SHIP Golden Age has passed

[SHL]

Damien, it was never my intention to pick a fight with you.

This discussion is mostly moot to my main point: Most current quality producers are featuring a lot of pretty hardcore content in their videos.

Who said it was a fight?

I think you are being a little loose with the term ‘hardcore’ as I am one of the very few hardcore producers in the genre right now. Rye doesn’t shoot hardcore, Lucia has only done one hardcore film and TBFE only has done one hardcore film

That’s what I mean by ‘vague’. Almost all SHIP being produced today is in fact not ‘hardcore’, you are just being vague with how you use terminology to express an opinion over new content vs stuff made almost two decades ago now.

I also think you are being disingenuous with your argument about buying nine of my films. If you CHOOSE to buy NINE films of mine that are clearly LABELED hardcore videos, you can’t then turn around and be wounded the content wasn’t to your liking. My video descriptions have always been very specific to the minute about how much content is hardcore vs not. It’s kind of on you not keep buying content that is obviously not going to be something you enjoy

Especially cause you are then only influencing the content you claim to not like. The films that sell better - dictate where the boat is heading. If you keep buying videos that are labeled ‘hardcore’ while ignoring the content that isn’t - then you are in fact only making sure there is less of the content you want in the market.

If more people were willing to buy content that didn’t feature sex in it - I’d be producing more of it. And quite frankly - I rather people not keeping buying my films if they don’t like the content that’s clearly labeled in them. Exercise restraint.

[Mr. X]

Damien, it was never my intention to pick a fight with you.

This discussion is mostly moot to my main point: Most current quality producers are featuring a lot of pretty hardcore content in their videos.

Who said it was a fight?

I think you are being a little loose with the term ‘hardcore’ as I am one of the very few hardcore producers in the genre right now. Rye doesn’t shoot hardcore, Lucia has only done one hardcore film and TBFE only has done one hardcore film

That’s what I mean by ‘vague’. Almost all SHIP being produced today is in fact not ‘hardcore’, you are just being vague with how you use terminology to express an opinion over new content vs stuff made almost two decades ago now.

I also think you are being disingenuous with your argument about buying nine of my films. If you CHOOSE to buy NINE films of mine that are clearly LABELED hardcore videos, you can’t then turn around and be wounded the content wasn’t to your liking. My video descriptions have always been very specific to the minute about how much content is hardcore vs not. It’s kind of on you not keep buying content that is obviously not going to be something you enjoy

Especially cause you are then only influencing the content you claim to not like. The films that sell better - dictate where the boat is heading. If you keep buying videos that are labeled ‘hardcore’ while ignoring the content that isn’t - then you are in fact only making sure there is less of the content you want in the market.

If more people were willing to buy content that didn’t feature sex in it - I’d be producing more of it. And quite frankly - I rather people not keeping buying my films if they don’t like the content that’s clearly labeled in them. Exercise restraint.

Yeah I would have loved Paris Roxanne (or whatever he name is now, Dylan?) in some hard core shenanigans. Or even topless.

[Mr. X]

As someone who sells fetish films I can say this - there have been a couple notable names in the 'industry' who have bought my work in the last 14 years. And there have been a couple eye bulging moments when watching Hollywood films that lead me to believe there is direct correlated influence we have had.

I've felt the same about a couple comic book/TV authors as well that had concepts and dialogue that feel heavily inspired by things I've created. I think we'd be surprised at how many big names lurk about in our orbit. I'm honestly flattered when I see my stuff borrowed in our little ShiP community because they're just being influenced by my fanfiction, and most likely supporting my campaigns, but when I spot things in corporate comics and TV I'm like...

I love your stuff. That Wonder Woman and the goblins thing was great.

[Mr. X]

Don't knock capitalism, it's what leads to almost all innovation and new ideas.

Where were the great superheroines created in a capitalist country, how about the web. How about the devices were on.

And if we get to the pont where we can have real vr where we can tie up Wonderwoman or Batgirl and it feels real it will be from a capitalist,

I think the term was late stage capitalism... companies that get so huge they are just propped up dinosaurs that should just collapse. And they mostly get in the way. Deep pockets to buy people out then sit on the IPs. Video game industry suffers from this.

[Mr. X]

The 'Model Pool' is complicated.

I do think in fact - there are a decent amount of performers who are no longer hirable due to the success of their OF accounts (Alina Lopez being a good example). But I don't think this is the primary reason for a 'model drought' as you could argue OF has converted more women into sex work than converted sex workers into exclusive producers of their own content. If anything I imagine OF becoming more normalized to our society has probably created a landslide of potential new talent to work with as more young women will feel more comfortable exploring the sex work industry, who ten years ago socially wouldn't risk the backlash.

I did have more issues with adult stars than fetish girls. The adult stars either couldn't understand the content or just expected to lay and do a sex scene. They didn't like to act. The fetish girls were great, played the parts, but when it came to any naughty stuff that had limited options. One adult star I had to keep saying no sex to. "I have my papers. we could do a sex scene". We were trying to avoid any adult porn rating and quiet frankly I am not a healthy specimen of manliness.

Also the adult stars seemed to be high most of the time. One girl brought her boyfriend who was apparently high on something and kept screaming "my girl's going to be a superheroine" in the airport. Then again one of the fetish girls was talking out loud on how to do chloroform scenes while we were buying her some food in the grocery store.

Oh those were the days.

[SHL]

I did have more issues with adult stars than fetish girls. The adult stars either couldn't understand the content or just expected to lay and do a sex scene. They didn't like to act. The fetish girls were great, played the parts, but when it came to any naughty stuff that had limited options. One adult star I had to keep saying no sex to. "I have my papers. we could do a sex scene". We were trying to avoid any adult porn rating and quiet frankly I am not a healthy specimen of manliness.

Also the adult stars seemed to be high most of the time. One girl brought her boyfriend who was apparently high on something and kept screaming "my girl's going to be a superheroine" in the airport. Then again one of the fetish girls was talking out loud on how to do chloroform scenes while we were buying her some food in the grocery store.

Oh those were the days.

Fetish models who don't do hardcore scenes always work harder than porn actresses who do hardcore. I get it though - one is use to being paid specifically to engage in sex and the other is being paid to do everything but sex. But both are being hired for the same reason - to induce sexual stimulation. In fetish work only - the amount of work required to create sexual stimulation without sex is always going to be significantly more than just grabbing a nob and stroking it. "Can you get me off but not touch my dick?"

Fetish models also routinely have to be more creative to get the job done. I think in the long term constantly exercising your creative muscles is more rewarding work. You see more people quitting porn than you see them quitting fetish. Or at least thats how it has appeared to me.

[Femina]

Don't knock capitalism, it's what leads to almost all innovation and new ideas.

Where were the great superheroines created in a capitalist country, how about the web. How about the devices were on.

And if we get to the pont where we can have real vr where we can tie up Wonderwoman or Batgirl and it feels real it will be from a capitalist,

This is nonsense. Capitalism doesn't lead to all innovation and new ideas, it leads to competition up to and including the middle phase, which is conducive to new ideas, but the end result of capitalism is exactly what we're living right now, everything being the same and no one with the flexibility to innovate. The competitive aspect of Capitalism is the ONLY part of it that is conducive to innovation, and as soon as that competition no longer matters, all that matters is making enough money to survive. Everyone is just surviving now. Even corporations are only just surviving, because they've propped themselves up on this INSANE platform wherein they need to keep making 'increasing' profits or die horribly... if they'd just set the system up a little differently they'd be able to just be happy with their LUDICROUS profits in perpetuity (though that would additionally lead to laziness and stagnation, just a different route to a lack of innovation) but don't give me the bullhoey that Capitalism is being innovative right now, it's NOT. All we're doing is iterating on what's already there, and VERY slowly, (VR isn't new, it's been around conceptually and functionally since I was a CHILD. I put a headset on and played 'SIN' at an arcade when I was like.... 12, and we're only JUST NOW really finally delving into the 'VR' headset in earnest)

Capitalism leads to people trying to make money, period, by whatever means possible. There was a period in there where the best means by which to do that WAS innovation, absolutely, but those days are gone.





Side note, I genuinely find this conversation about porn actors vs fetish actors to be very interesting. As a venue I've never experienced anything in, it's stuff that makes sense to me on a fundamental level as y'all describe it.

[HeroineTard]

This is just my personal opinion, but it's been a very very long time since a western production has made me drop the suspension of disbelief just for a moment and made me think "OH wow, that's actually Wonder Woman or Supergirl getting humiliated! This could have been a long lost unaired episode!" versus "OH that's actress X playing around in fetish costume."

I think this has to do with the hyper sexualized costumes as well as porno-like tone and focus in many productions.

I'd personally like to see something that feels more like an actual episode of Electra Woman. Somewhat campy but still in the same tone as the original show, just with a bit of peril and humiliation added in.

I suppose I'm probably the odd man out and this isn't for everyone.

[Mr. X]

This is nonsense. Capitalism doesn't lead to all innovation and new ideas

Let's not argue this stuff.

[Ernie]

I think you are being a little loose with the term ‘hardcore’ as I am one of the very few hardcore producers in the genre right now. Rye doesn’t shoot hardcore, Lucia has only done one hardcore film and TBFE only has done one hardcore film

That’s what I mean by ‘vague’. Almost all SHIP being produced today is in fact not ‘hardcore’, you are just being vague with how you use terminology to express an opinion over new content vs stuff made almost two decades ago now.

Dude, you are very thin-skinned and very literal. How many times have I complimented you in this thread? I've spent a couple of hundred bucks on your videos. All I did was quote you as an example of a producer who puts out videos that are more sexually explicit that what the norm was earlier. I have gone out of my way to stress how good your productions are. I've admitted to buying many of them. What do I get? Abuse. I never said I was "wounded" by purchasing your work. I went in eyes open, understanding that I was getting content I didn't want. I explicitly said I bought them on sale to offset the the fact that I was getting stuff that didn't appeal to me. I did that because of the dearth of content that did appeal to me. I'm not unhappy with my purchases. I just don't watch the stuff in them that I don't enjoy.

I never said anything about two decades ago. Maybe others did, but I didn't. As for "hardcore", you're being very semantic about a term I'm obviously using in a more general way. Anyone reading this thread without prejudice will understand that. Frankly, I'm astonished that you are giving me grief about buying your videos. I only bought them on sale, and only because there was so little else that appealed to my tastes. And by your account I'm perpetuating the problem? Well fuck you. You've lost a desperate, reluctant customer.

[SHL]

Dude, you are very thin-skinned and very literal. How many times have I complimented you in this thread? I've spent a couple of hundred bucks on your videos. All I did was quote you as an example of a producer who puts out videos that are more sexually explicit that what the norm was earlier. I have gone out of my way to stress how good your productions are. I've admitted to buying many of them. What do I get? Abuse. I never said I was "wounded" by purchasing your work. I went in eyes open, understanding that I was getting content I didn't want. I explicitly said I bought them on sale to offset the the fact that I was getting stuff that didn't appeal to me. I did that because of the dearth of content that did appeal to me. I'm not unhappy with my purchases. I just don't watch the stuff in them that I don't enjoy.

I never said anything about two decades ago. Maybe others did, but I didn't. As for "hardcore", you're being very semantic about a term I'm obviously using in a more general way. Anyone reading this thread without prejudice will understand that. Frankly, I'm astonished that you are giving me grief about buying your videos. I only bought them on sale, and only because there was so little else that appealed to my tastes. And by your account I'm perpetuating the problem? Well fuck you. You've lost a desperate, reluctant customer.

First you think it’s a fight and now you think you are being abused by reply, yet… I’m the one who is thinned skinned?

You should know I’m typing this with the most overwhelming feeling in my body being my bloods reaction to the sugar in the tea I’m drinking. I am not emotionally affected by anything you have said in this thread thus far

I think it’s fair… on a forum about Superheroine fetish… when talking about supeheroine porn… that using the term “hardcore” will never be taken as a ‘general way’. You kind of have to be literal, especially when addressing the history of content and how it has changed

I think it’s an interesting idea - The Golden Era and trying to define when that was and why that’s changed.

Yet, mostly what I’ve gathered is you just don’t like new videos cause you have romanticized the past. And I’m sorry but we are talking about two decades… a decade ago ‘2013’ etc - almost all major producers in the genre were already producing the kind of content you claim you don’t like. The genre was different between 2004-2009 which was in the 13-20 years ago.

I don’t mind losing you as a customer. It sounds like you have been unhappy with what you bought anyway. You said it yourself - I am very ‘literal’ so I’m surprised you’ve projected me to be someone who is abusing you with lightly pushing back on a conversation you decided to start on a forum to open up a conversation.

I take it you were just looking for people to agree with you, as hardly anything I have said is me attempting to “attack” you. I’d urge you to not try to start conversations on forums if you can’t handle an opinion that isn’t yours, especially from someone whom work you were judging as “too extreme” for your taste. People are out here regularly selling films where supeheroines are shot to death, so yes - I’d like to argue I’m not really that ‘extreme’.

I’m sure when you read this you’ll think I attacked you again, maybe you’ll feel abused; or think that I’m walking around looking like bloody muscles with no skin. But this is me… not even pulling punches cause I’m not throwing them… more amused than anything else… literally just using logic to lightly challenge… someone who posted criticism of the hard work this genres directors produce… because you are bored of what we have to offer

At the very least - I read and humor the opinions of people who take the time to share their opinion on the work itself. I think there’s a value in that. Your reaction to what I had to say make me empathize with those of us who have stopped reading comments altogether

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

With love,

DW

[Dazzle1]

Don't knock capitalism, it's what leads to almost all innovation and new ideas.

Where were the great superheroines created in a capitalist country, how about the web. How about the devices were on.

And if we get to the pont where we can have real vr where we can tie up Wonderwoman or Batgirl and it feels real it will be from a capitalist,

This is nonsense. Capitalism doesn't lead to all innovation and new ideas, it leads to competition up to and including the middle phase, which is conducive to new ideas, but the end result of capitalism is exactly what we're living right now, everything being the same and no one with the flexibility to innovate. The competitive aspect of Capitalism is the ONLY part of it that is conducive to innovation, and as soon as that competition no longer matters, all that matters is making enough money to survive. Everyone is just surviving now. Even corporations are only just surviving, because they've propped themselves up on this INSANE platform wherein they need to keep making 'increasing' profits or die horribly... if they'd just set the system up a little differently they'd be able to just be happy with their LUDICROUS profits in perpetuity (though that would additionally lead to laziness and stagnation, just a different route to a lack of innovation) but don't give me the bullhoey that Capitalism is being innovative right now, it's NOT. All we're doing is iterating on what's already there, and VERY slowly, (VR isn't new, it's been around conceptually and functionally since I was a CHILD. I put a headset on and played 'SIN' at an arcade when I was like.... 12, and we're only JUST NOW really finally delving into the 'VR' headset in earnest)

Capitalism leads to people trying to make money, period, by whatever means possible. There was a period in there where the best means by which to do that WAS innovation, absolutely, but those days are gone.

-------------------

To answer that, Jobs, Gates, Musk even Dorsey are all capitalists

Earlier age when the railroads were built it was James J Hill and EH Harriman

[Dazzle1]

This is just my personal opinion, but it's been a very very long time since a western production has made me drop the suspension of disbelief just for a moment and made me think "OH wow, that's actually Wonder Woman or Supergirl getting humiliated! This could have been a long lost unaired episode!" versus "OH that's actress X playing around in fetish costume."

I think this has to do with the hyper sexualized costumes as well as porno-like tone and focus in many productions.

I'd personally like to see something that feels more like an actual episode of Electra Woman. Somewhat campy but still in the same tone as the original show, just with a bit of peril and humiliation added in.

I suppose I'm probably the odd man out and this isn't for everyone.

It's several years old now but if you want to see Campy Electra Woman, Christina Cater produced a few. It would have been great if they took the best episode of the show when Dyna Girl becomes evil and have a bdsm version for us.

[Dazzle1]

Things to do change with SHIP and PORN

Early on SHIP has women tied in bonage but otther than some fondiling and maybe a vibrator very little sexual content, at the time other than hardcore fetish tended to be more into pain, torture(real not sexual) and ridicolous bondage postions(which King still does)

For me the Golden Age, was where there was sex, some bdsm, good costumes, but not where the violence showed actual scarring.

[Dazzle1]

Things to do change with SHIP and PORN

Early on SHIP has women tied in bonage but other than some fondiling and maybe a vibrator very little sexual content, at the time other than hardcore fetish tended to be more into pain, torture(real not sexual) and ridicolous bondage postions(which Kink still does)

For me the Golden Age, was where there was sex, some bdsm, good costumes, but not where the violence showed actual scarring.

[Ernie]

"mostly what I’ve gathered is you just don’t like new videos cause you have romanticized the past."

No, I haven't romanticized the past. You keep doing that - ascribing things to me that aren't true. I stated facts about earlier videos. That there were many more videos that were more peril-centered and less rapey. I've been trying to avoid using the R word because I dislike it and what it connotes. Many of us SHIP fans have misgivings about our little niche. I like heroines facing peril. Part of that is the prospect of villains having their way with a heroine if they manage to defeat her. But for me, the threat of being taken is the exciting part. Watching it happen for 15 minutes is not. For me that crosses the line between fantasy and reality. Watching four guys feel up a subdued Supergirl is great for me. Watching them screw her for half a video is the opposite. Years ago there were many videos being produced that suited my taste for less rape-centered content. Now they are much more rare. That isn't me remembering the past as some wonderful, problem free panacea. There's no romanticizing going on.

"I don’t mind losing you as a customer. It sounds like you have been unhappy with what you bought anyway."

Again, I never said I was unhappy with what I bought. Never said it, never implied it. You fabricated that out of thin air. I bought your videos for the initial heroine/villain battles. That's the content I enjoy. I bought them during sales to lessen the impact of paying for the last half or two thirds of the videos, which had content I don't enjoy. You just chose to ignore what I said and put words in my mouth that bolstered your position.

"I’d urge you to not try to start conversations on forums if you can’t handle an opinion that isn’t yours,"

I have zero problems with differing opinions. I do have a problem with people mischaracterizing my opinions to make their own points. You may be the very model of dispassionality, but calmly fabricating stuff about me doesn't make it any righter.

[GWalb]

'Golden Ages" always exist in the past as seen through rose-colored glasses. No one ever says:
"Gee I'm living in a Golden Age."

[arkane]

Things to do change with SHIP and PORN

Early on SHIP has women tied in bonage but otther than some fondiling and maybe a vibrator very little sexual content, at the time other than hardcore fetish tended to be more into pain, torture(real not sexual) and ridicolous bondage postions(which King still does)

For me the Golden Age, was where there was sex, some bdsm, good costumes, but not where the violence showed actual scarring.

I think everyone has his own "Golden Age" depending on his tastes. For me, some of the older producers (Darla Crane, Anton video etc.) were doing the good stuff... with peril, bondage, and sexy heroines. The good old days.

Then, more recently, new producers started to offer videos with good quality, sometimes very good production values, and incredible actresses, but the material you could more often see was a group of crooks ganging up on a woman and beating the shit out of her, or porn scenes if this was the Golden Age, what a waste.

[Ernie]

No one ever says:
"Gee I'm living in a Golden Age."

Sure they do. I see it all the time. I've done it myself regarding our little genre, just not recently.

[Femina]

To answer that, Jobs, Gates, Musk even Dorsey are all capitalists

Earlier age when the railroads were built it was James J Hill and EH Harriman

These are NOT the examples you think they are. Jobs and Gates made everything they ever got STEALING from other people... not innovating it themselves. Jobs did much better about it when he recovered from getting his ass beat in the game of corporate fuckery by Gates and brought about the iphone, which is just majorly an itteration of the computers he was already familiar with... but you're still missing the point, Jobs and Gates heyday wasn't the 'late stage' capitalism we live in, they BROUGHT us to it. The Iphone isn't an invention intended to push us into the bright future, all its benefits are cultural and social 'bonuses/pitfalls', its primary function is and always has been to make it easier and easier for us to buy things we don't need (like a new iphone every single year). Elon Musk isn't ever going to get us to mars, that's just the poster to keep his stock price up while he dicks around with his quest to be 'super cool and popular' His self driving vehicles are the WORST self driving vehicles on the market having already killed as many people BECAUSE of the things as would have crashed naturally on their own. The things that get invented by Capitalism are ONLY what will make the most money possible... not what's best for people. Need proof of this look at the American medical situation. We haven't invented a cure for ANYTHING we can just create a 'perpetual' treatment for. Capitalism only leads to a very narrow road of innovation EARLY, and now it's settled in, finished its nest, and we're the worms the Bird is feeding to its young.

At least the railroads got BUILT, in EARLY stage capitalism! But where is the upkeep now? Our infrastructure is falling apart because it's not 'profitable' to repair them in the short term and it ONLY ever gets fixed after it breaks. THATS Capitalism... we fix it when it impacts our profits. Building the railroads was an undertaking, they connected the east and west coast and yeah... they did it for MONEY cause connecting all those people lead to better profits, but this was EARLY stage capitalism, the SIDE benefit of these MASSIVE undertakings remained equally useful for everyone in other avenues. Today that just isn't the case. it's ALL about the money. If a corporation invents something, it's only so that you can keep paying into it. It won't change or improve your life drastically and more often than not it's tailored down to its functionality to MAINTAIN the status quo of whatever economic circle it's been invented for. That isn't 'the mother if innovation' REAL innovation is rapid, continual progression that does not stop and start based on whose getting paid. Real innovation doesn't encourage pyramid and get rich quick schemes. Real innovation progresses the SPECIES not just how well the species makes billionaires richer.

All Capitalism does, is encourage you to do whatever it takes to get more money. That's it, when the way to do that was to innovate, we did it. When the way to do that is to cheat, we do it. When the way to do that is to ensure that sick people REMAIN sick but just 'alive' enough to keep paying for treatment we do that too. It's not improving our lives, and it hasn't been improving our lives for decades.

[sugarcoater]

To answer that, Jobs, Gates, Musk even Dorsey are all capitalists

Earlier age when the railroads were built it was James J Hill and EH Harriman

These are NOT the examples you think they are. Jobs and Gates made everything they ever got STEALING from other people... not innovating it themselves. Jobs did much better about it when he recovered from getting his ass beat in the game of corporate fuckery by Gates and brought about the iphone, which is just majorly an itteration of the computers he was already familiar with... but you're still missing the point, Jobs and Gates heyday wasn't the 'late stage' capitalism we live in, they BROUGHT us to it. The Iphone isn't an invention intended to push us into the bright future, all its benefits are cultural and social 'bonuses/pitfalls', its primary function is and always has been to make it easier and easier for us to buy things we don't need (like a new iphone every single year). Elon Musk isn't ever going to get us to mars, that's just the poster to keep his stock price up while he dicks around with his quest to be 'super cool and popular' His self driving vehicles are the WORST self driving vehicles on the market having already killed as many people BECAUSE of the things as would have crashed naturally on their own. The things that get invented by Capitalism are ONLY what will make the most money possible... not what's best for people. Need proof of this look at the American medical situation. We haven't invented a cure for ANYTHING we can just create a 'perpetual' treatment for. Capitalism only leads to a very narrow road of innovation EARLY, and now it's settled in, finished its nest, and we're the worms the Bird is feeding to its young.

At least the railroads got BUILT, in EARLY stage capitalism! But where is the upkeep now? Our infrastructure is falling apart because it's not 'profitable' to repair them in the short term and it ONLY ever gets fixed after it breaks. THATS Capitalism... we fix it when it impacts our profits. Building the railroads was an undertaking, they connected the east and west coast and yeah... they did it for MONEY cause connecting all those people lead to better profits, but this was EARLY stage capitalism, the SIDE benefit of these MASSIVE undertakings remained equally useful for everyone in other avenues. Today that just isn't the case. it's ALL about the money. If a corporation invents something, it's only so that you can keep paying into it. It won't change or improve your life drastically and more often than not it's tailored down to its functionality to MAINTAIN the status quo of whatever economic circle it's been invented for. That isn't 'the mother if innovation' REAL innovation is rapid, continual progression that does not stop and start based on whose getting paid. Real innovation doesn't encourage pyramid and get rich quick schemes. Real innovation progresses the SPECIES not just how well the species makes billionaires richer.

All Capitalism does, is encourage you to do whatever it takes to get more money. That's it, when the way to do that was to innovate, we did it. When the way to do that is to cheat, we do it. When the way to do that is to ensure that sick people REMAIN sick but just 'alive' enough to keep paying for treatment we do that too. It's not improving our lives, and it hasn't been improving our lives for decades.

Seems like you’re defining capitalism in a specific manner to suit your argument. My sense has always been that capitalism is a simply the opportunity to sell one’s goods and services to whom ever they want at whatever price they want. Anything else is a form of intervention not associated with capitalism. The problem is a government will have to impose itself on capitalism, which creates all sorts of headaches, problems and corruption. But capitalism itself is just the exchange of goods and services between willing parties. That’s it. What you seem to be doing is describing how capitalism is manipulated, but you’re not describing capitalism.

[Ernie]

capitalism is a simply the opportunity to sell one’s goods and services to whom ever they want at whatever price they want.

Yeah, that's pretty innocuous sounding as a sterile definition. The problem is the application. Unfettered capitalism inevitably leads to monopoly, the stifling of innovation, increasing prices and decreasing worker rights. It played out in the U.S. in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and again in Russia after the USSR failed. Government MUST intervene to ward off these undesirable outcomes.

[Femina]

Seems like you’re defining capitalism in a specific manner to suit your argument. My sense has always been that capitalism is a simply the opportunity to sell one’s goods and services to whom ever they want at whatever price they want. Anything else is a form of intervention not associated with capitalism. The problem is a government will have to impose itself on capitalism, which creates all sorts of headaches, problems and corruption. But capitalism itself is just the exchange of goods and services between willing parties. That’s it. What you seem to be doing is describing how capitalism is manipulated, but you’re not describing capitalism.

No, come on now, don't give me that narrow descriptive silliness. We're WATCHING it happen around us as we speak. I am aware of the 'definition' of Capitalism. I'm not talking about the idyllic fantasy of what Capitalism COULD be in a perfect harmonious world where everyone shares hugs and rainbows, gets along and have no intention of hurting one another ever for any reason... I'm talking about what it IS, factually, as it's mechanisms churn in the real world, in the hands of real people. More specifically I'm talking about what it INSPIRES, and it does NOT inspire selling one's goods and services at cost... it inspires making money, at. any. cost. The LESS you have to produce to get it, and the more you can charge for it the better. That doesn't inspire innovation, which is the whole point of the conversation. Definitions help us define things at their core principles, and I'll GIVE you that at it's defined core Capitalism is as fine and dandy as ANY system with ideals toward helping average people get what they need to survive. But like SO MANY systems before it, it's failing for the same reason all other's have failed. In my opinion it's time to try something new so that we can at least get that polite 'honeymoon' period of new philosophy whereby people are too busy working out how to live in the system rather than working out how to fuck everyone else with it.

[Mr. X]

Can we stick to the golden days of SHIP please. (why the hell am I the voice of reason for fuck sake)

[Femina]

Can we stick to the golden days of SHIP please.

Yes, as soon as the simping over Capitalism ends.

xD

No I'm done. You're right, it's just circles. I won't engage with it anymore.

I DO feel we never really know what's coming around the corner. There could always be a second Golden Age. We never know.

[Mr. X]

I'd personally like to see something that feels more like an actual episode of Electra Woman. Somewhat campy but still in the same tone as the original show, just with a bit of peril and humiliation added in.

Hollywood and Stacy Burke make videos like that dressed like those kinds of characters. Plus I believe our own Hypnotic made videos with these kinds of characters.

[bushwackerbob]

For me, the golden age of SHIP has passed because of the paucity of new, original, and compelling ideas. I do understand that the business models for most of these SHIP companies has always been customs, but I think if this fledgling industry is to survive and evolve, it has to get away from deriving their content from average folks with money to spend on customs. It just seems like depending on folks with money for outside the box ideas, cool, and compelling content is a confounding aspect to me. Let creative professionals create their own content and we will get better SHIP films in my view. You put content in the hands of average people financially motivated to see their visions in a SHIP film, it is unlikely in my view that we will see outside the box, compelling, or unique content.

[Femina]

For me, the golden age of SHIP has passed because of the paucity of new, original, and compelling ideas. I do understand that the business models for most of these SHIP companies has always been customs, but I think if this fledgling industry is to survive and evolve, it has to get away from deriving their content from average folks with money to spend on customs. It just seems like depending on folks with money for outside the box ideas, cool, and compelling content is a confounding aspect to me. Let creative professionals create their own content and we will get better SHIP films in my view. You put content in the hands of average people financially motivated to see their visions in a SHIP film, it is unlikely in my view that we will see outside the box, compelling, or unique content.

This is a good point. No one was obsessed with Wonder Woman being chloroformed before it happened, absent their input, in front of their eyes on television. Customs have their place of course, I'm not going to get on a soap box and tell producers 'You're dumb for doing customs!!!' or some ridiculous things... or telling people with the money and interest from using their money however they want... but I mean, this goes back to the "Bare legs vs leggings' situation just a few topics over right? If ALL you ever watch is superheroines who don't wear hose, you're cutting yourself off from 50% (at least) of the industry and not digesting potential new concepts and ideas that might also be in those videos. Maybe somewhere out there is the EXACT leggings style for you and you'll never find it cause you cut yourself off from observing it............ I'm no fuckin different! I literally have zero interest in French maids and sexy nurses etc. if there isn't a superheroine in it, I don't care... but It's more than conceivable that somewhere out there are other fetishes I MIGHT enjoy if I was actively consuming ANYTHING else.

In fact this can be said about a LOT of elements of the fetish. We commonly talk about how 'picky' the viewers are. We're cagey about purchasing a video because 'Do her eyes roll up into her head when she's being chloroformed in this one? I don't wanna buy it if they don't!?' and just imagine if we felt that way about... ANYTHING else really? What would our entertainment industry look like if it was ONLY any good if it was 100% precisely tailored to our tastes? EVERY medium would be as niche as our own. No one would be able to get particularly 'successful' and everyone would be haggling over small sectors of interest. The flip side is.... it's EXPENSIVE to consume niche media. SOME Ship videos can cost as much as a videogame these days while we can usually watch a new Marvel film on Disney Plus on a random family member's account for free... it simply would never be profitable for producers to just produce whatever floats their boat in this industry and consume all of it patiently waiting for something in it to speak to you. So we're picky... and it makes producers jobs more difficult, thus more expensive, thus tailored for what they hope will sell.

*Mumblegrumbles* Something about Capitalism being antithetical to true art *mumblegrumbles*

[bushwackerbob]

I wish we had more SHIP films based on the wildly brilliant and creative writers and stories that our little community is blessed with having. There is such a diversity of stories and scenarios in SHIP fiction, a treasure trove really, but our SHIP films rarely if ever rise to that SHIP fiction level of brilliance and creativity. All it would take is adapting and retrofitting these stories, taking that brilliant kernel of a scenario and shaping that idea into something a SHIP producer can affordably and logistically produce.

I totally agree with your point Femina, we are a particularly fussy, discerning bunch, but I wonder if it is a chicken or the egg thing, are SHIP films so expensive because we are picky and fussy about what we like and what we will pay for in a SHIP film, or are we more discerning because these films are so comparably more expensive and we want to make sure we get our bang for our buck. It is probably a little bit of both.

[SHL]

I wish we had more SHIP films based on the wildly brilliant and creative writers and stories that our little community is blessed with having. There is such a diversity of stories and scenarios in SHIP fiction, a treasure trove really, but our SHIP films rarely if ever rise to that SHIP fiction level of brilliance and creativity. All it would take is adapting and retrofitting these stories, taking that brilliant kernel of a scenario and shaping that idea into something a SHIP producer can affordably and logistically produce.

I totally agree with your point Femina, we are a particularly fussy, discerning bunch, but I wonder if it is a chicken or the egg thing, are SHIP films so expensive because we are picky and fussy about what we like and what we will pay for in a SHIP film, or are we more discerning because these films are so comparably more expensive and we want to make sure we get our bang for our buck. It is probably a little bit of both.

I’m always irked whenever people think that the fan fictions / stories written in the forums have any conceivable reality of being converted into good fetish films. Most of them would require a budget that’s 5-10x what a higher end producer is currently spending on their films.

If a “story” can’t fit into ten pages of a properly formatted screenplay - it ain’t happening.

All this fan fair about the brilliance of these stories almost has nothing to do with film itself. All the intricate details and inner thoughts don’t convert to film. Look up any Hollywood script and they look rather paltry in comparison to a novel.

Films a visual medium. None of these stories are written that way.

Cost of films

You are correct, it’s a chicken and egg thing. “SHIP films so expensive because we are picky and fussy about what we like and what we will pay for in a SHIP film” - this is true.

If 4x the amount of people were willing to buy my films I could easily and dramatically lower the price. Hell, if I could hit specific target markers in profit - I’d even be willing to make the film a free download after the community essentially ‘bought’ the film itself. But there is no way to get that many people, in volume, all agree to pay a set amount and actually see them follow through.

I’ve learned the hard way that more people are willing to vote to buy something than people are willing to actually do it. I tried to crowd fund the production cost for Batgirl: The Prison through a public vote and poll system to select the kind of content the film would have - tons and tons of people voted. Like… 10-20 people preordered. It was an utter failure in crowd funding. I made it anyway and people loved it

Some years ago my original film “Uninvited” hit that profit point having been out for over a decade - and I gave away 500 free downloads of the film. I say this as a reminder that I’ve done it before so people don’t read this and think I’m full of shit.

The irony though - is you could never get 1000+ people in this niche to agree to pay $10-$30 bucks to make a film free for everyone - cause the conversation would die in an argument over what content would be featured. “Pantyhose!” “Nude legs!” “Rape!” “No pleas almost rape her! Rape is too much!!!” “Why can’t she enjoy it?!” “She’s too thick!” “She’s too thin!”

The more specific this audiences taste becomes the more expensive the films get. That’s how volume of sales works

[bushwackerbob]

I wish we had more SHIP films based on the wildly brilliant and creative writers and stories that our little community is blessed with having. There is such a diversity of stories and scenarios in SHIP fiction, a treasure trove really, but our SHIP films rarely if ever rise to that SHIP fiction level of brilliance and creativity. All it would take is adapting and retrofitting these stories, taking that brilliant kernel of a scenario and shaping that idea into something a SHIP producer can affordably and logistically produce.

I totally agree with your point Femina, we are a particularly fussy, discerning bunch, but I wonder if it is a chicken or the egg thing, are SHIP films so expensive because we are picky and fussy about what we like and what we will pay for in a SHIP film, or are we more discerning because these films are so comparably more expensive and we want to make sure we get our bang for our buck. It is probably a little bit of both.

I’m always irked whenever people think that the fan fictions / stories written in the forums have any conceivable reality of being converted into good fetish films. Most of them would require a budget that’s 5-10x what a higher end producer is currently spending on their films.

If a “story” can’t fit into ten pages of a properly formatted screenplay - it ain’t happening.

All this fan fair about the brilliance of these stories almost has nothing to do with film itself. All the intricate details and inner thoughts don’t convert to film. Look up any Hollywood script and they look rather paltry in comparison to a novel.

Films a visual medium. None of these stories are written that way.

Cost of films

You are correct, it’s a chicken and egg thing. “SHIP films so expensive because we are picky and fussy about what we like and what we will pay for in a SHIP film” - this is true.

If 4x the amount of people were willing to buy my films I could easily and dramatically lower the price. Hell, if I could hit specific target markers in profit - I’d even be willing to make the film a free download after the community essentially ‘bought’ the film itself. But there is no way to get that many people, in volume, all agree to pay a set amount and actually see them follow through.

I’ve learned the hard way that more people are willing to vote to buy something than people are willing to actually do it. I tried to crowd fund the production cost for Batgirl: The Prison through a public vote and poll system to select the kind of content the film would have - tons and tons of people voted. Like… 10-20 people preordered. It was an utter failure in crowd funding. I made it anyway and people loved it

Some years ago my original film “Uninvited” hit that profit point having been out for over a decade - and I gave away 500 free downloads of the film. I say this as a reminder that I’ve done it before so people don’t read this and think I’m full of shit.

The irony though - is you could never get 1000+ people in this niche to agree to pay $10-$30 bucks to make a film free for everyone - cause the conversation would die in an argument over what content would be featured. “Pantyhose!” “Nude legs!” “Rape!” “No pleas almost rape her! Rape is too much!!!” “Why can’t she enjoy it?!” “She’s too thick!” “She’s too thin!”

The more specific this audiences taste becomes the more expensive the films get. That’s how volume of sales works

I just loved your original Uninvited film, it was tremendous. Rye took inspiration, a germ of an idea from SHIP fiction story, Rye adapted, took inspiration from and turned it into "Enthusiastic Participation: Reigns of Terror", and it is one of my favorite SHIP films ever. That is an example of how one adapts and strips down a story in order to make a first rate film. For me, it's the germ of the idea that makes SHIP films and stories great, not as much the trappings, production values, state of the art camera angles, yes, that stuff is cool, but it is the story that makes the film, and I think there is a treasure trove of SHIP fiction that can be mined for SHIP films inspiration, much in the way Rye did for his Enthusiastic Participation films. It can be done.

[Dazzle1]

I wish we had more SHIP films based on the wildly brilliant and creative writers and stories that our little community is blessed with having. There is such a diversity of stories and scenarios in SHIP fiction, a treasure trove really, but our SHIP films rarely if ever rise to that SHIP fiction level of brilliance and creativity. All it would take is adapting and retrofitting these stories, taking that brilliant kernel of a scenario and shaping that idea into something a SHIP producer can affordably and logistically produce.

I totally agree with your point Femina, we are a particularly fussy, discerning bunch, but I wonder if it is a chicken or the egg thing, are SHIP films so expensive because we are picky and fussy about what we like and what we will pay for in a SHIP film, or are we more discerning because these films are so comparably more expensive and we want to make sure we get our bang for our buck. It is probably a little bit of both.

Someone earlier said that he enjoyed stories more than video because there was more that could be done

It's a good point, there are several stories on literotica that if people had unlimited funds would be great SHIP

[SHL]

I just loved your original Uninvited film, it was tremendous. Rye took inspiration, a germ of an idea from SHIP fiction story, Rye adapted, took inspiration from and turned it into "Enthusiastic Participation: Reigns of Terror", and it is one of my favorite SHIP films ever. That is an example of how one adapts and strips down a story in order to make a first rate film. For me, it's the germ of the idea that makes SHIP films and stories great, not as much the trappings, production values, state of the art camera angles, yes, that stuff is cool, but it is the story that makes the film, and I think there is a treasure trove of SHIP fiction that can be mined for SHIP films inspiration, much in the way Rye did for his Enthusiastic Participation films. It can be done.

I might be jaded but my inbox is full of “creative” ideas submitted by fans that usually sound something like this:

“What if she’s spanked, then turned upside down, then five guys walk in, then she falls from the moon, then they spank get again, then Batman walks in, then a skyscraper falls over”

Like yeah sure… that’s the one that’s going to send me over the top

A lot of people talk about this treasure trove of amazing ideas that exist that aren’t in films, magically - I’ve never been pitched one. I’ve tried to read some of the fiction on forum sites but I can never get passed a couple paragraphs before I simply mentally tap out

That’s not to be dismissive of potentially great writers that might be here and posting. But I’m not reading through all of them to find inspiration such as “guy blackmails heroine into being sex slave” which to my awareness is what Enthusiastic Participation is.

[Mr. X]

I might be jaded but my inbox is full of “creative” ideas submitted by fans that usually sound something like this:

Plus its hard to get people to understand models won't do ANYTHING you tell them. You might want to do a shoot and cover the girl goo or something but she won't go for it. Or you want 5 minutes of breast mauling. I worked with one girl who wouldn't let anyone touch her neck. Everything else was fine. Another who loved to be gagged but hated chloro scenes for some reason. Hand over mouth was fine - hand with rag was out.

Speaking of that, when I played the bad guy I had to watch how I handled the girls because you don't want to handle them the way their boyfriends handle them. That's why you rarely see sensual breast fondly. Most of the time its a spread hand and some rough movement. It is so difficult to do shoots and not have the girl think you're getting off on it.

Its almost a game of "this is the best I can get". But models clearly will NOT do a lot of things especially the high end ones.

[HeroineTard]

This is just my personal opinion, but it's been a very very long time since a western production has made me drop the suspension of disbelief just for a moment and made me think "OH wow, that's actually Wonder Woman or Supergirl getting humiliated! This could have been a long lost unaired episode!" versus "OH that's actress X playing around in fetish costume."

I think this has to do with the hyper sexualized costumes as well as porno-like tone and focus in many productions.

I'd personally like to see something that feels more like an actual episode of Electra Woman. Somewhat campy but still in the same tone as the original show, just with a bit of peril and humiliation added in.

I suppose I'm probably the odd man out and this isn't for everyone.

It's several years old now but if you want to see Campy Electra Woman, Christina Cater produced a few. It would have been great if they took the best episode of the show when Dyna Girl becomes evil and have a bdsm version for us.

Yeah it would have been great to see an evil Dyna Girl humiliate Electra Woman. Or even see a scenario where Spider Lady manages to defeat EW.

It looks like I'll have to get a custom made for something like this if it ever is to become a reality. Such is the greatness of capitalism which I fully support, including any and all exploitation. With enough money, you can pretty much get most people to do just about anything you can think of.

It seems like this thread is continuing to go down this political rabbit hole which I have zero interest continuing to read opinions on. Honestly if people hate capitalism so much, then leave for another country or start a new system yourself. We all know how that will end.

I really don't see what the point of the discussion is to begin with. Like anything is going to matter if a couple people on a fetish forum have their opinions changed.

[Mr. X]

Yeah it would have been great to see an evil Dyna Girl humiliate Electra Woman. Or even see a scenario where Spider Lady manages to defeat EW.

It looks like I'll have to get a custom made for something like this if it ever is to become a reality. Such is the greatness of capitalism which I fully support, including any and all exploitation. With enough money, you can pretty much get most people to do just about anything you can think of.

It seems like this thread is continuing to go down this political rabbit hole which I have zero interest continuing to read opinions on. Honestly if people hate capitalism so much, then leave for another country or start a new system yourself. We all know how that will end.

I really don't see what the point of the discussion is to begin with. Like anything is going to matter if a couple people on a fetish forum have their opinions changed.

Plus Dynahunk did his Electra Woman type stories too.

[SHL]

Plus its hard to get people to understand models won't do ANYTHING you tell them. You might want to do a shoot and cover the girl goo or something but she won't go for it. Or you want 5 minutes of breast mauling. I worked with one girl who wouldn't let anyone touch her neck. Everything else was fine. Another who loved to be gagged but hated chloro scenes for some reason. Hand over mouth was fine - hand with rag was out.

Speaking of that, when I played the bad guy I had to watch how I handled the girls because you don't want to handle them the way their boyfriends handle them. That's why you rarely see sensual breast fondly. Most of the time its a spread hand and some rough movement. It is so difficult to do shoots and not have the girl think you're getting off on it.

Its almost a game of "this is the best I can get". But models clearly will NOT do a lot of things especially the high end ones.

People don’t want to understand the limits, just complain about how you haven’t met their expectations

I definitely have had to rewrite on set and nix ideas to accommodate talent, when something isn’t working… it isn’t working

Usually the stuff that gets cut gets mentioned in angry comments as the obvious thing you should have done in the scene. I dunno that it helps anyone to know that it was intended and planned. But reality always wins

[Mr. X]

Plus its hard to get people to understand models won't do ANYTHING you tell them. You might want to do a shoot and cover the girl goo or something but she won't go for it. Or you want 5 minutes of breast mauling. I worked with one girl who wouldn't let anyone touch her neck. Everything else was fine. Another who loved to be gagged but hated chloro scenes for some reason. Hand over mouth was fine - hand with rag was out.

Speaking of that, when I played the bad guy I had to watch how I handled the girls because you don't want to handle them the way their boyfriends handle them. That's why you rarely see sensual breast fondly. Most of the time its a spread hand and some rough movement. It is so difficult to do shoots and not have the girl think you're getting off on it.

Its almost a game of "this is the best I can get". But models clearly will NOT do a lot of things especially the high end ones.

People don’t want to understand the limits, just complain about how you haven’t met their expectations

I definitely have had to rewrite on set and nix ideas to accommodate talent, when something isn’t working… it isn’t working

Usually the stuff that gets cut gets mentioned in angry comments as the obvious thing you should have done in the scene. I dunno that it helps anyone to know that it was intended and planned. But reality always wins

I saw that with I think it was a producer working with Paris on the first WW movie they did. Its really apparent a scene was cut cause her tush was red like was spanked repeatedly. But the scene is not there. Just one minute fighting, next minute she's in a bent over position with a red bottom. would have loved to see that but I'm not sure of the model or the producer removed it.

[bushwackerbob]

I just loved your original Uninvited film, it was tremendous. Rye took inspiration, a germ of an idea from SHIP fiction story, Rye adapted, took inspiration from and turned it into "Enthusiastic Participation: Reigns of Terror", and it is one of my favorite SHIP films ever. That is an example of how one adapts and strips down a story in order to make a first rate film. For me, it's the germ of the idea that makes SHIP films and stories great, not as much the trappings, production values, state of the art camera angles, yes, that stuff is cool, but it is the story that makes the film, and I think there is a treasure trove of SHIP fiction that can be mined for SHIP films inspiration, much in the way Rye did for his Enthusiastic Participation films. It can be done.

I might be jaded but my inbox is full of “creative” ideas submitted by fans that usually sound something like this:

“What if she’s spanked, then turned upside down, then five guys walk in, then she falls from the moon, then they spank get again, then Batman walks in, then a skyscraper falls over”

Like yeah sure… that’s the one that’s going to send me over the top

A lot of people talk about this treasure trove of amazing ideas that exist that aren’t in films, magically - I’ve never been pitched one. I’ve tried to read some of the fiction on forum sites but I can never get passed a couple paragraphs before I simply mentally tap out

That’s not to be dismissive of potentially great writers that might be here and posting. But I’m not reading through all of them to find inspiration such as “guy blackmails heroine into being sex slave” which to my awareness is what Enthusiastic Participation is.

Your comment about fans having dumb ideas I have no doubt, and that was precisely my original point, why would SHIP producers depend upon these folks for content with customs, most of those folks don't have any track record in terms of offering compelling and unique content. I trust the SHIP producers judgement more than anybody else in determining what project to greenlight, leaving it up to fanboys seems like a nonsensical, outmoded way of doing business in my view. Just as an FYI, Rye's Enthusiastic Participation films were inspired by a story called "How I Spent My Summer Vacation" by Flexman. It is on Mr. X's site. It is an excellent story with many twists and turns. One thing I have learned in this little community is that there are many incredibly creative and talented people who write SHIP fiction, sometimes in my surfing on the Internet through various sites one is likely to find many gems.

[SHL]

I think there is a treasure trove of SHIP fiction that can be mined for SHIP films inspiration, much in the way Rye did for his Enthusiastic Participation films. It can be done.

A lot of people talk about this treasure trove of amazing ideas that exist that aren’t in films, magically - I’ve never been pitched one. I’ve tried to read some of the fiction on forum sites but I can never get passed a couple paragraphs before I simply mentally tap out

That’s not to be dismissive of potentially great writers that might be here and posting. But I’m not reading through all of them to find inspiration such as “guy blackmails heroine into being sex slave” which to my awareness is what Enthusiastic Participation is.

Your comment about fans having dumb ideas I have no doubt, and that was precisely my original point, why would SHIP producers depend upon these folks for content with customs, most of those folks don't have any track record in terms of offering compelling and unique content. I trust the SHIP producers judgement more than anybody else in determining what project to greenlight, leaving it up to fanboys seems like a nonsensical, outmoded way of doing business in my view. Just as an FYI, Rye's Enthusiastic Participation films were inspired by a story called "How I Spent My Summer Vacation" by Flexman. It is on Mr. X's site. It is an excellent story with many twists and turns. One thing I have learned in this little community is that there are many incredibly creative and talented people who write SHIP fiction, sometimes in my surfing on the Internet through various sites one is likely to find many gems.

You had two points 1. customs tend to be made by non creative customer requestors and 2. there are tons of amazing stories here that producers don't adapt

Point 1: we agree on

Point 2: Remains to be proven

I read a lot of complaints about how uncreative peoples films are but I don't recall ever seeing suggestions for ideas, both here or on heroine movies, that I have ever found more creative than whats usually happening in films

Most things people find 'creative' tend to just be what their personal kinks are.

[sugarcoater]

Seems like you’re defining capitalism in a specific manner to suit your argument. My sense has always been that capitalism is a simply the opportunity to sell one’s goods and services to whom ever they want at whatever price they want. Anything else is a form of intervention not associated with capitalism. The problem is a government will have to impose itself on capitalism, which creates all sorts of headaches, problems and corruption. But capitalism itself is just the exchange of goods and services between willing parties. That’s it. What you seem to be doing is describing how capitalism is manipulated, but you’re not describing capitalism.

No, come on now, don't give me that narrow descriptive silliness. We're WATCHING it happen around us as we speak. I am aware of the 'definition' of Capitalism. I'm not talking about the idyllic fantasy of what Capitalism COULD be in a perfect harmonious world where everyone shares hugs and rainbows, gets along and have no intention of hurting one another ever for any reason... I'm talking about what it IS, factually, as it's mechanisms churn in the real world, in the hands of real people. More specifically I'm talking about what it INSPIRES, and it does NOT inspire selling one's goods and services at cost... it inspires making money, at. any. cost. The LESS you have to produce to get it, and the more you can charge for it the better. That doesn't inspire innovation, which is the whole point of the conversation. Definitions help us define things at their core principles, and I'll GIVE you that at it's defined core Capitalism is as fine and dandy as ANY system with ideals toward helping average people get what they need to survive. But like SO MANY systems before it, it's failing for the same reason all other's have failed. In my opinion it's time to try something new so that we can at least get that polite 'honeymoon' period of new philosophy whereby people are too busy working out how to live in the system rather than working out how to fuck everyone else with it.

I am going with that narrow description because that is the definition of capitalism. The various ways it is manipulated is something else. The reason I added my thoughts is simply because the conflation of corruption with capitalism is a mistake and leads to erroneous conclusions as to what works and what does not work economically. This is not, to use the kids' word du jour, "simping" for capitalism. This is merely to suggest a more precise and accurate assessment be made if one is going to delve into an economics topic. Capitalism is not failing, it really can't as it is merely an effective exchange system. The failure is in the way people manipulate people and businesses. I actually think we are in agreement for the most part.

[korda]

All the energy of our fetish migrated to Anime. The damsels in distress that brought us here migrated to that medium. I don't know if there are movies being produced for those characters except the ones I see produced by Giga, but the fetish is fueled by fan service in the cartoons and images in deviantart, pixiv, hentai and mangas. If Marvel and DC licensed their characters for a line of mangas and anime I have no doubt that there would be a fetish rejuvenation of our genre.

[Femina]

Yes there's NO point at which one could take 90% of the stories people write and turn it into a fetish production. You're talking about a medium where the only limit is your imagination, and porting over to a medium which is just dogpiled with limitations. Theatrical flicks based on books cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Sure it may be fun to read Damsilbinder's 18 STORIES of Enhancegirl and say 'dang he really put together a hell of an epic' but then to say 'it's too bad Producers aren't using that as a basis for their stuff' because there's absolutely no universe in which SHiP producers could afford the bill. It'd be MADNESS... It IS madness to even suggest it xD. I suppose I can't fault the sentiment as a form of non serious 'wistfulness' but any SERIOUS examination of the idea is pure 70's show Circle talk.

All the energy of our fetish migrated to Anime. The damsels in distress that brought us here migrated to that medium. I don't know if there are movies being produced for those characters except the ones I see produced by Giga, but the fetish is fueled by fan service in the cartoons and images in deviantart, pixiv, hentai and mangas. If Marvel and DC licensed their characters for a line of mangas and anime I have no doubt that there would be a fetish rejuvenation of our genre.

No that's not..... Anime's been doing this ALONGSIDE SHiP since the dawn of time. The first MAJOR heroine peril stuff is like, super old hentais... There's no sudden energy shift there, it's just that Hentai energy has remained consistently alive and well... I'm not sure if SHiP ever even got as BIG as the Anime pervs... I'm not a producer though so maybe someone with the know how knows better how we fared in that arena.

I am going with that narrow description because that is the definition of capitalism. The various ways it is manipulated is something else. The reason I added my thoughts is simply because the conflation of corruption with capitalism is a mistake and leads to erroneous conclusions as to what works and what does not work economically. This is not, to use the kids' word du jour, "simping" for capitalism. This is merely to suggest a more precise and accurate assessment be made if one is going to delve into an economics topic. Capitalism is not failing, it really can't as it is merely an effective exchange system. The failure is in the way people manipulate people and businesses. I actually think we are in agreement for the most part.

The people ARE Capitalism. That's the point. If the people running it in America are failing, then Capitalism in America is failing. It's PURE Semantics to differentiate the system from the people who run the system, because the people that run it are essentially in control of what it is. Philosophies and governing methods change. The ones that don't are old and no longer in action anywhere in the world enough to have actors involved changing them. Capitalism in America isn't what it used to be, it doesn't conform unilaterally to the defined curriculum of the base tenants of Capitalism as defined in an overly idealistic book, and yet it remains 100% capitalism... and none of it matters at all to the discussion that was occurring in which I was talking about how Capitalism does NOT in fact, encourage innovation. It only encourages making money, IF innovation will do that, then a Capitalist will innovate in order to make money... but only the bare minimum, and never when they aren't being paid. If it suddenly becomes more profitable to CHEAT, the innovation goes out the window and somebody gets sued after the FDA starts to find arsenic in our baby food... they pay the fine, and keep feeding our babies arsenic cause it's still more profitable to do so. I don't remember where I heard it but someone once defined it thusly. If the only punishment for a crime is a fine, then the crime only exists for the lower class.

But you know what... SOME Capitalists DO innovate... but do you know why? It's because they care. They're working in the system we have to do something they CARE about. Something they very likely would have done for FREE if they materials to do so were available for free. When someone innovates in Capitalism, it's not even a given that Capitalism is what MADE them innovate. You see it sometimes on rare occasion. A small business' that invents something, and DOESNT sell it to the first corporation that comes knocking because they know doing so makes them rich, while fucking everyone else... and usually Capitalism EVENTUALLY spoils even that because most people have a price tag wherein they finally break down and recognize they're being offered enough money to not just 'survive' in the system we have but to finally FINALLY thrive, and all it costs is to give this thing they made that improves peoples lives to a corporation who hikes the price up 100% and decreases it's quality every 3 years until only the lower upper class and above can afford it, and have to replace it every year or so when the cheap piece of crap breaks.

[Dazzle1]

All the energy of our fetish migrated to Anime. The damsels in distress that brought us here migrated to that medium. I don't know if there are movies being produced for those characters except the ones I see produced by Giga, but the fetish is fueled by fan service in the cartoons and images in deviantart, pixiv, hentai and mangas. If Marvel and DC licensed their characters for a line of mangas and anime I have no doubt that there would be a fetish rejuvenation of our genre.

That was something I was wonderig about since for me the antimated DC universe is better than the live action DC or Marvel.

But although SHIP has sliped through the cracks(as far as I know) because people are still producing Wonder Woman and Batgirl fetish, would there be amarker for involved 3d animation SHIP. I know there is some basic stuff on the net but not really any storyline in it.

[darious]

Damien - Can't say I disagree with you about most of your sentiments with regards to this niche. I've been a fan and patron of this niche for a VERY LONG time (think back to the days of dial-up modems/BBS chat rooms)...

Speaking as a long time vet...it's true that the niche peaked the interest of a wider audience and there were far more producers creating content in the early 2000's...which has greatly diminished over the past 5-10 years ..

Aside from the 'customs', which is obviously the only thing keeping this niche afloat....it seems as though the 'talent pool' (i.e., models) has greatly diminished as well...Save for a few 'dedicated' models (e.g., Coco)....another issue (IMO) is a lack of talent available in the niche to keep things fresh/varied. I think SHL is the one site where I see different models on most new releases...

That's not really the case on most SH Fetish/Productions... as the talent pool is VERY limited...Obviously, attracting new talent requires incentives ($$$) which no doubt is severely impacted by diminishing ROI due to rampant file sharing

One question/idea that's always crossed my mind is why this niche never really adopted a 'streaming' only (no downloads) business model to help reduce/eliminate file sharing of uploaded content on various file sharing sites???

I get that a 'pay per minute' or 'online rental' business model may not be as lucrative as selling 'downloadable content'. ...But the unintended affect of having all content available for 'download'....is the proliferation of file-sharing.....which is obviously far more damning in terms of lost revenue....

Just my thoughts...

The 'Model Pool' is complicated.

I do think in fact - there are a decent amount of performers who are no longer hirable due to the success of their OF accounts (Alina Lopez being a good example). But I don't think this is the primary reason for a 'model drought' as you could argue OF has converted more women into sex work than converted sex workers into exclusive producers of their own content. If anything I imagine OF becoming more normalized to our society has probably created a landslide of potential new talent to work with as more young women will feel more comfortable exploring the sex work industry, who ten years ago socially wouldn't risk the backlash.

I am one of the few superheroine producers who shoots in LA. Most of the directors featured on SHG are from roughly the same area (Seattle/Portland). You could kind of see that in releases historically - when a traveling model would go Northwest they would then be slatted to appear in a lot of those directors work all at the same time.

The pandemic I know shut down the Northwest for a long while as that first year it was too high risk to shoot this kind of content, so a lot of models stopped traveling, and a lot of directors choose to stay safe vs risk the health risk. I don't know we have fully recovered from that as some talent that I know decided around that time to no longer do travel gigs, as the first year of the pandemic showed them what life could be like without living across the country in a car hunting for more work.

I didn't end up in the same situation - I went to LA at the height of the pandemic and shot roughly 6 films with those who kept working. Batgirl The Prison, Wonder Woman The Harvest, Spider-Girl Multiverse Monster, Supergirl brothers Vengeance, Batgirl Double Crossed, Wonder Woman Recon Interrupted - were all shot in the same month. Things at that time were so bad in LA - the hotel almost didn't let me book a room but had mercy on me.

To work with the talent I want to work with - I will go anywhere. I will go to NY, I will go to LA, I will go to London. Whatever it takes. Most people don't have the luxury to do such things and to be honest - it can take the piss out of you.

Another aspect of the 'Model Pool' is also about taking chances with new talent - you never know when hiring someone new if they can pull off a convincing superhero, if they can throw a fake punch, etc. On boarding a new heroine takes work and risk. I imagine a lot of people who order customs - just ask for proven talent they have seen from other films. In that sense - customs may actually be preventing more new talent from appearing in these films both in custom requests as well as making the danger of hiring unproven talent on your own dime feel less appealing.

It can also be political. Some directors don't like 'sharing' talent and it can become a territory thing. They won't help you hire someone they have worked with, or will encourage someone not to work with you, so the only work someone gets is through them. The less work someone gets in the fetish industry - the more likely they are too leave it.

So I think all of things are factors into what people might be saying when they say there is a modeling pool issue. The pandemic and OnlyFans changed things, where models travel too isnt the same, customs maybe factoring into rotating proven talent, less original content means less people take risk on hiring fresh faces, the older we directors get the less likely someone will travel to the talent becomes. It kind of creates the illusion that the modeling pool is shrinking. But I dunno, maybe it is.

LAST THOUGHTS ON THE 'MODELING POOL'

Taboo content is under some scrutiny recently with OF becoming bigger - credit card processors reacted by becoming more puritanical, places like clips4sale and OF then clamp down on 'taboo content'. This genre reeks of taboo content: chloroform, hypnosis, CNC, superheroines getting beaten to a pulp, etc. Even if a film doesn't have nudity - the second a rag goes over someones mouth it becomes problematic to place into the free market.

I think this does affect the work that some people will allow to happen. I have had a couple 'model agents' outright refuse to even tell their talent I wanted to hire them, just having me run in circles pretending they were inquiring with their models when in reality - they never had any intention of letting me hire anyone they managed. Now I don't know thats because of the taboo nature of the content, but I can say it didn't happen to me before but happened a couple times last year. It got so bad I took a trip to LA for two weeks and didn't make a single film cause agents essentially walled me out of their talent pools.

All this stuff can intertwine and change how things work. It's harder to incentivize a model with content sharing when... she can't sell the content you shoot with her on OF. Leaves you less to barter with.

STREAMING

I have a lot of thoughts on this one. The primary one being a moral stance: I don't believe in people paying for content and not getting to keep it.

As someone who loves to collect films (blu-rays) and music (vinyl records) I value the ability to own the work I love. I also believe creatives should keep control over the ownership of their work and thought it was cool when Taylor Swift re-recorded all her albums to gain control over her art.

I don't think of myself as a pornographer, but a filmmaker who is comfortable with porn. All of you only know me as Damien Woods - the superheroine porn director, while in fact I have spent a lifetime as an artist who is known in my social circle for mediums I choose to explore - artist/painter/photographer/filmmaker. I went to art school. My thesis project was a short film. It was not about superheroines... lol

I DO NOT BELIEVE IN WATERMARKING MY FILMS. Every frame a painting (shoutout to anyone who knows the reference). I don't care if I am making an indie film shot for a film festival, or if I am making a fetish film for internet perverts - there is a sanctity to film, there is a sanctity to art. If someone wants to buy my films and add it to their collection - I respect that human instinct to own and worship.

Does that put me at the risk of losing revenue? Maybe. Hollywood - a billion dollar industry (or is it a trillion dollar industry? I dunno, don't care to look it up) can't even protect their own product. Across the Spider Verse was being streamed on TikTok the same week it was released. If Hollywood can't stop that with the money they have - how could I? The internet is a complicated place and its so easy to copy and replicate data

I decided back in 2020 to take another approach - I literally wrote an article on Heroine Movies about it. I wrote about how file sharing was killing my business. How maybe I would create a members only website to sell new films, amongst other things. And I was met with A LOT OF CRITICISM! Internally (my peers) and externally (the audience)

The arguments then if I could remember correctly were - that my films sucked and thats why no one was buying them, that it had nothing to do with file sharing. Or that I was just a cry baby. Insiders in the industry told me I shouldn't even acknowledge the fact that illegal streams existed, that it would only encourage the audience to seek them out. I think as far as I am aware I might be the only, if not count us on your hand, superheroine director who was publicly acknowledged that illegal streaming was actively fucking my business and life. I remember when I released Supergirl Brothers Vengeance - someone leaked it only a couple days after I began selling it. And SALES PLUMMETEDDDDD

I bring this up because in fact = telling people I was struggling seemed to work. That year I probably for the first time in a long time, saw a lack of my work being stolen and displayed on illegal streaming sites compared to what I had been use too. Eventually - that goodwill wore off. But I genuinely think most people didn't even consider piracy was hurting this genre. It was almost as if they hadn't even considered it.

(Side note: I remember even talking to pirates in DMs asking them kindly to not leak my film until at least two months after release, as a middle ground to at least let me hit profit, they were very cool about it. It was complicated... but... they took down their posts for a couple months so thats saying something!)

If I had a choice between...

A) My site doesn't let you download but my profits increase

vs

B) My site lets you download but my profits decrease

Then I am picking B. I don't give a fuck. I don't believe in selling an empty box.

I rather humiliate myself and ask my pirates to kindly fuck me softly. All of you deserve the ability to download and own the films that you purchase. I just wish less people had the desire to create a genre cancer by sharing what they buy.

But... thats show business baby!

Damien -

Thanks for your transparency and detailed response. I absolutely agree with your sentiments regarding downloads... Although I posed the question about streaming vs. downloads, I absolutely shudder at the thought of not being permitted to keep (download) the content I wish to view... The only reason I mentioned it at all was simply to ponder what avenues might be considered (if not already) to help 'resuscitate' our niche ....

As far as OF is concerned....yeah its definitely a double-edged sword....More girls (talent) entering the porn industry....but less than ever willing to work for a producer...when they're free to make their own content/money.... In that regard, I do believe it hits directly at the 'talent pool' as it relates to this niche in particular.

Sadly, it seems as though we are 'boxed' into this new reality....I e., customs and 'cheesy' porn films of girls parading in cheap Halloween (heroine) costumes... Cheers to you and the few producers (SHG-Media) trying to keep this niche afloat (as best as possible).

[saxman314]

When's the last time you saw leg, skin or ass in one of these movies that wasn't Chris Hemsworth or Henry Cavil or Jason Mamoa? A solid pair of good boobs? One movie. A nice ass shot that was more than 3 seconds.

Has no one here watched The Boys?

[saxman314]

As for famous people, our site had one member from North Korea.

Holy shit! Guess he was feeling ronery?

[saxman314]

All the energy of our fetish migrated to Anime. The damsels in distress that brought us here migrated to that medium. I don't know if there are movies being produced for those characters except the ones I see produced by Giga, but the fetish is fueled by fan service in the cartoons and images in deviantart, pixiv, hentai and mangas. If Marvel and DC licensed their characters for a line of mangas and anime I have no doubt that there would be a fetish rejuvenation of our genre.

You're 100% right about the anime thing and it is a huge disappointment when looking for roleplay to see all these folks who only want to play anime characters with Japanese words for every act that already had a name in English, not to mention the prevalence of VERY young or at least "young looking" :blegh: characters.

On the other hand, if you can't beat 'em... Marvel/DC licensing characters to mangas and anime is a hell of an idea, and I bet you're 100%. We'd just all have to learn terms like waifu, tsundere, paizuri, and whatever else just to know what the weebs are talking about.

[Ernie]

I might be jaded but my inbox is full of “creative” ideas submitted by fans that usually sound something like this:

“What if she’s spanked, then turned upside down, then five guys walk in, then she falls from the moon, then they spank get again, then Batman walks in, then a skyscraper falls over”

Like yeah sure… that’s the one that’s going to send me over the top

A lot of people talk about this treasure trove of amazing ideas that exist that aren’t in films, magically - I’ve never been pitched one. I’ve tried to read some of the fiction on forum sites but I can never get passed a couple paragraphs before I simply mentally tap out

That’s not to be dismissive of potentially great writers that might be here and posting. But I’m not reading through all of them to find inspiration such as “guy blackmails heroine into being sex slave” which to my awareness is what Enthusiastic Participation is.

I'm glad you wrote this post. It's a nice distillation of the sneering condescension that animates so much of your commentary here. Reminds me a little of Logan.

[shadowpowerslaver]

Mostly I agree with what SHL said before, customs is the best business way today, and we're so spoiled, but not with the miracle part. The one who spoiled us is the movie which brings us here, like Helen Slater's Supergirl, in my case. The vital thing is you have to buy the image that she's a real Supergirl. Even Melissa fails to do that in that TV Show. Of course, the costume and VFX make contributions, but the Supergirl movie caught me by the first flying scene, where she looks incredibly enjoying her superpower. That's a reaction that regular people could imagine but will never have. I remember RYE‘s early works generally being faithful on the costume part, and also included many plot elements that I like, such as unexpected identity revelations and failed escape attempts. But her reaction kept hinting to me that she's not a superheroine but wearing that costume and pretending a Supergirl. My point is I understand the reason behind our situation now, but there's a way out instead of a miracle. Try eliminating anything that ruins the superheroine vibes since we have many powerful tools like After Effects today.