"Fan Disservice", a term coined by Youtuber "Vee"

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shevek
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I have to admit - I am simply not a gamer, and never have been. Which disqualifies me from talking about the mechanics and contents of games with which I am largely unfamiliar.

However, there are plenty of aspects in the video-game world which are simply visually self-evident.
Everyone knows about the term "fan service", whether it's used in gaming or other pursuits of pop culture.

Now, Youtuber Vee ("Romanian TVee") has coined the term "fan disservice" to describe a trend that's been going on for several years
in game development. And it's a trend which is definitely relevant to discussions on this forum about the changing approaches to aesthetic depictions. As a result of coining the term "fan disservice", the first video he made about it went viral, and drew way more views than most of the other recent uploads on his channel. So people were definitely interested in his observations.

So, watch Vee's video and see if you agree with his assessment. I think the discussion can remain polite and constructive. Hopefully.

Damselbinder

As a point of information, he did not coin this expression. It has been in use for at least a decade.

As for the content of the video itself, you can't make a claim about the overall artistic/ideological trends of a massive industry over years, and with the release of hundreds of titles, with the scant evidence presented here. This is something that would require exhaustive analysis, comparison with trends in previous years, and extensive discussion of the alternative explanations for the phenomenon this person is claiming exists, even if it exists. It would be a task for an academic sociologist. Does that mean this person can't expound his views? Certainly not. But as far as proving his thesis goes, it's a drop in the ocean.
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Damselbinder wrote:
2 years ago
As a point of information, he did not coin this expression. It has been in use for at least a decade.

As for the content of the video itself, you can't make a claim about the overall artistic/ideological trends of a massive industry over years, and with the release of hundreds of titles, with the scant evidence presented here. This is something that would require exhaustive analysis, comparison with trends in previous years, and extensive discussion of the alternative explanations for the phenomenon this person is claiming exists, even if it exists. It would be a task for an academic sociologist. Does that mean this person can't expound his views? Certainly not. But as far as proving his thesis goes, it's a drop in the ocean.
Yes I agree just like there are no homophobic, sexist, white male over representation or racist themes running in the video game industry or their work environments and there are no exhaustive studies by sociologists showing this. Nobody is under represented.
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Made it through four minutes before concluding that he's unwatchably annoying and about a tenth as clever as he thinks he is. Peter Griffin's parody "Grinds My Gears" bit on Family Guy was the last of this kind of video content that ever needed to be made.
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shevek
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Well, at least things have remained fairly polite and constructive.

Although Damselbinder's statement that no statements can be made about pop cultural trends unless an academic sociologist makes them is a bit ironic, if only for the strong likelihood that academic theories escaping the ivory tower and spreading into pop culture via widespread application is likely what caused this rather observable trend in the first place.
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I mostly agree with his opinions and this trend in gaming industry isn't too difficult to notice for anyone who plays games and follows regularly what's going on in the industry.
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It will iron itself out when these developers run out of money.
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Aloy's visual representation has as much visual identity with her voice actress as she does with her mocap actress... and you can pretty much find a hideous image of just about anybody when you cherry pick the frames... but I digress.

Not gonna mince meat here. Regardless of ones opinion on 'fan disservice' or whether or not they find characters like Aloy attractive or hideous... Horizon is one of the best selling and best received new IP's of the decade... and for good reason. The game kicked ass, and Aloy was pretty awesome in it. Whatever any individuals aesthetic opinions on the matter may be, the creators clearly were doing a lot right, or their game would have faceplanted under the 'critical gamer' (Gamers are too stupid to successfully make a game faceplant financially these days, but are none too quiet about tearing the ones they don't like to pieces verbally both before AND after they buy it... quite often for relatively slight or surface deep infractions in the grand scheme of the overall product). Not only did Horizon not faceplant critically either by gamers or industry types, it's getting a pretty solidly anticipated sequel because the first one sold so well. All that pretty much speaks for itself, so when you make a video bitching about fan disservice... one ought probably pick an unpopular title to make your point with, as you can generally better find the 'flaw' that caused the failure therein. Since Horizon succeeded wildly, there's NO point to be made here because fan service or disservice played no part in its success or failure.

I'm assuming he MUST have talked about other games that didn't do as well surely? I can't risk clicking the video for fear that I'll have another seventy top paged video suggestions about why Bree Larson is the devil. Youtube's stupid algorythm is terrible like that. You can watch fifty 'film critique' videos in a row and be guerenteed to have two or three videos of that type suggested to you on a refresh... but listen to one right wing nutjob spew hate on accident and no less than seven such videos come up every refresh for the next six months! (in the interest of neutrality, I'm sure its the same for sane conservatives stumbling on a hard lefties rant video and thus find themselves bombarded with nonsense they have no interest in)
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This game? yeah nothing to see.

I've wondered if sexual characters even sell anymore. Same with comics. If they did I would think Wonder Woman and Power Girl would be the top comics. So it looks like men aren't even that interested in women anymore which is probably a good thing. Now men can walk away and pursue other things. This truly is a victory for the cause of diversity. More of this needs to be encouraged.
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Femina wrote:
2 years ago
Regardless of ones opinion on 'fan disservice' or whether or not they find characters like Aloy attractive or hideous... Horizon is one of the best selling and best received new IP's of the decade... and for good reason. The game kicked ass, and Aloy was pretty awesome in it. . . . it's getting a pretty solidly anticipated sequel because the first one sold so well.
The "get woke go broke" crowd apparently tried to boycott Horizon Zero Dawn for some reason or other. A common prelude to a game or movie's sales skyrocketing; they have the same basic commercial effect that anti-rock campaigners had in the Fifties and Sixties and amusingly, still haven't figured that out.
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
I've wondered if sexual characters even sell anymore. Same with comics. If they did I would think Wonder Woman and Power Girl would be the top comics. So it looks like men aren't even that interested in women anymore which is probably a good thing. Now men can walk away and pursue other things. This truly is a victory for the cause of diversity. More of this needs to be encouraged.
I almost think you're right. I checked the interior art of both the latest issues of Wonder Woman and Black Cat. It is terrible art on the style of a Tumblr level. And it is utterly devoid of any possible sex appeal. As for Power Girl specifically - she is not even used in DC Comics anymore except by Palmiotti and Conner, which is why they want to buy her from DC (I've heard them say this on a livestream).
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shevek wrote:
2 years ago
Now, Youtuber Vee ("Romanian TVee") has coined the term "fan disservice" to describe a trend that's been going on for several years
in game development.
Kinda odd to call something "fan disservice" when it is annoying people who have never been fans of the series? HZD was a fantastic game, utterly heart wrenching and a very brave move for a studio to go with rather than pumping out another killzone generic FPS. HZD FW, looks like they're going to pull a bit of a bait and switch with the plot and is lining up to be another cracker.

Of all the hills to die on "this character is not sexy enough" is pretty much the best example of why there is no helping the incels

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If you don't want story and you just want tits there are plenty of games for that, just type "sexy" into the steam store.
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lionbadger wrote:
2 years ago
If you don't want story and you just want tits there are plenty of games for that, just type "sexy" into the steam store.
Why not both?

Mainstream games do seem very anti-sexy these days. Partly it's activist journalists, and developers making a business decision to optimise their games for review scores rather than for being a good game - there are more people, including parents, uncles and aunts buying presents, who trust review scores. Similar thinking is behind repetitive gameplay to achieve a long play time. Partly it's because these companies are to some extent infested with bullying ideologues etc. Partly i guess it's because they're very corporate these days, with too many cooks that don't really know what they're doing, which impacts on other things too. Partly it's tax breaks given out to those who accede to certain demands.

Mainstream games used to be to a greater extent written by visionaries who wanted to make what they wanted to play. This still happens with smaller budget games, but you tend not to see such games on store shelves. There are huge number of games these days. Some are great, made by people free from studio interference, who want to make something genuinely good. The trick is finding them!
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ivandobsky wrote:
2 years ago

Mainstream games do seem very anti-sexy these days.
Yes and I find this extremely laughable and ironic since we live in a MORE progressive culture in which progressives won yet progressives are MORE prudish than the conservatives. How come there are out loud and proud pride parades with kink and half naked men in speedos but lordy lord we can't have some bouncy titty in a video game or some tight spandex booty. (But we can have a shirtless Henry Cavill for 20 minutes... fancy that)

Oh they'll hide it as saying its objectification but so what. Banning fan service due to objectification or due to depravity (which BTW in part is also anti objectification) is still banning something. That's like arguing there's a good reason to be racist.

And speaking of depravity, if one wants to ban something cause men are staring at it for jollies (male gaze), that is banning it FOR DEPRAVITY. That is literally the definition of depravity.

Gee this is progressivism? This is out loud and proud? Seems loud and proud doesn't apply to some of the rest of us. I'm surprised they aren't running around measuring girl's skirts like the old church ladies did.
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
Yes and I find this extremely laughable and ironic since we live in a MORE progressive culture in which progressives won yet progressives are MORE prudish than the conservatives. How come there are out loud and proud pride parades with kink and half naked men in speedos but lordy lord we can't have some bouncy titty in a video game or some tight spandex booty. (But we can have a shirtless Henry Cavill for 20 minutes... fancy that)
I don't think there has ever been a monopoly on prudes. There's never been a 'liberals sexually progressive'/'conservatives sexually prudish' dichotomy in the way people seem to think. CHRISTIANS trend toward the prudish, then by and large Christians trend mildly toward conservatism. Often enough that really does appear to be the primary factor of old school anti-sexuality that there ever was. Christianities influence on social norms has waned considerably however and yet... we aren't really any more or less progressive today than we've ever been, we're all just more connected than we ever were in the past via the internet which allows us to better observe the social mean as individuals.

The other factor IS gender interest bleeding into one another's typical 'territories'. As girls become less interested in Barbie's and become as interested in say, video games and superheroes via the MCU as the boys already were, then the female perspective on the subject matter comes to be better known, meanwhile the inverse can be seen as say, boys who were previously into superheroes becoming like... 'Bronies' and such checking out territory typically associated with girls bring their unique perspectives into those fields as well.
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Femina wrote:
2 years ago
we aren't really any more or less progressive today than we've ever been, we're all just more connected than we ever were in the past via the internet which allows us to better observe the social mean as individuals.
Then what was the point of progressivism? What's the point of all this messaging and promotion of ideas if it didn't really move the needle? Why the push in media, education, politics, corporate culture?
Damselbinder

This thread was, I think, doomed from the start, but we are AGAIN circling back to a conversation that has happened in dozens of threads, over and over, and over.

Stop.
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
Femina wrote:
2 years ago
we aren't really any more or less progressive today than we've ever been, we're all just more connected than we ever were in the past via the internet which allows us to better observe the social mean as individuals.
Then what was the point of progressivism? What's the point of all this messaging and promotion of ideas if it didn't really move the needle? Why the push in media, education, politics, corporate culture?
Why fight wars for territory when civilizations rise and fall? Why send a man to the moon when you can't really do anything with it? Why strive to be better than you are when in 70 odd years you're just gonna be dead and forgotten anyway?

Nihilism isn't a relevant strategy for anything. We're allowed to be nihilists and distance ourselves from caring about all this shit, but we don't get to be a nihilist AND complain when someone petitions for change that upsets us. Either we TRY things or we accept how they are. If how they are isn't what we want, we have to TRY something... nobody ever said everything that got tried ever amounted to anything.

(I'm talking about Nihilism as a strategy not calling anyone here Nihilists)


Edit: Why is this topic here? I thought politics as a rule were banned now, but I don't see how this topic can exist non-politically? I don't even blame you for this Mr. X. How can this thread even be approached non-politically? We got baited!

I propose this thread be locked.
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Femina wrote:
2 years ago
Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago
Femina wrote:
2 years ago
we aren't really any more or less progressive today than we've ever been, we're all just more connected than we ever were in the past via the internet which allows us to better observe the social mean as individuals.
Then what was the point of progressivism? What's the point of all this messaging and promotion of ideas if it didn't really move the needle? Why the push in media, education, politics, corporate culture?
Why fight wars for territory when civilizations rise and fall?
Great. So why fight for progressivism if it doesn't do anything? Just for the sake of fighting? Why "block the male gaze" if that doesn't really solve anything other than maybe some bullying and petty revenge.We can narrow this down to the male gaze issue since that's relevant here.

As I stated earlier I don't think sexy sells anyway but I do have to look at other markets like anime and see they are doing gang busters, especially in comics and they are NOT doing what the american market is doing. For example DBZ sells like mad and there is literally zilch sexiness in the series. In fact there are zilch women in the series except maybe some annoying side characters.

Since people doing this politically motivated actions cannot be reasoned with the next best thing is to give them an axe to chop their own industry down. Push it aside and build something new. If we encourage Disney to double and triple their budgets on stinkers then the faster they crumble and move aside.
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Mr. X wrote:
2 years ago

As I stated earlier I don't think sexy sells anyway but I do have to look at other markets like anime and see they are doing gang busters, especially in comics and they are NOT doing what the american market is doing. For example DBZ sells like mad and there is literally zilch sexiness in the series. In fact there are zilch women in the series except maybe some annoying side characters.
I've said my peace on the politics here so I hope you'll take what I'm going forward with just conversationally. I'm not even broaching 'sexiness' anymore. I've said that peace... the video maker even accidentally signed his own irrelevance certificate by using Horizon of all things to try and make his point.

Anyway, I've never watched DBZ, it's never been a thing I've felt marketed to but many of my male friends do know plenty about it. If DBZ WANTED me, or NEEDED me, I expect they'd market for me (I expect even maybe that more recently there's been a little bit of a push that way? I'm told there's at least one female super saiyan now or some such) and that is definitely a good example of a franchise doing its own thing in content with the audience it has... I just wouldn't take that as an indicator that it'd work for everything? My Little Pony, by rights, never should have attracted male audience members... but it did? Once it did, would it have made sense from the creative team to ignore that? I imagine if they HAD ignored it they'd probably have found little change for sure... but at the same time it allowed them the excuse if nothing else to play around with some tropes and ideas that maybe they'd felt barred out of before? Different strokes for different folks right?
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