A-Force: Marvel's all-female superheroine team

[shevek]

Full equality of opportunity under the law (not equality of outcome). Although I do probably have some shades of MGTOW (what comics/sci-fi nerd doesn't..), I'm not an MRA-er or a fedora bro by any means. I'm pro-abortion, pro gay-rights, strong atheist, and would consider my personal politics a mix of left-libertarianism and voluntarist/agorist, although in elections I tend to vote as centrist as possible because I always believe a middle ground is best for the stability of the country as a whole (hence, Hillary).

When I mentioned the "flood" of SJW comics coming..I wasn't talking about the DC universe pants rule (which was certainly a proto-SJW move to make female readers feel better about reading their books, nonetheless - the concept of "practicality of costume", which has come to the TV screens as the Dark Jacket Disease). I've read comics and independent publications for quite a while. Started about as a fan of New Teen Titans, X-Men and so on in the late 70s and early 80s..I remember talking with some nerdy friends in the third grade about the significance of the Death of Gwen Stacy. I remember the late 80s/early 90s when the "third wave" consisted of almost entirely subcultural comic creations that nobody in the mainstream cared about, like say, Hothead Paisan or Dykes to Watch Out For, and it wasn't superheroine-oriented at all, it was "zine" culture mostly. The riot grrls idolized Wonder Woman and maybe a couple others like Kitty Pryde, and that was about it.

So I'm clearly talking about the new explosive era of feminist-driven publications that has been happening for the past few years, such as the titles I mentioned above (there are many other examples). Those comics are not particularly in my interest vein (I really can't see wanting to read Faith for example..and I looked at the My So-Called Secret ID website in detail and to me it was just meh..at least compared to how much I really liked Sex Criminals) but I do not begrudge their existence - there is obviously a need for them (so Viridian or whoever, please don't assume that I resent such comics). I was using the existence of those comics, though (and Mr X's reiteration of the complaints comics companies were getting about things like Spiderbutt and Batrape) to prove that there is a definite enroachment into the territory of changing the appearance and backstory etc of familiar characters to make them more PC (such as Carol Danvers). You can't deny that third-wave feminists in charge of more and more major books is going to make the attitude of those books a lot more third-wave feminist (as well as intersectional, because the two can't be separated). Viridian, I think the day that you "envision" when females create tons of their own titles is coming sooner than you think. I am already seeing a lot of women employed in comic shops in my area. Because I believe strongly in women's equality, I believe that is an extremely positive step. But at the same time, I love the prurient element of this culture as well...that's why I'm on this forum.

As for that peril variant cover, I'm diggin' it. Viridian, I'm very glad that you're on her expressing your opinions and realizing your fetish, just like anyone else. I am definitely not here to insult you, nor would that be my intention. Although I respect Mr X's work, I am not arguing from the "white men" perspective that he seems to be a bit stuck on. I am simply arguing from the "keep things sexy when possible" perspective.

And yes, Heroine Addict, of course one can buy "superheroine porn" That is obviously much of the point of this forum. But again, I am just hoping that this niche doesn't get attacked by sjws at some point, because you have to admit that it's a sitting duck for a full-on PC assault if some Sarkeesian-wannabe wanted to take a crack at it. We've seen in the recent past that such sjw crusaders are not above lies, false rumors, doxxing, de-platforming, harrassment, and whatever else it might take to accomplish their utopianist end, when they have to take on anyone from that NASA guy with the pinup-girl shirt to Richard Dawkins himself. And then you have to wonder, if that happened, what allies would the SHIP scene have? Would the rest of the "alternative porn" (for example, Trouble Films, which bills itself as the Next Golden Era of Porn..by which they mean a new sex-positive sjw era of course...) industry jump to SHIP's defense? One has to wonder. Hope it never happens!

[Philo Hunter]

I think a handful of you are making some assumptions about me that I'd like clarify more.
First of all, I self-identify as a second-wave feminist if I did not make that clear.

I only have a few things I want to say to this.

1) Self identifying as a feminist doesn't somehow magically shield you from being called out on sexist bullshit. One might even argue you should be held to a slightly higher standard in that regard as you are presenting yourself as someone who believes in and fights for equality between the sexes.

2) If you REALLY do think of yourself as a feminist I think you should have a long hard think on what that word means and what you really believe. You have thrown the term "SJW" about a ton, and repeatedly used it as if it was a bad thing and in insult. If you believe people that fight for social justice issues are bad people, then REALLY don't think you are a feminist. If you want equality, believe it should exist, then it should be worth fighting for and you should at the very least not be trying to hinder those fighting for it. If, on the other hand, you are NOT a feminist but telling yourself you are one makes you feel better, well... maybe you should stop. Or you should except that you believe, or at the very least spend a lot of time online preaching, a ton of sexist bullshit.

[Heroine Addict]

How exactly is a Social Justice Warrior defined, anyway? It's a nebulous pejorative that seems to cover everyone from hardline activists such as Anita Sarkeesian all the way down to some person who posts a vaguely liberal comment on a messageboard.

Are SJWs better or worse than "do-gooders"? How do they compare to the "PC Brigade"? Is "tree-hugging" optional or mandatory for an SJW?

[shevek]

Philo..I think you need to tone down, please. I don't just "self-identify" as a feminist..I grew up in a strong second-wave feminist family environment where women's achivements were celebrated. I supported and participated in feminist and social-awareness causes in the from the late 80s to the mid 90s..I was strongly involved in the riot-grrl stuff for example.

Where was the "sexist bullshit" that you claim I was pushing? The fact that I like to look at women in sexy costumes? I always have..and I know the difference between fantasy and reality. Everyone does, on here, last time I looked - that's what this forum is for!! But if the SJWs found out about this forum, they would make no distinction between me and anyone else on here - they would condemn and doxx everyone they could find.

And no "SJW" does not mean the same thing as "feminist". Second-wave feminism is about equality. But SJW-ism, mostly the extreme kind on campuses nowadays, is about identity politics and constructing an elaborate hierarchy of oppression that makes straight white males the villains and pretty much exonerates everyone else. SJWs don't necessarily care about *everyone* who is oppressed (for example, you don't see them giving a shit about all the violence in Africa, or Central America or Pakistan for that matter), they only care about who is oppressed by white cis males.

Do-gooding is one thing..one can do good in so many ways. I used to personally organized pro-choice benefit events (where reproductive health clinics got the money) and I admire those, for example, who are abortion clinic escorts, or the Doctors Without Borders who put their lives on the line to stop Ebola, or heroines like Malala speaking up for education of girls, etc. But getting obsessed with minute First World micro-aggressions (for example, that whole Mizzou thing was basically about NOTHING! so were most college hooplas, like the Asian food authenticity tiff in Oberlin or the Halloween costume thing at Yale, etc. not to mention recent ridiculousness like saying Zoe Saldana isn't black enough - she played fucking Lt Uhura! - or that Leslie Jones' Ghostbuster character is racist, etc.) is a whole different story. My saying that doesn't make me "sexist", it just makes me anti-absurdity and anti-snowflakery.

[Heroine Addict]

Zoe Saldana bears no physical resemblance to Nina Simone. Whatsoever. She required a wig, prosthetic make-up and skin paint. If we're going to accept any black person playing any other real-life black person, regardless of how much "blackface" minstrel make-up is required to match the skin hue, maybe Colin Salmon could be cast as Robert Mugabe? After all, they're both black guys.

[shevek]

HA...sorry but I have no problem with prosthetic and facepaint in the service of a good acting performance. See, once again, this SJW stuff is going overboard. Sure, in past generations "blackface" minstrelsy was intended to be demeaning and racist..and sure, if some frat boy painted himself like "Little Black Sambo" now, I would of course say that's racist and blackface. But altering your face to look like a character you're playing should not be an issue if the character is being played well and respectfully. That isn't "blackface" anymore than cosplaying is. In cosplay, there is the basic respect that (unlike you have an SJW stick up your ass) anyone can play any character..you don't criticize a white cosplayer for playing an Asian character anymore than you'd criticize an Asian cosplayer for playing a white character (the only criticism is *how well* they play the character, i.e. not identity-based, but merit-and-talent-based). Otherwise, it's an indefensible double standard. SJWs whine about how there are so many black actresses who could've played that role..but you know what? They don't mention unknown black actresses who need the work but rather the ones that *already* have many other prominent roles, like Lupita Nyongo. The truth is Zoe Saldana is black - she's black enough to play Uhura and nobody said anything because the Uhura character is a groundbreaking radiant goddess beyond reproach, who is *native African*! So she's black enough to play Nina Simone as well, who is a few generations removed from Africa. Let's see how good or not the Nina Simone biopic actually is, before condemning based on solely on a fake nose or whatever.

I never followed the Bond movies much since the 80s... but Colin Salmon (who I have to be honest I really didn't know about until now) would be exceptionally good as Harry Belafonte, don't you think?

[possum2]

I mean My GOD what can we possibly gain on a SHiP website about an all female superteam!?

Oh yeah THIS



THIS is what we should be talking about on this forum! Not what AForce means in the feminist landscape.

Who are all of the women in this pile, I don't recognize several of them?

[Dazzle1]

SJWs are the new thought police and it is a shame they have infiltrated the mainstream comic industry. There main influence is on the college campsus because the humananties and phony ethnic studies depts support them and college Presidents like Deaul's are cowards.

I am not worried about them for the porn industry or this genre.

First christian conservatives who have real power: political and money can't destroy porn these crybabies won't

And although I have never met any of these female producers, a number of the superheroine porn producers are woman. I don't think any of them consider SJW concerns in their work.

[sugarcoater]

New to this thread and read about half of it before wanting to post, so forgive any redundancies.

1. Where are people getting their sales numbers from? Perhaps some ethos might be added with the source of sales. Also, where are the gender and age numbers found for comic book purchases. Perhaps a little data chart could be added to use as a point of debate.

2. Could the issue with sales in the comic industry be similar to the way the baseball card industry cannibalized itself in the 90s? Back in the 80s, there were only three major companies, each with just one line of cards. Then, in the 90s, more companies came out and each one created multiple versions of their brand, especially premium (ridiculously expensive) versions. With the glut of cards, the industry began to wane. I lost interest because there was no longer the one or two brands I collected with mh friends and traded to complete the set. It was just too busy an industry.
I see comics having done the same. Four to six titles for some of the major characters. Great writers produced less; great artists didn't produce as much as they used to (or retired). New writers and artists have come into the business, but with so many titles the percent of great work is diminished. Once great titles are then rotates with lesser writers and authors, and the title loses steam. And it becomes hard to keep track of all the events occurring if the character or group has multiple (i.e. all the Spider-Man titles of the 90s).
In short, it seems that comics' sales would be more efficient with fewer titles and a consolidation of talent. The month-to-month sales would go down in the short-term, but the long-term benefits (and this is admittedly conjecture) would be a long-term sustained successful business.

3. Can someone restate the meaning of SJW? I'm assuming the W is for women, based in context, but the SJ?

4. As far as the women in comics, the agenda some seem to see is one that has to be inferred through evidence. What I see is that there are indeed fewer artists connected to DC and Marvel who draw their female characters in, for lack of a better description, a sexy manner. I put down a number of titles because the art just turned me off, as well as the uniform changes (i.e. Wonder Woman). There is also more made of sexuality so long as it is not heterosexual. I can understand that many artists and writers wish to be at the forefront of a movement that already had a huge backing, but I would have that movement not to come at a loss in the mainstream. The movement to make Captain America gay (which is just a publicity stunt to encourage making a lesser character gay, as Marvel wouldn't dare make such a mainstream character become gay) is one that tires me out. Have a character whose sexuality has not been defined be gay, or add some new characters and make them gay. See what Alpha Flight did back in the day. And then move on. By making sexuality an issue, sexuality then remains an issue and isn't a norm. Just treat it the way any sexuality is treated and it becomes a triviality, which is what anyone's sexuality should be.

Personally, I would love to see George Perez draw Wonder Woman again, and put her in peril with ripped costume and all. Have Jim Lee draw Psylocke again in her classic and sexy outfit, and have her put in perilous combat. Bring Jim Balent back to draw Catwoman (or Batgirl) in his unique style. Those for me were a few of my favorites from back in the day.

Okay, that was way too long. Thanks to anyone who took the time to read all of this.

[Heroine Addict]

The discussion kind of moved over to this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=26696
Which also became a shitshow.

The term SJW (Social Justice Warrior) is not conducive to debate, as it automatically dismisses any complaint you don't like as part of a wider straw(wo)man agenda. If someone repeatedly uses juvenile names, it kind of undermines their own arguments. SJW might as well be WPH (Wrong Poopy Head) or MLC (Mewling Liberal Cunt). Such pejoratives don't really do anything other than let off steam about a perceived enemy.

[Richpartist]

Probably one of the sexiest thing,a gorgeous pile up of heroines

[Femina]

Probably one of the sexiest thing,a gorgeous pile up of heroines

It seriously is. It's just to bad we couldn't enjoy it without a crap heap of whining.

Are they still doing A-Force comics? It doesn't feel like comic books run for very long anymore. They have a new comic series every week now it seems. 'Wolverine 3.14 #1-4' next week 'Wolverine #1' next week 'Wolverine vs the world #1!" then inevitably back to just 'Wolverine #1' Why the second Wolverine #1 isn't actually Wolverine #2 I will never understand.

[Heroine Addict]

A-Force is still running. No sign of Medusa buying a burqa or She-Hulk in baggy pants. Just a bunch of superheroines righting wrongs in tight costumes. Which makes that whole debate seem a bit surreal now. A book got castigated for having too many superheroines... on the Superheroine Forum! That was a seriously weird debate to have here.

[Femina]

A-Force is still running. No sign of Medusa buying a burqa or She-Hulk in baggy pants. Just a bunch of superheroines righting wrongs in tight costumes. Which makes that whole debate seem a bit surreal now. A book got castigated for having too many superheroines... on the Superheroine Forum! That was a seriously weird debate to have here.

It's got to be among the stupidest debates we have EVER had. I still can't believe how much bickering this has caused, I'm a little mystified that the topic has been resurrected on sheer weight of the claptrap it evoked here and elsewhere.

So here's hoping the conversation can just focus around the comic from here out. Think I'll look into reading it and try maybe to infuse some of what the comic is actually SAYING into this thread.

[shevek]

Hello NPCs! (Heh heh just kidding)

Just topping this old thread about A-Force to drop the news that ABC has apparently officially passed on a series based on the comic.
Which is just as well, since the comic itself was cancelled what, almost two years ago at this point? And yes, a comic book series CAN have "too many superheroines" and lose focus. We've wrestled with that problem ourselves on Heroineburgh (but we've solved in for Season Two by providing multiple
story arcs per episode rather than huge screen-filling crowd fights).

https://boundingintocomics.com/2019/02/ ... hero-show/

Also it's interesting how in the two years since this thread was topped, Marvel has considerably altered quite a number of the characters depicted in the A-Force group shot : Jean Grey, Spiderwoman, She-Hulk, Captain Marvel and others. None of the alterations were well-received or successful, and the books containing them were quickly cancelled - comic books runs are ending even quicker than they were the last time Femina posted about that.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - a She-Hulk series based on a mix of plots from the John Byrne and Dan Slott runs would be well received by the
audience (to hell with whatever the critics have to say). High-powered lawyer in a firm that defends supervillains. Suit-ripping transformation and building-damaging clobberin' time. Funny, sexy, and smart, breaking the fourth wall. Epic battle with Titania. 30 Rock meets The Office with superpowers. And tons of great Marvel character guests - Hellcat, Dazzler, Captain Marvel, Firestar, whoever. It's a no-brainer and it's already written itself.

SHE-HULK TV SHOW!