Black Widow trailer

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theScribbler
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Black Widow did sell. #4 box office domestic.

Yes, Spiderman did awesome. #1 box office.

If Ghost Busters did awesome, then Black Widow did more than double awesome. Altho GB is still in theaters in 2022, so might get closer to 50% of BW's awesomeness.

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Just saw this. Not surprised, but the bigger message got lost in the headline:
Sony (with Spider-Man, Venom, and Ghostbusters) did better in 2021 than Disney did...
Debatable.

deadline.com/2022/01/domestic-box-office-2021-marketshare-disney-sony

Not mentioned in this article tho:
Disney's Marvel gets 25% of Spider-Man NWH profits as they paid for 25% of its production costs.
And Disney gets all Spider-Man merchandising (toys, clothes, etc.)
- in fact, Sony won the box office race two years in a row.
Two pandemic years in a row.

2020, a huge asterisk year when theaters were closed more months than open.

2021, well yeah, Spider-man would've led anyway probably, but being part of the MCU helped a lot, as did being the MCU first multiverse theatrical movie and Dr. Strange making that happen. What would Spider-man 3 Tom Holland be without the MCU. No inherited Tony Stark tech. He'd probably have fought Kraven I guess. Probably do OK, but a lot less fun.

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Physically, it is perfectly possible to walk both up and down a hill, and visit all the houses located in between the valley and the peak. I live on just such a hill, and do it almost every day, both metaphorically *and* in reality.
Femina didn't say up and down a hill. She said: "Alas, t'is impossible to walk uphill both directions." When the lightbulb goes on, be sure to let us know.
the Scribbler

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If U C Xmas tree on TV show
it's Xmas Activism! :christmas:

:lynda1:
If U C attractive brunette in a movie

it's Dark Haired Women Activism!

Be very careful!
Don't B indoctrinated!
Cover your eyes! & ears!
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Femina
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
yeah lets just stick to Black widow. Didn't sell. And we know its not about covid cause Spiderman and Ghost busters did awesome. They just put in zero effort on BW. They should have done her and Barton in Budapest.
This is a GROSS oversimplification? Spiderman and Ghost Buster's did fine cause they are much further out into the 'we no longer care about getting sick' portion of the pandemic after theaters had been open and remained open for most of the year. Theaters had BARELY opened again from months of being shut down when Black Widow came out.

Those are necessary factors for analysis... you gotta look at ALL the factors not just the ones that are convenient for spewing bullshit.

Edit: For the record, I'm not saying BW did GOOD at the box office? I'm saying we have no decent framework at all to decide how well it did or did not due considering the outlying factors of the time it was released. NO movies were doing well in that timeframe... period. Movies are just recently starting to do well again in THIS timeframe... NOW is not THEN... and the status quo has not been stable enough between then and now for the two to make for acceptable basis for THIS sort of comparison.
ivandobsky
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shevek wrote:
2 years ago
It's not hip to be corporate, by definition. Huey Lewis' "Hip to Be Square" is supposed to be sarcastic.
Huey Lewis' "Hip to Be Square" is not just about the pleasures of conformity, and the importance of trends, it's also a personal statement about the band itself.

It's hard to say what numbers that film would have done were it not for the dreaded coof, but I agree with the general sentiment that sex sells, at least to me. It seems that hollywood movies are designed by comittee, rooms full of people who feel they have to say something to justify their being there and getting paid, but without having anything that insightful coming to mind. Perhaps in the past, such people would say "can we make it sexier", but people know better than to say that these days and remain living in the style to which they have become accustomed. Instead such unimaginative people say "can we make it less sexy", and fail upwards.
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Femina
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ivandobsky wrote:
2 years ago
It's hard to say what numbers that film would have done were it not for the dreaded coof, but I agree with the general sentiment that sex sells, at least to me. It seems that hollywood movies are designed by comittee, rooms full of people who feel they have to say something to justify their being there and getting paid, but without having anything that insightful coming to mind. Perhaps in the past, such people would say "can we make it sexier", but people know better than to say that these days and remain living in the style to which they have become accustomed. Instead such unimaginative people say "can we make it less sexy", and fail upwards.
I think its pretty clear that sex sells... to a point. It sells up to a line and then fails to sell beyond it... there are in fact, MANY people who can't watch anything with actual sex in it for psychological and traumatic reasons (but I would also consider that a 'line' dynamic)... It's been my experience that if you sell your movie ON SEX.... than it doesn't tend to make a billion dollars... and everyone today wants their movie to make a billion dollars.
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Mr. X
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Femina wrote:
2 years ago

This is a GROSS oversimplification? Spiderman and Ghost Buster's did fine cause they are much further out into the 'we no longer care about getting sick' portion of the pandemic after theaters had been open and remained open for most of the year. Theaters had BARELY opened again from months of being shut down when Black Widow came out.
If its just relaxing from covid then all other movies would be doing better like Eternals. We're not seeing that. Also we're not relaxing from Covid. New rounds of mandates, Australian become a nightmare. Spiderman out sold BW, 7 rings and Eternals combined supposedly. There is such a thing as an objectively good movie. Even you said BW wasn't that good.
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Mr. X
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Femina wrote:
2 years ago
I think its pretty clear that sex sells... to a point. It sells up to a line and then fails to sell beyond it... there are in fact, MANY people who can't watch anything with actual sex in it for psychological and traumatic reasons (but I would also consider that a 'line' dynamic)... It's been my experience that if you sell your movie ON SEX.... than it doesn't tend to make a billion dollars... and everyone today wants their movie to make a billion dollars.
I agree. If sex sells as a driving point then Wonder Woman, Power Girl would be the number one comic sellers. They are not.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/369 ... h-america/
Batman, Spiderman and star wars.
ivandobsky
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Femina wrote:
2 years ago
I think its pretty clear that sex sells... to a point. It sells up to a line and then fails to sell beyond it... there are in fact, MANY people who can't watch anything with actual sex in it
I don't mean sexy sexy sex. I just mean sexiness. Sexiness combined with a half decent story, action etc is what gets my bum in the seat.
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Mr. X
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What's wrong with just admitting BW wasn't all that great and didn't make much money? Except for some witty banter it wasn't very interesting. Why do people have such an emotional investment in this?
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Hope springs eternal. Fans keep hoping that we get what we want.

Remember when they were going to do a Catwoman spin off with Michelle Pfieffer and then we got that Catwoman movie that only le[t the title and ditched the character? Or the Halle Berry spin off of her Jinx CIA agent from James Bond? We dodged a flop with that one. They cut their losses after the failed Wonder Woman TV series pilot.

After years of speculation after the initial; announcement ... we get a pale imitation of what could have been done.
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Mr. X
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I think whenever the premise of a movie is its a woman or a trans or a gay or a lesbian or a minority as your sales point the movie almost always fails. Black Panther did well because it wasn't billed as "now james bond is black". It was billed as the already established Marvel story.

BW should stand on its own and not "its a woman's turn".

I'm curious if BW or 2016 Ghostbusters were successes would people blame the current movie going environment or cause it was women? I can't think of anything that was a success cause it was some group's "turn".
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Femina wrote:
2 years ago
I'm saying we have no decent framework at all to decide how well it did or did not due considering the outlying factors of the time it was released.
So what does that mean in terms of the number of pages of regurgitated political fixation overwhelming any other discussion before this thread gets locked?
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Femina
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Imagineer wrote:
2 years ago
Femina wrote:
2 years ago
I'm saying we have no decent framework at all to decide how well it did or did not due considering the outlying factors of the time it was released.
So what does that mean in terms of the number of pages of regurgitated political fixation overwhelming any other discussion before this thread gets locked?
Nothing? That has nothing whatsoever to do with box office returns which is why I didn't talk about it. I didn't resurrect the thread anyhow.
Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
What's wrong with just admitting BW wasn't all that great and didn't make much money? Except for some witty banter it wasn't very interesting. Why do people have such an emotional investment in this?
Eh? I'm definitely not trying to arguing it is either of those things. In terms of if it were 'great' I wouldn't say it was BAD.... it was a Marvel movie, an entertaining two hours of which only a FEW elevate from entertaining to even 'good' much less 'GREAT' (There's maybe two marvel movies that are GREAT) but BW is no more or LESS entertaining than most of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. IMO of course. There are certainly WORSE films in the MCU. I certainly know at least a few people who are fairly fond of and excited about the new Black Widow.

It DEFINATELY didn't make much money compared to an ordinary Marvel movie, I think that's just FACT... my only point was that its reception is not comparable with Spiderman's box office returns. There ARE lots of comparisons and analysis that CAN be made about theater performances across the board since the time of their opening to now... but since theaters haven't been in a stable situation for almost two years going, I maintain that comparing the returns of a film that released today with one that released basically when theaters FIRST reopened isn't a stable basis for comparison for basically ANY argument about ANY two films released on this timetable.

So just bluntly, my stance is that without a more stable theater industry to act as a through line I don't believe that box office returns are a reliable way to gauge the reception of these particular film releases.

Spider-Man didn't even come to Disney+ Premium or whatever? The situation surrounding both movies release are incompatible integers with no measurable 'control' in the middle.
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People shouldn't care about box office numbers. Dredd is the best comic book movie in decades, did it make money? No. It is better than Endgame but nobody went to the cinema for it. Meanwhile Transformers movies get good box office numbers.


Context matters too. Black Widow was backstory for a character who is already dead. Spiderman is a big deal, a Spiderman movie with Dr Strange is up there right now with an Avengers movie in terms of its importance to the ongoing series.
Some MCU movies you can skip, they are like interesting footnotes, fleshing out the references and whatnot but not key to the ongoing saga, Black Widow was one of those, to be honest self contained movies are. Like the kung fu sonic the hedgehog guy one.
Spiderman No Way Home by contrast was clearly billed as The Big Thing, two years after Endgame, tying together all sorts of threads from Wandavision, Loki, Dr Strange, and not just this Spiderman but all the others and even Venom. It was a huge deal, must-watch for MCU fans, and they had to go to the cinema for it.


Ultimately though just enjoy what you enjoy, expect the worst from Hollywood because they're not just aiming their movies at the lowest common denominator any more but the lowest common denominator in China instead. So it's not just movie making by committee, it's movie making by multinational committee, with the censors of a superpower and a dozen petty despots leering at them.
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