Does Custom = Getting Screwed For Sure ??

[badgirlsrule]

I'm really new here and learning a lot each day.

I've been reading like crazy as much as I can about custom shoots today.
And I've emailed with a couple of very helpful members on the subject.

Commissioning custom shoots seems like a major headache
to say the least.

Not just because of the unscrupulous practices of some performers/production
companies; but also what can be standard practice of some companies,
after a successful shoot !

I am referring to companies with the practice of OWNING the commissioned
work, slapping their name on it & and making 100% profit
for themselves from any future sales !!!

Outrageous and unethical I say. If I for example commission a project:
pay for costs, production & post-production services.. all in advance..

then to my mind, I own that product.

I should have the right to distribute it any way I like,
and enjoy any revenue earned as a result.

It's bad enough that some performers/producers are clearly shafting
some customers, some of the time; but losing ownership of your own project
to even good companies.. Is being screwed period.

[Mr. X]

That's whatever deal you work out with the producer. More than likely the producer will charge a lot more if its a custom JUST for you. But if you allow them to sell the product then they will give you a discount.

[Rye]

Cape_and_Boots-
I can count the number of customs i've done on one hand... but what your describing is not custom order, commissioned movie, or what ever else you want to call it. What you are asking for is to be the actual Producer of the movie. You want to basically hire a team at a set cost to plan, film and edit your movie/vision and then you want to distribute it to recoup your investment / make a profit.

That is being the Producer, not ordering a custom

[theScribbler]

Cape_and_Boots-
I can count the number of customs i've done on one hand... but what your describing is not custom order, commissioned movie, or what ever else you want to call it. What you are asking for is to be the actual Producer of the movie. You want to basically hire a team at a set cost to plan, film and edit your movie/vision and then you want to distribute it to recoup your investment / make a profit.

That is being the Producer, not ordering a custom

+1. What Rye said.

[badgirlsrule]

Cape_and_Boots-
I can count the number of customs i've done on one hand... but what your describing is not custom order, commissioned movie, or what ever else you want to call it. What you are asking for is to be the actual Producer of the movie. You want to basically hire a team at a set cost to plan, film and edit your movie/vision and then you want to distribute it to recoup your investment / make a profit.

That is being the Producer, not ordering a custom

Rye..

Left to my own devices.. I'd be happy to commission a clip/mini-movie
that only I would ever see.

I am not some wannabe producer. Merely a prospective customer
who would love to see one of my fictional fantasies become a reality.

It's not that I want to distribute my theoretical film, or make a profit.
It's the fact that I can't if I want to.

Even more hurtful, is the fact that I may have ownership of something that
I conceived, completely taken away from me.

If I have covered all production costs, surely shouldn't I own the finished product ???

If all costs are NOT covered by the company quote, that's a different matter
I agree.

Then I would say, more understanding or negotiation between company
and customer needs to be established before shooting commences.

A simple solution would be an agreement between customer and company
of either sole customer ownership, or shared ownership with the company.
Depending on the option chosen by the customer, an appropriate additional
fee would be added to the quote.

If the customer is happy to relinquish ownership completely to the company,
then perhaps a discount could be applied to the quote.

At least in this way, the customer has a choice.

Finally, you raised:

Production companies having to plan,film and edit for custom projects..

Err. Yes. Isn't that part of the deal ? If not.. the quotes being given
to prospective customers are not being calculated correctly by companies.

Why should producers have more rights & benefits than other working people ?

[LeeCarl]

I've ordered a few customs myself. And to be honest, I've only had a bad experience with one producer. The custom process is, unfortunately, a costly one. The frustrations you share right now are why I decided to make my own films in the first place. I have a day job, and I produce films on the side that I want to see. Granted, since this isn't my main job, it's a lot longer process for me than those who do this full time.

The other thing you'll want to keep in mind, however, is that even if you cover all the "costs" of the film, the producers absolutely need to make a profit on it. Whether they do it part time or full time, they aren't just paying for work to get done. They are doing the work. And it takes a lot of time. If I worked a for a month planning, shooting, and editing a video, only to just be "reimbursed", with no margin of profit, what does that get me?

On top of that, owning the rights to the "project" any way you like may not legally possible if it is the result of a "custom" order, at least to my knowledge. I'm still relatively new to producing, so please forgive me. The person who owns/distributes the project is the one legally responsible for maintaining all the records, including models real names, proof of their age, social security numbers, and all that jazz. And not just the model. Anyone who was paid to work on the film, or was even on set. On top of that, they are responsible for sending out tax info to anyone who worked for them during the year. And the work is never done with any particular film. And for obvious reasons, not everyone who orders a custom is privy to that information. It's a huge confidentiality issue. If any of those records are ever lost, you pretty much have to pull the film, as you can't sell it without those legal documents. They often need a business license to sell as well.

To be completely honest, I felt just like you when I used to order customs. But when I did my first film, a whole new world of information opened up to me. While this may not completely ebb your frustration, I hope it does provide some clarification for why people who order customs can't own and distribute the product.

[swampy170]

Loving all these super-longwinded posts you guys!

Buying a custom and buying a production are 2 completely different things.

Totally possible to buy a production - just expect to be paying in the many thousands rather than many hundreds of dollars.

Paying for a custom you don't really cover ALL the costs - if you count the time producers spend editing scripts, negotiating, organising logistics, actually shooting, post production etc. the costs are much greater. They need to sell your vids to recoup these costs

As I remember Christina Carter was offering customs where just you can see them - just expect to pay ALOT more!

Pretty long myself too X-)

[Shakeshift]

+1 to Rye's post. I could not agree more. If you want to be a producer, then just grow a set and BE a producer.
(Good luck with that, btw.)

Also, Rye.... I sent you a PM about this whole thread. Let me know what you think.

[badgirlsrule]

On top of that, owning the rights to the "project" any way you like may not legally possible if it is the result of a "custom" order, at least to my knowledge. I'm still relatively new to producing, so please forgive me. The person who owns/distributes the project is the one legally responsible for maintaining all the records, including models real names, proof of their age, social security numbers, and all that jazz. And not just the model. Anyone who was paid to work on the film, or was even on set. On top of that, they are responsible for sending out tax info to anyone who worked for them during the year. And the work is never done with any particular film. And for obvious reasons, not everyone who orders a custom is privy to that information. It's a huge confidentiality issue. If any of those records are ever lost, you pretty much have to pull the film, as you can't sell it without those legal documents. They often need a business license to sell as well. .

Hi LeeCarl

Now that was enlightening.

I hadn't considered those particular issues (as I'm sure most prospective customers
wouldn't).

Your particular insight puts a new spin on things for me.

Thank you very much..
(And best of luck with your own production work).

[badgirlsrule]

+1 to Rye's post. I could not agree more. If you want to be a producer, then just grow a set and BE a producer.
(Good luck with that, btw.)

Also, Rye.... I sent you a PM about this whole thread. Let me know what you think.

Shakeshift... I already said I do not want to be a producer !!

And you producers just complaining & backing each other up;
(and PM-ing each other about this 'thread' ?)

Way to go..

I'm really going to be more sympathetic to your positions now.

[badgirlsrule]

Loving all these super-longwinded posts you guys!

Buying a custom and buying a production are 2 completely different things.

Totally possible to buy a production - just expect to be paying in the many thousands rather than many hundreds of dollars.

Paying for a custom you don't really cover ALL the costs - if you count the time producers spend editing scripts, negotiating, organising logistics, actually shooting, post production etc. the costs are much greater. They need to sell your vids to recoup these costs

As I remember Christina Carter was offering customs where just you can see them - just expect to pay ALOT more!

Pretty long myself too X-)

Thank you swampy170 for providing more useful/helpful information to this issue.

[CustomSuperheroines]

Loving all these super-longwinded posts you guys!

Buying a custom and buying a production are 2 completely different things.

Totally possible to buy a production - just expect to be paying in the many thousands rather than many hundreds of dollars.

Paying for a custom you don't really cover ALL the costs - if you count the time producers spend editing scripts, negotiating, organising logistics, actually shooting, post production etc. the costs are much greater. They need to sell your vids to recoup these costs

As I remember Christina Carter was offering customs where just you can see them - just expect to pay ALOT more!

Pretty long myself too X-)

Thank you swampy170 for providing more useful/helpful information to this issue.

Just my potentially unwanted 2 cents here:

You have to also realize that when you commission a custom order, you're essentially operating under the premise of a work-for-hire contract. This means that no matter how much percentage of the creative process you are personally contributing, the ownership of the content belongs to the company you are working with. Even though you are contributing some of your funds to the completion of a said project, those funds are for you to realize a concept that you did not, for whatever reason, put together on your own. Because you are not paying 100% of the cost of producing that film, your contribution is seen legally as a donation.

You have essentially "hired" the production studio of your choice to create a film you want to see and, because you're paying a portion of actual production costs, the production company owns the content and is able to redistribute and sell it in order to recoup all monies spent to make the film, and then, of course, a profit if possible.

The tricky thing, at least for me, when it comes to custom orders is that they are hit or miss with sales numbers. There is only one guaranteed person who will like the film you commission. You. I've had some customs TANK in sales compared to films I would have created on my own - and I've had some customs do extremely well. It's a gamble for us - which is why we charge to create them. The risk is a lot less when the buyer is funding a portion of the film.

What I don't understand from this thread is this: You helped fund a custom and perhaps wrote a script... why would you get ownership when you didn't "produce" the film? All you did was invest in it with the final product as your ROI. Just curious...

[badgirlsrule]

This thread is in danger of becoming a war-zone.. which was never my intention.

I'm grateful for the truly useful insights this has raised.

I've learnt some useful things about production costs, and why the fee
charged for a custom does not cover all production costs.

In light of this.. I may indeed be agreeable to paying someone for a
custom in the future.

If I have to surrender ownership, at least I know why now.

However..

And I can only speak for myself here as a prospective customer:

If I feel suspicious of a company's practices, or simply disagree with them;
Or feel they are rude/immature, or worse - disrespectful / condescending
towards me..

then I simply will not do business with them.

That's the ultimate power of any prospective customer.

If I pay for a service (whatever the scope of the agreement), it's my money
and I damn well deserve to be treated with some respect.

I also point out that there are bad/rude customers too. Just because someone
pays for something, it does not give them the right to abuse/be rude to
the company providing the service.

Customers need to behave with integrity too.

That said..

Any truly professional company will respect its customers, and appreciate
the custom.

Without maintained custom, businesses lack revenue,
and ultimately go bust.

Customers need good companies to provide good services, and
good companies need good customers to survive.

I think that's all I want to say.

[CustomSuperheroines]

All valid points. And you should go where you feel you're respected and valued - that's all part of custom service.

[rayman]

@Cape and boots - One thing I can say about loosing rights of ownership is that it can be a very good thing.
I have had several customs and partial customs and not too long ago I had a custom done for me by Alex David, it was the Liberty Girl v Lady Death, now the good thing that happened is that somenody liked Lady Death so much that they had their own custom done with Lady Death taking on another supwerheroine so in effect I got to buy an amazing video along the lines I enjoy most for a fraction of the cost of my original custom, it was brilliant!

I don't think this thread is a warzone but the thread title could of been more procucer friendly LOL!

[TIEnTEEZ]

Well... I've had a lot of experience with ordering customs. Most of my experiences have been very positive. Of course, there are always a few bad apples.

I've tried out a lot of different producers. I always like to start off ordering a relatively small project just to see how they do and if they do a good job, I will go back to them for more.

As far as ownership of the finished video goes, I don't think it's fair to say that it is in any way unethical for producers to keep ownership. In addition to the long list of very good reasons already discussed here, I can add a couple more.

1) You know the deal from the beginning. You know that the studio owns the film, and you agree to that before buying one. So I don't see how you could possibly call that "getting screwed." Unless the studio lies to you and tells you that you will own the video and then reneges, that's perfectly reasonable and ethical behavior.

2) These producers are in business. It's not charity. They have to be able to make money in order to stay in business. So if you want to exclusively own the video, they would have to charge you a lot more to make up from the loss of profit they would have gotten selling the video to other customers.

Anyway, if you are concerned about dealing with a particular producer, post here and ask for reviews. I've dealt with a lot of them, and I'd be more than happy to tell you which ones have treated me well and which haven't.

I'll tell you one thing I look for is a good e-mail response. If I send a script to a producer and it takes them a long time to respond, or they respond with one or two sentences, don't waste your time. These are not producers, these are hobbyists and they will take your money and maybe get around to making your video some day, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

But if you send an e-mail and get a response in a couple of days and they ask you for more details about your script, those are the ones you want to deal with, because they care about making you a good video.

[Camvoy Productions]

Whenever I've done a custom or commission for someone, the back-and-forth has come down to the minute details, just to be sure everything is understood going into the shoot, along with contingency plans in case of a need for a Plan B (or Plan C or even Plan D). After that, it's a matter of the price quote and if it works, it works, and if it doesn't, then the customer is welcome to try someone else in the hopes of a better deal.

I've actually just experienced such a thing where someone wanted to commission us for a clip for their own site. The person in question also shopped around to see if anyone else would be willing to provide the content for his/her site for a smaller price. Someone out there offered cheaper. It happens.

That's the nature of the beast when it comes to these things. On the other hand, there have been the custom videos and photo sets that have turned out just fine. I dare not speak on behalf of all producers, but I can say for myself that it's always a rewarding experience to bring someone else's fantasy to life after they've paid money for it, and getting that thumbs up approval afterwards.

[TIEnTEEZ]

Yeah, Camvoy brings up another good point. That's another thing I always look for in a producer. If they follow-up and ask you how you liked your video and if there is anything they could have done better.

When it comes down to it, buying a custom video is really ALL about customer service.

[badgirlsrule]

This is more like it

The last few posts are very helpful and enlightening.
Good information and advice is very helpful to a newbie like me.

I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking all producers !
(Although I'm all for challenging & outing the bad ones).

My position on ownership was based on NOT knowing that the price
of a custom was not the full production cost; and that there may also
be legal requirements that must be adhered to.

Also as long as the ownership policy is made clear to the prospective
customer before production, then I see nothing to complain about afterwards.

I was thinking purely from an artistic perspective..
"It's my baby.. How can anyone have the right to take it from me !"

My bad.

[JohnFeer]

I take the view on customs that my fantasies are unique to me, if I wait around I'll never see them given expression. So I happily pay money to producers I have found to be reliable to have my ideas and fetishes brought to life....if they can resell so much the better for them, fetish video producers gotta eat too,

[badgirlsrule]

I've sure learnt a lot this past week !
The most important points being:

1.That the fee charged for a custom, may not be the whole cost of the entire production.

2.That producers need to own the final product so they can begin to make their costs
back.. and some profit for their business.

3.That based on 2).. Not everything a fan may want , a producer will be happy to
shoot, because they may not be able to re-sell it.

4.That producers may have legal requirements & legal record keeping
duties to adhere to, that affects who can actually own the custom.

5.As a prospective customer.. Make sure you understand the above.

6 Paying for a custom is not the same as financing your dreamed-off
indie-movie.

7.Based on 3) You may not find a producer who can make the custom
you would like to see.

8.There may be exceptions to 2) & 7)
The producer may be able to let you exclusively own the clip/movie;
or shoot your unsellable niche-niche product.. But you will have to
pay an additional fee. And it won't be cheap (see number 1)

9.It is safest to give your money to a custom producer: who
comes recommended by other fans who know from experience,
who is professional, polite and helpful to deal with.
But beware of smooth-talkers too.

See guys.. I'm learning

[TIEnTEEZ]

[Lurkndog]

One thing more about ordering a custom: before you write a script, find out how much detail the producer actually wants.

I ordered a 10-minute custom video a couple years back, and I was all ready to produce a full script, but it turned out the producer only wanted a page with a rough outline and maybe a few key lines. They mostly ad-lib their videos, and don't really work from a script.

[CustomSuperheroines]

One thing more about ordering a custom: before you write a script, find out how much detail the producer actually wants.

I ordered a 10-minute custom video a couple years back, and I was all ready to produce a full script, but it turned out the producer only wanted a page with a rough outline and maybe a few key lines. They mostly ad-lib their videos, and don't really work from a script.

As a producer, I'll add to this. Though we DO work from a script, we allow a lot of creative freedoms to our cast and directors.

When custom buyers submit full scripts, typically, they are too long or need to be rewritten which is more difficult than writing them from scratch.

More importantly, following a script from a custom buyer is very difficult and time consuming because the buyer expects their script to be acted out as written. Even with my scripts, we make TONS of changes on set.

I prefer simply the basics. Tell me who you want, the character, certain types of situations and that's it. Let us create the film based on those parameters. It's better that way.

[dbud]

To Cape and Boots,

I have never ordered a custom and probably never will, just not my thing, but thought I'd offer my two cents. I have to disagree with your basic premise. You may be paying for the custom but the producer is doing all the work. Even if you are paying all the costs you could still not make the movie you are buying on your own.

That producer has the equipment, the actors, the contacts to do editing, effects, etc. that you do not. All those things are cultivated over time and you cannot just over the course of a weekend develop all that stuff. So in the cost of the custom is not camera rental because the producer already has one but if you went and bought a camera to film and editing software and contacted a modeling agency or agents and screened actors and developed those relationships you'd be paying a ton more money than what the producer is charging. You are getting the benefit of all the time and effort the producer has already spent doing all that stuff.

What you are paying for is someone to film to your specific requests which they would not normally do. To say that you think you should own the end product I think is one step too far. The producer owns the product, they just let you provide the core plot.

As to the whole outline versus full script, I'd try to keep in mind that there is a big difference between simply writing something on a piece of paper and actually getting it on film. Dealing with real world issues and people is a totally different ball game. The amount of effort that goes into a single few seconds of film is huge.

PS: just read the rest of the thread and it looks like C&B softened his initial comments. so, not all my above thoughts are relevant, but I will leave them to add to the conversation.

[badgirlsrule]

I am learning that probably going as simple as possible,
is probably best when it comes to writing a custom,

Don't expect a custom to fulfill your great, imagined masterwork.

Keeping things simple includes.. descriptions of actions & camera shots.
Probably don't include much of these in your script.

And keep dialogue to an absolute minimum.
I'm getting the impression that producers & performers prefer dialogue,
to be ad-lib rather than be scripted (?)

These limitations clearly restrict the writer; so perhaps customs are not
the best option for writers of detailed, specific stories (?)

If however, a writer can live with the restrictions, and understand them;
then having a custom made by a good producer, could still be
a satisfying experience.

I'm still learning, but these are the impressions about customs,
I'm getting.

[tommy84]

A good tip is to view it the other way around. You help funding a movie that is mainly tailored towards your interests/fetishes. Those fetishes may not be the "go-to fetish" a producer does regularly, so if you commission your custom and once it is released breaks the sales records figures (or does reasonably well at least) you can be pretty sure that another movie will be made with your fetishes or interests and you can simply buy for a few dozen bucks.

[MightyHypnotic]

Don't expect a masterwork if you're not willing to pay for it. You're using the word masterwork and cheap in the same thread and it's just not possible.

time + scenes + dialogue = money. There's no way around it. I gurantee that if you use one of the producers from this forum, you'll get a good product for your money.

Here's the problem with dialogue. In most other productions, like indie films or mainstream, a lot of time is spent on dialogue in meetings and rehearsals. The dialogue is a key element.
With fetish videos, you have a girl for x amount of hours unless you are paying her a day rate, which is costly. So dialogue rehearsal is usually out of the question unless it's a simple custom (Trust me, it never is)
But you DO have to spend SOME time on it, so the more dialogue that is in a custom, the longer the shoot. Even with good actresses, they still have to try to get into the character and nail the lines.

And what tommy says is true. Most of us "producers" started off as fans that wanted to see certain niches that weren't available to us from the existing cadre of sites at the time. So we started making our own. Which is MUCH more costly than a $300 - $500 custom.
So when you look at a custom from that viewpoint, it's not so bad.
On top of that, most producers don't charge for their services, so they make some money from the resale of your custom. But again, if your custom is not within the niche of what that producer normally puts out, it's a gamble if it will even sell.

Believe me, no one is knocking it out of the park and tooling around the Riviera in a Bentley lighting cigars with benjamins.
Hope that helps you a bit.

[TIEnTEEZ]

One thing more about ordering a custom: before you write a script, find out how much detail the producer actually wants.

I ordered a 10-minute custom video a couple years back, and I was all ready to produce a full script, but it turned out the producer only wanted a page with a rough outline and maybe a few key lines. They mostly ad-lib their videos, and don't really work from a script.

Yeah, that's a good point. Different producers like different levels of detail. I've send scripts to performer who literally wrote back and said "I don't do scripts." They just want a basic content outline and then they wing it.

Some others will do lots of details and the more you write, the better.

[CustomSuperheroines]

One thing more about ordering a custom: before you write a script, find out how much detail the producer actually wants.

I ordered a 10-minute custom video a couple years back, and I was all ready to produce a full script, but it turned out the producer only wanted a page with a rough outline and maybe a few key lines. They mostly ad-lib their videos, and don't really work from a script.

Yeah, that's a good point. Different producers like different levels of detail. I've send scripts to performer who literally wrote back and said "I don't do scripts." They just want a basic content outline and then they wing it.

Some others will do lots of details and the more you write, the better.

Yup, every producer is different. I used to want lots of details but now I want the least amount of details as possible. The organic-ness of the project is lost when there are too many details to follow - plus if we miss a detail, it's like we didn't do what we agreed to do which makes our day longer and less fun for the actresses.

[badgirlsrule]

Don't expect a masterwork if you're not willing to pay for it. You're using the word masterwork and cheap in the same thread and it's just not possible.

time + scenes + dialogue = money. There's no way around it. I gurantee that if you use one of the producers from this forum, you'll get a good product for your money.

Here's the problem with dialogue. In most other productions, like indie films or mainstream, a lot of time is spent on dialogue in meetings and rehearsals. The dialogue is a key element.
With fetish videos, you have a girl for x amount of hours unless you are paying her a day rate, which is costly. So dialogue rehearsal is usually out of the question unless it's a simple custom (Trust me, it never is)
But you DO have to spend SOME time on it, so the more dialogue that is in a custom, the longer the shoot. Even with good actresses, they still have to try to get into the character and nail the lines.

And what tommy says is true. Most of us "producers" started off as fans that wanted to see certain niches that weren't available to us from the existing cadre of sites at the time. So we started making our own. Which is MUCH more costly than a $300 - $500 custom.
So when you look at a custom from that viewpoint, it's not so bad.
On top of that, most producers don't charge for their services, so they make some money from the resale of your custom. But again, if your custom is not within the niche of what that producer normally puts out, it's a gamble if it will even sell.

Believe me, no one is knocking it out of the park and tooling around the Riviera in a Bentley lighting cigars with benjamins.
Hope that helps you a bit.

You provided some very helpful info.

However you are mixing up different people's replies while referring to one by me !

I certainly used the word 'masterwork' in my last reply,
but I have not used the word 'cheap'.

I don't believe I've ever used the word 'cheap' in any of my replies.
So I thank you to stick to what I have actually written, when commenting
on me.

I bet you're pissed now.

I think you are offended because I said, that I don't expect a custom producer
to produce a masterwork for me. I suspect you feel your film-making skills
have been slighted.

Let's be blunt here.

Apart from the fans who don't want nudity or sex in their superheroine
entertainment here, the majority of the mini-films I have discovered,
are essentially porn clips for people with a superheroine fetish.

Nothing wrong with that; but that's what we are talking about with most
of the content on this forum.

(And shame that isn't reflected in this forum's name, because I had no clue
when I first came here).

But getting back to what I'm talking about:

You said:

"Don't expect a masterwork if you're not willing to pay for it".

Of course that is true. But showering any producer here with money,
is not going to buy me a masterwork by any definition.

There are producers & performers here who have skills;
but nobody here is going to be winning an Oscar anytime soon.

Customs are not features, as several people leapt to tell me
when I first started posting a week ago.

Customs are what they are. And some of them are very good
indeed. But let's not pretend they are more than they are.

Customs are not the medium for producing anybody's masterwork,
no matter how much money they give a producer.

Sorry if that offends anyone but it needs to be said.

[Mr. X]

Did you just come here to argue?

[badgirlsrule]

Did you just come here to argue?

Of course not. Don't you follow what I just said.

I have no desire to "argue" or offend; but I'm not going to take crap from
others either.

Plus I am as entitled as anyone to my views.
Further I think before I speak. I don't just post from my gut.

No doubt what I have written will have all you producers (and acolytes)
gunning for me, but I stand by what I have posted.

You want to disagree. Go ahead. Anybody.

I probably won't respond to the haters; but don't take my silence as defeat.
I never debate with anyone unwilling to see another side.

[Shakeshift]

Plus I am as entitled as anyone to my views.
Further I think before I speak. I don't just post from my gut.

No doubt what I have written will have all you producers (and acolytes)
gunning for me, but I stand by what I have posted.

You want to disagree. Go ahead. Anybody.

I probably won't respond to the haters; but don't take my silence as defeat.
I never debate with anyone unwilling to see another side.

Well at least you're not humble or anything limiting like that. I'm not sure your version of the world could bear the weight of your definition of the word 'acolyte' *or* your somewhat-arrogant definition of what constitutes 'your' custom video.

[Mr. X]

I'm not a hater. Its seems you're breaking up each sentence and complaining about them so I thought you were just looking to argue.

[theScribbler]

Don't expect a masterwork if you're not willing to pay for it. You're using the word masterwork and cheap in the same thread and it's just not possible...

...you are mixing up different people's replies while referring to one by me !

I certainly used the word 'masterwork' in my last reply,
but I have not used the word 'cheap'.

I don't believe I've ever used the word 'cheap' in any of my replies.
So I thank you to stick to what I have actually written, when commenting
on me. ...

You used the word 'cheap' in one of your replies. And you're welcome!

8.There may be exceptions to 2) & 7)
The producer may be able to let you exclusively own the clip/movie;
or shoot your unsellable niche-niche product.. But you will have to
pay an additional fee. And it won't be cheap (see number 1)

You may 'think before you speak' but you sure don't verify! You're not the only one though: Cape_and_Boots meet Logan Cross !

and to this...

...But showering any producer here with money,
is not going to buy me a masterwork by any definition.

There are producers & performers here who have skills;
but nobody here is going to be winning an Oscar anytime soon.

Customs are not features, as several people leapt to tell me
when I first started posting a week ago.

Customs are what they are. And some of them are very good
indeed. But let's not pretend they are more than they are.

Customs are not the medium for producing anybody's masterwork,
no matter how much money they give a producer.

I disagree completely. Limit the silly 'no matter how much money' part to 1 billion dollars, and I still disagree! Give Rye $500 million to work with and a masterwork is very possible, if you allow them to completely rewrite your script!

[CustomSuperheroines]

Don't expect a masterwork if you're not willing to pay for it. You're using the word masterwork and cheap in the same thread and it's just not possible...

...you are mixing up different people's replies while referring to one by me !

I certainly used the word 'masterwork' in my last reply,
but I have not used the word 'cheap'.

I don't believe I've ever used the word 'cheap' in any of my replies.
So I thank you to stick to what I have actually written, when commenting
on me. ...

You used the word 'cheap' in one of your replies. And you're welcome!

8.There may be exceptions to 2) & 7)
The producer may be able to let you exclusively own the clip/movie;
or shoot your unsellable niche-niche product.. But you will have to
pay an additional fee. And it won't be cheap (see number 1)

You may 'think before you speak' but you sure don't verify! You're not the only one though: Cape_and_Boots meet Logan Cross !

and to this...

...But showering any producer here with money,
is not going to buy me a masterwork by any definition.

There are producers & performers here who have skills;
but nobody here is going to be winning an Oscar anytime soon.

Customs are not features, as several people leapt to tell me
when I first started posting a week ago.

Customs are what they are. And some of them are very good
indeed. But let's not pretend they are more than they are.

Customs are not the medium for producing anybody's masterwork,
no matter how much money they give a producer.

I disagree completely. Limit the silly 'no matter how much money' part to 1 billion dollars, and I still disagree! Give Rye $500 million to work with and a masterwork is very possible, if you allow them to completely rewrite your script!

Still a tool. You are one producer who continually mocks another. You understand how that makes you look, right?

[badgirlsrule]

@ thescribbler

Your glee over finding "cheap" in one of my earlier posts, demonstrates a pedantic
& very adolescent mentality on your part. You are a grown up aren't you ??

Ironically, the statement you indicate, is in support of the costs shouldered
by producers, and the work they do.
Do you see that ? Can you try to understand ??

And why are you taking a cheap shot at Logan Cross !!! (See what I did here.. I used "cheap" again). Mr Cross had no part in what I posted. Why did you mock him ? Really ?

While I am here. I want to re-iterate: I have seen some excellent quality work by some of the producers here. There are clearly some very talented producers & performers,
doing very good work. Long may it continue.
As to any hacks here.. I've said everything I want to say.

[DrDominator9]

Oh, sorry. Did you come here for an argument? This is Abuse! Arguments is down the hall.

(Monty Python's line in case anyone missed that reference.)

Just trying to lighten the mood here, guys.

[Alex David]

As an actress/producer who does probably 50% customs to my own productions, I'm finding this thread very interesting.

One thing I wanted to add, if someone ordered a custom from me and was very proud of the work we did together, I have no problems putting his name on it. The profit is what I do the work for, but if you want the credit for writing the script of simply for it being your custom, that's fine with me!

[TIEnTEEZ]

Oh, sorry. Did you come here for an argument? This is Abuse! Arguments is down the hall.

(Monty Python's line in case anyone missed that reference.)

Just trying to lighten the mood here, guys.

No, it's being hit on the head lessons in here.

[badgirlsrule]

Oh, sorry. Did you come here for an argument? This is Abuse! Arguments is down the hall.

(Monty Python's line in case anyone missed that reference.)

Just trying to lighten the mood here, guys.

No, it's being hit on the head lessons in here.

I really don't like feeling I had to hit anyone on the head !
I'd sooner leave the fighting to the superheroines in the movies here
But seems like I'm destined to trade a few blows with certain people.

But thank you DrDominator9 for trying to cool things down

[badgirlsrule]

As an actress/producer who does probably 50% customs to my own productions, I'm finding this thread very interesting.

One thing I wanted to add, if someone ordered a custom from me and was very proud of the work we did together, I have no problems putting his name on it. The profit is what I do the work for, but if you want the credit for writing the script of simply for it being your custom, that's fine with me!

Writers are a sensitive lot. Our ideas, concepts,
characters, stories are precious to us.
I think if a writer has invested a lot creatively in a script;
and it comes out very well, (especially if shot as written)..
a lot of writers would appreciate a credit.

It shows the producer acknowledges the input of the writer
(not just as a partial financere); just as the writer should appreciate
a producer doing such a good job, translating the script.

Writers know that production costs are greater than the custom
fee charged. We know a GOOD producer makes a lot of effort,
and also has to invest themselves..
Their time, energy, contacts, experience, know-how etc

We understand you need to make a profit.
As producers are shouldering the lion's share of the production effort,
that is completely fair and just.

I hope in the future though, the system develops, so that the writer
MAY be able to get a small percentage of the revenues earned
(from the original work).
It may be a small percentage, like 5%.
(I'm just using 5% as an example).

How that could be policed, I don't know.
It would require royalty collectors like in the music industry.

Don't forget if a custom is a hit; the producer will make a nice sum,
not only with the original, but from sequels.

I can accept that. Good luck to the producers who have a
nice franchise.
But it would be nice if we writers got a few peanuts for our
contribution to the original hit.
The production company would still get the lion's share,
and everything for the sequels they finance themselves.

Doesn't that seem a fairer system ?

I think a lot of writers write out of love of a subject, or just the love
of writing. I never personally write anything with the view of making
money from it. Most writers don't think that way.
We just dream of seeing one of our creations take form.
And if a GOOD producer makes that happen, it is a dream
come true; and we love you for it.

It's very hard for a writer to completely give up our creation though,
and have no say at all in future sequels made purely by the
production company. But that is the nature of the beast at
this time.

I just think it would make the entire (little) industry more
professional to have a credit & royality system; that helps to reflect,
just as writers need GOOD producers, producers need GOOD writers.



As an aside..

Why am I not surprised that it is a female producer who
says she has no problem giving writers a credit on her productions ?

In the short time I've been here, I've found women producers to
all be professional, helpful & very easy to talk to. Well done Alex.

[mrestfla]

[CustomSuperheroines]

As an actress/producer who does probably 50% customs to my own productions, I'm finding this thread very interesting.

One thing I wanted to add, if someone ordered a custom from me and was very proud of the work we did together, I have no problems putting his name on it. The profit is what I do the work for, but if you want the credit for writing the script of simply for it being your custom, that's fine with me!

Writers are a sensitive lot. Our ideas, concepts,
characters, stories are precious to us.
I think if a writer has invested a lot creatively in a script;
and it comes out very well, (especially if shot as written)..
a lot of writers would appreciate a credit.

It shows the producer acknowledges the input of the writer
(not just as a partial financere); just as the writer should appreciate
a producer doing such a good job, translating the script.

Writers know that production costs are greater than the custom
fee charged. We know a GOOD producer makes a lot of effort,
and also has to invest themselves..
Their time, energy, contacts, experience, know-how etc

We understand you need to make a profit.
As producers are shouldering the lion's share of the production effort,
that is completely fair and just.

I hope in the future though, the system develops, so that the writer
MAY be able to get a small percentage of the revenues earned
(from the original work).
It may be a small percentage, like 5%.
(I'm just using 5% as an example).

How that could be policed, I don't know.
It would require royalty collectors like in the music industry.

Don't forget if a custom is a hit; the producer will make a nice sum,
not only with the original, but from sequels.

I can accept that. Good luck to the producers who have a
nice franchise.
But it would be nice if we writers got a few peanuts for our
contribution to the original hit.
The production company would still get the lion's share,
and everything for the sequels they finance themselves.

Doesn't that seem a fairer system ?

I think a lot of writers write out of love of a subject, or just the love
of writing. I never personally write anything with the view of making
money from it. Most writers don't think that way.
We just dream of seeing one of our creations take form.
And if a GOOD producer makes that happen, it is a dream
come true; and we love you for it.

It's very hard for a writer to completely give up our creation though,
and have no say at all in future sequels made purely by the
production company. But that is the nature of the beast at
this time.

I just think it would make the entire (little) industry more
professional to have a credit & royality system; that helps to reflect,
just as writers need GOOD producers, producers need GOOD writers.



As an aside..

Why am I not surprised that it is a female producer who
says she has no problem giving writers a credit on her productions ?

In the short time I've been here, I've found women producers to
all be professional, helpful & very easy to talk to. Well done Alex.

I think you're skewing the idea of what a custom order really is. You're saying that if you order a custom, suddenly you are in business with that producer and hired as a screenwriter which couldn't be further from the truth.

A custom buyer is a client requesting a film to include certain parameters. If that buyer wants to provide a script, it actually, at least for me, makes our job much more difficult. That script now becomes part of the agreements instead of just the girl, costume, and elements/scenarios. This means more detail for us to be obligated to follow.

Once you receive your video, the contract is finished. You paid us to create your "perfect film"... But because it's never even close to the actual costs of production, we sell the video to recoup the profits and hope for a profit. Some custom buyers have very broadly accepted fetishes and the film does well. Some have fetishes so specific, that we charge more up front knowing that the film could still potentially be a high risk of loss of capital.

To get your perfect film you hired someone to film then want a profit from sales on top of that is somewhat offensive to the producer who agreed to gamble on creating your film.

If you want to enter this business and receive a profit while creating your dream film, do what every other producer here did: grab a camera, buy a costume, and hire some actors then edit the film and sell it. Then you can hope for the profit from the scripts you write. Just some friendly, yet sage advice that I'm sure every producer on this forum can attest to.

[swampy170]

There's a difference between being a production writer, and writing a script and sending it to a producer and asking them to produce it. This generally involves the re-writing of the script...

There is something to be said for protection of your IP - however if you're handing your script to a producer and asking for a custom do not expect to protect it. For one 99% of the productions use copywritten characters, or thinly veiled copywritten characters.

Put it this way - if DC isn't bothering to persue it, do you think it will be worth your while?

Answer is no FYI.

[badgirlsrule]

As an actress/producer who does probably 50% customs to my own productions, I'm finding this thread very interesting.

One thing I wanted to add, if someone ordered a custom from me and was very proud of the work we did together, I have no problems putting his name on it. The profit is what I do the work for, but if you want the credit for writing the script of simply for it being your custom, that's fine with me!

Writers are a sensitive lot. Our ideas, concepts,
characters, stories are precious to us.
I think if a writer has invested a lot creatively in a script;
and it comes out very well, (especially if shot as written)..
a lot of writers would appreciate a credit.

It shows the producer acknowledges the input of the writer
(not just as a partial financere); just as the writer should appreciate
a producer doing such a good job, translating the script.

Writers know that production costs are greater than the custom
fee charged. We know a GOOD producer makes a lot of effort,
and also has to invest themselves..
Their time, energy, contacts, experience, know-how etc

We understand you need to make a profit.
As producers are shouldering the lion's share of the production effort,
that is completely fair and just.

I hope in the future though, the system develops, so that the writer
MAY be able to get a small percentage of the revenues earned
(from the original work).
It may be a small percentage, like 5%.
(I'm just using 5% as an example).

How that could be policed, I don't know.
It would require royalty collectors like in the music industry.

Don't forget if a custom is a hit; the producer will make a nice sum,
not only with the original, but from sequels.

I can accept that. Good luck to the producers who have a
nice franchise.
But it would be nice if we writers got a few peanuts for our
contribution to the original hit.
The production company would still get the lion's share,
and everything for the sequels they finance themselves.

Doesn't that seem a fairer system ?

I think a lot of writers write out of love of a subject, or just the love
of writing. I never personally write anything with the view of making
money from it. Most writers don't think that way.
We just dream of seeing one of our creations take form.
And if a GOOD producer makes that happen, it is a dream
come true; and we love you for it.

It's very hard for a writer to completely give up our creation though,
and have no say at all in future sequels made purely by the
production company. But that is the nature of the beast at
this time.

I just think it would make the entire (little) industry more
professional to have a credit & royality system; that helps to reflect,
just as writers need GOOD producers, producers need GOOD writers.



As an aside..

Why am I not surprised that it is a female producer who
says she has no problem giving writers a credit on her productions ?

In the short time I've been here, I've found women producers to
all be professional, helpful & very easy to talk to. Well done Alex.

I think you're skewing the idea of what a custom order really is. You're saying that if you order a custom, suddenly you are in business with that producer and hired as a screenwriter which couldn't be further from the truth.

A custom buyer is a client requesting a film to include certain parameters. If that buyer wants to provide a script, it actually, at least for me, makes our job much more difficult. That script now becomes part of the agreements instead of just the girl, costume, and elements/scenarios. This means more detail for us to be obligated to follow.

Once you receive your video, the contract is finished. You paid us to create your "perfect film"... But because it's never even close to the actual costs of production, we sell the video to recoup the profits and hope for a profit. Some custom buyers have very broadly accepted fetishes and the film does well. Some have fetishes so specific, that we charge more up front knowing that the film could still potentially be a high risk of loss of capital.

To get your perfect film you hired someone to film then want a profit from sales on top of that is somewhat offensive to the producer who agreed to gamble on creating your film.

If you want to enter this business and receive a profit while creating your dream film, do what every other producer here did: grab a camera, buy a costume, and hire some actors then edit the film and sell it. Then you can hope for the profit from the scripts you write. Just some friendly, yet sage advice that I'm sure every producer on this forum can attest to.

Are you actually following what you're reading from me?
Do you follow what you are writing ?

You say a custom is an agreement for you to make a film within certain parameters;
but then you say you a producing the customer's "perfect" film. Contract over.

These are completely different definitions of what you do !!!

And I do not imagine paying for a custom is going into business
with a producer. Do try to follow me..

I was primarily discussing the motivations of most writers.

Did you not understand that ??

Or do you just react to the thought of sharing a bit of revenue.
"Yes" would be the answer to that,I suspect.

Don't worry you will never have to think of sharing ANYTHING with me,
because I will NEVER approach you for a custom.

If customs are such a pain for you mighty producers.. DON'T DO THEM !
Think up some ideas of your own and write them yourself.

In the short time I've been here.. I've noticed a similar attitude from
some of you producers: like customs are such a pain for you.

You know what ?
Don't try to baffle me with pseudo legalese about agreements.
I have never heard of another 'industry' that operates under such
a one-side system.

As I carefully explained above; I am prepared to accept much about
the nature of the beast as is. I was merely suggesting THINKING about
the future, because with certainty: the future always brings change.

Don't like that thought ? Don't want to consider a different perspective ?
Don't agree with me ? Don't like me ?

Don't worry..
There is no chance in hell, that I would ever give my money
to a disrespectful, complaining 'producer' like you, or anybody like you.

Hope you can understand that.

[badgirlsrule]

This is the second "reply" you have posted in response to me.
Another stupid picture.

You have way too much time on your hands.

Don't try to engage with me again.
I've checked your previous posts to other people.
I don't like your attitudes. I don't like you.

And unlike you. I actually have the balls to say what I think.

[mrestfla]

[CustomSuperheroines]

@ Cape and Boots: I do wonder why you have posted so many questions on this forum then turn it into a very negative thread. No one is attacking you.

Your question had to do with being the writer of a custom order and then receiving royalties from that script. But that is not what a custom is. I am following everything you say and giving you advice from a producer's standpoint. Not every producer, just one.

If you didn't want the answer or feedback, then I do wonder why you asked the question. No one said customs are a pain in the ass. That was inferred by you. What I stated was that customs are a lot of fun and a big part of what we do, but adhering to a script can be troublesome on our side.

You've never seen this in any other type of business because this isn't like any other type of business. This is a niche. Composed of people with a similar interest. And you are trying to intertwine being a screenwriter with being the buyer of a custom. They are not the same thing. We employ screenwriters. When we get scripts for custom orders, they are 100% of the time rewritten - as another poster above mentioned.

Some of the other guys posting on here are not trying to be a-holes or start a fight as you suggest. They are answering your thread question and for some reason, you are taking offense to it and "arguing" back.

As to your comment of "NEVER" commissioning a film with me - after this thread, I am probably better off. I have never intentionally declined a custom order - it constitutes about 60-70% of the films we create. But with your negative attacks to people simply contributing to your thread, it would be wise not to engage in a custom order with you. Professionally speaking.

Please do not reply with another negative attack towards the producers on this board. This is meant to be a fun, collaborative community and none of us are here to fight or argue with the viewers who support us. Most of us are supportive of each other because we are all here for the same reason - regardless of whether we have a fetish for this market or simply enjoy it in one way or another.