Picard Season 3 (2023, Paramount+)

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shevek
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I wasn't going to bother with this but some Youtubers were saying it was great and a return to form.
So I checked out the first episode (that's all that is out right now) and it was very solid, like a darker (and obviously older) version of TNG.

Notwithstanding Michelle Hurd's apparent need for her tiny fanbase to see her "silhouette of unruly curls" (who cares? I just want a good character), it's a good mix of Federation intrigue, stunning technological visuals, and vaporizing levels of pew-pew-pew (from Beverly Crusher).

I was into almost every aspect of it except:

- What was the real impetus for Picard to commandeer a Federation Starship? In the previous seasons, he got hold of a much smaller, nimbler ship and did just fine. Wouldn't there be tons of mercenaries he could choose from in that galaxy?

- The setting of a planet where currency is still being used was an interesting choice. I mean, I know that science-fiction stories love to show galactic "credits" changing hands in sleazy bars and whatnot, but that hasn't really been a feature of much Star Trek other than bars of latinum.

- And, along those lines, what are the chances that planet just happens to be named after the writer of the episode, who is also the showrunner: "M'talas Prime" = Terry Matalas. I did a little digging and found out that Matalas was an assistant to Brannon Braga in Season 2 of ST: Enterprise, and
that a planet had been named after Matalas in S2 E13 "Dawn". That's fine, but to bring it back as a self-insert 20 years later shows a bit much of an ego on the level of when "[Mariko] Tamaki Air Base" appeared in an episode of Supergirl.

Anyway, I unexpectedly enjoyed this, and I'll follow along with the story to catch all the gray-haired TNGers popping up one by one until we finally get Worf and Troi.
16picard-videoSixteenByNine3000.jpg
16picard-videoSixteenByNine3000.jpg (1.02 MiB) Viewed 2015 times
What did anyone else think?
Last edited by shevek 1 year ago, edited 2 times in total.
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I agree that the first episode of Picard was solid and had a darker tone compared to TNG. I also enjoyed the mix of Federation intrigue, stunning visuals, and action scenes. However, I also had some concerns, such as the need for Picard to commandeer a Federation Starship and the use of currency on a planet. I also found it a bit too self-indulgent to name a planet after the showrunner, Terry Matalas. Overall, though, I found the episode enjoyable and will continue watching to see how the story develops.
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Damselbinder

shevek wrote:
1 year ago
I wasn't going to bother with this but some Youtubers were saying it was great and a return to form.
So I checked out the first episode (that's all that is out right now) and it was very solid, like a darker (and obviously older) version of TNG.

Notwithstanding Michelle Hurd's apparent need for her tiny fanbase to see her "silhouette of unruly curls" (who cares? I just want a good character), it's a good mix of Federation intrigue, stunning technological visuals, and vaporizing levels of pew-pew-pew (from Beverly Crusher).

I was into almost every aspect of it except:

- What was the real impetus for Picard to commandeer a Federation Starship? In the previous seasons, he got hold of a much smaller, nimbler ship and did just fine. Wouldn't there be tons of mercenaries he could choose from in that galaxy?

- The setting of a planet where currency is still being used was an interesting choice. I mean, I know that science-fiction stories love to show galactic "credits" changing hands in sleazy bars and whatnot, but that hasn't really been a feature of much Star Trek other than bars of latinum.

- And, along those lines, what are the chances that planet just happens to be named after the writer of the episode, who is also the showrunner: "M'talas Prime" = Terry Matalas. I did a little digging and found out that Matalas was an assistant to Brannon Braga in Season 2 of ST: Enterprise, and
that a planet had been named after Matalas in S2 E13 "Dawn". That's fine, but to bring it back as a self-insert 20 years later shows a bit much of an ego on the level of when "[Mariko] Tamaki Air Base" appeared in an episode of Supergirl.

Anyway, I unexpectedly enjoyed this, and I'll follow along with the story to catch all the gray-haired TNGers popping up one by one until we finally get Worf and Troi.

16picard-videoSixteenByNine3000.jpg

What did anyone else think?
"That hasn't been a feature of much Star Trek other than bars of latinum" - well yeah but those bars of latinum are mentioned like all the fucking time in DS9, so I think we're okay here. If it's not a Federation planet, they're probably going to use money.
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Damselbinder wrote:
1 year ago

"That hasn't been a feature of much Star Trek other than bars of latinum" - well yeah but those bars of latinum are mentioned like all the fucking time in DS9, so I think we're okay here. If it's not a Federation planet, they're probably going to use money.
This whole thing is misleading because credits are essentially money. Picard is not just giving wine away. Now maybe credits are like bitcoin. In that case it can only be traded with the federation and Latinum can be traded anywhere. I've wondered why someone doesn't just replicate latinum. Maybe it can't be replicated? Or costs way more to replicate than its worth? But then, when you have fusion and antimatter what do you care about energy cost.

I would imagine credit/bitcoin has to exist cause any physical commodity can be replicated.
Damselbinder

Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
Damselbinder wrote:
1 year ago

"That hasn't been a feature of much Star Trek other than bars of latinum" - well yeah but those bars of latinum are mentioned like all the fucking time in DS9, so I think we're okay here. If it's not a Federation planet, they're probably going to use money.
This whole thing is misleading because credits are essentially money. Picard is not just giving wine away. Now maybe credits are like bitcoin. In that case it can only be traded with the federation and Latinum can be traded anywhere. I've wondered why someone doesn't just replicate latinum. Maybe it can't be replicated? Or costs way more to replicate than its worth? But then, when you have fusion and antimatter what do you care about energy cost.

I would imagine credit/bitcoin has to exist cause any physical commodity can be replicated.
"Wondered" indeed

Yes, latinum can't be replicated; that's why it's used as a currency. Picard IS just giving the wine away, no-one in the Federation itself uses 'credits'. The scene where credits were mentioned happened on a non-Federation world.

NOT any physical commodity can be replicated. Dilithium can't, for instance. Admittedly the mechanics of how the Federation's economy work are pretty fucking sketchy - people still OWN things, after all. Land is still finite on Earth or whatever, so idk how people decide who owns what land. Idk, Star Trek was never the clearest on that shit. They say they're a post-money, post-scarcity society - I'm fine with that in concept even if I'm not sure how it could actually function.
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The Federation isn't capitalist. As DB mentioned, Picard DOES give the wine away, when you go to a restaurant people make you food for free. When you need your house repaired, people come and fix it for you. In Trek, society was supposed to have reached a utopian precipice whereby people work and do jobs for FREE because everyone else works for free to help one another out. This is just one of many many aspects about Star Trek which the newer series continue to bungle in the stupid rush to just lazily ape off modern day problems in as blatant and unsophisticated a method as they possibly can while ignoring the series canonical elements wherever they become even the mildest hurdle for said unsophisticated plot threads.
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I always love these theoretical questions about the Star Trek universe and how it relates to our contemporary times. Interesting topic of discussion.
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Femina wrote:
1 year ago
Picard DOES give the wine away,
where was this stated?
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Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
Femina wrote:
1 year ago
Picard DOES give the wine away,
where was this stated?
In the first episode of Season 3, he does give the wine to Captain Shaw. But Shaw rejects it and says "I always preferred a Malbec", as a blatant
insult to Picard.

Oh, and I forgot to mention one thing about Episode 1, but this part will go in the Spoiler Mode:
Spoiler
Will Wheaton is so terrible and useless that they had to create a brand-new son for Beverly Crusher (Jack Crusher) out of whole cloth.
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Mr. X
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shevek wrote:
1 year ago
Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
Femina wrote:
1 year ago
Picard DOES give the wine away,
where was this stated?
In the first episode of Season 3, he does give the wine to Captain Shaw. But Shaw rejects it and says "I always preferred a Malbec", as a blatant
insult to Picard.

Oh, and I forgot to mention one thing about Episode 1, but this part will go in the Spoiler Mode:
Spoiler
Will Wheaton is so terrible and useless that they had to create a brand-new son for Beverly Crusher (Jack Crusher) out of whole cloth.
Wait so he gives ALL his wine away for free to anyone who wants it at no cost, even cost of production or is this a case if him giving one bottle to someone?
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shevek
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shevek wrote:
1 year ago
Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
Femina wrote:
1 year ago
Picard DOES give the wine away,
where was this stated?
In the first episode of Season 3, he does give the wine to Captain Shaw. But Shaw rejects it and says "I always preferred a Malbec", as a blatant
insult to Picard.

Wait so he gives ALL his wine away for free to anyone who wants it at no cost, even cost of production or is this a case if him giving one bottle to someone?
In all the articles I see, the concept of payment for services and goods is poorly explained or glossed over in the Star Trek universe.
There's some kind of vague Federation or Terran system of credit that seems to remain undefined, as does the idea of ownership over property.
We are told that the vineyard was 'successful' under the ownership of Jean-Luc's brother Robert and Rene, and that he acquired it after they
passed away. What we are not told is how he pays for the machinery that operates on the farm, or any of the other expenses needed - is he ever seen 'poring over the books' in any of the episodes featuring the vineyard? I don't think so.....
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Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
shevek wrote:
1 year ago
Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
Femina wrote:
1 year ago
Picard DOES give the wine away,
where was this stated?
In the first episode of Season 3, he does give the wine to Captain Shaw. But Shaw rejects it and says "I always preferred a Malbec", as a blatant
insult to Picard.

Oh, and I forgot to mention one thing about Episode 1, but this part will go in the Spoiler Mode:
Spoiler
Will Wheaton is so terrible and useless that they had to create a brand-new son for Beverly Crusher (Jack Crusher) out of whole cloth.
Wait so he gives ALL his wine away for free to anyone who wants it at no cost, even cost of production or is this a case if him giving one bottle to someone?
There's NO Capitalism! The federation is post scarcity UTOPIAN socialist. There is no 'cost' of production', and it is first mentioned early on in season 1 of TNG when the dumbass stock broker man is unfrozen only to find the world's changed so much that all the wealth he hoarded is useless now. (A lot like that one Twilight zone episode where the bank robbers who steal all the gold are transported to the future where gold is valueless) Data also mentions in the series that televisions don't exist anymore, something they've clearly retconned for Picard (along with a lot of other things of similar ilk), but that was a throwaway line, not the focus of many an episodes plot or flavor in the same way the Federations' social structure is built.

The cost of production is shouldered by people who work in other sectors whose cost of production is shouldered by others and on and on in a nifty circle where your generosity comes back around. Need someone to till your fields? You just call the guy. Need some machinery equipment? You call the guy. Need to get the water requisition for the fields? You call the guy and they allot you the water you need... if you even have to ask at all (you may just have replicators onsite that generate all the water you need, utilizing a power grid which is simply provided to you, and set up for you, no cost). It's the same 'methodology' as everything we do now, they just don't PAY for anything, because exchanging rectangular slips of paper isn't ACTUALLY a requisite toward getting anything done. All the stuff you do cause people pay you, you can still do if you haven't been paid assuming that you don't need to pay anyone else for the things you need to acquire in order to do the job. The people of the Federation do their jobs at no cost because everyone else in the federation does their jobs at no cost for you. The only things the Federation actively pays for is in negotiations with non-Federation allies and adversaries, in which case they likely use something like the bartering system, providing bulk resources and such in exchange for whatever they need from the seller. A decent example of this would be on DS9 where the personnel onboard seem to be given a stipend of gold pressed latinum in order to satisfy Quark's capitalist sensibilities. The people at the top who do have to worry about resources likely play a pretty good game of Tetris organizing and shipping everything around, but without the inherant greed of Capitalism to encourage a rat race of money hoarding or theft along the 'moneyflow' those resources pretty easily just travel to where you need them to go.

At least, that's how it worked before this bastardized trilogy of seasons of this garbage show. Frankly, insofar as 'Picard' the television show is concerned, I honestly can't say for certain how the Federation economy works, because Picard is often a load of dogshit that enjoys pissing on its own legacy. But until they 'retcon' it out loud, there's no reason to think anything's been changed.
Damselbinder

shevek wrote:
1 year ago
shevek wrote:
1 year ago
Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
Femina wrote:
1 year ago
Picard DOES give the wine away,
where was this stated?
In the first episode of Season 3, he does give the wine to Captain Shaw. But Shaw rejects it and says "I always preferred a Malbec", as a blatant
insult to Picard.

Wait so he gives ALL his wine away for free to anyone who wants it at no cost, even cost of production or is this a case if him giving one bottle to someone?
In all the articles I see, the concept of payment for services and goods is poorly explained or glossed over in the Star Trek universe.
There's some kind of vague Federation or Terran system of credit that seems to remain undefined, as does the idea of ownership over property.
We are told that the vineyard was 'successful' under the ownership of Jean-Luc's brother Robert and Rene, and that he acquired it after they
passed away. What we are not told is how he pays for the machinery that operates on the farm, or any of the other expenses needed - is he ever seen 'poring over the books' in any of the episodes featuring the vineyard? I don't think so.....
Yeah, I think that's one of those things you just either accept or you don't. Now, the machinery wouldn't be an issue: you could make most of the things a vineyard would need in an industrial replicator. But, yes, the way their economy actually works is left undefined. The worldbuilder in me is a little peeved by that: I'd rather have more information. But, hey, maybe it's better left largely unsaid. Star Trek's utopianism isn't about the merits of a PARTICULAR economic system; but more the general idea that humanity, in the future, will make a fairer, better world.
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Well it does stand to reason why have credits if there is no money. Credits are a form of currency. But yes ST does not define this well. My guess is the federation has a bitcoin type currency called credits where its not recognized by aliens outside the federation and so they use latinum. Could be Latinum costs a lot more to replicate than to simply trade for and mine.

Which raises another issue, why mine at all? Unless replication isn't matter from energy but instead raw material assembled into objects kind of like a 3d printer type concept.

Maybe this is a minor point that shouldn't be used to drag the show down.
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I suspect Gene Roddenberry up in heaven is having a good laugh about this thread, LOL! I wonder, when Roddenberry was struggling to get the show on the air every week and worried about the survival of his show, I wonder how much time and consideration he really gave the issue of currency in the future. I suspect he had vague notions and ideas about currency on Earth in the 23 and 24th centuries, but I question whether he spent as much time considering that issue as the wise and smart folks on this thread have. I also wonder if when the franchise was revived in the 70's to make the TV show that ended up being the first Star Trek film, or perhaps when Next Generation was being developed, whether the studio commissioned a template or bible for what life is like on Earth in those futuristic times, including questions of currency. I remember reading a Star Trek universe Encyclopedia a long time ago, so I do know there are some folks that must be invested at Paramount in Star Trek futuristic lore and way of life. My own take is that there must be some type of modest currency on 23-24th century Earth, not something that drives the economy and is a prominent aspect of human life, but perhaps some form of a barter system or a modest form of credits. I love the conversation, everybody is making great points.
Damselbinder

Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
Well it does stand to reason why have credits if there is no money. Credits are a form of currency. But yes ST does not define this well. My guess is the federation has a bitcoin type currency called credits where its not recognized by aliens outside the federation and so they use latinum. Could be Latinum costs a lot more to replicate than to simply trade for and mine.

Which raises another issue, why mine at all? Unless replication isn't matter from energy but instead raw material assembled into objects kind of like a 3d printer type concept.

Maybe this is a minor point that shouldn't be used to drag the show down.
X I would really love it if you would actually read what other people post. I already told you that the Federation doesn't (as far as we know) use credits. The scene in Picard where someone used credits was not on a Federation world.

Also, latinum is not used by everyone as far as we know. It is used by Ferengi, a culture obsessed with wealth to the point of ludicrosity (though their culture and beliefs are treated a little more fairly in DS9), and some other minor races we see trading with them. Latinum CANNOT be replicated, we know this. Ferengi used to use gold as a currency, but gold can be replicated, so it's now worthless (there's actually inconsistency here; in early DS9 Quark says "gold is good!"; then later "there's nothing here but worthless gold!!!").

Replication IS matter from energy. I am, right now, watching an episode of Star Trek Voyager where they state this explicitly. Earlier entries in the timeline, like 'Enterprise' had something called a "protein resequencer", which was more of a 3D-printer-esque thing that required raw materials.

Mining is necessary for the few things that can't be replicated. For example, dilithium, a critical component in most starships - I assume that the showrunners keep dilithium finite so that it's possible for crews to have resource problems from time to time.
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Damselbinder wrote:
1 year ago
Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
Well it does stand to reason why have credits if there is no money. Credits are a form of currency. But yes ST does not define this well. My guess is the federation has a bitcoin type currency called credits where its not recognized by aliens outside the federation and so they use latinum. Could be Latinum costs a lot more to replicate than to simply trade for and mine.

Which raises another issue, why mine at all? Unless replication isn't matter from energy but instead raw material assembled into objects kind of like a 3d printer type concept.

Maybe this is a minor point that shouldn't be used to drag the show down.
X I would really love it if you would actually read what other people post. I already told you that the Federation doesn't (as far as we know) use credits. The scene in Picard where someone used credits was not on a Federation world.

Also, latinum is not used by everyone as far as we know. It is used by Ferengi, a culture obsessed with wealth to the point of ludicrosity (though their culture and beliefs are treated a little more fairly in DS9), and some other minor races we see trading with them. Latinum CANNOT be replicated, we know this. Ferengi used to use gold as a currency, but gold can be replicated, so it's now worthless (there's actually inconsistency here; in early DS9 Quark says "gold is good!"; then later "there's nothing here but worthless gold!!!").

Replication IS matter from energy. I am, right now, watching an episode of Star Trek Voyager where they state this explicitly. Earlier entries in the timeline, like 'Enterprise' had something called a "protein resequencer", which was more of a 3D-printer-esque thing that required raw materials.

Mining is necessary for the few things that can't be replicated. For example, dilithium, a critical component in most starships - I assume that the showrunners keep dilithium finite so that it's possible for crews to have resource problems from time to time.

So lets go to the source.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Money
I don't accept you as an authority on the subject.
Outside of Earth, money and other forms of currency were still used in the 23rd and 24th century, by the Federation itself, individual Humans, and other Federation species. One form of such currency was the Federation credit.
Ronald D. Moore commented, "By the time I joined TNG, Gene had decreed that money most emphatically did NOT exist in the Federation, nor did 'credits' and that was that. Personally, I've always felt this was a bunch of hooey, but it was one of the rules and that's that." (AOL chat, 1997)
So I stand corrected. But just because YOU stated it does not mean it comes from authority.
Damselbinder

Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
Damselbinder wrote:
1 year ago
Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
Well it does stand to reason why have credits if there is no money. Credits are a form of currency. But yes ST does not define this well. My guess is the federation has a bitcoin type currency called credits where its not recognized by aliens outside the federation and so they use latinum. Could be Latinum costs a lot more to replicate than to simply trade for and mine.

Which raises another issue, why mine at all? Unless replication isn't matter from energy but instead raw material assembled into objects kind of like a 3d printer type concept.

Maybe this is a minor point that shouldn't be used to drag the show down.
X I would really love it if you would actually read what other people post. I already told you that the Federation doesn't (as far as we know) use credits. The scene in Picard where someone used credits was not on a Federation world.

Also, latinum is not used by everyone as far as we know. It is used by Ferengi, a culture obsessed with wealth to the point of ludicrosity (though their culture and beliefs are treated a little more fairly in DS9), and some other minor races we see trading with them. Latinum CANNOT be replicated, we know this. Ferengi used to use gold as a currency, but gold can be replicated, so it's now worthless (there's actually inconsistency here; in early DS9 Quark says "gold is good!"; then later "there's nothing here but worthless gold!!!").

Replication IS matter from energy. I am, right now, watching an episode of Star Trek Voyager where they state this explicitly. Earlier entries in the timeline, like 'Enterprise' had something called a "protein resequencer", which was more of a 3D-printer-esque thing that required raw materials.

Mining is necessary for the few things that can't be replicated. For example, dilithium, a critical component in most starships - I assume that the showrunners keep dilithium finite so that it's possible for crews to have resource problems from time to time.

So lets go to the source.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Money
I don't accept you as an authority on the subject.
Outside of Earth, money and other forms of currency were still used in the 23rd and 24th century, by the Federation itself, individual Humans, and other Federation species. One form of such currency was the Federation credit.
Ronald D. Moore commented, "By the time I joined TNG, Gene had decreed that money most emphatically did NOT exist in the Federation, nor did 'credits' and that was that. Personally, I've always felt this was a bunch of hooey, but it was one of the rules and that's that." (AOL chat, 1997)
So I stand corrected. But just because YOU stated it does not mean it comes from authority.
Yes it does. :cool:
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Damselbinder wrote:
1 year ago

Yes it does. :cool:
Ok you're the Star Trek boss
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Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
I stand corrected. But just because YOU stated it does not mean it comes from authority.
It'd be really very nice if you lived by this particular little barb.

So yeah no one here said they were 'authorities' on the matter last I checked, but even if we had, neither does Ignoring the information presented you by those more knowledgeable IN RESPONSE to your own damn question on a matter make you a hip scholarly critic. This isn't a college campus, we aren't handing around peer reviewed information back and forth even at the BEST of times. No one here is required to pop in, see your question, then present you a carefully sourced and researched essay. The onus is always on you to do the research yourself if you don't believe someone, which thankfully you've done. You were wrong, just say 'well I'll be damned' and have done with it. No need to sling a final barb in hopes of saving some kind of face. Nobodies upset that you didn't know how Star Treks economy worked. You asked, we answered.
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Femina wrote:
1 year ago
The onus is always on you to do the research yourself if you don't believe someone, which thankfully you've done.
Noooo. The person making the claim has to prove their point. Just drop it.
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Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
Femina wrote:
1 year ago
The onus is always on you to do the research yourself if you don't believe someone, which thankfully you've done.
Noooo. The person making the claim has to prove their point. Just drop it.
Not on a smutty website. Fight me :P
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Wow, Episode 2 is great. High space-opera drama. I especially liked the actor who played the evil Ferengi, Sneed.
And Worf is back. Recommending that everyone check it out.
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Anyone following this series? Such high drama, packed with great moments.
Beverly and Jean-Luc, wow.

Episode 3 is even better than the first two.

And to think about it - this series happens at the bleeding edge of Star Trek time, which means
Spoiler
Here comes the Dominion, roaring back!!
Each successive episode seems to bring *one* element at a time back, from the days when the airwaves were gloriously filled with TNG and DS9.

How did Star Trek return to being so good so quickly, when it has been so bad, for so long?
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It does have a lot of member berries.
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I'm waiting for the Borg to show up with their Armor technology they got from Admiral Janeway!
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Episode 4: Space Squids! (Kind of a throwback to Farpoint.)

Loving the strong classic messages here which Star Trek is known for.
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