The Future of White Ethinic Oriented Fiction in a Rapidly Wide Spreading MultiModal Reflection Sorting Environment

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FallOutDweller
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The Ultimate Lists of Perfectly Fit Groups of Superheroes Never Meant to Fail In Ratings or The Box Office

or as the space in the title didn't allow me to say :

"A Celebration of White Washing Aiming for a Shrinking Target Audience !"

Lists first, Analysis later and further discussions. All are groups of five characters, all characters related to magic, space, underwater setting and otherwise has been removed for the sake of a budget keep it tight, low and restrained so let me explains who goes with who.

Starting with :

The Team America / Starman, Star Spangled Kid, Stargirl, Miss America and Liberty Belle; stories rated PG

The Young Justice / Superboy, Robin, Wondergirl, Kid Flash (Bart Allen) and Arrowette (Cissy King); stories Rated PG

The Green Justice / Martian Manhunter, Beast Boy, Miss Martian, Poison Ivy and Fire; stories probably Rated PG to PG-13

The Justice League / Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash (Barry Allen) and Green Arrow; stories Rated PG-13

The New Titans / Supergirl, Nightwing, Donna Troy, Flash (Wally West) and Arsenal (Roy Harper); stories Rated NC-17

The Outsiders / Geoforce, Red Hood, Ravager, Looker and Halo; stories Rated NC-17

Justice Society / Powergirl, Wildcat, Hyppolita, Flash (Jay Garrick) and Huntress; stories Rated R

The Night Justice / Dr Midnite, Sandman, Mr Terrific, Spectre and Hourman; stories Rated Light R

The Watchmen / Captain Atom, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Question and Black Canary; stories Rated Double R

The Feminist Justice / Maxima, Batwoman, Artemis, Jesse Quick and Big Barda; stories Rated Triple R if that exists

The Feminist Warriors / Mary Marvel, Catwoman, Circe, Cheetah and Tigress; Direct to DVD/Blue Ray Sales

The (Yet to be named, Justice Warriors ???) / Steel, Cyborg, Starfire, Black Lightning and Grace Choi; stories Rated ???

The (Another Yet to be named, any ideas ???) / Lady Shiva, Black Bat (Cassandra Caine), Katana, Plastic Man and Red Arrow (Connor Hawke); stories Rated ???

And for last

The Legion of Doom / Lex Luthor, Joker, Dr Psycho, Zoom and Grodd; Rated PG (blame the Monkey)

Analysis later on in "The Massive Scale Assault That Never Happen at The Box Office, Primetime TV or Saturday Morning Cartoons Ever Again",

or

To Be Continued.....
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for matter of target audience all African American, Latinos, Asians, Robots, Aliens and People with Furry Fetishes were removed from the researched data from an Universe of 55 male superheroes listed;

Superheroes with Capes :

- Superman, Captain Marvel, Captain Marvel Jr; 3

Superheroes with Capes & Mask :

- Robin, Green Lantern (Alan Scott); 2

Superheroes with Capes & Cowl :

- Batman, Mr Miracle, Hawk, Dr Fate; 4

Superheroes with no capes neither mask, hoods, hats or anything in between :

- Superboy, Aqualad, Elongated Man, (Green Lantern) Guy Gardner, Zatara, Jay Garrick, Uncle Sam; 7

Superheroes with Masks :

- (Green Lantern) Hal Jordan, Nightwing, Arsenal, Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner), Plastic Man; 5

Superheroes with Hoods :

- Green Arrow, Red Hood, Atom Smasher; 3

Superheroes with Cowls :

- Flash (Barry Allen), Flash (Wally West), Atom, Blue Beetle, Star Spangled Kid, Kid Flash (Bart Allen), Booster Gold, Geoforce; 8

The data shows a strong rejection of Capes, Hoods and Men's Tights as well a preference for Jumpsuits with Cowls or no cover for the head and face at all, the ladies and laddies apparently love to see some rubber muscle and a pretty face.

From an amount of 55 superheroes only 8 of them were African Americans and neither of them was the Human Torch or another member past, present or future associated with the Klu-Klux-Klan or Twenty Century Fox.

Three have a furry fetish of some sort, two were Cybernetic beings, two were Asians, one Native American, one Latino, two were involved in some radioactive incident of some sort, one was a Russian in a suit, one was the only real Green Alien on the list and the last one is a Vegetable.

Sorry guys if we feel the need to keep the budget for the make up department low but you are not the hottest sausages for the dogs.
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What are people supposed to respond to here? It seems to be a parody of political correctness, but I really can't see what point you're trying to make?
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what the actual fuck is this?

who freaks out like this?

On behalf of all europeans everywhere, I'm sorry, I'm really fucking sorry we sent our navies tear arsing around the globe and claimed a lot of shit that wasn't nailed down and then promptly just left a lot of panicky insecure people behind (and you know, USA you're really not doing yourself any favours here but even you guys aren't as bad as Australia)

but look, what's done is done and hey now everyone gets pizza, frankfurters, the croquembouche, waffles and deep fried mars bars. So guys, calm the fcuk down. Portly slightly put upon white guys are not going extinct.

rein it in

dial it back down from 11

chill
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Oh for the love of any fucking Gods, there is nothing racist about this posts when they are done for the interest of social commentary, parody and fair use.

I am not against diversity in comic books, movies, television and porn. Everybody knows how much we lack that yet.

I am just exposing how the fight against the lack of diversity will most probably not be done.
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FallOutDweller wrote:Oh for the love of any fucking Gods, there is nothing racist about this posts when they are done for the interest of social commentary, parody and fair use.
.
Bullshit. Social commentary can still be racist. So can parody work. And fair use is related to copyright law and not related to what you posted.
FallOutDweller wrote: I am not against diversity in comic books, movies, television and porn.
If this is true you have done a shit job making that clear, as your recent posts make is seem like you are VERY much against diversity in at least comics.
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In my defense, why do we have shirtless Green Arrow on tv but not a single scene of Will Smith kissing Charlize Theron on Hancock ?

I think everybody know where the real racism really is.

Now if I may going on with my parody of racism that only offends people who fear to laugh about just the idea of such casting, rooster ups and fashion designs might be even seriously consider, unless the moderation have something to say.
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Maybe you could consider posting in a more coherent manner?

As you're planning to continue your parody of one of the most sensitive and volatile subjects, clarity would be useful.

That's not to say you shouldn't use irony, but rather that you should only use it if the target audience for your humor (whoever that may be) isn't gong to assume you're a racist.
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FallOutDweller wrote:The Feminist Justice / Maxima, Batwoman, Artemis, Jesse Quick and Big Barda; stories Rated Triple R if that exists

The Feminist Warriors / Mary Marvel, Catwoman, Circe, Cheetah and Tigress; Direct to DVD/Blue Ray Sales
(Add your favorite most hated Movie/TV Exec here)..... are you insane ? People will never pay to see for a bunch of D-List female leads even if we made a porn with, now stop teasing them with things they might like and keep them pissed with something they will really pay to hate for a week or two. And thanks Max Byalistock for show us how to make money and fail miserably at the same time.

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FallOutDweller wrote:From an amount of 55 superheroes only 8 of them were African Americans and neither of them was the Human Torch or another member past, present or future associated with the Klu-Klux-Klan or Twenty Century Fox.

Three have a furry fetish of some sort, two were Cybernetic beings, two were Asians, one Native American, one Latino, two were involved in some radioactive incident of some sort, one was a Russian in a suit, one was the only real Green Alien on the list and the last one is a Vegetable.

Sorry guys if we feel the need to keep the budget for the make up department low but you are not the hottest sausages for the dogs.
Intermission,

Following this clues please enjoy yourselves and identify who are the allegedly 22 least favorite male superheroes in the DC New 52's Universe thanks to their ethnic origins and poor fashion sense. And let me remind you that in a list of 55 Superheroes only EIGHT are African Americans and even less are from other origins except for the Russian guy who are just a white dude in a poorly developed Iron Man suit villain.

Who are the underpaid 22 in the New 52 ?
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Yes but what was the POINT.
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ViridianIV wrote:Yes but what was the POINT.
There was no point other than to get a response. Remember, this is Wow Girl.
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ViridianIV wrote:Yes but what was the POINT.
The Point :

What is more appealing to you :

a)A group of all white folks and chicks in fancy costumes ?

or

b)A Politically Correct group of people formed with representatives of all groups, ethnicities, genders, social studies, religions and fashion senses aimed towards the lowest common denominator ever possible demographically speaking in order to gather the highest levels of success , rating and box office profits ?

And if you answer yes for "a" would you like to also watch an all African American, all Asian, all Alien, all Female, or all whatever group of superheroes aimed towards your specific niche ?
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I prefer interracial
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FallOutDweller wrote:
ViridianIV wrote:Yes but what was the POINT.
The Point :

What is more appealing to you :

a)A group of all white folks and chicks in fancy costumes ?

or

b)A Politically Correct group of people formed with representatives of all groups, ethnicities, genders, social studies, religions and fashion senses aimed towards the lowest common denominator ever possible demographically speaking in order to gather the highest levels of success , rating and box office profits ?

And if you answer yes for "a" would you like to also watch an all African American, all Asian, all Alien, all Female, or all whatever group of superheroes aimed towards your specific niche ?
Ah, your question is loaded. It presupposes that a diverse group would mainly appeal to the lowest common denominator.

When did you stop beating your wife?
(See what I did there?)
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meanwhile in 1890s Germany.... "Arrgh! watch out nations personified as ladies! Asians are gonna get rid of you!"

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Nice that 150 years later...... there's still the same panic

(not sure if Kaiser Wilhelm 2 counts as a social justice warrior though?)
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I'm still scratching my head at the notion that diversity appeals to the lowest common denominator.

As if all the dingbats are watching subtitled films at the Art House while the intelligentsia bask is the glory of Adam Sandler's latest cinematic triumph.
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I think it really boils down to are you allowed to get "excited" over characters and can producers aim for that or must any "excitement" be ruined in the name of "stopping exploitation".

This is a post modern approach to art and entertainment. Its not the art but the viewer who is judged. Like with the Spider Woman cover vs the exact same Spiderman cover pose. Both are in exactly the same pose. But why was one offensive and one not especially if men and women are equal. The post modern answer is the Spider Woman cover is evil because men would look at that and get sexually excited where as women probably wouldn't get sexually excited by the Spiderman cover.

This is a completely unrealistic and impossible set of standards to apply. To judge something wrong merely based on how someone interprets it is impossible to measure and wrought with arbitrary judgements and standards. So if I get sexually excited by birthday cakes we have to ban birthday cakes? Do we ban children if pedophiles get turned on by children? And why can some people get turned on and others not? Why can women have their "fun" shirts off scenes (Arrow) but men cannot have their fun "cleavage" scenes. Again impossible to measure. Impossible to enforce without cutting all the trees down to make them equal. And I'm sure we don't want comics where everyone is wearing potato sacks and covered in hoods.
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Heroine Addict wrote:Ah, your question is loaded. It presupposes that a diverse group would mainly appeal to the lowest common denominator.

When did you stop beating your wife?
(See what I did there?)
Ah Ha! The Game is a foot ! But you never expected I would answer :

"I never stop to beat my wife neither she stop to beat me ! In fact we live in a consensual BDSM relationship and your question remind me just in time that tonight we already schedule our Klingon Sex Relationship Conciliating Debate where we expect to make some sense from a few loose ends left behind on previous "physical arguments", contrary to past campaigns I am going forward for glorious hours of intense fight, critical care and little bruises. The safe word tonight is "Tom Brady" !

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Touché !
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lionbadger wrote:meanwhile in 1890s Germany.... "Arrgh! watch out nations personified as ladies! Asians are gonna get rid of you!"

Image

Nice that 150 years later...... there's still the same panic

(not sure if Kaiser Wilhelm 2 counts as a social justice warrior though?)
Not sure about the Kaiser with the Village People mustache, but the guy in your picture was definitely an angel wing earner.
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Meanwhile on the other side of the so called controversial bench, the female superheroes and the fashion choices that made them.

Superheroines with Capes (again not a very popular accessory even among women):

- Supergirl, Powergirl, Wonder Woman (Hyppolita), Maxima, Mary Marvel (despite the fact the drop out later in her career); 5

Superheroines with Capes and Masks :

- Huntress, Dove, Batwoman; 3

Superheroines with Capes and Cowls :

- Raven, Batgirl (Stephany Brown), Batgirl (Cassandra Caine), Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Big Barda; 5

Superheroines with Cowls :

- Catwoman, Harley Quinn ( I only care for Paul Dini's version ); 2

Superheroines with Masks (a never out of fashion trend) :

- Arrowette, Ravager, Jesse Quick, Manhunter, Tigress, Star Sapphire, Star Girl, Liberty Belle; 8

Superheroines with No Capes, No Cowls, No Hoods and No Masks ( an overwhelming majority) :

- Wonder Woman, WonderGirl, Donna Troy, Black Canary, Ice, Looker, Halo, Gipsy, Artemis, Zatanna, Aquawoman (Mera), Terra, Mighty Isis, Circe, Enchatress, Giganta; 16

And in a special note

Superheroines with No Pants ( another surprisingly overwhelming majority) :

- Wonder Woman, Black Canary, Gipsy, Artemis, Zatanna, Mighty Isis, Circe, Giganta, Supergirl, Powergirl, Wonder Woman (Hyppolita), Maxima, Mary Marvel, Huntress, Raven; 15

Discuss, and discover who are the 12 Superheroines left out of the lists - a hint, most of them are not African American.
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So that's where the design for Kylo Ren's light saber came from.
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Have we got to the point yet? So you're arguing that the paucity of non-white characters is an indication of that the audence for this genre is white folks who want to see their own kind represented?

Except you've omitted the new Ms Marvel, Ultimate Spider-Man, Falcon, Utimate Nick Fury, Luke Cage, Black Panther, Vixen, John Stewart...

Well done on including Cyborg, though.
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Heroine Addict wrote:Have we got to the point yet? So you're arguing that the paucity of non-white characters is an indication of that the audence for this genre is white folks who want to see their own kind represented?

Except you've omitted the new Ms Marvel, Ultimate Spider-Man, Falcon, Utimate Nick Fury, Luke Cage, Black Panther, Vixen, John Stewart...

Well done on including Cyborg, though.

So then doesn't this prove the industry is NOT white male centric and that its diverse?
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It proves there is some diversity. But FallOutDweller appears to be the only person arguing that non-white characters are unpopular with his bizarre league tables. (If that's what he's arguing. It's difficult to tell WTF he's trying to say.)
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My lists and Superhero suggested groups are DC Comics Centric. I never said non-white characters are not popular, I said African Americans, Asians, Latinos, Europeans, Cybernetics, Aliens and Furries are minorities in the superhero fictional communityeven smaller than they really are in real life.
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Can we please get to the point? Your English is generally fine, so there's no excuse for these evasive posts. (Unless you're trolling?)

What comment are you trying to make about race?
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Second Point or Point 2.0 :

In fiction from now on do we really have have the need to be politically correct and ethnic diverse as possible or can we just follow our own independent identity and forget all the rest ?
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First off, the focus on ethnicity is way too navel-gazing for me. The idiotic term "white" encapsulates such a large crowd--Spanish, Mexican, French, German, Canadian, Finnish, Swedish, etc.--that it is a stupid term to use for so many different ethnicities.
Second, how above someone suggest what the appropriate percentages should be for each and every minority to be represented in the genre.
Third, is the suggestion that the liberal comic book world and world of entertainment is both racist and doesn't want to cash in on a variety of interests?
This is such a tired topic, and it seems most people are posting (not here but anywhere racial issues come up) on behalf of a group that doesn't really care.
Ignore any virtue-signaling; it's clearly just you.

Ignore any activism; it clearly doesn't exist.

Be very careful!
Don't be indoctrinated!
Ignore your common sense!

Everything is entirely normal and ignore the radical changes to culture.
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Remember Mr Terrific, Statick Shock and the African American Blue Beetle comic books ? They fail. Please explain me why.

A multi-ethnic Justice League International with Booster Gold as the leader and the Captain Atom comic books also failed, several comic books failed as we went through memory lane an see the recent history of the new 52. Why they throw so much shit in the wall and why so little stick in ?
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I am kinda drink now after England neat Wales in the rugnby (DAMN YOU!!!) and I've been on the pop for 11 hours so I have only scan read this thread as it seems to have exploded today, having missed it starting on Tuesday, but I want to say that we are all on this planet together and race is totally irrelevant - a beautiful woman is beautiful regardless of what colour her skin is and I appreciate perceptions of beauty are unique to individuals and thats my whole point we are all different and we should all tolerate others and get along. I really cant remember what this topic was about now good night
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FallOutDweller wrote:Remember Mr Terrific, Statick Shock and the African American Blue Beetle comic books ? They fail. Please explain me why.

A multi-ethnic Justice League International with Booster Gold as the leader and the Captain Atom comic books also failed, several comic books failed as we went through memory lane an see the recent history of the new 52. Why they throw so much shit in the wall and why so little stick in ?
Books fail all the time. Whether or not people care about the characters is a much better reason to keep reading than the hue of their skin.

Are you saying that the ethnic origin of the characters is a deterrent which hurts sales more than the quality of the books? If you're going to pursue such a contentious argument, I expect your evidence to be phenomenally good.
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Let people make want they want. If you want people to respect your privacy, respect theirs. There are no public and private groups or "classes" with special rules. One group does not owe everyone else something nor should it be treated as a common utility that everyone has a say in.

women can make comics for women. MEN can make comics for men. Women can make fun naughty stuff for females. MEN can make fun naughty stuff for men. Complain about one and you're a hypocrite for not complaining about the other.

But one cannot keep measuring life with a different dipstick for each group. No one is "owed" anything. There are no special cases.

If complainers continue to go down this path then all you are left with is a book with just a cover and all the pages torn out. Yeah you're going to get offended. The solution is not to cut all the trees down.
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Not the "complain about everything or complain about nothing" fallacy again. How exactly would that work? Every single person is selective in their ire. Including you.
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Heroine Addict wrote:Not the "complain about everything or complain about nothing" fallacy again. How exactly would that work? Every single person is selective in their ire. Including you.

How about the complainer accepting someone does have a right to cater to what they like. That no one is a public utility that owes everyone else.

It cannot be a shade of gray. If it is then we're back to some people get to complain and others cannot.

If I have to 'accept" well then everyone else has to accept.

I guess you can complain about anything you want but when you start pressuring and driving people out then don't be surprised when that happens to you.

But its also OK to complain about the complaints. Are they legitimate? Are they just an attempt to ruin someones' shit out of petty revenge?
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Except Marvel and DC are catering to who they like. And you don't like that.
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Heroine Addict wrote:Except Marvel and DC are catering to who they like. And you don't like that.
No I complained to illustrate the hypocrisy of others who complain about the same stupid stuff ie if its OK to complain about not enough diversity on mostly male material then shouldn't this complaint be against an all female team?

I'm exposing hypocrisy.
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Have you actually lodged a complaint with Marvel over A-Force's all-girl team? Hey, if you can get together a group to campaign about such things, then go ahead. You observed protests have worked in the past, so surely it's your turn to affect change for the better?

Of course, it's not the team that actually bothers you, but rather the belief that the "hypocrites" wouldn't respond to the equivalent complaint from men. Even though there's little evidence of men making such complaints.

So you're getting angry about the "hypocrisy" of how Marvel would act in your imagination if a notional meninist group were to protest against them? Is that what you're saying?
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Who needs Batman vs Superman or Captain America vs Iron Man when you can get HEROINE ADDICT VS MR.X, Last Son of Krypton vs The Gotham's Dark Knight. So glad to be my own Lex Luthor, so hard to decide who is who, I guess Mr X is Batman.
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Heroine Addict wrote:Have you actually lodged a complaint with Marvel over A-Force's all-girl team? Hey, if you can get together a group to campaign about such things, then go ahead. You observed protests have worked in the past, so surely it's your turn to affect change for the better?

Of course, it's not the team that actually bothers you, but rather the belief that the "hypocrites" wouldn't respond to the equivalent complaint from men. Even though there's little evidence of men making such complaints.

So you're getting angry about the "hypocrisy" of how Marvel would act in your imagination if a notional meninist group were to protest against them? Is that what you're saying?

What part of this are you not understanding? Its like you're trying to hold onto some high ground of "its OK to criticize group A" while then saying "don't criticize".

EVERYONE should be able to make stuff they want. If the criticize then expect criticism back.

But there are no special groups with special rules.
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Mr. X wrote: But there are no special groups with special rules.
Yes, there are, or at the very least there were, and various groups of people have been fighting to be given the same special rules for a long looooong time. There's potentially an argument to be made that the special rules have finally been applied to everyone, but there's just simply more evidence that they haven't based on sheer volumetric evidence utilizing even the most basic of passive glances over our own entertainment products. In the, frankly unbelievable to me, consideration that we are all being given the same privileges and opportunities as everybody else already argument, you'd still have to accept that continued activism was because it can take a degree of a cool down period after a war variable to the length and scope of basically every conflict.

As often and as much as anybody and everybody would like to complain that this or that was 'ruined' because of 'complaining' it isn't even about that. You are absolutely right to say that everybody should be allowed to create what they want. The activism (what you call complaining) directed at those people is a result of the base fact that not everybody is even being allowed TOO create. You have to be part of the film guild association in most instances to get enough funding to get serious movies made, produced, and distributed. The systems of governance over even the most simplistic entertainment processes either were or ARE absolutely rigged, if not by active sabotage, than by the passive prejudices of a nation that either didn't know any better or didn't WANT to know any better. Passive prejudice exists, absolutely, and it is very often not the fault of those who possess them, but it is up to everybody to do what they think they should once they recognize those prejudices within themselves.

As much as you clearly don't care for activism, 'complaining' about the things we feel someone has done wrong or aren't providing enough of is only one logical way to inform them as a paying customer when we feel they have done something wrong, or to give them awareness that there is demand for something else. Simply plugging our ears and accepting that we may never be sold the things we want because they are only selling to someone else is simply NEVER going to result in any kind of change and sure maybe you can call yourself free from hypocrisy with this practice, but you also run the risk of allowing others to wipe their feet on your face. The world can't just be apathy or ignorance or disinterest. Most SJW detractors are clearly disinterested in most of the things that people are 'complaining' about but are every bit the 'activist' in arguing that those people shouldn't be allowed to want anything else because it makes them hypocrites or whatever else, all the while never having to suffer through the same detracting factors as the people they are arguing against.
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ViridianIV wrote:Most SJW detractors are clearly disinterested in most of the things that people are 'complaining' about but are every bit the 'activist' in arguing that those people shouldn't be allowed to want anything else because it makes them hypocrites or whatever else, all the while never having to suffer through the same detracting factors as the people they are arguing against.

I'm not saying don't complain. I'm saying apply the standards universally. IF you complain expect people to complain. If you complain about petty shit then expect people complaining about petty shit about you. There is no such thing as social justice, just expansion of liberty. I am not responsible in any way for the actions of someone who resembles me.
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Mr. X wrote:
ViridianIV wrote:Most SJW detractors are clearly disinterested in most of the things that people are 'complaining' about but are every bit the 'activist' in arguing that those people shouldn't be allowed to want anything else because it makes them hypocrites or whatever else, all the while never having to suffer through the same detracting factors as the people they are arguing against.

I'm not saying don't complain. I'm saying apply the standards universally. IF you complain expect people to complain. If you complain about petty shit then expect people complaining about petty shit about you. There is no such thing as social justice, just expansion of liberty. I am not responsible in any way for the actions of someone who resembles me.
Of course not, but you can't argue that the same isn't applied by the opposition. If we all got a nickel every time someone arguing with a feminist brought up Anita Sarkeesian as if she WAS feminism, dropped the mic and tried to walk out as though all the problems of the world were resolved we'd have like, fifteen dollars more each (I'd at least have a nickel from you) but then you're telling me this as if it isn't universally upheld or something? Activists, by this point, EXPECT opposition activism, resulting no longer in activism OR complaining, but either argument or debate. Debate being utilized in the hopes of changing the views and opinions of the individuals you are speaking with OR who may be listening, while argument more often by those who just don't want to listen to, or want to filibuster, the opposition. Whether or not any of those four forms have any value, is as always, up to the individual to decide for themselves.

I don't imagine that any conceptualized entertainment medium hits the shelves without some degree of arguing and debate, and it is simply that more and more often, the feminists, minorities and the activists seem to be winning because somebody must be listening.
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Mr. X wrote:What part of this are you not understanding? Its like you're trying to hold onto some high ground of "its OK to criticize group A" while then saying "don't criticize".
The part I'm not understanding is how you're reaching the conclusion there's hypocrisy? You can cite Marvel's withdrawal of the Spider-Woman cover, but you haven't come up with a single example of male representation receiving a comparable backlash.

So you're concluding there's hypocrisy if Marvel do respond to a large number of complaints but they don't respond when there's hardly any complaints? Is my interpretation correct there? Are you basing your argument on an assumption of how Marvel (or other publishers/studios) would act in a hypothetical situation where an example of male representation draws a large number of complaints?
Mr. X wrote:EVERYONE should be able to make stuff they want.
Everyone? Really EVERYONE? You don't have any ideological line in the sand that would make you say "That shouldn't be in a Marvel comic!" when a writer or artist crosses it?

I was going to reel off a long list of undesirable scenarios and ask whether you think each one should be allowed to go unquestioned. But I'll be lazy and just ask you to consider whether you really want EVERYONE to produce anything they want without censure?
Mr. X wrote:If the criticize then expect criticism back.

But there are no special groups with special rules.
Publishers and studios have the freedom to decide what products they release to the market or indeed withdraw from the market. If there's a backlash, they then have to make a judgment call on whether escalation of the protest will damage the company's reputation. (Even if the actual complaints seem flawed.)

Now, much as you would like publishers to say "Fuck you!" to complainers, that's simply not going to happen. Nor are the protesters going to STFU, just because you say they should.

You could try to organize equivalent protests against comparable male representation. But would that just be for the sake of tit-for-tat, rather than due to any issue you have with the material?

Regardless of motivation, that fact is that such protests don't currently occur in large enough numbers for Marvel to worry. The perceived "hypocrisy" is based on belief they would ignore comparable protests, rather than evidence they have been ignored.
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ViridianIV wrote:Most SJW detractors are clearly disinterested in most of the things that people are 'complaining' about but are every bit the 'activist' in arguing that those people shouldn't be allowed to want anything else because it makes them hypocrites or whatever else, all the while never having to suffer through the same detracting factors as the people they are arguing against.

I'm not saying don't complain. I'm saying apply the standards universally. IF you complain expect people to complain. If you complain about petty shit then expect people complaining about petty shit about you. There is no such thing as social justice, just expansion of liberty. I am not responsible in any way for the actions of someone who resembles me.
The problem here is that you're lumping together all women. As if the women who complained about the Spider-Woman cover are the exact same women who enjoy shirtless scenes on Arrow. There's little or no evidence to support this claim of hypocrisy. So you have to fudge it by presenting women as a group.

If you're not responsible for the actions of someone who resembles you, why should an Arrow-watching woman be responsible for the Spider-Woman protests?
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tallyho wrote:I am kinda drink now after England neat Wales in the rugnby (DAMN YOU!!!) and I've been on the pop for 11 hours so I have only scan read this thread as it seems to have exploded today, having missed it starting on Tuesday, but I want to say that we are all on this planet together and race is totally irrelevant - a beautiful woman is beautiful regardless of what colour her skin is and I appreciate perceptions of beauty are unique to individuals and thats my whole point we are all different and we should all tolerate others and get along. I really cant remember what this topic was about now good night
England are king of the eggs. That is what is the important thing.
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Dogfish wrote:
tallyho wrote:I am kinda drink now after England neat Wales in the rugnby (DAMN YOU!!!) and I've been on the pop for 11 hours so I have only scan read this thread as it seems to have exploded today, having missed it starting on Tuesday, but I want to say that we are all on this planet together and race is totally irrelevant - a beautiful woman is beautiful regardless of what colour her skin is and I appreciate perceptions of beauty are unique to individuals and thats my whole point we are all different and we should all tolerate others and get along. I really cant remember what this topic was about now good night
England are king of the eggs. That is what is the important thing.
England : they exploit the world and later give for their former colonies all kinds of sports ever imagined by and able to fit all ethnicities, nations, religions, gender, etc.... and believed or not England sucks in most of them but is a glorious life achievement. The only way to make more fair was if the UK team was supposed to give gold medals for their adversaries everytime they lose for a former colony invidually or united.

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Heroine Addict wrote:You can cite Marvel's withdrawal of the Spider-Woman cover, but you haven't come up with a single example of male representation receiving a comparable backlash.
Um wouldn't that be hypocrisy? Why wasn't the Spider man cover removed or subsequently similar poses? Why was the outrage ONLY when Spider Woman posed like that? Same with Batgirl. Why did the Batgirl cover have to be removed? Of course there the Batgirl title was supposed to be aimed at minor girls so it was dark but that wasn't the reason given for pulling.
So you're concluding there's hypocrisy if Marvel do respond to a large number of complaints but they don't respond when there's hardly any complaints? Is my interpretation correct there? Are you basing your argument on an assumption of how Marvel (or other publishers/studios) would act in a hypothetical situation where an example of male representation draws a large number of complaints?
Can I ask you a question? Are you intentionally misinterpreting what someone writes on purpose? I've noticed you do this a lot. You are arguing a lot of strawman arguments. When did I say MARVEL were hypocrites? I was very clear I was referring to the complainers who were hypocrites. Complainers who bitch a male team has no diversity while cheering an all female team that has no diversity.

At this point I'm done. You're not debating. You're not reading what people write. You seem to be arguing something else.
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So this "hypocrisy" of which you speak is that the people complained about one thing didn't complain about something else? It would only be true hypocrisy if someone who complained about one actively endorsed the other and the two pieces were clearly identical in intention and content. Unless you're really getting tenuous with some sort of "hypocrisy by omission".

What you're using is the good old Whataboutism fallacy, which can be applied to every single complaint. Lodged by anyone. On any subject. Ever.
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Heroine Addict wrote:So this "hypocrisy" of which you speak is that the people complained about one thing didn't complain about something else? It would only be true hypocrisy if someone who complained about one actively endorsed the other. Unless you're really getting tenuous with some sort of "hypocrisy by omission".

What you're using is the good old Whataboutism fallacy, which can be applied to every single complaint. Lodged by anyone. On any subject. Ever.
Actually no. Its hypocrisy because they are not applying their rules universally. They are cherry picking. That's called lack of integrity.

Actually NO again on Whataboutism. Its OK to complain about something specific. Its not OK to complain about something only when group A does it then give group B a pass. Given your argument NOTHING could ever be hypocrisy or special pandering. Only complaining when white men do something then not holding women to the same standard and even praising women for the same wrong is not only hypocrisy but its called the sexism of lowered expectations.
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Just to be clear, what exactly do you want to happen and what are you personally doing to achieve that goal?

Do you want activists to STFU and go away? Never going to happen.

Do you want companies such as Marvel to ignore the activists or maybe tell them to go fuck themselves? If so, you need to realize that Marvel and other large companies weigh-up what's best for their business. There's no law that says Marvel has to give-in to protesters. They did so voluntarily as it seemed like the easiest resolution.

While you may think Marvel has a moral obligation to go ahead with an (atrociously drawn) variant cover, their main obligation is to shareholders who don't want a lucrative brand tainted by a backlash.
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