Paris Tragedy

Topics, links and pics that are interesting, weird, or irrelevant!
User avatar
tallyho
Ambassador
Ambassador
Posts: 5390
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Land of No Hope and Past Glories

Appalling news from Paris tonight.

My thoughts with the families of all affected and my condolences to any French members of the board. Hope no one here was directly affected by this tragedy
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

I am here to help one and all enjoy this site, so if you have any questions or feel you are being trolled please contact me (Hit the 'CONTACT' little speech bubble below my Avatar).
User avatar
dlo005
Elder Member
Elder Member
Posts: 498
Joined: 12 years ago

i echo the above thoughts..... vive la france!!!!
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest Simon & Garfunkel
User avatar
athenaartemis
Sargeant 1st Class
Sargeant 1st Class
Posts: 245
Joined: 12 years ago

Agreed. May we all stand for what is best in humanity and deny those who seek the worst.

-Tyr Garm
Last edited by athenaartemis 8 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
jimbobklyn5
Producer
Producer
Posts: 1487
Joined: 11 years ago
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Contact:

My heart, thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and the families of today's tragic events that took place in Paris today.
#Pray4Paris
pray4paris#3.png
pray4paris#3.png (441.37 KiB) Viewed 12375 times
:supes: Watch all of W.O.N/MMP's Superheroine World Underwater Peril Fan Film Series, only on W.O.N Cinema YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/woncinema
User avatar
athenaartemis
Sargeant 1st Class
Sargeant 1st Class
Posts: 245
Joined: 12 years ago

jimbobklyn5 wrote:My heart, thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and the families of today's tragic events that took place in Paris today.
#Pray4Paris
pray4paris#3.png
Well done!
User avatar
MightyHypnotic
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 3103
Joined: 20 years ago
Contact:

A thought occurred to me. The US in 2001, UK in 2005, Russian Jet 2 weeks ago and now France.

Might be time to get the group back together again.

(And you too, Canadians!)

But what a grim day. I can only imagine what the people of Paris are feeling right now.
User avatar
tallyho
Ambassador
Ambassador
Posts: 5390
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Land of No Hope and Past Glories

This is from a very good article 6 years ago in the Independent Newspaper in the UK -

Imagine it. A network of violent radicals is picking off the world's leaders one by one. They have killed the American President, the Russian head of state, the French President, the Austrian head of state, and the Spanish Prime Minister.

Bomb attacks are ripping through the world's richest cities: explosions devastate Wall Street, the London Underground, a theatre in Barcelona, cafés in Paris, parades in Moscow. The police profile of a typical bomber warns: "He walks to his death with courage and no regrets." There is panic, and governments launch programmes of torture and deportation targeted at immigrant communities. Yet still the radicals wash defiantly across the world, killing as they go. They say they have "only one aim, one science: destruction".

It sounds like a feverish novel about al-Qa'ida, set 30 years from now. But it has already happened. It is a story from our past. In the late 19th and early 20th century, anarchist bombers did all this. They were prepared to die for their beliefs. They lived in the same places as today's Islamists – such as Whitechapel, in east London – and they struck the same targets, like lower Manhattan on a clear September morning.



And as devastating as those events by the Anarchist movement may have seemed at the time, within 30 years the radicals had faded to nothing. When the terrorists have an 'all or nothing agenda', it usually ends up as the 'nothing' that they get. However terrible individual acts like this seem and are at the time, they cannot win in a battle with the free will of the global community.
As awful as this is, this time of suffering too will pass and the people of France and indeed the world must be stronger and more resolute to carry on with life without living in fear. And they will be. To a people who survived and resisted 4 years of fascist rule - with random state murders, formal executions, torture and deportation to death camps, such acts as these will never break them; in comparison they are as nothing to having 60-70-80,000 of your population murdered.

Refuse to live in fear everybody.

Vive la France, vive le Monde.
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

I am here to help one and all enjoy this site, so if you have any questions or feel you are being trolled please contact me (Hit the 'CONTACT' little speech bubble below my Avatar).
ttb51m
Sargeant 1st Class
Sargeant 1st Class
Posts: 237
Joined: 13 years ago

they keep hitting country's that wont hit back,,,,,,by themselves,
I agree the band needs a new set of tour dates
im still on AD and ready to go when they want to man up and do it out in the open rather than hiding in the shadows, hostages are the cowards way out of a stand up fight,

what the tshirt say?

I am a human shield, I don't use them.

just sayn
User avatar
AnastasiaPierce
Producer
Producer
Posts: 316
Joined: 10 years ago
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

It's absolutely horrific. I feel very affected and sadden by it. all those innocent people just going on about their lives. Out to dinner , concert or a soccer game. Not looking for any trouble. Killed savagely just like that. What is wrong with the human race.
Lots of Love, Your Wonder Amazon
Anastasia

Super Heroine Clips:
http:www.AnastasiaClips.com

Movies VOD - http://www.HeroineCentral.com
Official Site - http://www.AnastasiaPierce.com
DVD Store - http://www.AnastasiaStore.com
User avatar
ksire_99
Elder Member
Elder Member
Posts: 443
Joined: 15 years ago

I have been unable to watch the news coverage, as my hate for these terrorizing animals make me want to take up arms against them. It made me feel French. The sorrow and pain caused by ISIL has stretched around the globe.

It also makes me realize that is why they are doing it. Somehow, there are others out there that are drawn TO ISIL because of such acts of terrorism. They think these acts will promote Islam and spread it to the whole world?!?!

ISIL uses Islamic ideology (Twisting it in their own oh so special way) to lead young people astray. But they do it for their own political purposes. They kill what they determine to be blasphemers, so a successor to the prophet Muhammad can rule the world. That is what is meant by a “world wide Caliphate”!!!

My thoughts and prayers are with the Free French People as it will take time to heal from this outrage. May the French never forget they are not alone in this fight against this evil. It is an evil that we all face.

Today the Whole World is French!

Long Live France.jpg
Long Live France.jpg (30.42 KiB) Viewed 12280 times
User avatar
Ezekiel
Sargeant 1st Class
Sargeant 1st Class
Posts: 240
Joined: 11 years ago

I think the French secret service has some serious problems. It's the second very well organized terrorist attack in Paris in less than one year and the third or fourth such attack in France in the same timespan. These guys can barely defend their own citizens in their capital and yet their politicians have encouraged the mass and uncontrolled migration from the Middle East and North Africa over into Europe.

If we are to learn anything from this, that lesson is to stop voting for irresponsible morons. Think before you vote.

And if anyone still feels like cracking jokes about the so-called Caliphate, by all means, keep laughing. They'll see to their business and keep killing.
kingles
Sargeant
Sargeant
Posts: 144
Joined: 10 years ago

Ezekiel wrote:And if anyone still feels like cracking jokes about the so-called Caliphate, by all means, keep laughing. They'll see to their business and keep killing.
Not sure who's laughing, but they just took a giant leap closer to their inevitable fate. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind. Just a matter of time...
User avatar
avenger
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 831
Joined: 13 years ago

I've been to Paris; it's a beautiful city, very proud. I hope the people of France unleash hell on those vile extremist terrorists and let vengeance rain down on every single one of them. Time to seriously look out for your family, your friends and neighbors because our government obviously can't....
User avatar
Ezekiel
Sargeant 1st Class
Sargeant 1st Class
Posts: 240
Joined: 11 years ago

Unfortunately, the french are currently reaping what they themselves have sown through irresponsible immigration policies and uninspired (to say it in a civilized tone) external politics. They've been selling motherloads of weapons in the arab countries of the Persian Gulf, and Allah in his great mercy has surely made it possible for at least some of them to end up in the armories of the Caliphate. I wouldn't be surprised if young frenchmen of arab origins were encouraged to travel to Syria and fight as mercenaries against the dictatorship of Al-Assad (in the name of good and civilized European democracy), but when they return home, brainwashed and ready to cap all of the unbelievers in sight, suddenly they are no longer classified as "freedomfighters", but rather "terrorists".

The muslim enclaves on the outskirts of Paris that have become pretty much an arab state within the state of France are a reality as true as any other aspect of traditional french culture. The narrow-minded politicians that made them possible have now lost control over them, and it is the ordinary people that die because of this. I get the feeling that humanity hasn't learned a single lesson from history. I never imagined I would get to live in a world like the one I see today.
Dazzle1
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 1770
Joined: 10 years ago

Ezekiel wrote:Unfortunately, the french are currently reaping what they themselves have sown through irresponsible immigration policies and uninspired (to say it in a civilized tone) external politics. They've been selling motherloads of weapons in the arab countries of the Persian Gulf, and Allah in his great mercy has surely made it possible for at least some of them to end up in the armories of the Caliphate. I wouldn't be surprised if young frenchmen of arab origins were encouraged to travel to Syria and fight as mercenaries against the dictatorship of Al-Assad (in the name of good and civilized European democracy), but when they return home, brainwashed and ready to cap all of the unbelievers in sight, suddenly they are no longer classified as "freedomfighters", but rather "terrorists".

The muslim enclaves on the outskirts of Paris that have become pretty much an arab state within the state of France are a reality as true as any other aspect of traditional french culture. The narrow-minded politicians that made them possible have now lost control over them, and it is the ordinary people that die because of this. I get the feeling that humanity hasn't learned a single lesson from history. I never imagined I would get to live in a world like the one I see today.
We have to acknowledge the evil of Islamic facism and confront all the myriad branches
jigoku
Neophyte Lvl 5
Neophyte Lvl 5
Posts: 47
Joined: 13 years ago

Ezekiel wrote:Unfortunately, the french are currently reaping what they themselves have sown through irresponsible immigration policies and uninspired (to say it in a civilized tone) external politics. They've been selling motherloads of weapons in the arab countries of the Persian Gulf, and Allah in his great mercy has surely made it possible for at least some of them to end up in the armories of the Caliphate. I wouldn't be surprised if young frenchmen of arab origins were encouraged to travel to Syria and fight as mercenaries against the dictatorship of Al-Assad (in the name of good and civilized European democracy), but when they return home, brainwashed and ready to cap all of the unbelievers in sight, suddenly they are no longer classified as "freedomfighters", but rather "terrorists".

The muslim enclaves on the outskirts of Paris that have become pretty much an arab state within the state of France are a reality as true as any other aspect of traditional french culture. The narrow-minded politicians that made them possible have now lost control over them, and it is the ordinary people that die because of this. I get the feeling that humanity hasn't learned a single lesson from history. I never imagined I would get to live in a world like the one I see today.
As a French, I totally agree with you. But, we feel powerless about this situation. It is the fruit of our society (suburbs) multicultural!
When a French grew up among strangers, it is not the foreigners who assimilate ... but the opposite! The French who become Muslim !!! Which can then alas, by this means, be bringing to jihadism ... impossible! otherwise...
September 11, the multiple problems of our European societies (unemployment, social costs, not assimilation, changing "our" secular rules slowly ... (pools for women only, (in Lille ) ... canteens, headscarves, mosques, etc ...)
Europe and France leaders bears full responsibility for its own attacks! like those past, and future ... by their laxity and ideology completely out of touch with reality! This new drama demonstrates ...
ttb51m
Sargeant 1st Class
Sargeant 1st Class
Posts: 237
Joined: 13 years ago

Ezekiel wrote:Unfortunately, the french are currently reaping what they themselves have sown through irresponsible immigration policies and uninspired (to say it in a civilized tone) external politics. They've been selling motherloads of weapons in the arab countries of the Persian Gulf, and Allah in his great mercy has surely made it possible for at least some of them to end up in the armories of the Caliphate. I wouldn't be surprised if young frenchmen of arab origins were encouraged to travel to Syria and fight as mercenaries against the dictatorship of Al-Assad (in the name of good and civilized European democracy), but when they return home, brainwashed and ready to cap all of the unbelievers in sight, suddenly they are no longer classified as "freedomfighters", but rather "terrorists".

The muslim enclaves on the outskirts of Paris that have become pretty much an arab state within the state of France are a reality as true as any other aspect of traditional french culture. The narrow-minded politicians that made them possible have now lost control over them, and it is the ordinary people that die because of this. I get the feeling that humanity hasn't learned a single lesson from history. I never imagined I would get to live in a world like the one I see today.
well said, immigration is a form of occupation and invasion with a less aggressive title, way more passive to say you were invaded by "immigrants" as opposed to you were occupied by an organized force that overwhelmed you from inside your own borders and strangled the sovereign right out of you before you knew how to respond. Lets hope someone in authority is paying attention to this and acts accordingly to see ahead and prevent it from becoming the norm.
User avatar
ksire_99
Elder Member
Elder Member
Posts: 443
Joined: 15 years ago

Quote from Muammar Gaddafi in 2006

“We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe—without swords, without guns, without conquest—will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades.”
Dogfish
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 934
Joined: 10 years ago

ksire_99 wrote:Quote from Muammar Gaddafi in 2006

“We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe—without swords, without guns, without conquest—will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades.”
A man who died in a ditch with a knife up his arse. I wouldn't take what he said as an informed assessment.
User avatar
ksire_99
Elder Member
Elder Member
Posts: 443
Joined: 15 years ago

Dogfish wrote:
ksire_99 wrote:Quote from Muammar Gaddafi in 2006

“We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe—without swords, without guns, without conquest—will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades.”
A man who died in a ditch with a knife up his arse. I wouldn't take what he said as an informed assessment.
He was very informed. Much more than you or I. He was funding terrorists around the world. Those who chose to ignore what is happening then they are part of the problem.

BTW, He got what was coming to him.
Dogfish
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 934
Joined: 10 years ago

Sad to see people blaming immigrants for this. A person leaving their homeland to get a job and a better life, or fleeing it because it's tearing itself apart, is not some agent of evil plotting to destroy the fabric of civilisation. Immigrants are just people trying to live the best they can.

Immigration is a net benefit to any country well-governed enough to attract it (and plenty don't get it, and it's killing them).

The enemy here is ISIS and they're what needs to be dealt with. It's not Islam, it's not foreigners, it's not immigrants. It's just one group of dickheads based out of Syria. We've seen attacks from the same group in the last two weeks in Paris, Beruit and Egypt (as it seems they were responsible for bringing down that Russian airliner). It's a global problem and France's immigration policy is absolutely nothing to do with it. ISIS are one group of people and they need sorting out. They've needed sorting out for years. Probably should have been quicker about it.
Dogfish
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 934
Joined: 10 years ago

ksire_99 wrote:
Dogfish wrote:
ksire_99 wrote:Quote from Muammar Gaddafi in 2006

“We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe—without swords, without guns, without conquest—will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades.”
A man who died in a ditch with a knife up his arse. I wouldn't take what he said as an informed assessment.
He was very informed. Much more than you or I. He was funding terrorists around the world. Those who chose to ignore what is happening then they are part of the problem.

BTW, He got what was coming to him.
No he wasn't. He was a bloodthirsty dictator, which means in simple terms he was told, by everybody, exactly what he wanted to hear all the time. He would have probably been the least informed person in Libya about things going on in Libya, or anywhere else. Same story plays out in dictatorships all over the world. These guys think they are adored. Probably all die with that same surprised look on their faces.
User avatar
ksire_99
Elder Member
Elder Member
Posts: 443
Joined: 15 years ago

Dogfish wrote:Sad to see people blaming immigrants for this. A person leaving their homeland to get a job and a better life, or fleeing it because it's tearing itself apart, is not some agent of evil plotting to destroy the fabric of civilisation. Immigrants are just people trying to live the best they can.

Immigration is a net benefit to any country well-governed enough to attract it (and plenty don't get it, and it's killing them).

The enemy here is ISIS and they're what needs to be dealt with. It's not Islam, it's not foreigners, it's not immigrants. It's just one group of dickheads based out of Syria. We've seen attacks from the same group in the last two weeks in Paris, Beruit and Egypt (as it seems they were responsible for bringing down that Russian airliner). It's a global problem and France's immigration policy is absolutely nothing to do with it. ISIS are one group of people and they need sorting out. They've needed sorting out for years. Probably should have been quicker about it.
I agree, immigration is not the problem. It is uncontrolled/illegal immigration. When someone wants to go to a new country, they should want to live by their rules. Not the other way around as what is happening around France and Paris in particular.
Dazzle1
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 1770
Joined: 10 years ago

Dogfish wrote:Sad to see people blaming immigrants for this. A person leaving their homeland to get a job and a better life, or fleeing it because it's tearing itself apart, is not some agent of evil plotting to destroy the fabric of civilisation. Immigrants are just people trying to live the best they can.

Immigration is a net benefit to any country well-governed enough to attract it (and plenty don't get it, and it's killing them).

The enemy here is ISIS and they're what needs to be dealt with. It's not Islam, it's not foreigners, it's not immigrants. It's just one group of dickheads based out of Syria. We've seen attacks from the same group in the last two weeks in Paris, Beruit and Egypt (as it seems they were responsible for bringing down that Russian airliner). It's a global problem and France's immigration policy is absolutely nothing to do with it. ISIS are one group of people and they need sorting out. They've needed sorting out for years. Probably should have been quicker about it.
People are rightfully blaming Islamists who refuse to assimilate as earlier immigrants have. The main root of all the terrorist attacks in Europe, Israel and the U.S is islamic intolerance
Dogfish
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 934
Joined: 10 years ago

ksire_99 wrote:
Dogfish wrote:Sad to see people blaming immigrants for this. A person leaving their homeland to get a job and a better life, or fleeing it because it's tearing itself apart, is not some agent of evil plotting to destroy the fabric of civilisation. Immigrants are just people trying to live the best they can.

Immigration is a net benefit to any country well-governed enough to attract it (and plenty don't get it, and it's killing them).

The enemy here is ISIS and they're what needs to be dealt with. It's not Islam, it's not foreigners, it's not immigrants. It's just one group of dickheads based out of Syria. We've seen attacks from the same group in the last two weeks in Paris, Beruit and Egypt (as it seems they were responsible for bringing down that Russian airliner). It's a global problem and France's immigration policy is absolutely nothing to do with it. ISIS are one group of people and they need sorting out. They've needed sorting out for years. Probably should have been quicker about it.
I agree, immigration is not the problem. It is uncontrolled/illegal immigration. When someone wants to go to a new country, they should want to live by their rules. Not the other way around as what is happening around France and Paris in particular.
If there's no ISIS for them to join, for them to be trained by, armed by and brainwashed into launching suicide attacks by, then there's not really much of a problem*. There isn't some mysterious, unknowable force that suddenly turns ordinary decent folks into killers. It's not a monster under the bed. It's an army, it has leaders, supply lines, troops, bases, financing. It is a tangible enemy that can be destroyed.


*Other than the more usual societal problems. But that's just normal. Everywhere has its problems.
User avatar
Ezekiel
Sargeant 1st Class
Sargeant 1st Class
Posts: 240
Joined: 11 years ago

Dogfish wrote:Sad to see people blaming immigrants for this. A person leaving their homeland to get a job and a better life, or fleeing it because it's tearing itself apart, is not some agent of evil plotting to destroy the fabric of civilisation. Immigrants are just people trying to live the best they can.

Immigration is a net benefit to any country well-governed enough to attract it (and plenty don't get it, and it's killing them).

The enemy here is ISIS and they're what needs to be dealt with. It's not Islam, it's not foreigners, it's not immigrants. It's just one group of dickheads based out of Syria. We've seen attacks from the same group in the last two weeks in Paris, Beruit and Egypt (as it seems they were responsible for bringing down that Russian airliner). It's a global problem and France's immigration policy is absolutely nothing to do with it. ISIS are one group of people and they need sorting out. They've needed sorting out for years. Probably should have been quicker about it.
Well, to begin with, from what the investigators found so far it appears that at least one of the attackers was a french citizen under the watch of the secret service for known extremist affiliations. These are the sons or grandsons of african immigrants that have become french citizens but for whatever reason can no longer find a place in the french society. The fact that muslim communities in France, the United Kingdom or Sweden are refusing to integrate in the european way of life and are increasingly difficult to deal with is a well-known fact that is blatantly ignored only by politically-correct morons or individuals with shady agendas. I understand that another passport which was found was registered this summer in Greece and would belong to a refugee coming from the Middle East, but it's exact connection with the attacks has yet to be established.

Of course that immigration itself is not the problem. But, I'd remind you that the last time in European history when massive populations settled into lands owned by a different culture and they failed to get along, things ended with the roman civilization falling and opened into a period we now call the Dark Age. It'd be nice if people learned a thing or two from that, but it appears that they have not.
kingles
Sargeant
Sargeant
Posts: 144
Joined: 10 years ago

Ezekiel wrote:Unfortunately, the french are currently reaping what they themselves have sown through irresponsible immigration policies and uninspired (to say it in a civilized tone) external politics. They've been selling motherloads of weapons in the arab countries of the Persian Gulf, and Allah in his great mercy has surely made it possible for at least some of them to end up in the armories of the Caliphate.
Certainly. The French governments policies, and complacency, played a major role in this tragedy. Just as, say...US foreign and domestic policies and lax enforcement of preexisting policies led to the successful attack of 9/11. Yet in spite of this, I haven't seen any new videos with Osama Bin Laden in them trumpeting his organizations latest exploits. This is because he, and endless thousands of his compatriots...are dead. ISIS and their sympathizers will be joining them. It's extremely unfortunate that innocent Muslims will get caught in the crossfire, but that too is inevitable.
Ezekiel wrote:The muslim enclaves on the outskirts of Paris that have become pretty much an arab state within the state of France are a reality as true as any other aspect of traditional french culture. The narrow-minded politicians that made them possible have now lost control over them, and it is the ordinary people that die because of this. I get the feeling that humanity hasn't learned a single lesson from history. I never imagined I would get to live in a world like the one I see today.
European attitudes towards people who are different than themselves are broadly informed by the most horrifying conflict in human history. Intolerance and xenophobia were the fuel that fed the furnaces both metaphorically and literally. The ensuing reaction against the attitudes that generated the most tragic events to have ever occurred are very understandable...not to mention commendable. Humanity can indeed learn from their mistakes after all.

So these attitudes opposed to intolerance have been targeted as a weakness to be exploited by ISIS and their supporters. No mistake should be made though. People are only human, and civilization is only a thin veneer covering what lies beneath. Tolerance is not limitless. They do not understand what even good people are capable of once the wrong buttons have been pushed. This is what I was referencing in my previous reply...

"They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind"-Sir Arthur Harris, RAF

This was the culmination of the announcement that the British were preparing to strike back at Nazi Germany in retaliation for the Blitz of London and other British cities. It was as prophetic then, as it will prove prophetic today regarding the future of ISIS.
Dogfish
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 934
Joined: 10 years ago

Ezekiel wrote:
Dogfish wrote:Sad to see people blaming immigrants for this. A person leaving their homeland to get a job and a better life, or fleeing it because it's tearing itself apart, is not some agent of evil plotting to destroy the fabric of civilisation. Immigrants are just people trying to live the best they can.

Immigration is a net benefit to any country well-governed enough to attract it (and plenty don't get it, and it's killing them).

The enemy here is ISIS and they're what needs to be dealt with. It's not Islam, it's not foreigners, it's not immigrants. It's just one group of dickheads based out of Syria. We've seen attacks from the same group in the last two weeks in Paris, Beruit and Egypt (as it seems they were responsible for bringing down that Russian airliner). It's a global problem and France's immigration policy is absolutely nothing to do with it. ISIS are one group of people and they need sorting out. They've needed sorting out for years. Probably should have been quicker about it.
Well, to begin with, from what the investigators found so far it appears that at least one of the attackers was a french citizen under the watch of the secret service for known extremist affiliations. These are the sons or grandsons of african immigrants that have become french citizens but for whatever reason can no longer find a place in the french society. The fact that muslim communities in France, the United Kingdom or Sweden are refusing to integrate in the european way of life and are increasingly difficult to deal with is a well-known fact that is blatantly ignored only by politically-correct morons or individuals with shady agendas. I understand that another passport which was found was registered this summer in Greece and would belong to a refugee coming from the Middle East, but it's exact connection with the attacks has yet to be established.

Of course that immigration itself is not the problem. But, I'd remind you that the last time in European history when massive populations settled into lands owned by a different culture and they failed to get along, things ended with the roman civilization falling and opened into a period we now call the Dark Age. It'd be nice if people learned a thing or two from that, but it appears that they have not.
Heh. Maybe you get a different media. I haven't been able to walk past a newspaper stand for as long as I can remember without the headlines screaming at me that foreigners are here to destroy our green and pleasant land. The idea that this is some sort of big secret and never discussed truth is laughable. Our politicians spend a good half of the time talking about immigration, and I'm fairly sure they always have.

The idea that a handful of terrorists represent some sort of existential threat to European civilisation is also an absolute joke. We've had two world wars here mate. We had Actual Hitler. The one off the History Channel. And his tens of millions of fascist stormtroopers. We've had the Russians and Americans looking to use us as a buffer zone in the event of an all out nuclear war too. The idea that a terrorist group whose entire membership probably couldn't fill a football stadium is anything greater than a nuisance is laughable.

I mean, to put this all into perspective, the bomb outside the Stade De France didn't even stop the game.
User avatar
Ezekiel
Sargeant 1st Class
Sargeant 1st Class
Posts: 240
Joined: 11 years ago

I think you may have slightly misunderstood the first point. It's not about ignoring the topic but rather presenting it through rose-colored lenses and deliberately ignoring some simple and obvious, but painfully unpleasant facts. Hopefully the reason for this stems from what kingles wrote in the post above. It's also entirely possible that your media coverage is different from what we get here and that's the reason behind our different attitudes.

The football game wasn't stopped so that the spectators wouldn't panic, run out and risk getting filled with lead. For a laughable nuisance, these guys did a pretty good job at murdering people repeatedly on all sides of the Med, erase from the face of the planet cultural heritage dating back to the stone age and generally making a mess of at least one fully functional country. I'm glad you are so optimistic, but all I see is that the death toll is rising in their favor and that they seem to be getting even better at what they are doing.
Dogfish
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 934
Joined: 10 years ago

Ezekiel wrote:I think you may have slightly misunderstood the first point. It's not about ignoring the topic but rather presenting it through rose-colored lenses and deliberately ignoring some simple and obvious, but painfully unpleasant facts. Hopefully the reason for this stems from what kingles wrote in the post above. It's also entirely possible that your media coverage is different from what we get here and that's the reason behind our different attitudes.

The football game wasn't stopped so that the spectators wouldn't panic, run out and risk getting filled with lead. For a laughable nuisance, these guys did a pretty good job at murdering people repeatedly on all sides of the Med, erase from the face of the planet cultural heritage dating back to the stone age and generally making a mess of at least one fully functional country. I'm glad you are so optimistic, but all I see is that the death toll is rising in their favor and that they seem to be getting even better at what they are doing.
It's not rising in their favour at all as it goes. One of the main reasons ISIS is lashing out is that it is losing ground in Syria. The Kurds have been kicking their arses, the other rebels have been fighting against them, the Iraqi military on their side of the border backed up by US special forces has been gaining ground, and assorted NATO air forces have been bombing them back to the stone age. Given a few more years this is a problem that goes away on its own, although myself, I'd rather see it dealt with more aggressively than that.

It cannot be overstressed too that as much as these deaths are tragic, cities like Paris, London, Moscow and Madrid, they shake this stuff off in a day. There'll be a statue or something to honour the dead, a minute's silence before the next round of football matches, but back to work Monday. There is no actual risk posed by terrorism, statistically the odds of being a victim of it remain utterly insignificant, and they'll run out of bombers long before we run out of people.
jigoku
Neophyte Lvl 5
Neophyte Lvl 5
Posts: 47
Joined: 13 years ago

Unfortunately, it's always the citizens who paid for the mistakes of their leaders.
User avatar
Ezekiel
Sargeant 1st Class
Sargeant 1st Class
Posts: 240
Joined: 11 years ago

There is no actual risk posed by terrorism, statistically the odds of being a victim of it remain utterly insignificant, and they'll run out of bombers long before we run out of people.
Eh, tell that to the dead guys. I would have thought along the same lines 10 years ago, but for some reason I can no longer think about humans as being potato sacks. One death in these circumstances is too many, and for all the big talk and cool attitudes, what remains at the end of the day is that you have hundreds of dead (or soon the be dead, given the chances of survival after someone detonates himself next to you) french civilians, killed far away from any conflict zone in the second terrorist attack in Paris in less than one year. If you're saying that this number of deaths won't bring about the destruction of a nation, of course you are right, I didn't say that either. The danger of failing to integrate a large population of a foreign culture that settles on your grounds is a different issue from terrorism, but the two do go hand in hand in some respects. However, saying that France (or several other western countries for that matter) hasn't changed for the worst in at least some of the areas with a large muslim presence is once again wrong. Hell, they even held a conference in Paris a couple of months ago, essentially on the topic of how a good muslim man should beat his woman in the 21st century, should she be disobedient. They even put the theory in practice on stage, delivering a few roundhouse kicks to a topless chick that protested against the event. Who's to blame here?

From the news updates that I have been reading, it appears that at least one of the attackers actually came in Europe with a recent refugee wave, in the beginning of October. If it turns out to be true, this was much faster than I had anticipated.
Dogfish
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 934
Joined: 10 years ago

Ezekiel wrote:
There is no actual risk posed by terrorism, statistically the odds of being a victim of it remain utterly insignificant, and they'll run out of bombers long before we run out of people.
Eh, tell that to the dead guys. I would have thought along the same lines 10 years ago, but for some reason I can no longer think about humans as being potato sacks. One death in these circumstances is too many, and for all the big talk and cool attitudes, what remains at the end of the day is that you have hundreds of dead (or soon the be dead, given the chances of survival after someone detonates himself next to you) french civilians, killed far away from any conflict zone in the second terrorist attack in Paris in less than one year. If you're saying that this number of deaths won't bring about the destruction of a nation, of course you are right, I didn't say that either. The danger of failing to integrate a large population of a foreign culture that settles on your grounds is a different issue from terrorism, but the two do go hand in hand in some respects. However, saying that France (or several other western countries for that matter) hasn't changed for the worst in at least some of the areas with a large muslim presence is once again wrong. Hell, they even held a conference in Paris a couple of months ago, essentially on the topic of how a good muslim man should beat his woman in the 21st century, should she be disobedient. They even put the theory in practice on stage, delivering a few roundhouse kicks to a topless chick that protested against the event. Who's to blame here?

From the news updates that I have been reading, it appears that at least one of the attackers actually came in Europe with a recent refugee wave, in the beginning of October. If it turns out to be true, this was much faster than I had anticipated.
So we can both agree that terrorism isn't going to bring down a nation. I'm not viewing people like potato sacks either, but there's a cost to do business to live in a free country. You're going to get people taking a poke at you every so often.

Everybody loves that Ben Franklin quote, those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither, but as a political principle it comes with a cost. The cost of liberty over security is there is no way to stop attacks like this. A strong society accepts that, and it mourns the dead and it carries on.

Singling out Muslims on this is just daft by the way. In my lifetime I've seen terrorist attacks in the UK from the IRA, from white supremacists, from ISIS, from Al Queda and (if you accept that individual killings can be terrorism) from Russia. It's not a religious thing. Europe has a history of terrorism that includes fascists, communists, various separatists, angry loners and criminals. To beat it, you beat the terrorists, you don't collectively punish whichever social or racial or religious group you think they belong to.
Dazzle1
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 1770
Joined: 10 years ago

Dogfish wrote:
Ezekiel wrote:
There is no actual risk posed by terrorism, statistically the odds of being a victim of it remain utterly insignificant, and they'll run out of bombers long before we run out of people.
Eh, tell that to the dead guys. I would have thought along the same lines 10 years ago, but for some reason I can no longer think about humans as being potato sacks. One death in these circumstances is too many, and for all the big talk and cool attitudes, what remains at the end of the day is that you have hundreds of dead (or soon the be dead, given the chances of survival after someone detonates himself next to you) french civilians, killed far away from any conflict zone in the second terrorist attack in Paris in less than one year. If you're saying that this number of deaths won't bring about the destruction of a nation, of course you are right, I didn't say that either. The danger of failing to integrate a large population of a foreign culture that settles on your grounds is a different issue from terrorism, but the two do go hand in hand in some respects. However, saying that France (or several other western countries for that matter) hasn't changed for the worst in at least some of the areas with a large muslim presence is once again wrong. Hell, they even held a conference in Paris a couple of months ago, essentially on the topic of how a good muslim man should beat his woman in the 21st century, should she be disobedient. They even put the theory in practice on stage, delivering a few roundhouse kicks to a topless chick that protested against the event. Who's to blame here?

You are wrong almost all terrorist in the world are Moslem. Mthey are not Jewish or Hindunterroirst killing people in Paris.

The IRA analogy does not match. If they had got a United Irelannd, they had no desire to commit genocide on the English people.

Islamist weather ISIS Al quada or Hamas do want to exterminate non believers

From the news updates that I have been reading, it appears that at least one of the attackers actually came in Europe with a recent refugee wave, in the beginning of October. If it turns out to be true, this was much faster than I had anticipated.
So we can both agree that terrorism isn't going to bring down a nation. I'm not viewing people like potato sacks either, but there's a cost to do business to live in a free country. You're going to get people taking a poke at you every so often.

Everybody loves that Ben Franklin quote, those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither, but as a political principle it comes with a cost. The cost of liberty over security is there is no way to stop attacks like this. A strong society accepts that, and it mourns the dead and it carries on.

Singling out Muslims on this is just daft by the way. In my lifetime I've seen terrorist attacks in the UK from the IRA, from white supremacists, from ISIS, from Al Queda and (if you accept that individual killings can be terrorism) from Russia. It's not a religious thing. Europe has a history of terrorism that includes fascists, communists, various separatists, angry loners and criminals. To beat it, you beat the terrorists, you don't collectively punish whichever social or racial or religious group you think they belong to.
User avatar
Ezekiel
Sargeant 1st Class
Sargeant 1st Class
Posts: 240
Joined: 11 years ago

Dogfish wrote:To beat it, you beat the terrorists, you don't collectively punish whichever social or racial or religious group you think they belong to.
Of course, I completely agree with this as well. I'm not in the islamophobic bandwagon, but it strikes me as obvious that in France they have have a problem with radicalization in that community, since they've been through 3-4 attacks by their own muslim citizens this year alone. Where I live we have some problems with ethnic, not religious groups, but it's nothing as serious as in France. It wouldn't strike me for a moment to accuse a whole ethnic group for the wrongdoings of a part of it, but that doesn't mean I can ignore the fact that the problem exists and better measures should be taken against it.
User avatar
Mr. X
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 4598
Joined: 11 years ago
Contact:

Don't disarm civilians. France has some pretty strict gun laws. How did that work out? Oh yes they disarmed the law abiding people.

This talk about "x number of muslims are OK and only a tiny amount are bad" is a red herring. Getting into a numbers game or false accusations of bigotry is not going to fix anything.

There are criminals. There will always be criminals. Police can never stop criminals. Do not disarm the helpless.
User avatar
Ezekiel
Sargeant 1st Class
Sargeant 1st Class
Posts: 240
Joined: 11 years ago

The US is the only civilized country in the world where every couple of months some kid brings daddy's gun to school and murders his colleagues and teachers. I suppose that has something to do with you guys having access to guns in pretty much the same way that we have access to peanuts.

Also, I'm not sure what average joe with pea-shooter will do against crazed jihadi with heavy machine gun. Law enforced officers don't have enough gun practice as it is (for a number of reasons) and have a hard time actually hitting something, the random guy is more likely to shoot a bystander or himself in the foot rather than the terrorist.
Dogfish
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 934
Joined: 10 years ago

Mr. X wrote:Don't disarm civilians. France has some pretty strict gun laws. How did that work out? Oh yes they disarmed the law abiding people.

This talk about "x number of muslims are OK and only a tiny amount are bad" is a red herring. Getting into a numbers game or false accusations of bigotry is not going to fix anything.

There are criminals. There will always be criminals. Police can never stop criminals. Do not disarm the helpless.
You disarm the civilians because it's worth it alone for the number of 1 ) Suicides prevented 2 ) Accidental shootings prevented 3 ) Mass shootings by angry loners prevented. Terrorism and crime doesn't enter into it. Aside from which do you really want a bunch of drunk people at a concert to be carrying firearms on the dance floor, and then using them, in the dark while intoxicated in the event of a terrorist attack? Plus of course, you can't stop a suicide bomber with a gun. The guy explodes. Terrorists with guns, well, if you've got the mettle, and plenty of people do when they're in a fight or die situation, you stop them barehanded. Just like on that French train a few months ago. Guy pulled a gun, people dogpiled him. There was an attempted suicide bomb attack in the UK about ten years ago too, bunch of guys hit Glasgow airport. One of the locals just battered the guy when his vest didn't go off.

And also, in response to your question, 'how did it work out', four out of six attacks failed. The terrorists did almost all their damage in one location, a location where nobody would have been armed and if they had it wouldn't have helped anyway. Four other bombs failed to cause significant damage. Not sure what broke up those other four attacks, maybe just luck, but still, considering what might have happened, things could have been worse.

Worth noting too, we had an attack in the UK where a soldier was chopped up in the street by Jihadists with knives, and those Jihadists also had a gun, which they tried to use on the police who arrived. The gun exploded in the guy's hand. Why? Because it was junk. Why did he have a junk gun? Because unless you've got serious criminal connections you can't get a gun that works, much less a good one. In France alas this hasn't been a problem, apparently there's a flood of old AKs coming in from the Balkans and Ukraine. If you could get guns legally in the UK, those men would have been much better armed.

Interesting thing I was reading today, think it was some stuff from MI5, I'll try and track it down later. They were pointing out that people who have established faith tend to very rarely join radical groups like ISIS. The dangerous people are converts, or people who are just in it for the terrorism anyway, apparently a lot of ISIS recruits are very sleazy characters* who literally pick up an Islam For Dummies** book and go from there. Actual Muslims, people with solid faith, they don't buy into the bullshit.

I'm not usually big on bombing things as a solution to serious world problems but for everybody's sake ISIS got to go. While they might be relatively ineffective at terrorists compared to Al Queda, they're doing much more damage to society as a whole.

*I don't think the sex slave business they've been running would go down well with anybody of legitimate faith. In 2006 even Al Queda got on ISIS's case, when it was fairly new, and asked them to tone their murderousness down. When even Osama Bin Laden's #2 guy thinks you're a big bunch of psychopaths that's a hell of a critique.

** Literally heard of this book being taken from the luggage of a wannabe Jihadi nabbed by customs on his way across Europe heading east.
User avatar
ksire_99
Elder Member
Elder Member
Posts: 443
Joined: 15 years ago

For all the people that live on an island that is telling us Americans it is stupid to have guns...STFU.

The reason we are so "In love with our guns" is because our country was founded on them. That is how we gained our freedom from the King. It is in our constitution.

There are a lot more dangerous things out there now than a hand gun. I am carrying mine a lot more now after Paris and I am sure
I am not alone. And yes, I do feel much safer in that knowledge.

K
User avatar
Mr. X
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 4598
Joined: 11 years ago
Contact:

Ezekiel wrote: Also, I'm not sure what average joe with pea-shooter will do against crazed jihadi with heavy machine gun. Law enforced officers don't have enough gun practice as it is (for a number of reasons) and have a hard time actually hitting something, the random guy is more likely to shoot a bystander or himself in the foot rather than the terrorist.
How is disarming the average joe any better? Sorry but I don't believe people are dicks. They can take care of themselves. Disarming them doesn't help. And that crazed person will ALWAYS get a gun. France incident proved that.
Dogfish
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 934
Joined: 10 years ago

ksire_99 wrote:For all the people that live on an island that is telling us Americans it is stupid to have guns...STFU.

The reason we are so "In love with our guns" is because our country was founded on them. That is how we gained our freedom from the King. It is in our constitution.

There are a lot more dangerous things out there now than a hand gun. I am carrying mine a lot more now after Paris and I am sure
I am not alone. And yes, I do feel much safer in that knowledge.

K
You guys do you. American exceptionalism is part of what makes you folks so much fun. You've got your own units for measurement, your own wacky way of writing the date, your own views about how healthcare should be distributed, a really curious aversion to paid maternity leave, a strong love for sending people to jail, and of course, the gun thing. That's what makes America America, you don't have explain it.

Easy to forget because we share a language and we've double teamed the Germans a couple of times, but we're two very different countries, thousands of miles apart, with completely different histories, geographies, politics and concepts of how many episodes a TV series should be. As such, you feel safer with a gun, I feel safer knowing I'll never see a gun unless I go to an airport or Buckingham Palace.
User avatar
Mr. X
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 4598
Joined: 11 years ago
Contact:

Dogfish wrote: You disarm the civilians because it's worth it alone for the number of 1 ) Suicides prevented 2 ) Accidental shootings prevented 3 ) Mass shootings by angry loners prevented. Terrorism and crime doesn't enter into it. Aside from which do you really want a bunch of drunk people at a concert to be carrying firearms on the dance floor, and then using them, in the dark while intoxicated in the event of a terrorist attack? Plus of course, you can't stop a suicide bomber with a gun. The guy explodes. Terrorists with guns, well, if you've got the mettle, and plenty of people do when they're in a fight or die situation, you stop them barehanded. Just like on that French train a few months ago. Guy pulled a gun, people dogpiled him. There was an attempted suicide bomb attack in the UK about ten years ago too, bunch of guys hit Glasgow airport. One of the locals just battered the guy when his vest didn't go off.
You do not disarm people to prevent suicides. The stats on Australia show suicide rates did not go down, they just shifted from fire arms. People have 1000s of ways to commit suicide. Plus its their life, they can do as they please.

More children die in plastic backyard swimming pools than guns. Again not a reason to ban something.

Mass shootings by angry loners is not provented because 1) guns are strictly blocked in France and the shooters STILL got guns 2) two mass shooting ins Aus even after the gun block. 3) anyone who wants to do a mass shooting will do so like the mass shooter in the netherlands.

No there isn't some OK coral mass shooting incidences or drunks shooting people. Sorry but that's like saying everyone will ram each other with their cars. In fact you cannot produce ONE OK Coral shoot out incident. Not one.

How were the shooters stopped in France with bare hands?
And also, in response to your question, 'how did it work out', four out of six attacks failed. The terrorists did almost all their damage in one location, a location where nobody would have been armed and if they had it wouldn't have helped anyway. Four other bombs failed to cause significant damage. Not sure what broke up those other four attacks, maybe just luck, but still, considering what might have happened, things could have been worse.

You can't say that. The gunmen lined up and mowed people down and since NO ONE was armed they had plenty of time to reload. So helpless sheep are supposed to just hope a weapon fails or a bomb does not go off? So the gunmen weren't a wee bit empowered knowing NO ONE would fight back. Would chaining everyone down make killing them a little easier? Wanna make a law to do that?
Worth noting too, we had an attack in the UK where a soldier was chopped up in the street by Jihadists with knives, and those Jihadists also had a gun, which they tried to use on the police who arrived. The gun exploded in the guy's hand. Why? Because it was junk. Why did he have a junk gun? Because unless you've got serious criminal connections you can't get a gun that works, much less a good one. In France alas this hasn't been a problem, apparently there's a flood of old AKs coming in from the Balkans and Ukraine. If you could get guns legally in the UK, those men would have been much better armed.
Golly sure would have been great for that soldier if he could have carried a weapon TO DEFEND HIMSELF. Hey were the shooters rifles in France junk? Didn't appear to be? so you're just relying on junk guns? Great.
User avatar
ksire_99
Elder Member
Elder Member
Posts: 443
Joined: 15 years ago

Dogfish wrote:
ksire_99 wrote:For all the people that live on an island that is telling us Americans it is stupid to have guns...STFU.

The reason we are so "In love with our guns" is because our country was founded on them. That is how we gained our freedom from the King. It is in our constitution.

There are a lot more dangerous things out there now than a hand gun. I am carrying mine a lot more now after Paris and I am sure
I am not alone. And yes, I do feel much safer in that knowledge.

K
You guys do you. American exceptionalism is part of what makes you folks so much fun. You've got your own units for measurement, your own wacky way of writing the date, your own views about how healthcare should be distributed, a really curious aversion to paid maternity leave, a strong love for sending people to jail, and of course, the gun thing. That's what makes America America, you don't have explain it.

Easy to forget because we share a language and we've double teamed the Germans a couple of times, but we're two very different countries, thousands of miles apart, with completely different histories, geographies, politics and concepts of how many episodes a TV series should be. As such, you feel safer with a gun, I feel safer knowing I'll never see a gun unless I go to an airport or Buckingham Palace.
Pure Arrogance
Dogfish
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 934
Joined: 10 years ago

Mr. X wrote: You do not disarm people to prevent suicides. The stats on Australia show suicide rates did not go down, they just shifted from fire arms. People have 1000s of ways to commit suicide. Plus its their life, they can do as they please.

More children die in plastic backyard swimming pools than guns. Again not a reason to ban something.

Mass shootings by angry loners is not provented because 1) guns are strictly blocked in France and the shooters STILL got guns 2) two mass shooting ins Aus even after the gun block. 3) anyone who wants to do a mass shooting will do so like the mass shooter in the netherlands.

No there isn't some OK coral mass shooting incidences or drunks shooting people. Sorry but that's like saying everyone will ram each other with their cars. In fact you cannot produce ONE OK Coral shoot out incident. Not one.

How were the shooters stopped in France with bare hands?

And also, in response to your question, 'how did it work out', four out of six attacks failed. The terrorists did almost all their damage in one location, a location where nobody would have been armed and if they had it wouldn't have helped anyway. Four other bombs failed to cause significant damage. Not sure what broke up those other four attacks, maybe just luck, but still, considering what might have happened, things could have been worse.
You can't say that. The gunmen lined up and mowed people down and since NO ONE was armed they had plenty of time to reload. So helpless sheep are supposed to just hope a weapon fails or a bomb does not go off? So the gunmen weren't a wee bit empowered knowing NO ONE would fight back. Would chaining everyone down make killing them a little easier? Wanna make a law to do that?
Worth noting too, we had an attack in the UK where a soldier was chopped up in the street by Jihadists with knives, and those Jihadists also had a gun, which they tried to use on the police who arrived. The gun exploded in the guy's hand. Why? Because it was junk. Why did he have a junk gun? Because unless you've got serious criminal connections you can't get a gun that works, much less a good one. In France alas this hasn't been a problem, apparently there's a flood of old AKs coming in from the Balkans and Ukraine. If you could get guns legally in the UK, those men would have been much better armed.
Golly sure would have been great for that soldier if he could have carried a weapon TO DEFEND HIMSELF. Hey were the shooters rifles in France junk? Didn't appear to be? so you're just relying on junk guns? Great.
Okay, apologies for what will inevitably be a quote mess. I'm not good at these. Anywho...

Yeah, you can disarm people to prevent suicides and accidents. When there's not an overwhelming need for guns (in fairness, I think there are plenty of parts of the USA where gun ownership could be considered necessary due to remoteness, local wildlife and so on) you can save a lot of lives just taking gun suicides and accidents out of the equation. And the suicide thing matters, that time it might take a person to try to figure out a way to end themselves that isn't horrific or painful, that could be time that saves their life.

I have never understood the deal with backyard plastic swimming pools. That's weirder than the guns to me. :)

You do prevent the angry loner shooters by making guns illegal. Works out like this. Angry loners are generally law abiding, so they can get guns, and when they do flip out, off they go. But if they don't have legal access to weapons, what do they do? They don't have the contacts to get guns. They don't have the wherewithall to make those contacts, so they're never armed. Criminals can get guns with some effort, but the trade off is that if only criminals are armed you can slap huge sentences on gun ownership and suddenly it's not so appealing. In the UK if you rob a house, you'll do some years, if you rob a house with a gun, you'll do ten more years, so to a professional criminal they lose their value. Terrorists, they have to use what connects they can get, and in France, with the overland routes to the Balkans and Ukraine, those connects are good. Worth noting, we do still get the odd very rare mass shooting in Europe. The USA gets more than one a week (this year especially).

The shooter stopped in France by barehanded people was on a train, it was Americans that did it as it goes. Just jumped him.

The shooters in the Bataclan, let's not forget, killed less than one in ten of the people in there. The Bataclan has a capacity of 1500. If you want 1500 people, a lot of them drunk, to pull guns in the dark and try to shoot the three guys who are firing into the crowd, well, I don't think that helps. Most people fled, the vast majority escaped. And when the police came in they knew the only people with guns would be the bad guys and dropped them in seconds.

The British soldier that was killed in Woolwich was mowed down with a car before they set upon him. No warning, just swerved onto the pavement and ran him down. If he'd been armed all that would have happened is his killers would have acquired a free gun.

Relying on the enemy to have rubbish weapons has worked in the UK. We've had several terrorist attacks since the 7/7 bombings fail because of incompetently constructed home made weapons. Four suicide bombers left looking very sheepish when their backpacks didn't go off. A failed thermobaric weapon in a car. More failed bombs up in Scotland. The logistics help us, because we're an island. The French are not so lucky, although even they seem to have their house fairly well in order, the problem was that the attackers got in from Belgium, which apparently wasn't on the ball at all with these threats (and yes, French undone by enemies coming in from Belgium isn't new, you'd think they'd be used to it by now).
User avatar
Ezekiel
Sargeant 1st Class
Sargeant 1st Class
Posts: 240
Joined: 11 years ago

ksire_99 wrote:For all the people that live on an island that is telling us Americans it is stupid to have guns...STFU.

K
I never said you are stupid. I only said I don't agree with that policy, I don't think it's required here in Europe and I don't want it where I live. I find the issues Dogfish brought up + habitual school shootings taking place over there in the US to be enough of a deterrent in this matter as far as my opinion is concerned. There's plenty of morons roaming around in my society as it is. The last thing it needs is all them packing six-shooters and going Clint Eastwood whenever they get mad in traffic or something like that (thankfully, they can only shoot each other with airguns right now and they do that very often). By all means, keep your guns around if you want to. I feel overall a lot safer knowing there aren't any around.
Mr. X wrote:
How is disarming the average joe any better? Sorry but I don't believe people are dicks. They can take care of themselves. Disarming them doesn't help. And that crazed person will ALWAYS get a gun. France incident proved that.
Oh, there's plenty of straight-up dicks out there, and I'm not taking about reproductive organs. Yes, crazy people will always get a gun and do crazy things. These guys literally blew themselves up, I don't think they would have given a damn against armed resistance and probably would have machine-gunned down a lot more of the hostages if they saw them to be hostile. Hell, they fought with the french special forces for 8 hours when they stormed their building a couple of days ago. Back at Charlie Hebdo, the shooters with AKs turned a police car and the officers inside into swiss cheese. Pea-shooters << machine guns.

Having guns lying around everywhere will create a lot more problems than it solves. More competent intelligence authorities and better border control are the first steps to be taken towards avoiding such tragedies.
Dogfish
Legendary Member
Legendary Member
Posts: 934
Joined: 10 years ago

ksire_99 wrote:
Dogfish wrote:
ksire_99 wrote:For all the people that live on an island that is telling us Americans it is stupid to have guns...STFU.

The reason we are so "In love with our guns" is because our country was founded on them. That is how we gained our freedom from the King. It is in our constitution.

There are a lot more dangerous things out there now than a hand gun. I am carrying mine a lot more now after Paris and I am sure
I am not alone. And yes, I do feel much safer in that knowledge.

K
You guys do you. American exceptionalism is part of what makes you folks so much fun. You've got your own units for measurement, your own wacky way of writing the date, your own views about how healthcare should be distributed, a really curious aversion to paid maternity leave, a strong love for sending people to jail, and of course, the gun thing. That's what makes America America, you don't have explain it.

Easy to forget because we share a language and we've double teamed the Germans a couple of times, but we're two very different countries, thousands of miles apart, with completely different histories, geographies, politics and concepts of how many episodes a TV series should be. As such, you feel safer with a gun, I feel safer knowing I'll never see a gun unless I go to an airport or Buckingham Palace.
Pure Arrogance
What? Just saying I'm not going to judge you. Judging Americans for liking guns is like judging the Japanese for openly reading porn comics on the train or the English for obsessing about the weather. I know to you guys it's a serious issue of personal liberty, but to everybody else in the developed world it's a quirk.
User avatar
Mr. X
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 4598
Joined: 11 years ago
Contact:

Dogfish wrote:
Yeah, you can disarm people to prevent suicides and accidents.
Then you kight as well ban kitchen knives, swimming pools, cars, all prescription drugs, cliffs, nooses.... gonna be doing a lot of banning. And again it doesn't work. Someone just finds another way to commit suicides.
You do prevent the angry loner shooters by making guns illegal.

Actually no. First off most of the angry lone shooters obtained guns legally. They passed the checks. Cho did as well as Loughner. Secondly anyone that is going to shoot people does not care about the law. No they are NOT law abiding when they want to kill. You can fairly easily get guns black market. Shooters gonna shoot.

Criminals in the UK don't use guns cause they know the gov disarmed everyone so a baseball bat will do. All the gov did was make it easier to rob people with muscle.

The shooter stopped in France by barehanded people was on a train, it was Americans that did it as it goes. Just jumped him.
That is an absurd expectation to disarm civilians then expect them to jump gunmen. Were the gunmen in the disco jumped? Edge cases do no make good laws.
The Bataclan has a capacity of 1500. If you want 1500 people, a lot of them drunk, to pull guns in the dark and try to shoot the three guys who are firing into the crowd, well, I don't think that helps. Most people fled, the vast majority escaped. And when the police came in they knew the only people with guns would be the bad guys and dropped them in seconds.
That is a narrow view of people. First off not everyone is going to carry nor carry a weapon with 1500 rounds. Secondly you cannot name ONE OK Coral incident. Not one. Given your reasoning NONE of these people should drive a car or even leave the club. The assumption everyone is a moron is a horrible way to go through life. No they would not shoot up the club.
The British soldier that was killed in Woolwich was mowed down with a car before they set upon him. No warning, just swerved onto the pavement and ran him down. If he'd been armed all that would have happened is his killers would have acquired a free gun.
WOW! This is great! Thanks for a grand example of SOMETHING ELSE that was used as a deadly weapon. So we now ban cars cause they can be used to run someone down? And no other civilian armed couldn't have helped this soldier? Or is everyone supposed to be sheep?
Relying on the enemy to have rubbish weapons has worked in the UK.
Broken clock

We've had several terrorist attacks since the 7/7 bombings fail because of incompetently constructed home made weapons.

And others with good weapons like the Charile Hebdo attack.


Four suicide bombers left looking very sheepish when their backpacks didn't go off.
In new york the marathon one did. So what.


Disarming people is a crime. Its absurd to think its more dangerous for the common man to defend himself than to be prey to gunmen who will always get weapons.
User avatar
tallyho
Ambassador
Ambassador
Posts: 5390
Joined: 13 years ago
Location: Land of No Hope and Past Glories

There have been at least 43 shootings carried out by children under the age of three in the United States so far this year. Guns left within reach of toddlers can have tragic consequences.
In 2015 there has been at least one shooting by a toddler a week in the US.

"We know that states with the most gun laws tend to have the fewest gun deaths."
Barack Obama.

In 31 of the 43 recorded cases, a toddler found a gun and shot themselves. The Washington Post's Wonkblog examined news reports of toddler gun shootings and analysed who was shot in each accident, and which states in the US have the most prevalent toddler gun shootings.
They found that so far in 2015:
• 13 toddlers have killed themselves with guns
• 18 other small children injured themselves
• 10 injured other people
• Two killed other people
The victims in the two cases where others were fatally shot included the father of one toddler who picked up a gun, and the one-year-old brother of another shooter.
The states with the most restrictive gun laws didn't have any recorded toddler shootings.

Data from the Centers for Disease Control indicates that between 2007 and 2011, an average of 62 children age 14 and under were accidentally shot and killed EACH YEAR in the US.


[THOSE EXCERPTS ABOVE ARE FROM THE DAILY TELEGRAPH (UK Newspaper)]

43 SHOOTINGS BY TODDLERS. FFS.

It both staggers and saddens me that people can't see the madness of giving everyone access to guns.


BUT LETS JUST STOP HERE - GUYS THIS THREAD WASN'T SET UP TO BITCH ABOUT GUN LAWS BUT TO EXPRESS SYMPATHY WITH THE VICTIMS OF A TERRORIST TRAGEDY
Last edited by tallyho 8 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

I am here to help one and all enjoy this site, so if you have any questions or feel you are being trolled please contact me (Hit the 'CONTACT' little speech bubble below my Avatar).
User avatar
Mr. X
Millenium Member
Millenium Member
Posts: 4598
Joined: 11 years ago
Contact:

tallyho wrote:There have been at least 43 shootings carried by children under the age of three in the United States so far this year.
Sure lets play this game.

"New CPSC Data Show Child Drownings In Pools and Spas Still A Leading Cause of Death "
http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/News-Re ... -of-Death/

CDC: Too many children still dying in car crashes
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... d/5204127/

Shall I go on?
Post Reply