Living in the shadow of the corona virus

Where derailed topics go to ....live?
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Abductorenmadrid
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Dazzle1 wrote:
4 years ago
For those of you who are healthy.

Think about giving blood
I would love to do that, however my Spanish hosts have one particular criteria that excludes almost all their British born residents. If you have lived in the UK for a modest amount of time you are not allowed to give blood, in fear of passing on "Mad Cow Disease". It sucks, I know, but them's the rulez! :(
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TIEnTEEZ
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Dazzle1 wrote:
4 years ago
Although we need to take precautions, we can not panic as much of the media wants us to do.
My mom has COPD and Lymphoma. She gets COVID, she dies, simple as that. So I cannot afford to take any chances. I'm holed up at home and not leaving the house unless I absolutely have to. :)

But kudos to you. :)
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ksire_99
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How can you panic if you are doing social distancing?

It really is an oxymoron.
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TIEnTEEZ wrote:
4 years ago
Dazzle1 wrote:
4 years ago
Although we need to take precautions, we can not panic as much of the media wants us to do.
My mom has COPD and Lymphoma. She gets COVID, she dies, simple as that. So I cannot afford to take any chances. I'm holed up at home and not leaving the house unless I absolutely have to. :)

But kudos to you. :)
My future ex-wife has a serious lung issue. and it is scary as hell. She also has to take care of her very eldery parents that are no longer able of taking care of themselves. I will disagree, that if my future ex gets the Bat Flu she dies...that is an absolute that is not true.
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TIEnTEEZ wrote:
4 years ago
Dazzle1 wrote:
4 years ago
Although we need to take precautions, we can not panic as much of the media wants us to do.
My mom has COPD and Lymphoma. She gets COVID, she dies, simple as that. So I cannot afford to take any chances. I'm holed up at home and not leaving the house unless I absolutely have to. :)

But kudos to you. :)
Hope your mom is safe.

The comment about giving blood were those of us , in the not at risk pool.

My point about not over panic, were the people emptied out the stores and those in the media are saying this is the end of the world.

We will get through this!
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Mainstream media aren't saying this is the end of the world, at least not in the US. Try not to use hyperbole when complaining about hyperbolic reactions.
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A video for today

bushwackerbob
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My state of Massachusetts has been certainly been adversely affected by this virus, so when I read this story, it really bugged me. There was a Baptist church in my neck of the woods which held services this past Sunday and reports are that it had more than 50 people. WHAT THE HELL FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ARE THESE PEOPLE THINKING? They had an interview with the pastor of the church and he justified it with this explanation "People go to the supermarket to feed their bodies, why should not they go to church to feed their souls". I was raised Catholic and I obviously respect others rights to worship their God and brand of religion in any fashion they like but this is absolutely irresponsible and ridiculous. One of the tenets for many of these religions is not to be selfish, but to be selfless and kind, and to think of others, goodwill to men, to consider other people as well as ourselves. I hardly think it is goodwill to unwittingly potentially spread a possibly lethal virus to other unsuspecting individuals. I am by no means a biblical scholar, but that does not seem very Christian to me. When I first read about that pastor down in Florida being arrested about a month ago, I thought it was a little over the top, and now I think they are potentially helping to perpetuate this terrible virus, creating other opportunities for this terrible virus to spread which is the very opposite of what we should be doing right now.
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The observation of the restrictions Stateside have been so lax in some parts I think it's almost inevitable that you will see a second spike of infections, and if not then at the least it will take you guys a lot longer to come out the other side.
It's just tragic.
And for the love of God no one try injecting disinfectant
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bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
My state of Massachusetts has been certainly been adversely affected by this virus, so when I read this story, it really bugged me. There was a Baptist church in my neck of the woods which held services this past Sunday and reports are that it had more than 50 people. WHAT THE HELL FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ARE THESE PEOPLE THINKING? They had an interview with the pastor of the church and he justified it with this explanation "People go to the supermarket to feed their bodies, why should not they go to church to feed their souls". I was raised Catholic and I obviously respect others rights to worship their God and brand of religion in any fashion they like but this is absolutely irresponsible and ridiculous. One of the tenets for many of these religions is not to be selfish, but to be selfless and kind, and to think of others, goodwill to men, to consider other people as well as ourselves. I hardly think it is goodwill to unwittingly potentially spread a possibly lethal virus to other unsuspecting individuals. I am by no means a biblical scholar, but that does not seem very Christian to me. When I first read about that pastor down in Florida being arrested about a month ago, I thought it was a little over the top, and now I think they are potentially helping to perpetuate this terrible virus, creating other opportunities for this terrible virus to spread which is the very opposite of what we should be doing right now.
I also live in Mass, but I think Baker is wrong in extending the shutdown. Private business people especially the self employed like me are the ones suffering economicly and we are unable to get the benefits everyone else is. We are responsible enough to go to phase 1 and let regular business open.

The people making the decisions are not giving up their paychecks or pensions. Take away their income and perks and give it to the self employed for the next several months.
Bert

Murica. 4% of the world's population, 33% of the covid-19 cases. And Dazzle wants things opened up right now. I would not want to be a healthcare worker in the U.S. during this crisis, putting their lives at risk treating people infected through their own willful ignorance.
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Bert wrote:
3 years ago
Murica. 4% of the world's population, 33% of the covid-19 cases. And Dazzle wants things opened up right now. I would not want to be a healthcare worker in the U.S. during this crisis, putting their lives at risk treating people infected through their own willful ignorance.
Its not ignorance

It is taking a measured response

It is fine for some people to sit at home, others of us are losing our livilihoods

How is that so hard to understand?

I would not want to be following the WHO guidlelines or liberal politicians who are using this for politics,

We can social distance and work
Bert you can stay home, I want to work!
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tallyho
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Better to lose your livelihood than your life.

Opening up when you clearly don't have it undercontrol in the first place is just asking for it to be prolonged
That will mean you stutter along and take much longer to recover.

Can I just ask people not to make personal attacks on other forum members. Disagree with them by all means, but keep it civil and avoid disparaging judgements when we all have different personal circumstances that the rest of us don't necessarily know about.
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tallyho wrote:
3 years ago
Better to lose your livelihood than your life.

Opening up when you clearly don't have it undercontrol in the first place is just asking for it to be prolonged
That will mean you stutter along and take much longer to recover.

Can I just ask people not to make personal attacks on other forum members. Disagree with them by all means, but keep it civil and avoid disparaging judgements when we all have different personal circumstances that the rest of us don't necessarily know about.
I will not engage in the person attacks, but most business people think we can go to phase 1.
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Did you not get the stimulus check ? It's 1200$ a month, no ?
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helstar wrote:
3 years ago
Did you not get the stimulus check ? It's 1200$ a month, no ?
Pretty sure it's just a one-time thing, not per month. Although, it's possible there will be more stimulus coming.
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Regarding opening up the economy... here's a piece I recently wrote that examines the issues.
If it's too long and you don't want to read the whole thing, I will sum it up here: "These protesters are idiots".
Now here's the whole thing...


There are some people who feel that it would be better to simply ignore all of the experts and just open up the economy, because the damage to the economy will be worse than the virus.

On the other side I am seeing a lot of people arguing that prioritizing the economy over human lives is morally wrong and isn't worth discussing.

It absolutely IS worth discussing. The economy is important. If we enter a recession or a depression, people are going to die for all sorts of reasons unrelated to the virus. And it may be a LOT of people. There is ample evidence that just the isolation of social distancing will cause an increase in the suicide rate, domestic violence, and that the resulting loneliness will cause a host of health problems. And that doesn't even begin to cover the deaths that will be caused by the resulting poverty and unemployment and the likely rise in crime.

IF this was a situation where we had two options:

A) One of which hurts the economy and saves lives.
B) Another of which hurts the economy less and costs more lives.

Then this would be worth talking about. Because we might want to discuss which option would save more lives in the long run.

Where this argument falls down, of course, is that those are NOT the choices we currently have. Opening up the economy and giving up on social distancing will NOT help the economy. Every expert, every piece of evidence we have (see what's happening in Italy and Iran), every bit of common sense and modelling we have indicates that it will make things a million times worse and could, in fact, literally be the end of civilization as we know it.

There is no person anywhere in the world who has presented ANY kind of rational, plausible argument that suggests that the economy would be better off if you let a deadly virus run rampant and do nothing to stop it. If you believe that it WOULD somehow be better, you haven't got a leg to stand on, and quite frankly, you are are a danger to yourself and others and should probably be locked up.

Our options are:

A) Keep doing social distancing and accept the damage it will do in order to flatten the curve.
B) Don't do it, just ignore the problem. let everyone get sick all at once, crash the health care system and watch while the world comes to an end.

There's no moral or financial argument here. There simply is no choice.
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I disagree opening up the economy will make life better.

i can only speak for my industry.

We are restricted by the non essential business order, the economy would improve.

But people are reaching their limit.

It is time to open up and use some common sense

This virus has flattened out, and we should be listening to the President health advisors not people like the Gov of blue states who are trying to fill their pension obligated economies.
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I disagree that we ought to start opening up right now and I think at this moment we ought to continue the stay at home orders and social distancing. I do think however, whether it be a month, two months, whatever, psychologically we need to see a light at the end of the tunnel of this thing. Yes, nobody knows what the outlook on this thing is going to look like in a month or two and it might not be a good idea to set hard target dates but I think it would help if we let people know what a slow phased opening up looks like, what type of businesses could open up, what kind of social gatherings will be allowed, and what numbers, and in general what this reopening will look like. I really like how Governor Cuomo of NY has handled this thing. I don't believe he is actually giving a time table, but he is already talking about opening up upstate NY, as NYC has obviously been slammed really hard during this pandemic while other parts of the state have been less affected and seem to have a better chance of opening up sooner. I like that Cuomo seems to be giving a roadmap to what factors will be involved in a reopening. I detect a quiet confidence, an inner strength in Governor Cuomo, a determination to protect his fellow New Yorkers but at the same time a determination to beat this thing and come out on the other side. I sincerely wish we had Dem Governor Cuomo handling this thing in Massachusetts rather than the idiot Rep Governor Baker who projects none of that determination and strength, and only projects fear and uncertainty which is why I don't have confidence that my state will open up at the appropriate time whenever that is. The simple fact of the matter is that we are all scared of this thing, scared we will contract it, scared our loved ones will get it, scared for our elderly and some of our most vulnerable and at risk in our society. We are also scared that this whole economic system will come crashing down, we lose our jobs, and lose the ability to support ourselves financially, have money for food, housing, and expenses. That is also a real fear if we don't get back to work sometime in the near future, whatever that means. I believe our politicians are scared, and uncertain how to handle this thing as well, they don't want to open up too soon and become responsible for a big second outbreak of this virus, but at the same time I imagine they also see how fragile our economy really is and don't want to see it come crashing down and create a second catastrophic event on top of this crisis. It's easier for me, I am designated an essential employee, this pandemic has not affected me so far, but there are a lot of people affected, both in contracting this virus, and also people suffering economically and wondering when this nightmare is going to truly end. Here's hoping our elected officials, regardless of party affiliation are able to make the right and responsible decisions regarding when to reopen for the health and economic welfare of our country.
Bert

Well said, BWB.
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Notice the rules don't apply to

bill Deblasio, Lori Lightfoot, chris Cuomo etc.
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TIEnTEEZ wrote:
3 years ago
Regarding opening up the economy... here's a piece I recently wrote that examines the issues.
If it's too long and you don't want to read the whole thing, I will sum it up here: "These protesters are idiots".
Now here's the whole thing...


There are some people who feel that it would be better to simply ignore all of the experts and just open up the economy, because the damage to the economy will be worse than the virus.

On the other side I am seeing a lot of people arguing that prioritizing the economy over human lives is morally wrong and isn't worth discussing.

It absolutely IS worth discussing. The economy is important. If we enter a recession or a depression, people are going to die for all sorts of reasons unrelated to the virus. And it may be a LOT of people. There is ample evidence that just the isolation of social distancing will cause an increase in the suicide rate, domestic violence, and that the resulting loneliness will cause a host of health problems. And that doesn't even begin to cover the deaths that will be caused by the resulting poverty and unemployment and the likely rise in crime.

IF this was a situation where we had two options:

A) One of which hurts the economy and saves lives.
B) Another of which hurts the economy less and costs more lives.

Then this would be worth talking about. Because we might want to discuss which option would save more lives in the long run.

Where this argument falls down, of course, is that those are NOT the choices we currently have. Opening up the economy and giving up on social distancing will NOT help the economy. Every expert, every piece of evidence we have (see what's happening in Italy and Iran), every bit of common sense and modelling we have indicates that it will make things a million times worse and could, in fact, literally be the end of civilization as we know it.

There is no person anywhere in the world who has presented ANY kind of rational, plausible argument that suggests that the economy would be better off if you let a deadly virus run rampant and do nothing to stop it. If you believe that it WOULD somehow be better, you haven't got a leg to stand on, and quite frankly, you are are a danger to yourself and others and should probably be locked up.

Our options are:

A) Keep doing social distancing and accept the damage it will do in order to flatten the curve.
B) Don't do it, just ignore the problem. let everyone get sick all at once, crash the health care system and watch while the world comes to an end.

There's no moral or financial argument here. There simply is no choice.
Give you another example

Maine has only 33 cases almost all in southern ME. Yes the Gov there has closed the entire state down

No health or moral reason to do it
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Dazzle1 wrote:
3 years ago

Give you another example

Maine has only 33 cases almost all in southern ME. Yes the Gov there has closed the entire state down

No health or moral reason to do it
I agree Dazzle. Not only should the economy reopen but the people who forced closures should be charged and imprisoned. The amount of economic damage is many times worse than the outcome of corona. Corona isn't magical or different. The death rate is actually quite low. H1N1 had around 280k-400k deaths depending on the source. This isn't a few pizza places or coffee shops closed. 30 mil people added to the unemployment roles. Massive debt. Suicide rates went up. Drug over dose went up. Elderly now to be forced out into the streets because their retirements are evaporated. And the US won't feel the brunt of this. The rest of the world will.

https://www.globalvillagespace.com/grea ... to-chiefs/
https://www.france24.com/en/20200422-un ... atastrophe

These are NOT due to corona but due to the idiots who shut down economies.

And lets look at this "if it saves one life" claim. 50k people a year die in the US from auto accidents. Do we reduce the speed to 5mph or ban all cars? No. Or the huge elephant in the room. climate change will kill MILLIONS and will cause the next "extinction level event". That's ORDERS of magnitude worse. Do we shut down the economy? Ban cars? Stop all industry? Nope, just a tax and some solar panel subsidies.

This amount of economic damage will cause far more deaths, poverty and destruction than anything the virus would do.
Bert

Over the last ten years, an average of less than 35,000 Americans per year have died in auto accidents. More importantly, deaths per mile driven have fallen steadily, from 5 deaths per 10 million miles driven in the 60's, to about 1 death per 10 million miles driven now. That's a fivefold decrease in deaths, and it's mostly attributable to government regulation. Seatbelt laws, crush zones in vehicles, etc.

As for climate change, massive, if halting, efforts are underway to deal with that problem. Alternative energy is being developed at a rate that was not thought possible even ten years ago. Obviously, problems that require action over decades can be difficult to handle politically due to the short time-frames of elected governments, but we are working on it.

The truth is, neither of the comparisons you offered have anything to do with a pandemic outbreak. Governments around the world significantly closed down their economies because a new, deadly virus was spreading uncontrollably around the globe. In Spain, Italy, France, the U.K., the death rate from covid-19 is above 10%. 70,000 Americans have died from Covid-19 in two months. Remember, that's 70,000 deaths even though social distancing and shutdowns were enacted, both to save lives and prevent the medical system for being overrun.

People who are complaining now that the shutdowns were wrong are doing it from the perspective of having enjoyed the benefits of the shutdowns. If no action had been taken, hundreds of thousands of Americans would be dead now and hospitals around the country would be totally overrun. When faced with the choice of being poorer or being dead, most people pick poorer.

Healthcare professionals on the front lines of the fight against Covid-19 are deeply insulted by the calls to open up before it's safe to do so. They have put their lives at risk every day and watched many patients die, afraid and alone. It disrespects their heroic efforts to open up prematurely and generate another surge of patients.
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Bert wrote:
3 years ago
Over the last ten years, an average of less than 35,000 Americans per year have died in auto accidents. More importantly, deaths per mile driven have fallen steadily, from 5 deaths per 10 million miles driven in the 60's, to about 1 death per 10 million miles driven now. That's a fivefold decrease in deaths, and it's mostly attributable to government regulation. Seatbelt laws, crush zones in vehicles, etc.

As for climate change, massive, if halting, efforts are underway to deal with that problem. Alternative energy is being developed at a rate that was not thought possible even ten years ago. Obviously, problems that require action over decades can be difficult to handle politically due to the short time-frames of elected governments, but we are working on it.

The truth is, neither of the comparisons you offered have anything to do with a pandemic outbreak. Governments around the world significantly closed down their economies because a new, deadly virus was spreading uncontrollably around the globe. In Spain, Italy, France, the U.K., the death rate from covid-19 is above 10%. 70,000 Americans have died from Covid-19 in two months. Remember, that's 70,000 deaths even though social distancing and shutdowns were enacted, both to save lives and prevent the medical system for being overrun.

People who are complaining now that the shutdowns were wrong are doing it from the perspective of having enjoyed the benefits of the shutdowns. If no action had been taken, hundreds of thousands of Americans would be dead now and hospitals around the country would be totally overrun. When faced with the choice of being poorer or being dead, most people pick poorer.

Healthcare professionals on the front lines of the fight against Covid-19 are deeply insulted by the calls to open up before it's safe to do so. They have put their lives at risk every day and watched many patients die, afraid and alone. It disrespects their heroic efforts to open up prematurely and generate another surge of patients.
We are two generations from being carbon free energy source. Climate change is not a major issue or a problem.


Some healthcare officials complain but most do not.

the economy is also important and should be opened up with responsbly. the business community should be trusted as we are more ethical and intelligent than legislators big city mayors

We have earned the right to decide
Bert

Dazzle1 wrote:
3 years ago
Some healthcare officials complain but most do not.

the economy is also important and should be opened up with responsbly. the business community should be trusted as we are more ethical and intelligent than legislators big city mayors

We have earned the right to decide
I didn't say health care officials, I said front line workers. I didn't say they complained, I said they were insulted.

I didn't say the economy wasn't important, I said saving hundreds of thousands of lives and not crushing the medical system was more important.

Blanket statements like "the business community...are more ethical and intelligent than legislators big city mayors" are just silly. Businesses exist to make money. Government exists to serve and represent the people.
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Bert wrote:
3 years ago
Dazzle1 wrote:
3 years ago
Some healthcare officials complain but most do not.

the economy is also important and should be opened up with responsbly. the business community should be trusted as we are more ethical and intelligent than legislators big city mayors

We have earned the right to decide
I didn't say health care officials, I said front line workers. I didn't say they complained, I said they were insulted.

I didn't say the economy wasn't important, I said saving hundreds of thousands of lives and not crushing the medical system was more important.

Blanket statements like "the business community...are more ethical and intelligent than legislators big city mayors" are just silly. Businesses exist to make money. Government exists to serve and represent the people.
But that is not what many big city Mayors and Congresspeople do

Business benefit everybody and we are going to come up with the solutions. Nobody in the govt is making any sacrfices unless they are actually in life saving areas. Pelsoi, DeBlasio and Lightfood have made no sacrfices and all have broken the rules.
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"We are going to come up with solutions" is not the same as having solutions. And we have been using the only solution that was effective by the time this virus got going... social distancing. I honestly do understand that people have to make a living or else end up on the street, bankrupt, possible starving. Too many are faced with impossible choices. But it's one thing to discuss freedom for yourself and another thing to discuss freedom that ends up killing others by your behavior. Not many good answers. But when I see pictures of people sitting so closely together in parks and on beaches with the nice weather this weekend, the stupidity of that is pretty undeniable. You can enjoy the outdoors and still keep social distancing.
Follow this link to descriptions of my stories and easy links to them:

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Bert

Dazzle1 wrote:
3 years ago
But that is not what many big city Mayors and Congresspeople do

Business benefit everybody and we are going to come up with the solutions. Nobody in the govt is making any sacrfices unless they are actually in life saving areas. Pelsoi, DeBlasio and Lightfood have made no sacrfices and all have broken the rules.
Do you really want to get into a contest about whether business or government are more concerned with the lives of citizens? Hotel chains, fast food giants and other publicly traded companies gobbled up much of the loans that were intended for small businesses. Businessmen profited from outrageous bidding wars for medical equipment, forcing states and cities to pay exorbitant sums. Big business has exerted pressure on the federal government to open up too quickly, putting countless lives at risk. Corporations are essentially required to act like psychopaths, ignoring the good of the people in search of profit.

These are exceptional times. The most basic responsibility of government is to protect the citizenry during times of crisis. The far right in America has been so successful in demonizing the very concept of government that now, facing an existential crisis, people are actually saying business, not government, should be calling the shots. Government has the resources, expertise, access to data, links to other nations, and most importantly the mandate to respond to this type of crisis.
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Yes the Federal Govt

Its obvious business people are better than the Bernie Sanders and AOC parasites of the world, which includes most Democrats in office
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Can we get back to stories about what it's like in the specific areas in which we live. How common people on the street are behaving? Interesting news that hasn't made the national spotlight, perhaps? Stuff that, you know, helps bring us together as a community?
Follow this link to descriptions of my stories and easy links to them:

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Over here they have been reporting Boris Johnsons new baby as if its some wonderful news that will unite the nation
No one mentions the other 5 kids by 4 mothers that he has abandoned and disowned.
Reportedly he doesn't know the names of most of them ffs.
Rumour is the press Corps can't ask about it or they'll be denied access to No10. They guy is a complete piece of shit who will say anything to please the room regardless of its veracity.
How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

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How strange are the ways of the gods ...........and how cruel.

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All the stupid people, where do they all come from?
All the stupid people, where do they all belong?
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Great editing in this
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Bert wrote:
3 years ago
Over the last ten years, an average of less than 35,000 Americans per year have died in auto accidents. More importantly, deaths per mile driven have fallen steadily, from 5 deaths per 10 million miles driven in the 60's, to about 1 death per 10 million miles driven now. That's a fivefold decrease in deaths, and it's mostly attributable to government regulation. Seatbelt laws, crush zones in vehicles, etc.
Great example that forcing a ban on cars was not a way to solve those deaths. Great example. Thanks.
As for climate change, massive, if halting, efforts are underway to deal with that problem. Alternative energy is being developed at a rate that was not thought possible even ten years ago. Obviously, problems that require action over decades can be difficult to handle politically due to the short time-frames of elected governments, but we are working on it.
massive? like what? Stop all cars? Stop all planes? Evacuate all coastal cities? Not decades. I can probably produce a good dozen claims from credible sources this "bad stuff" will happen in the next 10 years. IPCC 2015 report defined the actions as "draconian". I can also easily quote so called credible sources that MILLIONS will die and this is an extinction level event. Ok where is the extinction level even response?

The response knob was cranked to 11 on corona. Its should be on 1000 for climate change. You don't put out a BBQ fire with 5 fire trucks and a forest fire with a bottle of seltzers. Special pleading is not an argument.

The truth is, neither of the comparisons you offered have anything to do with a pandemic outbreak. Governments around the world significantly closed down their economies because a new, deadly virus was spreading uncontrollably around the globe. In Spain, Italy, France, the U.K., the death rate from covid-19 is above 10%. 70,000 Americans have died from Covid-19 in two months. Remember, that's 70,000 deaths even though social distancing and shutdowns were enacted, both to save lives and prevent the medical system for being overrun.
H1N1 killed over 280k-400k people (depending on source). We did NOT shut down economies for that. 2016 and 2017 were horrible flu seasons. We did not shut down the economy. The virus was not "deadly" to the vast majority of the population, only immune compromised people. And I'll go back to the auto fatalities for "if it saves one life". You're special pleading. There is not one special magical difference between corona and any other flu season. In fact covid is 50% of all flu viruses.

"both to save lives" So would forcing all speed limits to 5mph. Don't you want to save lives? Good intentions != good actions.
People who are complaining now that the shutdowns were wrong are doing it from the perspective of having enjoyed the benefits of the shutdowns. If no action had been taken, hundreds of thousands of Americans would be dead now and hospitals around the country would be totally overrun. When faced with the choice of being poorer or being dead, most people pick poorer.
No I complained before the shut downs when they started and NO I did not benefit. NOBODY BENEFITED. The economic damage far outweighs the so called savings of lives. The social distance just prolonged the herd immunity. We destroyed so many lives. Every job lost is a destroyed life. Suicides up. Homeless up. Bankruptcy up. This shut down is literally using a shot gun to kill a fly. And the US will feel little compared to 3rd world countries that rely on charity. 10s of thousands more will die of starvation and exposure and lack of medicine.

You can't just throw the switch on the economy and flip it back on. Plus we are now facing a $30 trillion dollar national debt. WHO is going to pay that? HOW?! And we NEVER did this for swine flue, bird flu, zika, h1n1, all the other bad flu seasons. Covid isn't anywhere close to being significantly different enough.
" It disrespects their heroic efforts to open up prematurely and generate another surge of patients."
Hospitals are closing. People are being let go. Lots of hospitals sit empty. Plus it pushed out patients who had other diseases. The curve is already flattened.

What job do you work where you're so insulated that your savings, retirement, job prospects, family friends etc are not effected by this massive economic damage?
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Bert wrote:
3 years ago
Do you really want to get into a contest about whether business or government are more concerned with the lives of citizens? Hotel chains, fast food giants and other publicly traded companies gobbled up much of the loans that were intended for small businesses. Businessmen profited from outrageous bidding wars for medical equipment, forcing states and cities to pay exorbitant sums. Big business has exerted pressure on the federal government to open up too quickly, putting countless lives at risk. Corporations are essentially required to act like psychopaths, ignoring the good of the people in search of profit.

These are exceptional times. The most basic responsibility of government is to protect the citizenry during times of crisis. The far right in America has been so successful in demonizing the very concept of government that now, facing an existential crisis, people are actually saying business, not government, should be calling the shots. Government has the resources, expertise, access to data, links to other nations, and most importantly the mandate to respond to this type of crisis.
Hobbes's paradox - if humans are inherently evil then any government you create will be composed of inherently evil people. There is no pool of altruistic people.
Bert

Just wait a month. You'll see.
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tallyho
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Fema based projections are for 3000 deaths a day by end of May. Double what they were predicting. With 200, 000 infections a day rather than the 25000 a day currently. Other quarters are saying 138000 dead by August. Given you got 70000+ deaths at the moment I fear that's on the low side, tragically.
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I think in every state, province, country, whatever, that there are different numbers and stats, so what might be a good solution in terms of reopening our states and countries have to be different as well. In the U.S, my state of MA, which admittedly has been hit harder than other areas of the country, we I believe are one of three states remaining that does not allow golfing at local clubs. I read today that the average age of the victims of this pandemic in my state is 82 and that 94% of the deaths in my state are people that had pre-existing conditions. The numbers continue to trend down in my state and I think my governor ought to start the ball rolling by setting the stage by planning reopening my state in June if these downward trends continue, but every time my governor interrupts my stories in the afternoon at 2 PM for a press conference, all I see is fear and uncertainty in his face, manner, and words, and I get the impression that his uncertainty and indecision on this thing will mean we will not open up in a timely manner and will be behind many other states in terms of opening up for business again, almost as if we will be unwilling hostages under the power of a limp dick governor who is afraid of getting blamed for a second wave of deaths that will inevitably occur no matter when we return to a degree of normalcy. I think we have put our country on hold for long enough and the unemployment numbers are going through the roof here and we need to prepare to get people back to work soon because people are not just being affected health wise by this virus, but they are being affected economically as well. Right now I wish I lived in Georgia or West Virginia instead of this corrections facility called Massachusetts.
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bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
I think in every state, province, country, whatever, that there are different numbers and stats, so what might be a good solution in terms of reopening our states and countries have to be different as well. In the U.S, my state of MA, which admittedly has been hit harder than other areas of the country, we I believe are one of three states remaining that does not allow golfing at local clubs. I read today that the average age of the victims of this pandemic in my state is 82 and that 94% of the deaths in my state are people that had pre-existing conditions. The numbers continue to trend down in my state and I think my governor ought to start the ball rolling by setting the stage by planning reopening my state in June if these downward trends continue, but every time my governor interrupts my stories in the afternoon at 2 PM for a press conference, all I see is fear and uncertainty in his face, manner, and words, and I get the impression that his uncertainty and indecision on this thing will mean we will not open up in a timely manner and will be behind many other states in terms of opening up for business again, almost as if we will be unwilling hostages under the power of a limp dick governor who is afraid of getting blamed for a second wave of deaths that will inevitably occur no matter when we return to a degree of normalcy. I think we have put our country on hold for long enough and the unemployment numbers are going through the roof here and we need to prepare to get people back to work soon because people are not just being affected health wise by this virus, but they are being affected economically as well. Right now I wish I lived in Georgia or West Virginia instead of this corrections facility called Massachusetts.
Or Florida

The fact is we could wear masks and open non essential business

Baker and the Mayors in Mass plus the legislature are not sacrificing, we are.
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I have a stupid question. It was a nice day today (we might get snow on Saturday up here believe it or not) and I decided to walk to my bank (drive thru service only) instead of drive, and I was wearing a mask in my travels today. In my walk to and from the bank I saw people outside here and there, about 10 to 15 people in total and none of them were wearing masks. Is this the sort of thing where masks are not needed or required for usage outdoors or are we not required to wear them out of doors as well. I was under the impression that the mask thing was for indoors and outdoors use. We are not talking about a densely populated area or park populated with people, just the typical streets of a medium sized city with not much foot traffic going on. I felt kind of stupid being the only one wearing a mask in my travels, but perhaps it is not required outdoors? I would like to know the answer to this question, so at least if I look like an idiot out there, the only one wearing a mask, at least I will do so with the knowledge that I am complying with the law unlike everybody else.
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bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
I have a stupid question. It was a nice day today (we might get snow on Saturday up here believe it or not) and I decided to walk to my bank (drive thru service only) instead of drive, and I was wearing a mask in my travels today. In my walk to and from the bank I saw people outside here and there, about 10 to 15 people in total and none of them were wearing masks. Is this the sort of thing where masks are not needed or required for usage outdoors or are we not required to wear them out of doors as well. I was under the impression that the mask thing was for indoors and outdoors use. We are not talking about a densely populated area or park populated with people, just the typical streets of a medium sized city with not much foot traffic going on. I felt kind of stupid being the only one wearing a mask in my travels, but perhaps it is not required outdoors? I would like to know the answer to this question, so at least if I look like an idiot out there, the only one wearing a mask, at least I will do so with the knowledge that I am complying with the law unlike everybody else.
AS I understand it, we are suppose to wear masks outdoor in public as well. It is required as on May 6th.

I don't like wearing a mask but do so. Thats why I want phase 1 started so I can get to work. Despite the promises if you are self employed in Mass and are effected by Covid 19 restrictions you won't get unemployment
Bert

I can't speak to the legalities of mask use in the U.S., which probably varies by state. As for your safety, provided you can maintain six feet of distancing most of the time, you have essentially no chance of contracting covid-19 outdoors by inhaling the virus from an infected person. The much greater risk when out and about is touching a surface, like the keypad of an automated teller, getting virus on your fingers, then rubbing your eye or nose or mouth. It's hard and takes practice and discipline, but try to not ever touch eyes, nose or mouth unless you've just washed your hands.
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Bert:

Thought you also lived in Massachusetts when you mentioned snow
Bert

When did I mention snow?
Dazzle1
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Bert wrote:
3 years ago
When did I mention snow?
Sorry my fault
Damselbinder

Dazzle1 wrote:
3 years ago
tallyho wrote:
3 years ago
Better to lose your livelihood than your life.

Opening up when you clearly don't have it undercontrol in the first place is just asking for it to be prolonged
That will mean you stutter along and take much longer to recover.

Can I just ask people not to make personal attacks on other forum members. Disagree with them by all means, but keep it civil and avoid disparaging judgements when we all have different personal circumstances that the rest of us don't necessarily know about.
I will not engage in the person attacks, but most business people think we can go to phase 1.
"Most business people" have no relevant expertise, and have a vested interest (however forgivably) in early openings for the sake of their livelihoods. Medical professionals, specifically experts on infectious disease, are the only ones to whom any attention should be paid (and, I suppose, economists who could say at what point the economy would implode to such a disastrous extent that no-one would be producing anything and the mechanisms of the state would collapse). The opposite end of that, of course, is that the self-employed should be much, much, MUCH better supported than they are being. I quite understand that, in the absence of such support, many people would be pretty desperate to reopen. But that doesn't mean that reopenings wouldn't be injurious to public health.
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tallyho
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It's tragic reading through this thread. In the truest sense of the word.

Sadly the predictions at the start of May of 138000 US dead by August was an underestimate. Clearly the ill tidings about reopening too soon seem to have come to pass.

They announced some encouraging progress yesterday in the UK in the pursuit of a possible cure. Let's hope it bares fruit. Uk leadership in this crisis has been appalling.

I passed 400-500 people today only myself and one other person had a mask on. Doesn't bode well.
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My president today said that it was patriotic to wear masks. Why is the dummy only saying this NOW! He is a little late to the party on that score, which sadly has been par for the course for him in regards to this pandemic. I just do not understand the thought process behind the reluctance and downright refusal to wear masks, a stupid thought process that seems to be shared by a great many people young and old across party and racial lines, and yes, I did notice those idiots during the BLM protests whom did not wear masks while they gathered in droves ignoring the six feet rule. Yes, I am aware that this pandemic is far from a death sentence for the young and healthy, plus those that do not have existing health issues that COVID-19 would compromise their health, but if there is even a 1 to 2% chance that wearing a mask will prevent someone from infecting another person, isn't that 1 to 2 % chance worth it to prevent you from infecting another human being? What happened to showing goodwill to our fellow human beings? Somehow I think that refusing to wear a mask is not in keeping with that ideal. I really don't give a crap if someone feels uncomfortable or feels that it is "uncool" to wear a mask, that if it can even in some small way contribute to our planet eradicating this thing, then why the hell not do it?
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