Ms. Marvel

Discussions about Movies & TV shows not "Super" related.
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Femina
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Ms. Marvel

Post by Femina »

Anyone out there watching this? It's not reinventing the wheel or nothing which according to who you talk to makes all the difference as though anyone alive anymore is capable of creating something wholly original and unique.... but it is still probably the best Marvel show since Loki. Like all the best marvel things do it has a strong visual identity with cool 'comic book' style artistic flairs, very strong performances by pretty much everyone involved and DARE I SAY IT.... a real look at American Muslim culture on display without accusing the whole world around them of either being monsters or enemies... just a calm, relatable, rational display of a culture that exists to maybe inspire some comrade?

I don't know how I feel about the power situation. She absolutely has a completely different power set and origin in the MCU than the comics, likely as result of Marvel just crapping the bed with the Inhumans show back in the day, but overall if you don't just want NONSTOP ACTION in your Marvel shows but a good character piece about a young lady coming of age alongside some sporadic bursts of superpower comic book drama it's a real good time. It's actually funny, it's very well shot and acted, it's nothing we haven't seen before in one arena or another (outside of perhaps a 'low judgment' look into a subculture), but nothing really IS brand new anymore anyway, we're all just distracting ourselves from the gentle trudge toward apocalypse.

I recommend it to Marvel fans, especially us gals who have probably gone through this kind of junk in our early teens ourselves. Like 'Star Trek Strange New Worlds' this year I feel like anyone who watches this, and lets go of whatever preconceived notions of what they THINK its gonna be, will probably have a fun time with what's actually there.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by sugarcoater »

Okay, have to admit that the line "it is still probably the best Marvel show since Loki" gave me a laugh. Have there been a lot of superhero shows made by Marvel since Loki?
But in all seriousness, thank you for adding this series to my radar. I'll give this one a watch based on your recommendation.

Totally off-topic of this show but on the topic of the comic book Ms. Marvel character, I would have loved to see the black-and-gold costumed Ms. Marvel. Unfortunately, that will never happen with Disney.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Mr. X »

but it is still probably the best Marvel show since Loki
That's not a glowing endorsement.
Star Trek Strange New Worlds
I like SNW cause its more sticking to basic formulas and has good writing. The plots are interesting. Basics DO WORK. Same with Superman and Lois.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Femina »

sugarcoater wrote: 4 days ago Okay, have to admit that the line "it is still probably the best Marvel show since Loki" gave me a laugh. Have there been a lot of superhero shows made by Marvel since Loki?
But in all seriousness, thank you for adding this series to my radar. I'll give this one a watch based on your recommendation.

Totally off-topic of this show but on the topic of the comic book Ms. Marvel character, I would have loved to see the black-and-gold costumed Ms. Marvel. Unfortunately, that will never happen with Disney.
Fair enough... but its also better than 'Falcoln and the winter soldier' which basically means... its like the third best Marvel show. (IMO of course)
Mr. X wrote: 4 days ago
but it is still probably the best Marvel show since Loki
That's not a glowing endorsement.
Depends on who you talk to I guess? But really... ALSO fair enough. Generally Loki's considered somewhere up there with Wandavision for 'best of the marvel shows' but that's certainly no universal truth or anything.
Star Trek Strange New Worlds
I like SNW cause its more sticking to basic formulas and has good writing. The plots are interesting. Basics DO WORK. Same with Superman and Lois.
That's sort of what I mean. Ms. Marvel's not reinventing the wheel of superhero stories here, but its telling a competent and enjoyable one all the same. I'm aware of the Review bombing and whatnot around it... and normally I stay out of those conversations cause I haven't seen the thing with massive flip flopped ratings... but I HAVE seen this one and while it's all perspective I know... this is not a 1/10 'wokefest' show like so many of these reviews are tossing out. There's basically NO political slant whatsoever in the first 3 episodes... just people existing... in relative cultural harmony all around. I think its worth a watch by people to decide for themselves, cause I think anyone who actually watches it and doesn't take our baggage in with us... or is even just willing to corral their baggage will come to grudgingly admit 'nah it's actually okay'

SNW I use as exampIe because I did NOT want to like it. All this new trek stuff around it has been SO bad I was predisposed to LOOK for some reason to dislike it and to judge it VERY harshly... but it defeated that instinct. I think anyone whose honest with themselves would find the same here with this show. It's NOTHING brand new. If you're over superhero stuff its not gonna change your mind... but I think its fine entertainment for anyone who isn't too jaded from a couple decades of superhero stuff.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by shevek »

Femina wrote: 4 days ago this is not a 1/10 'wokefest' show like so many of these reviews are tossing out. There's basically NO political slant whatsoever in the first 3 episodes... just people existing... in relative cultural harmony all around.

If you're over superhero stuff its not gonna change your mind... but I think its fine entertainment for anyone who isn't too jaded from a couple decades of superhero stuff.
I didn't know if we were supposed to talk about this series (even though the actors are all over 18, just like in Stargirl) so I didn't start a thread. But I guess the discussion is on, so I'll offer my two cents. I've only been able to catch the first two episodes so far.

The series is entertaining enough, yes. I enjoyed watching it so far just based on the teenage hi-jinks and the chance to see a goofy version of a Muslim family on TV for once. The comedic approach isn't that different from other ethno-based sitcoms like "The Goldbergs", "Fresh Off Boat" or "Black-ish", really. It's nice that they can have a laugh about the various "social cliques" in the mosque - viewers can relate to that as being not too different from the kind of cliques that exist in high schools.

But you can't say it's not political. Here are some examples:
- Nadia talks about how she learns the history of the "oppressors", and that their history class barely covers Persia or Byzantium.
(Byzantium, by the way, was a Greek-based civilization, so that's a writer fail. Perhaps they actually meant the Ottomans.)
- Nadia gives a whole lecture to Kamala about how she chooses to wear hijab.
- There's a mention of how terrible the British were by Kamala's parents, with regards to the history of the Partition.
- "Latinx" is tossed into the conversation in the school counselor's office.
- There's a mention of the "Halal Gap", which is a contentious issue for Islam in the West (the idea is what Westernized Muslims think is "permissible" varies by quite a wide margin...including things like personal dress, or dating. It's a version of libertinism.)

This is all the kind of stuff that doesn't *need* to be in the series (because it's not relatable or relevant to a mainstream audience)
but was included for diversity points and social capital.

That's only two episodes, so I'm sure there's going to be a lot more of that. Remember this was written by Bisha K. Ali. Look her up.

As for actual superheroine costumes which are halfway decent, well...Kamala's outfit looks ridiculous, so the only bright spot in the first two episodes would be her friend Zoe's cosplay as a sexy Captain Marvel (a shiny snug bodysuit with high-heeled boots). Clear screen grabs are hard to come by, but here's one. It's quite clear in this photo what the contrast is between what Bisha K. Ali is trying to convey, and what a conventional superheroine outfit would look like. The script makes fun of Zoe on purpose.
kamala and zoe.jpg
kamala and zoe.jpg (115.05 KiB) Viewed 412 times
Keep the discussion going, though - the series has just begun, so we might as well banter about it.

Oh, and as for SNW, go over and see that thread.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by brdiy »

There's probably an alternate universe where she is lead character, with the one on the right as her sidekick ... :smart:

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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Femina »

shevek wrote: 4 days ago
But you can't say it's not political. Here are some examples:
- Nadia talks about how she learns the history of the "oppressors", and that their history class barely covers Persia or Byzantium.
(Byzantium, by the way, was a Greek-based civilization, so that's a writer fail. Perhaps they actually meant the Ottomans.)
- Nadia gives a whole lecture to Kamala about how she chooses to wear hijab.
- There's a mention of how terrible the British were by Kamala's parents, with regards to the history of the Partition.
- "Latinx" is tossed into the conversation in the school counselor's office.
- There's a mention of the "Halal Gap", which is a contentious issue for Islam in the West (the idea is what Westernized Muslims think is "permissible" varies by quite a wide margin...including things like personal dress, or dating. It's a version of libertinism.)

This is all the kind of stuff that doesn't *need* to be in the series (because it's not relatable or relevant to a mainstream audience)
but was included for diversity points and social capital.
Relatability or relevance to a mainstream audience is not a requisite for good or enjoyable storytelling nor do they have any inherent connection to what *needs* to be in a story. If it were there would be no American fans of Pokemon. I'm not a dark and brooding vigilante, Batman isn't relevant or relatable to me, we enjoy his films anyway.

I'd argue that Just pointing out 'things that happen' as though that is inherently political is a symptom of searching too hard for politics. These are all things that are relevant to the lives of the average human being in the culture and part of the world these characters inhabit, Kamala lives in this culture, naturally they occur around her. I also think its disingenuous to instantly label them all 'here for diversity points and social capitol' just because they turn up in passing or are occurring in the backdrop.

Or put it this way. Do we label it a bunch of 'political stuff' not relatable or relevant whenever Daredevil goes and begs advise from his catholic priest? NO of course not! It's part of the character's life! The show isn't going 'BE CATHOLIC YOU VIEWERS!' It's simply illustrating that Catholicism is part of what makes Matt Murdock who he is. The things you pointed out aren't advertising to the audience 'DO THESE THINGS!!!' from a politically motivated slant, they are simply extant and inform who Kamala is... like Matt Murdocks Catholicism... or the Red Skulls Reich, or Magneto having come from the Nazi Concentration camps.

The barest mention or even DEEP DIVE of a culture isn't 'politics' just because its THERE or spoken about. Narratives are political only when they are PREACHING at you. Ms. Marvel isn't preaching anything, it's just SHOWING while a story is occurring within the setting. If you find that to be 'needless politics' then I got bad news for you... you probably shouldn't be watching any television or movies anywhere because by that curriculum EVERYTHING is woke trash.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Mr. X »

I mean is it a bunch of political stuff not relatable or relevant whenever Daredevil goes and begs advise from his catholic priest?
I know I'm going to regret this but there is the idea of playing to the audience. A "catholic" audience is going to be much larger than a muslim one. Plus, after Afghanistan I don't think everyone is warm and fuzzy and hugging each other.

I don't get the attitude by some that everything is a public utility in which all things are evenly distributed and represented. Life is not a box of equal sized crayons. There are markets. S. Korean TV will most likely have a lot of S. Korean-ee type stuff in it. Same with China.

Its not a big deal this stuff is in there too me but this attitude everything is evenly spread peanut butter is not realistic. And its pretty apparent, representation does NOT sell.

One other thing is, like with the movie Gods of Egypt, a bunch of westerners trying to make comments about Islam culture probably looks silly and messed up to actual Muslims. Might be better not to stick a foot in it. Stay in their own lane.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by sugarcoater »

Perhaps it comes down to how the material is presented. From what I've seen, certain cultural topics are consistently praised, other cultural topics are simply mentioned. And as been evidenced, Disney has gone woke so they will have their own agenda to push. In almost the entire entertainment industry, someone moderate or conservative will probably feel preached to and lectured at; someone progressive or woke will feel supported and praised.
But in regard to showing various cultures, so long as they are not pitted against one another in a general sense, the exposure to various cultures--if well done--is interesting and adds layers to characters. But when it's contrived, it's irritating and creates one-dimensional characters.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Femina »

Mr. X wrote: 4 days ago
I mean is it a bunch of political stuff not relatable or relevant whenever Daredevil goes and begs advise from his catholic priest?
I know I'm going to regret this but there is the idea of playing to the audience. A "catholic" audience is going to be much larger than a muslim one. Plus, after Afghanistan I don't think everyone is warm and fuzzy and hugging each other.

I don't get the attitude by some that everything is a public utility in which all things are evenly distributed and represented. Life is not a box of equal sized crayons. There are markets. S. Korean TV will most likely have a lot of S. Korean-ee type stuff in it. Same with China.

Its not a big deal this stuff is in there too me but this attitude everything is evenly spread peanut butter is not realistic. And its pretty apparent, representation does NOT sell.

One other thing is, like with the movie Gods of Egypt, a bunch of westerners trying to make comments about Islam culture probably looks silly and messed up to actual Muslims. Might be better not to stick a foot in it. Stay in their own lane.
I'm not sure we're on the same wavelength of discussion here?

Let me be very clear as to my intent in starting this topic. I watched it. I thought it was good. No one was talking about it... so I brought attention to it because I think its good.

I'm not talking about markets. I'm not talking about silly metaphorical buzzphrase crayon boxes or peanut butter. I don't need to ponder as to why a show about a character from a certain subculture is primarily marketable to said subculture. That's neither here nor there. Marketability, distribution, the 'train tracks' of production have no bearing whatsoever on if a thing is GOOD or not. Jurassic World 3 is marketable and well distributed... it's shit.

I don't care about what sells. SELLING isn't quality... it's distribution.

No crayons! No boxes! No Peanut Butter! The show exists.... it's ALREADY a crayon. No one's crying that it didn't become a crayon!

I watched a show. Show was good. People aren't talking about show. So I brought it up.... hope that clears up my intent.
sugarcoater wrote: 4 days ago Perhaps it comes down to how the material is presented. From what I've seen, certain cultural topics are consistently praised, other cultural topics are simply mentioned. And as been evidenced, Disney has gone woke so they will have their own agenda to push. In almost the entire entertainment industry, someone moderate or conservative will probably feel preached to and lectured at; someone progressive or woke will feel supported and praised.
But in regard to showing various cultures, so long as they are not pitted against one another in a general sense, the exposure to various cultures--if well done--is interesting and adds layers to characters. But when it's contrived, it's irritating and creates one-dimensional characters.
Precisely. IMO Ms. Marvel is a show that simply PRESENTS the culture as it exists around Kamala in precisely the same way as (mentioned above in a different context) Catholicism happens to exist AROUND Matt Murdock. It's not what the shows about, it's not preaching the culture to you, it isn't selling that to you, (Outside of obviously wanting to sell 'Kamala' to you as a character of course). It's all just there for us to see in the backdrop as the story unfolds and we can come to our own conclusions about it. IMO this is the best way to show other cultures to people.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by shevek »

Femina wrote: 4 days ago The barest mention or even DEEP DIVE of a culture isn't 'politics' just because its THERE or spoken about. Narratives are political only when they are PREACHING at you. Ms. Marvel isn't preaching anything, it's just SHOWING while a story is occurring within the setting. If you find that to be 'needless politics' then I got bad news for you... you probably shouldn't be watching any television or movies anywhere because by that curriculum EVERYTHING is woke trash.
Since I thought I was being clear but apparently I wasn't, let me be even clearer:

There is culture, and there is politics.

Culture enriches the story. Things like 1) Pakistani food, language and dress (and yes, that includes the wearing of hijab); 2) Muslim prayer; 3) mosque cliques - those things infuse a show with culture. They make it deeper and more resplendent, and are universally relevant, even if they still seem "exotic" to the mainstream viewer, because they are completely unobjectionable, and mostly quite relatable. With this kind of content, the purpose is to *unite* the audience. This is the reason everyone watched Sesame Street (for example), from the kids in the poshest mansions to the kids in the poorest ghettos.

Politics slants the story. Things like 1) The British are bad; 2) The West are the oppressors but Persia and Turkey are awesome; 3) "Latinx" is a term that you must use; 4) hijabis are feminist, etc are biased opinions. Many mainstream viewers will find these things directly objectionable, or at least highly unnecessary, because they simply don't believe in those conclusions. With this kind of content, the purpose is to *divide* the audience. Those that agree with the conclusions are good; those who object are bad. And that's why large segments of the audience walk away from content which they perceive as being antithetical to their values.

All that being said, we're only two episodes in. Let's see what else Bisha K. Ali throws at us.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Mr. X »

Doesn't matter. I won't watch it. The punch bowl is tainted.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Femina »

Mr. X wrote: 4 days ago Doesn't matter. I won't watch it. The punch bowl is tainted.
I'm super shocked. I guess this is the last we can expect to hear from you about this then? Having no cups or spreadable condiments' or Crayola boxes invested here.

I'm gonna talk to the person who actually watched it now.
shevek wrote: 4 days ago Politics slants the story. Things like 1) The British are bad; 2) The West are the oppressors but Persia and Turkey are awesome; 3) "Latinx" is a term that you must use; 4) hijabis are feminist, etc are biased opinions. Many mainstream viewers will find these things directly objectionable, or at least highly unnecessary, because they simply don't believe in those conclusions. With this kind of content, the purpose is to *divide* the audience. Those that agree with the conclusions are good; those who object are bad. And that's why large segments of the audience walk away from content which they perceive as being antithetical to their values.

All that being said, we're only two episodes in. Let's see what else Bisha K. Ali throws at us.
I mean... I Fail to recognize the connection between what the mainstream don't believe in, understand, or even find objectionable has to do with their necessity or value to a story? In fact I think I reject the notion outright. Again I'm not talking about marketability here. I didn't bring the show up to ponder its relevance in the mainstream... I don't CARE what sells or what the Mainstream 'thinks' it wants or doesn't want outside of when mainstream notice can help the things that I like remain active and acquirable... and neither do most members of the Mainstream.

The mainstream is made up of individuals, the 'monolith' of the mainstream is more of an abstract idea. ALL of us are part of, and not part of, the mainstream. We all dip into and out of it as our interests prescribe... and its interests shift and alter as fads... it is not a qualifier for the value or 'need' of anything... its just a conceptual space that we can theoretically all attain access to with minimal effort. We like to protect it because EVERYONE goes there, but otherwise has no more relevance to what we like or think is good.

Do you recognize the irony of devaluing anything that isn't recognized or relevant to the mainstream ON the topic thread of a niche website about superheroine peril absolutely not relevant and utterly objectionable to the mainstream?

Not IGNORING... just not responding to the rest cause I dun want this to droop into a politics fest which I'm sure you understand. We're not supposed to talk about politics so better to not jab at each other over it. I only mentioned politics to illustrate that I didn't feel this show was all too heavy on them for the viewers who juuuuuuust caaaaan't stand politics. If you disagree on that central baseline alone and want your two cents noted that's fine... but I'm just not going to let us fall into discussion of whether the British are perceived as bad here, whether Latinx and hijabis are good or bad things... that's a road to getting the whole topic thread frozen suffice it to say I don't feel the show was preaching any of this to us, I feel like it was just showing people in the community talking about things relevant to what they naturally would and leaving it to the audience to think what they like. 'soft politics'
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by IMSancho »

I watched the first episode last weekend. I just found it kind of hard to follow.

The main actress is really cute (and 19 IRL). I will say that.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by shevek »

Well, if this show indulges in 'soft politics' (as Femina says), then it continued to do so in Episode 3 about as much as in the two previous ones. The good news is that it also continued to convey quite a bit of culture as well.
Spoiler
Politics:
- The British Army coming in to destroy the temple site where the bangle was found.
- The 'Danger Control' agents used as a stand-in for government intrusions into mosques.
- Nadia mentioning the "good Muslim/bad Muslim" tactic that government surveillance uses to keep tabs on possible terrorism.

Culture:
- The 'mehndi' (pre-wedding party with the hiding of the shoes, and the application of lots of henna to women's feet).
- The 'Lollywood' (that's the Pakistani movie industry, based in Lahore) dance number at Aamir's wedding. Not surprising, since they did pretty much the same kind of dance routine with the character Kingo in 'Eternals'.
- The 'djinn'. The moment they said that word, I knew that the djinn would be the bad guys. Being pre-Islamic demons from the Jahiliyya, they are *never* considered a good force in Islam, and they are definitively haram.
(That's why when I created 'Jinniyya' for Heroineburgh, I made her a Christian Arab, so we could sidestep that issue and create the kind of 'good genie' we hear about in Persian folk tales...or on television played by Barbara Eden.)

Easter eggs:
Multiple self-inserts by the co-creator of Ms. Marvel, Sana Amanat. Not only is Kamala's grandmother from Karachi named 'Sana',
but Amanat herself appears clearly in the wedding scene at 29:08 when the camera zooms in on her.
The whole thing was certainly entertaining, even if the story seemed a bit chaotic and unfocused.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by sensualbarbarian »

It's a very cute show. Im just not feeling the reworked origin.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by theScribbler »

Yep, cute show. 100% non political show centered around Pakistani-American teenager coming of age in a world where superheroes exist and she's becoming one of them.

Watching without fuglyburgh asinine confirmation bias makes for a good time watching this show, and for that matter, any superhero/heroine show.
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:christmastree:
If U C Xmas tree on TV show
it's Xmas Activism! :christmas:

:lynda1:
If U C attractive brunette in a movie

it's Dark Haired Women Activism!

Be very careful!
Don't B indoctrinated!
Cover your eyes! & ears!
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by sugarcoater »

For spits and giggles, perhaps we can start a thread ranking shows and movies with overt activism and wokeness. If nothing else, it could create a basis of commonalities in this topic of discussion. Clearly a number of shows and movies have insinuated, and at times overt, agenda-driven material placed into their stories. And then there are some in which people might read into the stories more than was ever intended.

Just a thought for a potentially interesting discussion.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Damselbinder »

sugarcoater wrote: 2 days ago For spits and giggles, perhaps we can start a thread ranking shows and movies with overt activism and wokeness. If nothing else, it could create a basis of commonalities in this topic of discussion. Clearly a number of shows and movies have insinuated, and at times overt, agenda-driven material placed into their stories. And then there are some in which people might read into the stories more than was ever intended.

Just a thought for a potentially interesting discussion.
No, that would be an absolute fucking dumpster-fire.
A full list of my stories can be found here, with summaries to boot: viewtopic.php?f=70&t=32027
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by sugarcoater »

My favorite instigator Damnselbinder says no.
But why the concern as people can avoid reading posts. You don't want any part of it? Just ignore one solitary thread on one solitary website.
As analyzing discussions with those who have opposing or different perspectives can lead greater insight, seems like there might be some value in the discussion on the topic. Staying in our ideological bubbles and ingesting information only from sources that confirm our bias doesn't really do much for diverse or refined perspectives. I know it's not easy to take in opposing views, but it seems worthwhile to try and see other perspectives. Diversity is valuable.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Damselbinder »

History will vindicate me.
A full list of my stories can be found here, with summaries to boot: viewtopic.php?f=70&t=32027
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Mr. X »

I agree with Damselbinder. The people who stuck this stuff into shows won't change. Pointless to discuss it. It will be a screaming match between disgruntled people and Jake Sullys.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by sugarcoater »

Fair enough, as a discussion obviously can't be had with just one or two people. It's just that Shevek, Damselbinder and others regularly engage in discussions of culture and wokeness (history will vindicate me on this point;) so a thread to share perspectives and try to debate the topics in a respectful manner would be useful. But as history will further vindicate for me, Shevek, Damselbinder and others will bring this topic up in the future for other shows and movies. The subject-matter just seems like one in need of a quality discussion if it's going to repeatedly present itself in various threads going forward as it has repeatedly in threads in the past.
That all said, I'll leave it there and return to checking the thread on specific aspects of Ms. Marvel.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Dogfish »

I'm kind of wary of the Marvel shows now. After Wandavision was essentially overwritten by Dr Strange 2 I'm starting to suspect that they won't count as far as whatever goes on in the movies is concerned. Not that this renders a show completely pointless, but it does sever the connection to the MCU as a whole, and thus dim my interest.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by theScribbler »

Dogfish wrote: 2 days ago I'm kind of wary of the Marvel shows now. After Wandavision was essentially overwritten by Dr Strange 2 I'm starting to suspect that they won't count as far as whatever goes on in the movies is concerned. Not that this renders a show completely pointless, but it does sever the connection to the MCU as a whole, and thus dim my interest.
I don't see how W was overwritten by DS2.

Anyway, as The Marvels movie is coming out July 28, 2023 featuring Ms. Marvel from this limited series show (and her mom, dad and brother), and Captain Marvel (Brie), and Monica Rambeau from Wandavision, I don't mind learning some things about this MCU Ms. Marvel before seeing that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marvels
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Femina »

sugarcoater wrote: 2 days ago Fair enough, as a discussion obviously can't be had with just one or two people. It's just that Shevek, Damselbinder and others regularly engage in discussions of culture and wokeness (history will vindicate me on this point;) so a thread to share perspectives and try to debate the topics in a respectful manner would be useful. But as history will further vindicate for me, Shevek, Damselbinder and others will bring this topic up in the future for other shows and movies. The subject-matter just seems like one in need of a quality discussion if it's going to repeatedly present itself in various threads going forward as it has repeatedly in threads in the past.
That all said, I'll leave it there and return to checking the thread on specific aspects of Ms. Marvel.
The main problem with the idea is actually what's so great about people... it is our individuality. There is no respectful manner to discuss these differences on this website because no matter how many calm and rational people you can cook up to do just that... you can't ever avoid the individual whose just there to fight (and no judgments on this, EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING has woken up some day in the past and just chosen violence, it happens).

We've learned this lesson time and time again, which is why we don't have them. It's why when we even use the word politics here, it's often to make it clear we don't WANT to broach the subject in the interest of investigating each others politics and are speaking about the concept of politics itself. I brought this show up and my only mention of politics was that I felt the show was light on them for the style of 'in-depth look at a culture' television show that it is... and I stand by that statement, I was clear if someone wanted to disagree and say 'no you're wrong there's actually some politics here' that was their prerogative, but that there wasn't going to be any in depth discussions happening here on the tidbits of politics that anyone might want to discuss... because history proves we can't do that here.

Ms. Marvel is a good show, it is centered in a culture most of us don't have a great understanding of... and it seems happy to SHOW it to us without preaching what the viewer should be doing. I LIKE that sort of thing, I feel its actually the BEST way to introduce people to new cultures and the way that most breeds understanding and unity... That's my two cents on the matter. If anyone wants their two cents to be 'no but there's actually politics so be forewarned' that is perfectly acceptable. I would nevertheless suggest no one begin long winded, partisan buzzphrase laden monologues about each point therein and why their side is right on the matter ANYWHERE on this website.

......
WARNING: Political Rant inbound, please ignore.
Spoiler
Especially on this day where the supreme court have decided to remove one of our freedoms in many states to make abortion illegal, many of which have also begun taking aim at contraceptives. If baby making fuck slaves is what our strong American men want, they're making a commendable effort! I sincerely wonder how quickly these assholes would drop the issue if a single one of them were ever forced to suffer through a menstrual cycle without medication. I also strongly suspect they feel like its still their god given rights to fuck and bounce, ditching their victims with the extra mouths to feed free and clear. Fuck you anyone who votes against contraceptives and your spoiled fucking penises........ all you penis's who don't mind women using contraceptives are still alright in my book though.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Dogfish »

theScribbler wrote: 2 days ago
Dogfish wrote: 2 days ago I'm kind of wary of the Marvel shows now. After Wandavision was essentially overwritten by Dr Strange 2 I'm starting to suspect that they won't count as far as whatever goes on in the movies is concerned. Not that this renders a show completely pointless, but it does sever the connection to the MCU as a whole, and thus dim my interest.
I don't see how W was overwritten by DS2.

Anyway, as The Marvels movie is coming out July 28, 2023 featuring Ms. Marvel from this limited series show (and her mom, dad and brother), and Captain Marvel (Brie), and Monica Rambeau from Wandavision, I don't mind learning some things about this MCU Ms. Marvel before seeing that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marvels
The plot of WandaVision was 'Wanda breaks bad and tries to get herself a family and happy life, then realises that this is wrong and goes to get her head right in isolation'. The plot of Dr Strange 2 is 'WandaVision 2, this time she's killing everybody'.

The character development from WandaVision is erased.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Femina »

Dogfish wrote: 1 day ago
theScribbler wrote: 2 days ago
Dogfish wrote: 2 days ago I'm kind of wary of the Marvel shows now. After Wandavision was essentially overwritten by Dr Strange 2 I'm starting to suspect that they won't count as far as whatever goes on in the movies is concerned. Not that this renders a show completely pointless, but it does sever the connection to the MCU as a whole, and thus dim my interest.
I don't see how W was overwritten by DS2.

Anyway, as The Marvels movie is coming out July 28, 2023 featuring Ms. Marvel from this limited series show (and her mom, dad and brother), and Captain Marvel (Brie), and Monica Rambeau from Wandavision, I don't mind learning some things about this MCU Ms. Marvel before seeing that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marvels
The plot of WandaVision was 'Wanda breaks bad and tries to get herself a family and happy life, then realises that this is wrong and goes to get her head right in isolation'. The plot of Dr Strange 2 is 'WandaVision 2, this time she's killing everybody'.

The character development from WandaVision is erased.
Spoiler
Yeah she learned her lessons about how hurting, and enslaving people in Wandavision was bad... and then basically IMMEDIATELY turned around and started violently murdering people instead... in seriously psychotic ways. I'd say Wandavision was pretty spectacularly ignored.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Mr. X »

Spoiler
They could have added a wee bit to this story and have the first demon be the ONLY version of that demon in all the multiverse. He's locked away in a dimension. He sees Earth 616 Wanda as someone powerful enough and reading the book to use. So he manipulates her emotions and tells her she can save her children if she gets them to his dimension. That would explain why there isn't an infinite number of Wanda's trying to get children. Chavez is the only person who can open that prison dimension.

This would explain her behavior and have an ultimate bad guy reveal.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by theScribbler »

Femina wrote: 1 day ago
Dogfish wrote: 1 day ago
theScribbler wrote: 2 days ago
Dogfish wrote: 2 days ago I'm kind of wary of the Marvel shows now. After Wandavision was essentially overwritten by Dr Strange 2 I'm starting to suspect that they won't count as far as whatever goes on in the movies is concerned. Not that this renders a show completely pointless, but it does sever the connection to the MCU as a whole, and thus dim my interest.
I don't see how W was overwritten by DS2.

Anyway, as The Marvels movie is coming out July 28, 2023 featuring Ms. Marvel from this limited series show (and her mom, dad and brother), and Captain Marvel (Brie), and Monica Rambeau from Wandavision, I don't mind learning some things about this MCU Ms. Marvel before seeing that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marvels
The plot of WandaVision was 'Wanda breaks bad and tries to get herself a family and happy life, then realises that this is wrong and goes to get her head right in isolation'. The plot of Dr Strange 2 is 'WandaVision 2, this time she's killing everybody'.

The character development from WandaVision is erased.
Spoiler
Yeah she learned her lessons about how hurting, and enslaving people in Wandavision was bad... and then basically IMMEDIATELY turned around and started violently murdering people instead... in seriously psychotic ways. I'd say Wandavision was pretty spectacularly ignored.
Spoiler
Well sort of...at end of Wandavision Wanda 'goes to get her head right in isolation' but she took the Darkhold with her. We learn this in the after credit scene which reveals her to be not really getting her head right but actually reading, studying the Darkhold. The Darkhold exacts a heavy toll (Dr. Strange said) and while they didn't show how much time she spent reading it, learning from it, I assumed it was the Darkhold that corrupted her in the interim between Wandavision and DS2.

Was also the scene when Xavier got into Wanda's/Scarlet Witch's mind and found the good Wanda in a small cave hole and as Xavier was reaching to get her out that red Scarlet Witch smoke came in behind him to put a stop to that.

That was my interpretation while watching DS2
.
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:christmastree:
If U C Xmas tree on TV show
it's Xmas Activism! :christmas:

:lynda1:
If U C attractive brunette in a movie

it's Dark Haired Women Activism!

Be very careful!
Don't B indoctrinated!
Cover your eyes! & ears!
:tv:
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Femina »

theScribbler wrote: 1 day ago
Femina wrote: 1 day ago
Dogfish wrote: 1 day ago
theScribbler wrote: 2 days ago
Dogfish wrote: 2 days ago I'm kind of wary of the Marvel shows now. After Wandavision was essentially overwritten by Dr Strange 2 I'm starting to suspect that they won't count as far as whatever goes on in the movies is concerned. Not that this renders a show completely pointless, but it does sever the connection to the MCU as a whole, and thus dim my interest.
I don't see how W was overwritten by DS2.

Anyway, as The Marvels movie is coming out July 28, 2023 featuring Ms. Marvel from this limited series show (and her mom, dad and brother), and Captain Marvel (Brie), and Monica Rambeau from Wandavision, I don't mind learning some things about this MCU Ms. Marvel before seeing that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marvels
The plot of WandaVision was 'Wanda breaks bad and tries to get herself a family and happy life, then realises that this is wrong and goes to get her head right in isolation'. The plot of Dr Strange 2 is 'WandaVision 2, this time she's killing everybody'.

The character development from WandaVision is erased.
Spoiler
Yeah she learned her lessons about how hurting, and enslaving people in Wandavision was bad... and then basically IMMEDIATELY turned around and started violently murdering people instead... in seriously psychotic ways. I'd say Wandavision was pretty spectacularly ignored.
Spoiler
Well sort of...at end of Wandavision Wanda 'goes to get her head right in isolation' but she took the Darkhold with her. We learn this in the after credit scene which reveals her to be not really getting her head right but actually reading, studying the Darkhold. The Darkhold exacts a heavy toll (Dr. Strange said) and while they didn't show how much time she spent reading it, learning from it, I assumed it was the Darkhold that corrupted her in the interim between Wandavision and DS2.

Was also the scene when Xavier got into Wanda's/Scarlet Witch's mind and found the good Wanda in a small cave hole and as Xavier was reaching to get her out that red Scarlet Witch smoke came in behind him to put a stop to that.

That was my interpretation while watching DS2
.
Spoiler
That's the Wanda whose body she's stolen, not Scarlet Witch Wanda's psyche.
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Re: Ms. Marvel

Post by Bronson881 »

Have seen the show and so far, I like it. Its also nice to see another culture played not as they are thought of but how they are.
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