Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

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Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Dazzle1 »

Related to the ongoing disagreement about fans disagreeing with critics

I would argue that many of the critics who review movies or restaurants have an agenda

Ty Burr of the Boston Globe has a defnite bias on how he reviews movies and TV.

In the restaurant I would take Trip Advisor or Yelp over food critics

Likewise I would not take a biased source either side over several fans who know the subject better
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by tallyho »

It becomes a bit of a moot point as the two groups are coming at it from different sides. Joe Public have watched something to be entertained, critics are watching things mostly because its their job and they are paid to. Often rather than just being immersed in the film they are assesing different aspects of its quality - lighting, sound, photography, effects, direction etc whereas the public tend to only really acknowledge the acting performances and the plot.
Plus as critics see many more films than the average person they can pick up on influences or plagiarism that might influence their final opinion of the film whereas the public are more oblivious to such things.
A film can be terribly made but entertaining, or brilliantly made but boring.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Imagineer »

Any time there's been a fan movement complaining of a widespread agenda among professional critics, I've found the fan movement's agenda more problematic.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Bert »

Which critic? Which consumer? Is it a critic who you have generally agreed with in the past? Is the consumer a friend whose taste you share? There are way too many variables in your question. Professional critics can have all sorts of agendas. Moviegoers certainly can too. The thing is, we live in an age of plenty. Any movie will generate dozens and dozens of reviews. If critical opinion is important to you, find specific critics who you often agree with and use them to gauge the movie in question.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Dogfish »

This question is bad, and it speaks to a sickness in modern culture where everything has to be a contest, everything has to have a score, everything has to be a conspiracy, everybody has to be corrupt, and all that matters is numbers.

Burn review aggregator sites to the ground and salt the earth so that they do not grow again.

If you don't agree with the opinions of a reviewer don't read their opinions. They are not intended to be universal and they never were.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Dazzle1 »

Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago Any time there's been a fan movement complaining of a widespread agenda among professional critics, I've found the fan movement's agenda more problematic.
Fan movement also got the Star Trek TOS movies started

Ever hear of BJo Trimble

Sorry if I find Praeton or Internet Harpy better judges than some one from the Guardian
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by lionbadger »

The critic was more important (or influential) before public review aggregators. Now you can get the sum of views of a broad spectrum of say 100 people at the click of a button

Critics become important again if you lose faith in public reviews. Star wars fans for example are so needy and just want the same movie made again and again that you can't trust aggregates and need to look at critics.

So, critics, less important than they were but still fill a niche.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Dazzle1 »

I might point out if you look at the people who do the video reviews on this website review pretty fairly without an agenda.

As far as Star Wars the backlash came when you were not allowed to pan the Force Awakens

Forget Rey, the story was just a major rehash of New Hope

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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Imagineer »

Fan movement also got the Star Trek TOS movies started

No substitutions, please. What widespread agenda among professional critics was that fan movement complaining about?

"Some one from the Guardian." That sounds like it might be prejudice against anyone who sells out and takes a job working for the man as a critic. And you know what? If embracing that stereotype saves you time and grief and keeps you fat and happy in movies you like without burning time on movies you don't, go for it. Maybe you'll miss out on a richer life experience, maybe you won't, but we can't all read and watch everything. Just be wary of extending your filter to what should or shouldn't exist or who can or can't have value in the world -- that's where our filters can get us into trouble.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Dogfish »

Dazzle1 wrote: 3 years ago I might point out if you look at the people who do the video reviews on this website review pretty fairly without an agenda.

As far as Star Wars the backlash came when you were not allowed to pan the Force Awakens

Forget Rey, the story was just a major rehash of New Hope

Young protagonist living in the dessert
Mega Weapon
Masked armoured villain
Elderly mentor dies near the end.
No the backlash started when critics didn't pan the prequels because the prequels were shit. And I mean the difference between the prequels and the current trilogy is night and day, the prequels were fucking terrible, but nobody said anything, and I think that critics, on the whole, all lose credibility when they fail to call out a turkey or when they sleep on a classic.

This is why I'm happier now because critics know that there are no sacred cows. You can say that Batman vs Superman is dogshit, because it is. You can say that Solo is kinda shitty, because it is. You can say that Age of Ultron is crappy. Because it is. You can also have this wonderful state of affairs with something like Rogue One, where some people like it and some people don't, and that's okay too. It doesn't make it an average movie because some folks don't like it and some folks do, it just means it's not for everybody.

The Star Wars prequels were the tipping point after which critics realised that it was actually okay to point to the Emperor's new clothes and say, "Actually mate we can see your doodle."
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by GeekyPornCritic »

This question has a major flaw. Critics can also be customers.

Let's get to the point of the matter. Neither side presents better quality. Critics and customers can have different opinions and also may share opinions on certain movies.

A movie's quality is an opinion by viewers both critics and customers. Not every person is going to share the same opinion and experience. You may think Lion King is a fantastic movie, and I think it is very boring. Neither side is right or wrong. It's just a matter of taste.

Critics are not sleeping on classics or fail to call out a bad movie. Again, everyone has different standards and interest.

It really bothers me when I hear people especially on YouTube call people stupid and wrong for having a different point of view. A person is not required to enjoy your favorite movie. A person is not required to enjoy a classic. People will call me stupid and wrong for disliking Toy Story. Why must I or a critic enjoy it? Why am I not allowed to form my own opinion and needs?
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Dogfish »

Nah I think critics can fail. They can let movies and fans down by missing what is good. Critics panned Blade Runner on it's original release. Critics lavished praise on The Phantom Menace. And yeh it's just their opinions, but the opinion of a critic is meant to be better, in the same way that the cooking skills of a chef are meant to be better, or the medical skill of a doctor is meant to be better, a critic is supposed to have a better understanding of what makes a good film, and they should be able to express that to their audience.

Worth noting too that critics are part of the history of a movie. Fan opinions less so, fans do their talking through box office numbers. History will remember if a movie won critical acclaim, they won't remember if PanzerFan88 gave it a 0 on Rotten Tomatoes because he thought the direct was an SJW.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by tallyho »

Dazzle1 wrote: 3 years ago I might point out if you look at the people who do the video reviews on this website review pretty fairly without an agenda.

As far as Star Wars the backlash came when you were not allowed to pan the Force Awakens

Forget Rey, the story was just a major rehash of New Hope

Young protagonist living in the dessert
Mega Weapon
Masked armoured villain
Elderly mentor dies near the end.
You forgot chirping droid with secret plans and Mega Weapon has one weakness
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by GeekyPornCritic »

Dogfish wrote: 3 years ago Nah I think critics can fail. They can let movies and fans down by missing what is good. Critics panned Blade Runner on it's original release. Critics lavished praise on The Phantom Menace. And yeh it's just their opinions, but the opinion of a critic is meant to be better, in the same way that the cooking skills of a chef are meant to be better, or the medical skill of a doctor is meant to be better, a critic is supposed to have a better understanding of what makes a good film, and they should be able to express that to their audience.

Worth noting too that critics are part of the history of a movie. Fan opinions less so, fans do their talking through box office numbers. History will remember if a movie won critical acclaim, they won't remember if PanzerFan88 gave it a 0 on Rotten Tomatoes because he thought the direct was an SJW.
You cannot compare a chef and doctor to a critic. Doctors are trained for years in school, and chefs learn their craft through school and experience. Critics are offering opinions. There is not a clear direction to critique a work of art. Opinions are not taught. People form different interests through experience and personal happiness.

How can you expect anyone to agree with your opinions? A lot of people think the Lion King is a great film, but I think it is boring. If I made a review on the Lion King, then a lot of people would be angry without a justifiable reason.

I'm black and most black people love Tyler Perry. I liked Tyler at the beginning, but I no longer like his movies. His movies are like porn. They are extremely repetitive with the same jokes. Black wife is abused by an abusive husband. She wants a divorce after many years of abuse and she meets a working class black man. She wants to love him, but she is rich while he is working class. "Should I love this new man?" she asks herself. In the end, she loves the new guy dispute him being working class.

I said Tyler Perry is overrated on Facebook, and my black friends were not too happy.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Dazzle1 »

Dogfish wrote: 3 years ago Nah I think critics can fail. They can let movies and fans down by missing what is good. Critics panned Blade Runner on it's original release. Critics lavished praise on The Phantom Menace. And yeh it's just their opinions, but the opinion of a critic is meant to be better, in the same way that the cooking skills of a chef are meant to be better, or the medical skill of a doctor is meant to be better, a critic is supposed to have a better understanding of what makes a good film, and they should be able to express that to their audience.

Worth noting too that critics are part of the history of a movie. Fan opinions less so, fans do their talking through box office numbers. History will remember if a movie won critical acclaim, they won't remember if PanzerFan88 gave it a 0 on Rotten Tomatoes because he thought the direct was an SJW.
I am refering to the Woke critics of the last 5-10 years

Look at the Guardian who does premutive strikes against fans for Star Wars, Captain marvel , Black Panther and DW.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Dogfish »

Dazzle1 wrote: 3 years ago
Dogfish wrote: 3 years ago Nah I think critics can fail. They can let movies and fans down by missing what is good. Critics panned Blade Runner on it's original release. Critics lavished praise on The Phantom Menace. And yeh it's just their opinions, but the opinion of a critic is meant to be better, in the same way that the cooking skills of a chef are meant to be better, or the medical skill of a doctor is meant to be better, a critic is supposed to have a better understanding of what makes a good film, and they should be able to express that to their audience.

Worth noting too that critics are part of the history of a movie. Fan opinions less so, fans do their talking through box office numbers. History will remember if a movie won critical acclaim, they won't remember if PanzerFan88 gave it a 0 on Rotten Tomatoes because he thought the direct was an SJW.
I am refering to the Woke critics of the last 5-10 years

Look at the Guardian who does premutive strikes against fans for Star Wars, Captain marvel , Black Panther and DW.
What fans? The people giving Captain Marvel negative reviews before it even comes out, are they fans? Of what exactly? The people slating The Last Jedi, what are they fans of?

There's nothing wrong with taking a shot at the haters, and it's not like there's any shortage of them.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Visitor »

GeekyPornCritic wrote: 3 years ago You cannot compare a chef and doctor to a critic. Doctors are trained for years in school, and chefs learn their craft through school and experience. Critics are offering opinions. There is not a clear direction to critique a work of art. Opinions are not taught. People form different interests through experience and personal happiness.
Old school critics were for the most part trained although for a shorter time period than most professions. Back in the 1970s in high school English class we were still taught how to critic a film by looking at the style used to present the story, different techniques used to make points about the film's theme, and other things that modern Internet critics ignore. Someone that is trained can tell you how effectively the film makes it point and whether things like special effects help or hinder the story.

Now most Internet critics just tell you the love or hate a film without being able to give you enough information to determine whether you would feel the same. They haven't seen enough other material to say why it works or fails. Just look at all the remakes and sequels out there where viewers might not have seen to make proper comparisons.

For instance, I've seen every James Bond film and given a few hours could rank them from best to worst with reasons on acting and how well they story had believable logic. I couldn't do that for Star Wars or Shakespear because I didn't see them all. So any critic of a single one would just be a subjective opinion.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Femina »

Dazzle1 wrote: 3 years ago
I am refering to the Woke critics of the last 5-10 years
I mean, yeah, we know. The issue is in the argument of just exactly what 'woke' REALLY is, if its anything more than just an agenda driven catchall term itself, how much of it is a real and true problem, and how much of it is just you disagreeing with something that person said and deciding 'oh yeah they are all just woke!' I find and have ALWAYS found more to be concerned with from anyone using terms like 'woke' and 'snowflake' and complaining about 'safe space antichambers' whilst chuckling when they 'trigger' someone to be a much MUCH larger problem than anyone who was ever accused of being 'woke'.
Look at the Guardian who does premutive strikes against fans for Star Wars, Captain marvel , Black Panther and DW.
Sounds like you just disagree with the Guardian's opinion. The 'consumer critics' you are talking about are NOT fans of Captain Marvel. They are consistently looking for reasons (or enacting preemptive strikes as you might put it) to make Captain Marvel fail, be that to gripe about how Brie Larson doesn't care if they think she should smile or not, or be that demanding boycotts because she said she doesn't care what old curmudgeon rich white dudes think about her films' They aren't fans, they are whatever the OPPOSITE of fans are, and when someone who is the opposite of your fandom attacks your fandom YOU ATTACK THEM BACK. That's how human nature works. That's the cycle of violence, and that's the situation around Captain Marvel on this website at this momment. YOU won't stop heaping opinionated and agenda driven shit on a film whose FANS do not see your points as problematic.

You aren't a fan looking forward to seeing this movie Dazzle... unless you REALLY ARE, in which case you might want to start considering WHY you are this driven to hoping that it fails. How about you try just turning off the youtube critics and hoping it will be good for once. It's almost out, you don't even need to drown out your youtube guys for very long. If it DOES suck, there will be ample time for the remainder of eternity to have fun shitting on it. Hell if it sucks I'll join you in my disappointment.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by theScribbler »

The Guardian (which i'm only familiar with cause of you) can't be doing "premutive" anything cause "premutive" is not a word. Or tell us what it means (not in dictionary).

As far as "strikes against fans for Star Wars, Captain marvel , Black Panther and DW" I doubt that very much. But I'm open to look. Any proof?
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Dazzle1 »

First I a stated I am not seeing it because I am a D.C fan. I prefer even the D.C movies over Marvel

Regarding the Guardian, I use that as an example.

Read today's article and tell me if you agree, they did the same thing before Black Panther and Dr Who
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Imagineer »

They're responding to -- actually reporting on -- backlash.
They're not the ones making a preemptive strike.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Femina »

It's also worth noting that the 'fan backlash' in regard to Star Wars and Dr. Who is VERY DIFFERENT from 'fan backlash' of the Captain Marvel film. Star Wars and Dr. Who are things that have long histories of people who were already ENTRENCHED fans before the modern 'shakeups' unsettled them from their comfort food.

Captain Marvel's first film is about to come out. The majority of wouldbe 'entrenched' fans have yet to become fans. (Comic book fans of the old 'Miss Marvel' aren't as applicable, as she's never been a headlining figure for Marvel even at the height of her popularity)

Now, onto the whole critics vs consumer debate. The argument you seem to be making is that critics have agendas and consumers do not... which is absolute nonsense. Consumers are every bit as opinionated and agenda driven as any critic is, just look at the flood of youtube 'critics' who are really just people who watch movies for fun and talk about them on their youtube channels. Since criticism is in essence a statement of ones opinion, aka their 'agenda'.

Agendas aren't some shadow conspiracy that people push because they don't believe in them. The highest of the high high echelon of world leaders might push a false agenda to acquire some benefit sure... but 'the Guardian' isn't a world leader, if they are pushing an agenda its because that's what the Guardian ACTUALLY BELIEVES... now maybe some of the Guardian's employees don't hold the same belief... but the majority likely do or else it would be pushing a different agenda. The Guardian as a media entity isn't powerful enough to care about 'fooling' people into doing something it doesn't actually care about because it wont benefit from people being tricked into going to see a film about something they don't like.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Imagineer »

A not-insignificant element within Star Wars and Dr. Who backlash is the same as it is for Captain Marvel -- against what they perceive as a feminist agenda hijacking their thing and distracting the makers from what made their things good. And the Captain Marvel character itself isn't necessarily the thing they see as theirs -- it can be the MCU, or even comic books.

People don't like change of a status quo they're comfortable in, and they don't like to be told that what they like is not good, or that they should be thinking about stuff they don't want to think about. Activism and professional criticism are both easily pushed off as an agenda backed by a minority conspiracy against what most people are totally fine with.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Dazzle1 »

Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago A not-insignificant element within Star Wars and Dr. Who backlash is the same as it is for Captain Marvel -- against what they perceive as a feminist agenda hijacking their thing and distracting the makers from what made their things good. And the Captain Marvel character itself isn't necessarily the thing they see as theirs -- it can be the MCU, or even comic books.

People don't like change of a status quo they're comfortable in, and they don't like to be told that what they like is not good, or that they should be thinking about stuff they don't want to think about. Activism and professional criticism are both easily pushed off as an agenda backed by a minority conspiracy against what most people are totally fine with.
The backlash is for different reason but their does seem to be a defnite effort from the producers to attack fans

In the case of ST Discovery ii is primarily the lead actress is a terrible actress (in most fan's opiion ) and they ignoring ST Canon and the sucessful formula of making the lead a known actor.

In the case of DW, it predates Whittaker and is just the SJW male bashing agenda

In Star Wars it is bad writing or rehashing of earlier plots and yes that Rey is a Mary sue

In Marvel is is certain leftist press plus Brie Larsen's big mouth. Please remind when Gadot attacked the fans
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Imagineer »

So Gadot is one of the good ones?

I'm not buying your agenda.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Dazzle1 »

Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago So Gadot is one of the good ones?

I'm not buying your agenda.
Gadot and the film recieved a lot of skepticsm but she did not attack the fans the way Larsen, The ST actress and Whittaker and their allies are.

Please pay attention
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Femina »

Dazzle1 wrote: 3 years ago
Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago So Gadot is one of the good ones?

I'm not buying your agenda.
Gadot and the film recieved a lot of skepticsm but she did not attack the fans the way Larsen, The ST actress and Whittaker and their allies are.

Please pay attention
Again, what fans? From what I can tell Larson 'attacked' people who were attacking her. When someone tells you 'you need to smile more' you can either fold to their 'agenda' or tell them to fuck off, but it's pretty unlikely they were actually your fan.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Imagineer »

Dazzle1 wrote: 3 years ago Please pay attention
Yes, I understand that Gadot chose to just smile demurely when she was attacked, and the others chose to call out their attackers.
And I understand that you think only Gadot's choice is acceptable behavior for a woman.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by DrDominator9 »

Gadot went on Jimmy Kimmel and asked him what he thought of her breast size in a non-aggressive way, referring to the sexist comments that she couldn't "fill" the role of Wonder Woman properly because she didn't have such Amazonian attributes.

Actresses face a world of unfair predjudices every day from ageism to hints of having to sleep with people in order to land choice roles. Hollywood is a meat factory most of the time And this is coming from someone who loves films with a passion.

My point is that actors and actresses fight against the undertow of very nasty conditions of sexism, ageism, racism and, most of all, capitalism every day of the week. The way they negotiate those perilous waters to be able to ultimately surf majestically into the shoreline of a successful career with style and grace is a marvel. (Excuse the pun.) Some of them dont; drowning in the waves of infamy, depression, drug abuse or simple obscurity. It's a tough gig. To shine at it is rare. Brie has won an Oscar for her work. I suspect she got a lot more fufillment from that role than from this one.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by GeekyPornCritic »

DrDominator9 wrote: 3 years ago Gadot went on Jimmy Kimmel and asked him what he thought of her breast size in a non-aggressive way, referring to the sexist comments that she couldn't "fill" the role of Wonder Woman properly because she didn't have such Amazonian attributes.

Actresses face a world of unfair predjudices every day from ageism to hints of having to sleep with people in order to land choice roles. Hollywood is a meat factory most of the time And this is coming from someone who loves films with a passion.

My point is that actors and actresses fight against the undertow of very nasty conditions of sexism, ageism, racism and, most of all, capitalism every day of the week. The way they negotiate those perilous waters to be able to ultimately surf majestically into the shoreline of a successful career with style and grace is a marvel. (Excuse the pun.) Some of them dont; drowning in the waves of infamy, depression, drug abuse or simple obscurity. It's a tough gig. To shine at it is rare. Brie has won an Oscar for her work. I suspect she got a lot more fufillment from that role than from this one.
Fans have unrealistic expectations especially for actresses, who play busty characters from comics and anime. Gadot is a fantastic Wonder Woman. Not every Wonder Woman and Supergirl need to have a size double d. The argument can be made for Power Girl since it is part of her character, but she is the only expectation to the rule in my opinion.

Some fans really hate changes to a character's race for a movie and TV show. They are attached to the character for having similar attributes. Unfortunately, these people feel that they cannot relate to a character of a different race. I think the simple solution is to create original minority characters instead of changing the races of established characters. For example, Jimmy in Supergirl could have been given a different name since his background is very different from the Jimmy in the comics.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by bushwackerbob »

Back in the day there used to be a show called Siskel and Ebert, they were renowned film critics who spent a half hour a week reviewing movies, often debating among themselves the pros and cons of a particular film. One of the things that I remember about the show was that while they did talk in critic speak language, about lighting, cinematography, directing, theme, style, Siskel and Ebert clearly had a love of movies, a feel of pure joy and wonderment as they talked of the movies they loved and expounded on. Contrast that with the jaded attitude of today's film critics, all about giving edgy takes, singling out a film's flaws and ignoring the stronger aspects of a particular film. It sometimes seems like reviewing movies is a bloodsport game to see how creative or clever a film critic can be in taking down a film. To me, the best film critics are those whose love of film can be seen through their film reviews.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by DrDominator9 »

bushwackerbob wrote: 3 years ago Back in the day there used to be a show called Siskel and Ebert, they were renowned film critics who spent a half hour a week reviewing movies, often debating among themselves the pros and cons of a particular film. One of the things that I remember about the show was that while they did talk in critic speak language, about lighting, cinematography, directing, theme, style, Siskel and Ebert clearly had a love of movies, a feel of pure joy and wonderment as they talked of the movies they loved and expounded on. Contrast that with the jaded attitude of today's film critics, all about giving edgy takes, singling out a film's flaws and ignoring the stronger aspects of a particular film. It sometimes seems like reviewing movies is a bloodsport game to see how creative or clever a film critic can be in taking down a film. To me, the best film critics are those whose love of film can be seen through their film reviews.
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I couldn't agree more, BWB.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Dazzle1 »

Femina wrote: 3 years ago
Dazzle1 wrote: 3 years ago
Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago So Gadot is one of the good ones?

I'm not buying your agenda.
Gadot and the film recieved a lot of skepticsm but she did not attack the fans the way Larsen, The ST actress and Whittaker and their allies are.

Please pay attention
Again, what fans? From what I can tell Larson 'attacked' people who were attacking her. When someone tells you 'you need to smile more' you can either fold to their 'agenda' or tell them to fuck off, but it's pretty unlikely they were actually your fan.
Larsen started the attacks. From what I have read and watched. The criticsm was that there were making her far too powerful which has been a Marvel comic problem with all their revisionist SJW heroes. Thor replaced by a women, Captain america secreat Nazi, Tony Stark out performer by a minority teenager in cybernetics etc.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Femina »

Dazzle1 wrote: 3 years ago
Femina wrote: 3 years ago
Dazzle1 wrote: 3 years ago
Imagineer wrote: 3 years ago So Gadot is one of the good ones?

I'm not buying your agenda.
Gadot and the film recieved a lot of skepticsm but she did not attack the fans the way Larsen, The ST actress and Whittaker and their allies are.

Please pay attention
Again, what fans? From what I can tell Larson 'attacked' people who were attacking her. When someone tells you 'you need to smile more' you can either fold to their 'agenda' or tell them to fuck off, but it's pretty unlikely they were actually your fan.
Larsen started the attacks. From what I have read and watched. The criticsm was that there were making her far too powerful which has been a Marvel comic problem with all their revisionist SJW heroes. Thor replaced by a women, Captain america secreat Nazi, Tony Stark out performer by a minority teenager in cybernetics etc.
Larson did nothing of the sort. It all started with the 'Larson doesn't smile enough in this trailer!' shenanigans and when she responded by posting images of the male superheroes with rediculously photo shopped smiles it was then on the outrage culture to get buthurt that she didn't hear their criticism and commit suicide over the sheer weight and power of their opinions. I mean, she didn't like that we (and I do mean WE, even I thought 'they could have shown a bit more of the characters emoting in this trailer' when it came out) told her she should smile more!?!?!? HOW DARE SHE! Doesn't she know that as an actress she's not allowed to poke fun at people and that she exists only to be analyzed and judged?

You can't blame the SJW's for this one either. Miss Marvel has ALWAYS been a very powerful superheroine in the MCU, not necessarily THE MOST powerful in any ONE thing but because she's always had a varied set of high teir powers. This isn't a new 'SJW incited' thing, its just Carol Danvers regular ordinary powers being what they are and have always been. Thor being replaced temporarily by Natalie Portman, Captain America the fascist and Riri Williams/Shuri have nothing to do with Captain Marvel's powerset. She's had the same basic powers that have only really evolved and changed a little since she was introduced in the 1960's. You can't blame the SJW's for the 60's or else you have to accept there's no such thing as SJW's and they are actually just people with opinions and beliefs that don't align with the ones you ordinary come by.

It's the same with critics... just cause somebody likes something you don't like doesn't mean they are an alien creature from another planet whose actually hear to take everything that you love and throw it in a blender. It just means they like things that you don't.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Dogfish »

To be honest I'd sort of enjoy it if Marvel increased the power levels of characters based on how outraged the far right got about them.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Dazzle1 »

First Ms/Captain Marvel has changed so many times

From being a mid range at best heroine who had trouble with the Scorpion

to an african american one whose many powers seem to be energy manipulation

to the more powerful one who got her powers stolen by Rouge

But getting back to the original point was who could do better reviews. If it is someone who does it for a living and that his or her man job fine but when you get a reviewer who only does it because they want to promote an agenda and say did not review most of this years oscars that is a problem.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Imagineer »

Dazzle1 wrote: 3 years ago ...when you get a reviewer who only does it because they want to promote an agenda and say did not review most of this years oscars that is a problem.
First, you just described most YouTube videos and comments from consumers. I think you're creating a harder line than exists between amateurs and pros, between the rise of the gig economy and monetized social media, and the fall of journalism as industry and career.

Second, film criticism is part of social criticism, and so a reviewer promoting a social agenda is appropriate, as are people who are selective about what they review. If you're here to argue that film critics for traditional news organizations have an editorial responsibility to hew toward the general interest as much as their organizations do, I'd counter that (1) news organizations have always given editorial latitude to individual columnists that weren't always in line with the organization or the public, and (2) the traditional news organization as a concept is pretty much wrecked in the US today.

And as a consumer of film criticism, you have many choices when it comes to sources of film criticism. On a practical level, choose sources that work for you to figure out whether or not you want to spend $20 on that movie -- in other words, choose critics who are evaluating the qualities you consider important. On a broader level of film as art and social commentary, try to look for voices of reason outside your safe zone from time to time.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by GeekyPornCritic »

There is one factor that we have overlooked. Some journalist and bloggers do not write their articles. They build sites only for profit, and they pay freelancers to write articles. This is very common with blogs. The writer may not have written the reviews. He or she may have paid a freelancer. The bloggers may not care about the point of view by the freelancers. They just want traffic and earnings.

There is nothing wrong with making a website for profit. I am all for passive income. However, if a blog or site only features articles from freelancers, then the site's owner does not care about the content. His or her intentions are to get your attention and earn money from the attention. There is no motive of truly expressing an opinion that one believes in.

These bloggers did not watch these movies. They're not expressing their feelings or thoughts. They're passing someone's thoughts, but there is no proof if the freelancer watched the movies.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by Imagineer »

That's a good point. And those aggregation sites aren't just looking for anything to fill the hole -- they want articles that get clicks. And controversy gets clicks.
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Re: Who is a better judge of quality a critic or a consumer

Post by theScribbler »

Yep, clickbait. Has a lot to do with the dishonest, disinfomation campaign. In this year of no election, they need something to do. "Let's take what Brie Larson said, twist it into something she didn't say but we'll say she did, turn a pebble into the tallest mountain on earth, pretend we're greatly hurt, wounded, massively offended, act like angry manbabies and launch an internet troll campaign against her and her movie." People with the smallest minds, ethics and character trying to be influential. We'll see.
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