Does a heroine beatdown mean instant shame and retirement?

[DrDominator9]

If a heroine gets badly defeated in a public moment, does that destroy her effectiveness as a heroine from then on in her "world?"

The following exchange of comments subsequent to the recently posted new story by Centurian is one I think deserves its own thread. So here it is.

I respect an artist and writer holding his ground. This is his masterpiece and expression after all. I too would have loved to read Fox's defeat and sexual humiliation in the ring for the world to see. However, her character would have loss all creditability with the public. She would be forced to retire as superheroine as the public would not respect her especially if Shadow Tiger brought out her kinky side.

GPC, that thought of yours has actually been a huge debate point between Centurion and I, he tending to agree with what you say. I, on the other hand, have disagreed with that notion over and over. Does a top ranked tennis player retire in shame in having lost to an unranked player in the first round of a tennis tournament? Does a champion boxer retire in shame after being upset and losing for the first time? Does a championship caliber football team pack it in the first time the are beaten by a huge underdog?

My thought is, hey, shit happens. Just because the Fox might suffer a loss here and there, even if such loss is to a normal person in shocking manner, that’s no reason to feel utterly “humiliated”, afraid to ever show her face in public again. I kind of prefer to think she’d just rise up, dust herself off, and then continue with her super heroine ways, generally kicking butt!

So anyway, this is always the debate point in Centurion not taking things as far as I am often lobbying for and resisting me at every turn. lol He is generally of the attitude that she cannot simply lose and or be taken sexually, unless some plot device can be created to justify how such has to be by her choice or there has to be a very powerful mitigating excuse. I keep saying I think the “humiliation” thing is an overstated concern.

I do agree, though, that with very public losses or near losses, criminals and villains might become increasingly emboldened, less respectful or afraid of what has now been shown to be a callable super heroine. To me, this is the great allure of it, though, for as a result, she might have to face increasing “challenges” to her power.

Good talking / debate points.

I completely agree with Flirty's take on this. And her examples of champions who come back after defeats is spot on. It's often how a person responds after a huge setback that defines their character. Nobody never gets defeated. So when a champion gets knocked down, if they stay down, that says an awful lot about them. And none of it good.

But Flirty's other point about that hero/heroine losing his or her luster in the public's eye is also true. Villains will be emboldened and that just enriches the drama of that world. Heck, that's one reason why Endgame just made $2 billion!

But what does everyone else say? Are there defeats that champions can't come back from? Or shouldn't try to come back from?

[tallyho]

Depends on the defeat and the heroine. Batgirl unmasked doesnt leave her anywhere to go. Turns up for work at the library and gets gunned down? Her whole life changes if she is unmasked, as well as the relationship with her father.
A sexual defeat in public shames a heroine and objectifies her - it reduces her credibility and reputation. How can she defend the city if she cant even defend herself?

A non sexual defeat on the other hand allows for them to bounce back and regain their reputation - they may have lost a battle but can win the war

[DrDominator9]

Depends on the defeat and the heroine. Batgirl unmasked doesnt leave her anywhere to go. Turns up for work at the library and gets gunned down? Her whole life changes if she is unmasked, as well as the relationship with her father.

It's hard to argue this point. An unmasking will destroy a heroine's world, for sure, unless she ends up picking a new persona. How many times can that happen before she hangs up her cape?

A sexual defeat in public shames a heroine and objectifies her - it reduces her credibility and reputation. How can she defend the city if she cant even defend herself?

Yes, the humiliation is severe but if she comes back and defeats the villain in a similarly public way, that would go quite a way to restoring the heroine's reputation. It could even enhance it. "Look what he did to her and yet she persevered!" That becomes a role model for picking yourself up, the essence of heroism.

A non sexual defeat on the other hand allows for them to bounce back and regain their reputation - they may have lost a battle but can win the war

A non-sexual defeat can still be devastating to the heroine, but yes she can come back from it. The problem there is that the public display of how she's taken down becomes a template for future villains.

[GeekyPornCritic]

A forced retirement depends on the circumstances. Spider-Man would go to jail in half of his stories if he is unmasked. The police is often wrongly accusing him of crimes. Spider-man would be in a forced retirement by the law in jail.

I also mention a sexual defeat in public destroys a heroine's reputation in the public's eyes. If she has orgasms in public, then she would be a disgrace for enjoying her sexual defeat. She would not be taken seriously as a heroine. She could get fired if she is an employed heroine in a special organization by the government and they suspect she enjoyed it. Her public display of sexual pleasure would shame a government organization. Every villain would want to have sex with her. She could never afford to lose ever again because she would get fucked.

Pregnancy is also a way to force a heroine into retirement. A random thug defeating, fucking, seducing, and cumming inside a heroine can be damning. She can become pregnant, and her child will be the center of her world. She can no longer risk being a heroine. Her child would be without a mother if she is killed on duty.

[Femina]

Marvel doesn't have secret identities and they truck along fine. If Batgirl was unmasked, the only thing that would change is that she wouldn't HAVE to wear a mask anymore, and she'd be dealing with some more pressure at home.

My own idea of human psychology in this fictional enterprise is as follows:

If it's IN you to run around, leaping across rooftops and moonlighting at night out of an intense urging to measure and deal out justice, it doesn't just end when someone's seen your face.

Does it make it more difficult? Sure. Does it turn you into someone who is no longer driven by an intense urge to measure out and deal justice? Not even remotely.


As for SEXUAL issues. In REALITY, the vast majority of human beings witnessing their superheroine being raped by a villain in public would almost unilaterally make it harder for the VILLAIN to show themselves in public than it would for the heroine. The heroine would likely be heaped upon with uncomfortable amounts of sympathy. After all, she was put in this spot of sexual vulnerability while trying to help someone. Though I submit that this perspective may be variable dependent upon ones outlook toward the human race being one of optimism or pessimism.

[Bert]

"In REALITY, the vast majority of human beings witnessing their superheroine being raped by a villain in public would almost unilaterally make it harder for the VILLAIN to show themselves in public than it would for the heroine. The heroine would likely be heaped upon with uncomfortable amounts of sympathy. After all, she was put in this spot of sexual vulnerability while trying to help someone."

Thank you for that perspective. While I'm sure there would be a degree of shame for a heroine to be taken publicly, I don't see it as career ending. The punctured aura of invulnerability would be a challenge, but to me that's feature, not a bug. And I think you're right that the public response would be one of sympathy and support.

[tallyho]

Marvel doesn't have secret identities and they truck along fine.

Yeah because the stories are written that way. The reality would be any nut job with a gun would be taking a crack at killing Stark, without any actual criminals trying to kill him when he is out of the iron man suit.

[Imagineer]

I think what's right for the story really depends on what your kink is, not logic. You're going to build logic to support your kink.

I see a lot of work in this genre in which the portrayal of the public is shocking... because that's what the kink wants.

Absent a kink, what's right for the story depends on what you want next for the character.
More of the same, reinvention, corruption, or retirement?

[tallyho]

"In REALITY, the vast majority of human beings witnessing their superheroine being raped by a villain in public would almost unilaterally make it harder for the VILLAIN to show themselves in public than it would for the heroine. The heroine would likely be heaped upon with uncomfortable amounts of sympathy. After all, she was put in this spot of sexual vulnerability while trying to help someone."

Thank you for that perspective. While I'm sure there would be a degree of shame for a heroine to be taken publicly, I don't see it as career ending. The punctured aura of invulnerability would be a challenge, but to me that's feature, not a bug. And I think you're right that the public response would be one of sympathy and support.

But guys that's the point that's being made - heroines are supposed to be admired and aspired to not PITIED
or sympathized with. Once they have had the sexual public defeat its a case of 'poor girl she shouldn't be be doing it, she's not up to it' in the public mindset
So you got a triple whammy of heroine losing self confidence in her abilities, joe public losing confidence in her ability to protect them and the criminals thinking they stand a good chance of besting her if they come across her again

[Femina]

Marvel doesn't have secret identities and they truck along fine.

Yeah because the stories are written that way. The reality would be any nut job with a gun would be taking a crack at killing Stark, without any actual criminals trying to kill him when he is out of the iron man suit.

AHA! You've fallen into the trap! (No not really) You see, the issue now becomes, are we discussing what we believe, or what we think an author intends to impress upon the reader. In Iron Man 3 they TRY to take a gun to stark and it goes badly for them. (Driving to Superman's house to shoot his wife, to MOST people, would be SUICIDALY unintelligent)

We can't really have a long discussion over whether we think these things would work in this universe or that universe though since if it only matters how its written, than the measure of a heroines career in relation to her humiliation is entirely one of personal preference as imparted to us via the authorial voice and therefore isn't really a conversations xD.

Fairly, this invalidates my initial 'in marvel' point... but it was really more of a 'tag' observation, the rest of what I wrote after that is more my argument.

But guys that's the point that's being made - heroines are supposed to be admired and aspired to not PITIED
or sympathized with. Once they have had the sexual public defeat its a case of 'poor girl she shouldn't be be doing it, she's not up to it' in the public mindset
So you got a triple whammy of heroine losing self confidence in her abilities, joe public losing confidence in her ability to protect them and the criminals thinking they stand a good chance of besting her if they come across her again

The public's opinion about the superheroine is irrelevant inasfar as her actual continued career. Someone's perspective of how well I'm doing psychologically is not fact. My own psychological failings do not set in stone my ability to overcome them, merely the difficulty in doing so.

[GeekyPornCritic]

Marvel doesn't have secret identities and they truck along fine. If Batgirl was unmasked, the only thing that would change is that she wouldn't HAVE to wear a mask anymore, and she'd be dealing with some more pressure at home.

Batgirl would have a ton of legal problems. Her daddy is the police commissioner. Many cases could be dismissed on the grounds of illegally obtaining evidence without a warrant by Batgirl and illegal arrest by a vigilante. James Gordon could be accused of being evolved even though we know he is not.

[Damselbinder]

What needs to be remembered is that these events are taking place in stories. Now by that I do not mean to suggest that we must ignore all logic or that stories are immune from criticism on grounds of good sense. What I mean is that things happen in stories to lead to other things. If a writer wants a "rising from the ashes" story where a heroine is driven to absolute rock bottom - say, by a humiliating defeat - then yes, it is conceivable that this heroine would be in all likelihood completely unable to operate. Either the circumstances would make her life particularly difficult, like Batgirl, or the world in which she lives in is particularly mean-spirited (the Marvel 616-verse, sometimes). But presumably the writer will have something in mind to redeem her. Some very unlikely event will happen which will either restore the status-quo, or create a new one in which it is nevertheless possible for her to return to heroism.

The world is what the writer wants it to be. The logic of the real world is a necessary component to making stories feel real, but the logic of narrative rules. What must happen, will happen.

[Femina]

Marvel doesn't have secret identities and they truck along fine. If Batgirl was unmasked, the only thing that would change is that she wouldn't HAVE to wear a mask anymore, and she'd be dealing with some more pressure at home.

Batgirl would have a ton of legal problems. Her daddy is the police commissioner. Many cases could be dismissed on the grounds of illegally obtaining evidence without a warrant by Batgirl and illegal arrest by a vigilante. James Gordon could be accused of being evolved even though we know he is not.

Would she? Gotham seems pretty much in the 'Vigilante Justice is legally permissible' or else the 'Police pretend like its permissible' camp. Batman brings evidence, it gets used to put people away. The fact that her dad is the Commissioner seems like a point in favor of not getting arrested more than the other way around, and it all requires Gotham giving two craps whatsoever... in all my experience, the Police in Gotham City... in DC comics all around really, is that vigilantes and superheroes are the bees knees.

The world is what the writer wants it to be. The logic of the real world is a necessary component to making stories feel real, but the logic of narrative rules. What must happen, will happen.

Yeah that's the thing I brought up a bit ago, the thing is, I don't know if this topic is necessarily indicating that a story can't make its own internal logical stance on the subject... just what seems more logical to the reader/viewer... experiencer?

[Damselbinder]

Yeah that's the thing I brought up a bit ago, the thing is, I don't know if this topic is necessarily indicating that a story can't make its own internal logical stance on the subject... just what seems more logical to the reader/viewer... experiencer?

But if that's the case, then given the infinite possible numbers of ways that this scenario can go, then this conversation is doomed to go in circles. Of course it's possible that a heroine might be forced into retirement by a defeat and it's possible that they won't. It will depend entirely on the particular circumstances of the story, and what the writer intends to happen afterwards.

[Femina]

Yeah that's the thing I brought up a bit ago, the thing is, I don't know if this topic is necessarily indicating that a story can't make its own internal logical stance on the subject... just what seems more logical to the reader/viewer... experiencer?

But if that's the case, then given the infinite possible numbers of ways that this scenario can go, then this conversation is doomed to go in circles. Of course it's possible that a heroine might be forced into retirement by a defeat and it's possible that they won't. It will depend entirely on the particular circumstances of the story, and what the writer intends to happen afterwards.

Almost every conversation on the internet is doomed to go in circles. I don't know if the topic was made to discuss seeking a definitive answer.... or just asking for opinions though.

[GeekyPornCritic]

As for SEXUAL issues. In REALITY, the vast majority of human beings witnessing their superheroine being raped by a villain in public would almost unilaterally make it harder for the VILLAIN to show themselves in public than it would for the heroine. The heroine would likely be heaped upon with uncomfortable amounts of sympathy. After all, she was put in this spot of sexual vulnerability while trying to help someone. Though I submit that this perspective may be variable dependent upon ones outlook toward the human race being one of optimism or pessimism.

If a heroine is defeated and fucked in public, then there will be sides in society. I agree some people will offer sympathy for the heroine. She fights to protect the good citizens. She saved many people, and has earned the respect of those personally saved by her.

However, there are sick and twisted people in this world and country. Villains would be tempted to violate the heroine as well. They now know how to defeat her and even know her g-spot if she experienced shameful orgasms in public during her defeat.

This is a quote from Brock Turner's father "[The sentence] is a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action out of his 20 plus years of life". Brock Turner is the horrible excuse for a human, who received three months in jail and three years of probation for raping a woman.

The villain in this type of story could face another judge like this. Furthermore, there are horrible people like Brock's father who will says it was "action". Then, some dumb people will blame the heroine for dressing too sexy in her costume and say "she was asking to get fucked. Did you see her cum like a whore?". These types of people pose a threat to the heroine and may also try to violate her. They may also believe the villain had the right to violate her since "she was asking for it".

[DrDominator9]

Yeah that's the thing I brought up a bit ago, the thing is, I don't know if this topic is necessarily indicating that a story can't make its own internal logical stance on the subject... just what seems more logical to the reader/viewer... experiencer?

But if that's the case, then given the infinite possible numbers of ways that this scenario can go, then this conversation is doomed to go in circles. Of course it's possible that a heroine might be forced into retirement by a defeat and it's possible that they won't. It will depend entirely on the particular circumstances of the story, and what the writer intends to happen afterwards.

Almost every conversation on the internet is doomed to go in circles. I don't know if the topic was made to discuss seeking a definitive answer.... or just asking for opinions though.

Honestly, I was seeking opinions from readers and writers about how they would feel about a story in which a heroine got a beatdown: would they almost automatically expect a certain conclusion that she'd be toast as a heroine or would they hope for a "get off the mat" kind of resurgence. Clearly we've pretty much come to the conclusion that in fiction its up to the writer's approach.

[Femina]

As for SEXUAL issues. In REALITY, the vast majority of human beings witnessing their superheroine being raped by a villain in public would almost unilaterally make it harder for the VILLAIN to show themselves in public than it would for the heroine. The heroine would likely be heaped upon with uncomfortable amounts of sympathy. After all, she was put in this spot of sexual vulnerability while trying to help someone. Though I submit that this perspective may be variable dependent upon ones outlook toward the human race being one of optimism or pessimism.

If a heroine is defeated and fucked in public, then there will be sides in society. I agree some people will offer sympathy for the heroine. She fights to protect the good citizens. She saved many people, and has earned the respect of those personally saved by her.

However, there are sick and twisted people in this world and country. Villains would be tempted to violate the heroine as well. They now know how to defeat her and even know her g-spot if she experienced shameful orgasms in public during her defeat.

This is a quote from Brock Turner's father "[The sentence] is a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action out of his 20 plus years of life". Brock Turner is the horrible excuse for a human, who received three months in jail and three years of probation for raping a woman.

The villain in this type of story could face another judge like this. Furthermore, there are horrible people like Brock's father who will says it was "action". Then, some dumb people will blame the heroine for dressing too sexy in her costume and say "she was asking to get fucked. Did you see her cum like a whore?". These types of people pose a threat to the heroine and may also try to violate her. They may also believe the villain had the right to violate her since "she was asking for it".

If you're comparing the prison sentence that would befall a rapist whose crimes were barely noticed by the world vs the sort of rapist who would have been denounced on every news station in the country replete with video evidence or the sort of unquestionable eye witness sort of public defeat we're talking about here, for doing this out in the open to such a publicly loved figure... I think you'd find that national pressure alone would up the sentence quite a lot...

but I'm not really talking about the legal repercussions here.

The only thing that will stop a heroine from being a heroine is her own conscious CHOICE to quit. Maybe she'll go to jail for vigilantism for a couple of months to a couple of years, maybe she'll have PTSD, maybe she'll be to embarrassed to go back out... but I contend, that a human being of sufficient psychological temperment as to take to the streets and zealously seek out justice for injustice is unlikely to consider a loss as 'the end of everything'... that's the sort of cut and run attitude that probably would have kicked in a lot sooner during the ramp oneself up into a sufficient mindset to BECOME a vigilante in the first place phase. If you can pass that hurdle (and let's analyze the real world here, very VERY few have EVER passed that hurdle) whatever psychological switch that has caused that impulse is unlikely to just end.

[batgirl1969]

Happens in the "Real" superheroine world also...Imagine lets say that during a riot in a certain city...a certain batgirl gets jumped, takes a beat down, has her costume shredded, mask stolen, groped but not fucked or raped, a few dicks in her face mocking her and finally almost lit on fire after they pour alchohol on you just before the police barricade makes its way past the building she is in....beaten defeated and embarresed but she is able to make it out alive, get back to her bike and make it to the train only to go home, lick her wounds and go out for more a few weeks later....it won't stop her!!

[Get Your Exxon]

With respect, I think it’s a silly question. A good story...well anything can happen, just like in life.

Someone else mentioned Steve Jobs: he was finished (fired from his own company) and no one thought he would return and save Apple from near bankruptcy.

Not to get political but Trump is another great example. Love him, hate him (whatever) he’s broken every convention.

Basically, I don’t see why a public beatdown or shaming should be the end. to me it sounds like a great narrative. Hope this means someone is writing this story.

My theory is that Knightfall where Bane breaks Batman’s back is the premise for most heroine beat down erotica. A good narrative requires the heroine to fail or overcome a deafeat. A public shaming is an example of this.

I ain’t the smartest. But I can’t believe two authors are debating this. It’s good click bait though. Time changes everything, what matters here (in my opinion) is the heroine’s motivations. If she has something still to achieve then yes I could see her willing to go back out - cue the training montage.

[GeekyPornCritic]

As for SEXUAL issues. In REALITY, the vast majority of human beings witnessing their superheroine being raped by a villain in public would almost unilaterally make it harder for the VILLAIN to show themselves in public than it would for the heroine. The heroine would likely be heaped upon with uncomfortable amounts of sympathy. After all, she was put in this spot of sexual vulnerability while trying to help someone. Though I submit that this perspective may be variable dependent upon ones outlook toward the human race being one of optimism or pessimism.

If a heroine is defeated and fucked in public, then there will be sides in society. I agree some people will offer sympathy for the heroine. She fights to protect the good citizens. She saved many people, and has earned the respect of those personally saved by her.

However, there are sick and twisted people in this world and country. Villains would be tempted to violate the heroine as well. They now know how to defeat her and even know her g-spot if she experienced shameful orgasms in public during her defeat.

This is a quote from Brock Turner's father "[The sentence] is a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action out of his 20 plus years of life". Brock Turner is the horrible excuse for a human, who received three months in jail and three years of probation for raping a woman.

The villain in this type of story could face another judge like this. Furthermore, there are horrible people like Brock's father who will says it was "action". Then, some dumb people will blame the heroine for dressing too sexy in her costume and say "she was asking to get fucked. Did you see her cum like a whore?". These types of people pose a threat to the heroine and may also try to violate her. They may also believe the villain had the right to violate her since "she was asking for it".

If you're comparing the prison sentence that would befall a rapist whose crimes were barely noticed by the world vs the sort of rapist who would have been denounced on every news station in the country replete with video evidence or the sort of unquestionable eye witness sort of public defeat we're talking about here, for doing this out in the open to such a publicly loved figure... I think you'd find that national pressure alone would up the sentence quite a lot...

but I'm not really talking about the legal repercussions here.

The only thing that will stop a heroine from being a heroine is her own conscious CHOICE to quit. Maybe she'll go to jail for vigilantism for a couple of months to a couple of years, maybe she'll have PTSD, maybe she'll be to embarrassed to go back out... but I contend, that a human being of sufficient psychological temperment as to take to the streets and zealously seek out justice for injustice is unlikely to consider a loss as 'the end of everything'... that's the sort of cut and run attitude that probably would have kicked in a lot sooner during the ramp oneself up into a sufficient mindset to BECOME a vigilante in the first place phase. If you can pass that hurdle (and let's analyze the real world here, very VERY few have EVER passed that hurdle) whatever psychological switch that has caused that impulse is unlikely to just end.

You are overestimating the power of "the court of public opinion". Take a look at cases of unarmed black men being shot. George Zimmerman is walking free. He is not hiding at all. Nobody even talks about him these days.

A rich and powerful man who hates the heroine may also help the victorious villain. A good lawyer would argue that the act of public sex was staged. She is wearing a silly costume that looks like something a stripper would wear on Halloween. The heroine was wearing a sexy costume and asked this villain to do it to gain attention in the media.

[flirty_but_nice]

Wow, I am flattered that my comment in the Fuchsia Fox thread has spawned such an interesting discussion.

The way I look at it, as always, I imagine that it is ME that is the superheroine. If I had all these superpowers, say like the Fuchsia Fox, as long as I came away with my health reasonably intact, I just can’t see why a loss would prevent me from carrying on in the name of good and justice.

As for if in such a defeat I was also taken sexually in a very public way, again, for me, it’s just not that big of a deal that would cause me to feel such immense “humiliation” that I’d feel too shamed to show myself in public ever again. To this thought, though, one has to understand that I am extremely liberal when it comes to sex, to the point that some might call me slut or some might call me depraved. Hence, to me sex is just almost purely about physical gratification and one’s “body” is nothing to be ashamed over. My attitude also is, girl, if you’ve got it, feel free to flaunt it! <bats eyelashes>.

Now my own personal thought about it as stated aside, if a particular superheroine is more of a prude, loathing sex, ashamed of the very idea of her body being on display, then I can see that a scenario of being publicly defeated and publicly taken sexually might lead her to feel extreme shame and humiliation, which might n turn cripple her desire to ever be seen in public again.

Within the context of the Fuchsia Fox stories, I have lobbied Centurion HARD to allow the Fox to be very liberal in sexual nature, sexually experimental, and quite exhibitionist in kink. There has already been several stories that have established the Fox of even enjoying modest bondage and the like. Now, I do get a TON of pushback from Centurion on how far he is willing to go in all of that, but, bless his soul, he seems to want to please my personal desires and kinks, so he often will go quite far beyond his comfort zone in incorporating so many of my depraved ideas. <blush>

At the end of the day, though, I think the entire debate just comes down to a matter of personal taste and morality within each individual reader and author. We’re all unique individual creatures ... and one person’s kink may be another person’s disgust. Live and let live.

(Oh, and for those of you that have not yet done so, your comments and review of the particular Fuchsia Fox story that spawned this discussion, in that story thread, are VERY much appreciated. :x)

[Femina]

You are overestimating the power of "the court of public opinion". Take a look at cases of unarmed black men being shot. George Zimmerman is walking free. He is not hiding at all. Nobody even talks about him these days.

A rich and powerful man who hates the heroine may also help the victorious villain. A good lawyer would argue that the act of public sex was staged. She is wearing a silly costume that looks like something a stripper would wear on Halloween. The heroine was wearing a sexy costume and asked this villain to do it to gain attention in the media.

I'm really not. I think you may be overestimating the power of a persons Image on the entirety of their being. Public opinion really only DIRECTLY maters to your image. The IMAGE of a heroine's career is not her ACTUAL career. The public thinking something is done, doesn't make it actually done. The deciding qualifier is the heroine herself. All other factors may inform her decision, but her own decisive CHOICE is ultimately 'the golden snitch' making much of the qualifiers ultimately redundant at the end of the afternoon. If she CHOOSES to continue, than her career as a superheroine isn't over, no matter how many newspapers scream it at the nights sky... I mean we're talking about a career choice here that she was never officially 'permitted' to start in the first place, so why would anything 'official' hold the power to force her to stop? She's already STARTED being a vigilante, which is the biggest hurdle to actually being a Vigilante and also sort of kind of a form of zealot-like insanity. She's past the 'amp herself up' stage and is actually doing it, she knew that eventually she might get the stuffing beat out of her, she did it anyway. Why would getting the stuffing beat out of her therefore convince her that 'whelp I guess its over?'

As a woman myself I'm telling you that failing at something doesn't invariably mean that I won't ever attempt it again, and while there's no question that undesired sexual misconduct committed against me would have a lasting psychological impact, the vast majority of sexual assault victims get back up, dust themselves off and refuse to let the incident rule their lives forever.

I think our difference here is that from a fantastical stance, in prose and such, its grandeous to say 'oh she's ruined in the papers, this is the end!!!!' While in reality, the public eventually forgets what came before and eventually doesn't even care when reminded (Mel Gibson still gets work, and often praise, his blowup hurt, we see him less, but it didn't make him quit Hollywood)

[GeekyPornCritic]

You are overestimating the power of "the court of public opinion". Take a look at cases of unarmed black men being shot. George Zimmerman is walking free. He is not hiding at all. Nobody even talks about him these days.

A rich and powerful man who hates the heroine may also help the victorious villain. A good lawyer would argue that the act of public sex was staged. She is wearing a silly costume that looks like something a stripper would wear on Halloween. The heroine was wearing a sexy costume and asked this villain to do it to gain attention in the media.

I'm really not. I think you may be overestimating the power of a persons Image on the entirety of their being. Public opinion really only DIRECTLY maters to your image. The IMAGE of a heroine's career is not her ACTUAL career. The public thinking something is done, doesn't make it actually done. The deciding qualifier is the heroine herself. All other factors may inform her decision, but her own decisive CHOICE is ultimately 'the golden snitch' making much of the qualifiers ultimately redundant at the end of the afternoon. If she CHOOSES to continue, than her career as a superheroine isn't over, no matter how many newspapers scream it at the nights sky... I mean we're talking about a career choice here that she was never officially 'permitted' to start in the first place, so why would anything 'official' hold the power to force her to stop? She's already STARTED being a vigilante, which is the biggest hurdle to actually being a Vigilante and also sort of kind of a form of zealot-like insanity. She's past the 'amp herself up' stage and is actually doing it, she knew that eventually she might get the stuffing beat out of her, she did it anyway. Why would getting the stuffing beat out of her therefore convince her that 'whelp I guess its over?'

As a woman myself I'm telling you that failing at something doesn't invariably mean that I won't ever attempt it again, and while there's no question that undesired sexual misconduct committed against me would have a lasting psychological impact, the vast majority of sexual assault victims get back up, dust themselves off and refuse to let the incident rule their lives forever.

I think our difference here is that from a fantastical stance, in prose and such, its grandeous to say 'oh she's ruined in the papers, this is the end!!!!' While in reality, the public eventually forgets what came before and eventually doesn't even care when reminded (Mel Gibson still gets work, and often praise, his blowup hurt, we see him less, but it didn't make him quit Hollywood)

Being a superheroine is not a normal career choice. I can't fully compare it to my desires to succeed in a particular career.

We should also consider the rape culture in America if we are assuming the heroine is an American and the violation takes place in America. Ben Roethlisberger, Kobe Bryant, Mike Tyson, and other famous rapist continue to receive respect in the media and have support from fans. If this evildoer is well-known and even liked in some circles like Agent Liberty in Supergirl, then evildoer may not receive any consequences.

What is the point of being a heroine when the law does not fight for you? It's damning in any situation in life when you work so hard for no one to have your back in your time of need. Is it worth risking your life? Maybe a different path to deliver justice would be better than being a superheroine. Sometimes we must legally infiltrate the system to fix it by becoming a lawyer, teacher, or politician.

[Femina]

Being a superheroine is not a normal career choice. I can't fully compare it to my desires to succeed in a particular career.

No, its not, it requires an extremist mindset to even consider going outside the law to beat the shit out of criminals in the hopes they'll become to afraid to commit crimes, and extremist mindsets tend to be LESS malleable and harder to quit than mundane mindsets, which can already be difficult enough to break past the age of 14 or so as it is.

We should also consider the rape culture in America if we are assuming the heroine is an American and the violation takes place in America. Ben Roethlisberger, Kobe Bryant, Mike Tyson, and other famous rapist continue to receive respect in the media and have support from fans. If this evildoer is well-known and even liked in some circles like Agent Liberty in Supergirl, then evildoer may not receive any consequences.

I think you're overestimating the average human beings tolerance for these things. Generally, support for such people is a result of willfull ignorance or an ignorant disbelief that the person or persons in question actually committed the crime or not. A 'few' outliers champion such actions sure... but they are the exception, not the rule, or else it wouldn't be safe to go outside. The sort of public umasking, defeat/rape we're discussing here as would be significant enough to bring the topics question into account would likely be IRREFUTABLE.

What is the point of being a heroine when the law does not fight for you? It's damning in any situation in life when you work so hard for no one to have your back in your time of need. Is it worth risking your life? Maybe a different path to deliver justice would be better than being a superheroine. Sometimes we must legally infiltrate the system to fix it by becoming a lawyer, teacher, or politician.

Isn't this the question that Batman and his ilk struggle with every day in gotham City? It's this sort of injustice that drives these people insane enough to take up a zealous persuit of justice. Zealous behavior is HARDER to break that mundane mindsets as I've said above. If you BELIEVE that what you're doing is what you HAVE to do to such an extent as to put on a mask and go out and beat up thugs than its IN you and is going to be EXTRAORDINARILY difficult to get 'out' of you. More likely than not, it'd take a therapist ten years to make Bruce Wayne even consider that Gotham might not actually need him, he's basically subjected to traumas somewhat comparable in psychological impact to what a woman goes through in rape by the Joker once or twice a decade as it is and he hasn't quit yet? Barbara Gordon was PARALYZED for a decade, which if you ask me, is ten times worse than rape or being unmasked, and you know what? She got right back out there as soon as she got a miracle cure so I don't think this assumption follows even in comic books.

[GeekyPornCritic]

This is a very fun topic. It is giving me loads of ideas for custom scripts. There is one side of the heroine rising above defeat, and there is the side of the heroine retiring in shame. Both takes on the results from the humiliation are very good.

One point that no one has addressed is villains like Poison Ivy and Lust from my Ultra Girl custom. These types of villains use drugs, magical powers, or nature such as smells to seduce heroines. I don't think a heroine would retire if she is taken publicly under this circumstance. I think the public and law enforcement would think the heroine consented to the act without realizing the reason why the heroine consented.

I think you're overestimating the average human beings tolerance for these things. Generally, support for such people is a result of willfull ignorance or an ignorant disbelief that the person or persons in question actually committed the crime or not. A 'few' outliers champion such actions sure... but they are the exception, not the rule, or else it wouldn't be safe to go outside. The sort of public umasking, defeat/rape we're discussing here as would be significant enough to bring the topics question into account would likely be IRREFUTABLE.

Willful ignorance is a form of a tolerance. A person is willingly ignoring the facts and continues to harm others. This person is fully aware there is a problem, and refuses to address it, thus being tolerant.

[dodosony]

For me, in a story, anyone villain who can beat down a superheroine with any reasonable and possible methods will no doubt make the story exciting to read. Yet, in my view, beaten a superheroine in public through rape or something like that is not an essential condition which directly lead to a retirement in most cases. The reason is, I suppose GPC's point of view probably depend on an innocent role image and that makes sense if Fox was defeated and humiliated in public then she will lose all her creditability in her world. In other words, let's say if there is an extreme case which Fox's superpower linked to her virginity and she will lose all her power if she made coitus with anybody. It is no doubt that Fox loss all her fame and she cannot be Fuchsia Fox in future if she was forced to make love with her boyfriend or hoodlum. Such kind of scenario is popular in many Wonder Woman like stories, for example, Barnabus’ Wonder Woman Loses Her Powers – Part One (https://www.dangerbabecentral.com/xpage ... wlosp1.htm) tells a story about Wonder Woman and her little sister use their virginity to save Steve who suffered from a medical condition that required sex to avoid to die.

As Flirty mentioned in the reply, the attitude to sex and public humiliation is some kind of personal choice. I think it is not a good idea which links fame, virginity and any kind of one-time setting on protagonist’s image or personality for a writer who wants to keep a long series of story -- especially like the world of Fuchsia Fox that had already published with more than sixty installments. It is also important to point out that, in order to show her braveness and strong will, a superheroine should not excessive concern to be utterly humiliated in public. Moreover, from the need for sustainable development of a superheroine world, a sexual defeat in public should only reduce the protagonist’s credibility and reputation in a slight to medium level. For instance, the story of Fuchsia Fox may end in a few years ago if Fox decided to retire when she was raped by Nibiru or DVM in Arena of Doom/ Rumble in Da Hood. Thus, a liberal opinion to sex will not only the lower sense of shame when Fox took sexually in public but also it becomes a positive function that consolidates Fox's will to fight against tough villains as well as her relationship with Martin.

Dodo

Wow, I am flattered that my comment in the Fuchsia Fox thread has spawned such an interesting discussion.

The way I look at it, as always, I imagine that it is ME that is the superheroine. If I had all these superpowers, say like the Fuchsia Fox, as long as I came away with my health reasonably intact, I just can’t see why a loss would prevent me from carrying on in the name of good and justice.

As for if in such a defeat I was also taken sexually in a very public way, again, for me, it’s just not that big of a deal that would cause me to feel such immense “humiliation” that I’d feel too shamed to show myself in public ever again. To this thought, though, one has to understand that I am extremely liberal when it comes to sex, to the point that some might call me slut or some might call me depraved. Hence, to me sex is just almost purely about physical gratification and one’s “body” is nothing to be ashamed over. My attitude also is, girl, if you’ve got it, feel free to flaunt it! <bats eyelashes>.

Now my own personal thought about it as stated aside, if a particular superheroine is more of a prude, loathing sex, ashamed of the very idea of her body being on display, then I can see that a scenario of being publicly defeated and publicly taken sexually might lead her to feel extreme shame and humiliation, which might n turn cripple her desire to ever be seen in public again.

Within the context of the Fuchsia Fox stories, I have lobbied Centurion HARD to allow the Fox to be very liberal in sexual nature, sexually experimental, and quite exhibitionist in kink. There has already been several stories that have established the Fox of even enjoying modest bondage and the like. Now, I do get a TON of pushback from Centurion on how far he is willing to go in all of that, but, bless his soul, he seems to want to please my personal desires and kinks, so he often will go quite far beyond his comfort zone in incorporating so many of my depraved ideas. <blush>

At the end of the day, though, I think the entire debate just comes down to a matter of personal taste and morality within each individual reader and author. We’re all unique individual creatures ... and one person’s kink may be another person’s disgust. Live and let live.

(Oh, and for those of you that have not yet done so, your comments and review of the particular Fuchsia Fox story that spawned this discussion, in that story thread, are VERY much appreciated. :x)

[Femina]

Willful ignorance is a form of a tolerance. A person is willingly ignoring the facts and continues to harm others. This person is fully aware there is a problem, and refuses to address it, thus being tolerant.

Agreed on your point overall, what I mean by this is as pertaining to the topic however,is that even willful ignorance usually takes a backseat to EYEWITNESS. Many a person who willfully ignores social circumstances that make them uncomfortable to think about, are often willing to step up and admit they were wrong (even if there's a caveat of 'Just this once') circumstantially.

The milder 'racism is dead' crowd (heck likely even some of the HARDCORE 'racism is dead' crowd) usually wont acknowledge that racism is a systemic problem, but will still acknowledge that there are INDIVIDUALS that may be racist, and will especially acknowledge this if they witness a racist attack the ire of their racism in front of them.

If a heroine is defeated, raped, unasked in this sorta 'public incident' in which we're discussing, this is very much a matter of individuals rather than populace, we can also assume there may be newsfeeds, dozens of eyewitnesses, cellphone footage... and more than enough to convince the mid crowds of willful ignorance to make an exception against that particular super villain since they've gotten the chance to 'see it with their own eyes' so to speak...

[bobcashman]

Interesting discussion. Personally, I love to see the heroine defeated, sometimes killed. For those who say it leaves no where to go I say this: This is all make believe. I can kill my heroine in one story. The next one she's back in another story and so on. This is make believe, for crying out loud, so WE, the writers, control the Universe. I mean, come on people...we're talking heroines with super powers but we can't suspend our disbelief for characters who are killed and come back in another story?

I like this genre because I got sick and tired of reading the same ending...villain loses, heroine wins, every time. Personally, I like to see stories (and there are dammed few) where when a heroine loses, etc., she is haunted by the loss or rape or whatever. Adds a layer of interest and real life to the story. Just my opinion.

[GeekyPornCritic]

Interesting discussion. Personally, I love to see the heroine defeated, sometimes killed. For those who say it leaves no where to go I say this: This is all make believe. I can kill my heroine in one story. The next one she's back in another story and so on. This is make believe, for crying out loud, so WE, the writers, control the Universe. I mean, come on people...we're talking heroines with super powers but we can't suspend our disbelief for characters who are killed and come back in another story?

I like this genre because I got sick and tired of reading the same ending...villain loses, heroine wins, every time. Personally, I like to see stories (and there are dammed few) where when a heroine loses, etc., she is haunted by the loss or rape or whatever. Adds a layer of interest and real life to the story. Just my opinion.

I agree these stories are pure fantasies. However, fantasy worlds need to set their own rules. A dead character who returns without an explanation is poor writing. Special events and powers need explanations without contradictions to previous rules.

Dragon Ball Z does it better than everyone, but someone people hates how DBZ does it. If a character is killed, then the other good guys can use the Dragon Balls to revive their comrade. It is an easy and established rule to follow.

[DrDominator9]

I agree these stories are pure fantasies. However, fantasy worlds need to set their own rules. A dead character who returns without an explanation is poor writing. Special events and powers need explanations without contradictions to previous rules.

If a writer concludes one story about a character and starts a completely new one, there's no problem in rebooting that character in a completely new way, even with new rules if they want. It's not a case of bad writing.

Those rules are allowed to come to a screeching halt from story to story. Most times they don't but one can't even count the number of reboots there are by the same writer of Supergirl, Wonder Woman, Batgirl and other heroine stories. If you're talking a continuous series, of course there have to be repercussions if a heroine dies. But as a writer who ends one story and starts another, there's no limitations on how he can handle that character in his latest iteration of him or her.

[batgirl1969]

I think this is why I love buzzsaw peril so much...it almost always ends up badly, there was a series I used to love and go back to all the time where Catwoman captured Batgirl, strapped her to the buzzsaw and at the end she walked out with a sawn in 2 batgirl costume...it was so hot to me and still is...Catwoman held her head down so lovingly and got to enjoy her prize....purrrrrfect!!

[bobcashman]

I agree these stories are pure fantasies. However, fantasy worlds need to set their own rules. A dead character who returns without an explanation is poor writing. Special events and powers need explanations without contradictions to previous rules.

Dragon Ball Z does it better than everyone, but someone people hates how DBZ does it. If a character is killed, then the other good guys can use the Dragon Balls to revive their comrade. It is an easy and established rule to follow.

We'll just have to disagree. Poor writing? No, just fantasy. By your explanation what happens if one writer kills off Batgirl and another writer writes a new story? Readers are going to say, what, that Batgirl died in that other writer's story? It's all make believe. And for my money different stories with the same character offering different endings, new peril is good.

[beautyslayer]

I love realism in my stories. This is a fantasy genre, so it doesn't have to be realistic, and the author can design the moral structure of their fantasy world anyway they want. But for the sake of realism, since that is the angle this thread is taking, it would depend on the resilience of the heroine- how much shame and humiliation can she handle before breaking down? You can break your superheroine, but then what good is she? Might as well kill her off at that point. But, if a heroine is not completely broken by her humiliating defeat, than any character rightfully called a "superheroine" would be able to gain her confidence back and face whatever backlashed she received from the public. A real superheroine wouldn't care if her image was tarnished, or if people didn't like her. That wouldn't stop her. Superheroines are tough; it would be very difficult to break one, and to make that convincing on the page. Demasking a superheroine or revealing her identity would just create some logistical challenges for her; it wouldn't end her career. Even a depowered superheroine might find some way to recover her powers. Only some seriously twisted, novel length torture sequence could really bring about the scenario we are discussing, in my opinion. (there are some good examples on this site!)