yeah, I can see how it's fun for the dominatrix to suddenly have the whip snatched from her hand. In that situation, a "good girl" character would be redundant because you need the usurper to be just as deviant as the defeated villainess.

I've often thought of scenarios in which a defiled and corrupted "good girl" becomes more powerful as a "bad girl" than the villainess ever expected and turns the tables. That way, you get to see two humiliating takedowns.

Have you seen "Argon Girl Transformed?"
http://www.hypnoticsworld.com/viddetail.php?id=259

It's exactly what you just described.

[Heroine Addict]

Have you seen "Argon Girl Transformed?"
http://www.hypnoticsworld.com/viddetail.php?id=259

It's exactly what you just described.

That's one of my favorites from MH. Sarah Jain and Melissa both do peril really well.

[rayman]

Without heroines, we wouldn't have the humiliating fall from grace. We would just have a battle between peers with one of them coming off worse.

For me, the superheroine peril genre is about transgression and subversion. It's about finally seeing the awful fates promised by the classic serials and comics. A promise which the mainstream writers cruelly reneged upon, as the heroine always escaped and triumphed at the last minute.

I can see your point and once again the answer to this thought provoking question from TnT is going to come down to personal tastes.

As for me I just love strong,powerful beautiful and sexy women and at the top of that tree are the superheroine/supervillanesses and because the content I crave most of physical combat then the humiliation and transgressing is not something I look for that is why producers like the superheroines are perfect for my tastes as they don't really do sexual scenes or humiliation in a major way.

I am struggling to think of two villanesses I would like to see battle it out as Meleena would be no match for Titania and catwoman would be in trouble against eithe rof them, I suspect anyway.

[Void]

Cool question, I can see where you're coming from. A powerful villainess being laid low by a rival would probably be as good an experience as if it were a conventional heroine. A haughty villainess can fall just as far and be just as indignant as any heroine. Its also often the case that baddies are way more interesting characters than goodies, as I guess wrestling producers agree, so having baddie on baddie interactions can't be a bad recipe. There's definitely meat on them bones, though I wouldn't use it to totally replace doing it to a heroine - much better to widen your palette and find room for both.

If I HAD to pick between them, I'm still going to come down on keeping the heroine. There's something more at stake when its the good girl that I quite like. The prospect of failure seems worse and the contrast of ideals is more pleasing - specially if the villain(ess) starts to subvert the heroine. Pretty much agree with the way Heroine Addict puts it.

[Ezekiel]

The whole magic of superheroine peril is that you have a powerful woman symbolizing everything that is beautiful and righteous getting destroyed by something which is ugly and wicked. These four concepts are defined by the way our modern society is shaped and it is an unwritten rule that good should always win. Two wicked women battling each other can be interesting or erotic, but it will never have the same magic since nothing considered "forbidden" by our society takes place.

[Dragon1]

The whole magic of superheroine peril is that you have a powerful woman symbolizing everything that is beautiful and righteous getting destroyed by something which is ugly and wicked. These four concepts are defined by the way our modern society is shaped and it is an unwritten rule that good should always win. Two wicked women battling each other can be interesting or erotic, but it will never have the same magic since nothing considered "forbidden" by our society takes place.

Ezekiel speaks like a prophet, and his words ring true, without a heroine two bad girls do,what bad girls would do.

[CustomSuperheroines]

I believe a great story can be made with villains alone. But in that story, villains do have heroine qualities and pure intentions. Pure evil vs pure evil can also be epic, but as many have stated, you lose the factor of a loss of innocence or defilement without the good side turning or falling. So I'd say yes you can make a great story, but you may feel like something is missing.

[Superman246o1]

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Part of what makes the genre so thrilling to me is that the superheroine is someone who is putting herself at risk for the sake of others. If two villainesses fight it out, who cares? They both deserve their fate, so there's no sense of suspense. With a superheroine, it's the exact opposite. Not only does the sense of her personal peril increase the excitement; there is also the sense that if she loses, innocent people will be hurt as well.

In the film Supergirl, when Kara is struggling against the Shadow Demon, she's the only person standing between Selena and world domination. She's fighting to save the world, yet can't even save herself. Similarly, when Wonder Woman fights against the Zardor, she's fighting to save millions of people from having their minds either stolen or driven insane. That risk makes it far more troubling when the Zardor appears to be stronger than her. The look of fear on Diana's face is enhanced by the knowledge that the world can't afford her to lose, although she doesn't look like she can win.

If you enjoy two villainesses going against each other, power to you. Everyone has their own thing that makes them Rick. For me, however, if there is no superheroine, I'm not interested at all.

[Superman246o1]

...that makes them "tick". Fie on you, autocorrect!

[Dazzle1]

I get where you're coming from. To me, it's just as interesting to see a powerful villainess who is used to getting what she wants and dominating other people to get a taste of her own medicine.

Yeah, I can see how it's fun for the dominatrix to suddenly have the whip snatched from her hand. In that situation, a "good girl" character would be redundant because you need the usurper to be just as deviant as the defeated villainess.

I've often thought of scenarios in which a defiled and corrupted "good girl" becomes more powerful as a "bad girl" than the villainess ever expected and turns the tables. That way, you get to see two humiliating takedowns.

--

I agree and some producers may want to take note. There is nothing more boaring than having the same thread; where the villaness always wins. I enjoys the rare video where Batgirl gets to dominate Catwoman. Liewise i could see a scenario where Wonder Woman and supergirl fight it out or who is the Top cat: Catwoman or Cheetah

[Ezekiel]

I agree and some producers may want to take note. There is nothing more boaring than having the same thread; where the villaness always wins. I enjoys the rare video where Batgirl gets to dominate Catwoman. Liewise i could see a scenario where Wonder Woman and supergirl fight it out or who is the Top cat: Catwoman or Cheetah

I want to comment a bit on this. For me, the kind of magic I talked about in my previous post remains present even if the heroine ultimately wins. The image with the heroine standing victorious, with the villainess having her hands shackled and her head lowered, or looking back at the heroine with impotent anger, is just as powerful as the heroine's annihilation, with a few conditions:

1. The heroine was in very serious peril, nearly or completely defeated, but received help from sidekicks who were either ordinary women or much less powerful heroines. That is, she didn't exactly save the day, but rather made a comeback near the end and managed to get the snapshot with the defeated villainess in the manner described above (she can have a decisive contribution, like flying the nuclear bomb the villainess planned to detonate in outer space or something, but she would have failed without help from sidekicks).

2. She must never lower herself to the villainesses' level. She cannot torture or humiliate the villainess in any way, because this would rob her of the virtues she symbolizes.

I imagine a lot of people probably don't share these ideas, but I thought it was a good time to express them.

[viking]

I agree with Ezekial. I have no intrest in villian vs villian. Also, I fail to see the appeal of heroine vs heroine.

[CustomSuperheroines]

I agree with Ezekial. I have no intrest in villian vs villian. Also, I fail to see the appeal of heroine vs heroine.

Hmmm.... then our Super vs Evil series is not for you lol it's mostly Heroine vs Heroine for one reason or another... I can't say I agree with the Heroine not allowing to succumb or stoop to the level of the villainess... I feel this shows that they do have an emotional range. And even if and when they do, let's say out of anger or revenge, snap a villain's neck, it's how they react to that action that conveys whether they are indeed a Heroine, anti-Heroine, or have succumbed to the evil side. For me, this makes for great characterization and interesting story lines... in one of our series, Heroine Legends, our character Allura goes through many of these situations and does ultimately become evil. She is one of my favorite characters of that series...

[TIEnTEEZ]

I'm surprised this question has resulted in such an interesting discussion.

It's strange to think that we are all interested in such a niche fetish (super-heroines) and yet we have such widely varied specific tastes within the genre. I'm often surprised by this.

It seems like a lot of folks are in it because they like to see the destruction of innocence.

For me, it's all about power (or the lack thereof). So to my mind, defeating a villain is better than defeating a hero in a lot of ways, since villains generally have more raw power and rely more on that power. and are less able to deal with it when they lose that power.

[Private Citizen of Gotham]

I don't watch professional wrestling, but it's my understanding that when I was a kid, there used to be good guys and bad guys, and that now, there are no longer any good guys. All of the wrestlers are now bad guys, because the good guys are boring and the bad guys are more interesting.

So my question is... does this same principle apply to the super-heroine video genre? Does a video even need a good girl?
Would a Villainess vs. Villainess video be just as good, if not better?

What happened was fans of today grew up on guys like Stone cold and The Rock who cussed and raised hell. Parents would come in to tell you to turn off that mess. Then later down the road WWE starts pushing a guy named John Cena who never gets out of order and plays kiss ads to the fans. While that may go over with kids ATTITUDE era fans hate it so naturally they started to root for the heels who remind them of there old heroes

[Mr. X]

Very interesting question. And it seems to be carrying into mainstream material. Superman isn't the good golden boy. Batman is merely a villain himself. In fact there aren't that many straight up good guys except maybe Capt America.

[theScribbler]

Since superheroines are mostly good, I'd think most videos need a good superheroine. But a sub-genre of V vs V with hot villainess victim works for me.

[CustomSuperheroines]

Very interesting question. And it seems to be carrying into mainstream material. Superman isn't the good golden boy. Batman is merely a villain himself. In fact there aren't that many straight up good guys except maybe Capt America.

LOVE the avatar

[CustomSuperheroines]

Since superheroines are mostly good, I'd think most videos need a good superheroine. But a sub-genre of V vs V with hot villainess victim works for me.

I agree. But further, I also believe that sometimes you don't know what is hot until you see it... I know I've found that out on many o' occasion...

[Richpartist]

Like the old song says."I need a hero.....INE"

[theScribbler]

Since superheroines are mostly good, I'd think most videos need a good superheroine. But a sub-genre of V vs V with hot villainess victim works for me.

I agree. But further, I also believe that sometimes you don't know what is hot until you see it... I know I've found that out on many o' occasion...

Good reason to release all your movies for free so people can 'see it' if they're hot or not!

[CustomSuperheroines]

Since superheroines are mostly good, I'd think most videos need a good superheroine. But a sub-genre of V vs V with hot villainess victim works for me.

I agree. But further, I also believe that sometimes you don't know what is hot until you see it... I know I've found that out on many o' occasion...

Good reason to release all your movies for free so people can 'see it' if they're hot or not!

and then never make a film again...

[theScribbler]

Or it could be the marketing genius move of the year!

Well, OK, not all of the movies, just the two best ones, hottest ones, the ones that would get people hooked on them, and clamouring for more.

[Ezekiel]

Scribbler, nothing that is good in life comes for free .

[kingles]

Does a video even need a good girl? Would a Villainess vs. Villainess video be just as good, if not better?

I'd say yes to the first question, and no to the second. As Heroine Addict said, there can be no fall from grace without having grace to begin with. As Superman246o1 said, there are enhanced stakes when you have a heroine who's fighting for something greater than herself vs. a villainess fighting simply for her personal benefit or pride.

I think these sort of concepts hold true regardless of whether a person is into sexual peril, bondage, mind control/corruption, fight scenes, or whatever. The things I'm into generally...are simply more impactful when it involves a heroine/heroines. I've bought quite a few non-heroine videos, and I like most of them...but it really isn't quite the same. That's why we're HERE after all...isn't it? Sure a villainess vs villainess video could be good, I just don't think it could be AS good.

[CustomSuperheroines]

Does a video even need a good girl? Would a Villainess vs. Villainess video be just as good, if not better?

I'd say yes to the first question, and no to the second. As Heroine Addict said, there can be no fall from grace without having grace to begin with. As Superman246o1 said, there are enhanced stakes when you have a heroine who's fighting for something greater than herself vs. a villainess fighting simply for her personal benefit or pride.

I think these sort of concepts hold true regardless of whether a person is into sexual peril, bondage, mind control/corruption, fight scenes, or whatever. The things I'm into generally...are simply more impactful when it involves a heroine/heroines. I've bought quite a few non-heroine videos, and I like most of them...but it really isn't quite the same. That's why we're HERE after all...isn't it? Sure a villainess vs villainess video could be good, I just don't think it could be AS good.

But then again, what if the villainess WAS a heroine? Some of the qualities can shine through uncertain situations... It's all about the characters I think. Maybe?

[kingles]

I agree. But further, I also believe that sometimes you don't know what is hot until you see it... I know I've found that out on many o' occasion...

That reminds me of an ill fated subscription I bought for an erotic hypnosis site several years ago. I thought I'd hit the jackpot, only to discover to my absolute shock that it didn't really do anything for me. The effect was nothing at all like the mind control scenarios that I was actually into. It really is just a bunch of trial and error to figure this stuff out.

[Ezekiel]

But then again, what if the villainess WAS a heroine? Some of the qualities can shine through uncertain situations... It's all about the characters I think. Maybe?

Let's assume you have not one, but several evil bitches involved in dastardly acts. One of them sees the error of her ways and decides to leave the criminal past behind. Whatever happens (she becomes a heroine and loses or her old partners decide to pay a surprise visit) it will never be as interesting because she was never a symbol of virtue. Once an evil bitch, always an evil bitch, and evil bitches get no sympathy. I think in the best case you get something like Kill Bill.

However...

One scenario which is very interesting for me is one where both a villainess and a superheroine are together in a messy situation (let's say they are stranded in the wilderness), but the heroine is in a state of weakness and she depends on the mercy or whims of the villainess for her survival. The magic is once again due to the fact that the virtous woman is in a situation that is considered "forbidden" for her status and the role she plays in society.

[kingles]

But then again, what if the villainess WAS a heroine? Some of the qualities can shine through uncertain situations... It's all about the characters I think. Maybe?

I'd say that if the villainess WAS a heroine, you'd have a heroine corruption scenario there. That is actually one of my favorite things. However, that does require that she be established as a heroine FIRST. You've actually done quite a bit along these lines.