The Last Jedi sux: Heres why.. SPOILERS

[batgirl1969]

Imagine if Quentin Tarentino was tapped to direct episode 9...like he possibly will be for Star trek 4...rated R....I bet Rey would be "taught" a lot more than balance....maybe how to balance on her tip.toes, strung up in a First order torture facility.....

Because you KNOW thats what would really happen...look what happened to leia at Jabbas palace!

[Mr. X]

He taught her the force was about balance but he didn't teach her anything about how to use it.

This is what really bothered me. All of the previous Star Wars and the whole genre is about huge amounts of learning and practice. Now the messages is you don't need to learn anything and magic powers will just tell you what to do. Its a sad message for a kid.

About as bad as DBS in which Caulifa gets to SSJ3 without any practice or learning and within 20 minutes. And the commonality is women. I think women are being gas lighted and its despicable.

[Heroine Addict]

He taught her the force was about balance but he didn't teach her anything about how to use it.

This is what really bothered me. All of the previous Star Wars and the whole genre is about huge amounts of learning and practice. Now the messages is you don't need to learn anything and magic powers will just tell you what to do. Its a sad message for a kid.

About as bad as DBS in which Caulifa gets to SSJ3 without any practice or learning and within 20 minutes. And the commonality is women. I think women are being gas lighted and its despicable.

The commonality isn't really women. Fantasy fiction is littered with Jesusy "chosen one" males who get up to speed with only a fraction (if any) of the training usually required to master such skills.

Just look at Neo and Doctor Strange. Johnny Come Lately "naturals" who arrive as adults and rapidly get promoted above people who have spent a lifetime in training.

[Mr. X]

He taught her the force was about balance but he didn't teach her anything about how to use it.

This is what really bothered me. All of the previous Star Wars and the whole genre is about huge amounts of learning and practice. Now the messages is you don't need to learn anything and magic powers will just tell you what to do. Its a sad message for a kid.

About as bad as DBS in which Caulifa gets to SSJ3 without any practice or learning and within 20 minutes. And the commonality is women. I think women are being gas lighted and its despicable.

The commonality isn't really women. Fantasy fiction is littered with Jesusy "chosen one" males who get up to speed with only a fraction (if any) of the training usually required to master such skills.

Just look at Neo and Doctor Strange. Johnny Come Lately "naturals" who arrive as adults and rapidly get promoted above people who have spent a lifetime in training.

True there. The 60s-00s were inundated with Jesus type heroes. However the trend was to grow out of that. I don't think people liked the white male "born with" hero type who always won and never lost. Now making that women doesn't help.

But Star Wars and all its cannon is about training.

No one liked episode 3 in which young Anikin through no training blows up some bad guy's control ship. That was clearly pandering to little kids. What SW has done with Rey is pander to women. Gas light them. I see it as a step back to the 90s with the golden god hero type that got old and boring. There is nothing "Rey" in who she is. Its born with ability. Its almost anti Rauls in a way.

[Femina]

True there. The 60s-00s were inundated with Jesus type heroes. However the trend was to grow out of that. I don't think people liked the white male "born with" hero type who always won and never lost. Now making that women doesn't help.

Are we sure about this? I recall a lot of fan worship of just these sorts of heroes when I was young. It could be that we just were so exposed to that sort of hero that when we naturally evolved them into 'real people' we were ready for it? We weren't comfortable, in those days, perceiving our heroes as overly flawed but perhaps now we've finally gotten around to making action heroines we're going to see the same trend. Jesusy type heroes for awhile until we naturally evolve the trope. To me this sort of thing seems in line with humanities general pattern of change. Three steps foreward, two steps back. In order for us to be comfortable with taking risks, we like to make sure we've got a good solid support structure first.

But Star Wars and all its cannon is about training.

No one liked episode 3 in which young Anikin through no training blows up some bad guy's control ship. That was clearly pandering to little kids. What SW has done with Rey is pander to women. Gas light them. I see it as a step back to the 90s with the golden god hero type that got old and boring. There is nothing "Rey" in who she is. Its born with ability. Its almost anti Rauls in a way.

You mean episode 1. (most would agree that episode 3 is the best of the terrible prequels, it actually has a solid as stone script that is just mauled by everyone's terrible performances... not that George Lucas isn't still at fault for sabotaging his own work by mismanaging his talent)

As for the other bit, I point you back to my first paragraph, I'm not personally sold that people necessarily WANT flawed heroines (nor would I say I was certain that they Do not for that matter, I'm more than willing to grant that it seems like a conflictive issue that few are tackling atm) Not sure who all here has seen the old 'Avatar' cartoon series (not James Cameron's cowboys and aliens flick) The first series about Aang whose basically perfect EVERYONE loves, and while the sequel series 'The Legend of Korra' has a good amount of people falling on both sides of the Love/hate spectrum, there's no denying that Korra is simply a more nuanced and emotionally interesting character with humongous flaws and fewer people liked her.

I think the question really comes to 'what do we want to look to in our heroes' and when you put them into a medium where you've only got two hours every two years to show your heroes off it is incredibly hard to please ANYONE much less everyone. It could be Rey would be a far more interesting character if Kylo Ren had kicked her ass in TFA... and it could be that despite that she'd have no fans or people who care about her as a result?

[Darkdestroyer17]

Could be wrong but i think that people liked the legend of Korra less as a Series. That's to be expected as sequels are seldom as well received as the original. I know a lot of people who found Ang boring in the first series. I also prefer Korra to Aang.

I think that if you put a male in Rey's place he would be received just as poorly. (granted probably less vehemently) but for those of us whose issues with Rey don't lie with her sex but rather in the fact that she lacks depth or training it would be no different if it were a male. As a result, each time she does things no force user with her level of training (zero) should be able to do it simply not only makes her less compelling but it at the same time cheapens and alienates the characters and lore that came before. I want to dead the entire "if you don't like Rey it means you are sexist narrative." because its not true. People can have opinions without attacks on their character and being labeled something they are simply not. Not saying it happens on this forum but i have seen it alot around the interwebs

[Femina]

To be fair, I've never actually seen anyone on this forum say 'If you don't like Rey' your sexist... I've never actually seen it anywhere outside of youtube where the comments are ALWAYS a little bit violent and combative anyway. I feel like most people who dislike Rey probably have solid personal reasoning (Though it isn't that she's a Mary Sue... because everyone uses the term Mary Sue incorrectly. She's only a Mary Sue if J.J. Abrams and Rian Johhnson wrote her that way because they secretly wish they were a really amazingly talented young woman with force powers. The 'perfect character' trope isn't actually the same thing... Mary Sue as a term is primarily describing a form of wish fulfillment in writing, while people tend use it as a direct qualifier in film... we should really just make up a new word... but we wont)

I personally don't feel like Star Wars as a narrative has ever really stressed as much training as everyone seems to think it has... at least not in the GOOD ones, but granted 'some' training was shown in in the originals (not nearly enough to realistically produce a fully trained Master Jedi Luke but SOME. The prequels on the other hand stressed the utter demand for a lifetime of training... though to me the Jedi's training was always more about not having sex and controlling ones inner darkness than it was about swinging lightsabers since everyone was always told to just 'let go' and let the force do it for them anyway... I like to think that somewhere is an idiot savant that just goes brain dead and lets the force do EVERYTHING for them. They are probably so powerful they give Yoda nightmares!

To put things back on track a little bit, the film would have survived a phenomenally talented heroine, that's not TLJ's big issue. She was the same character in TFA and for the most part she markets well where she's meant to be marketed. That she's the daughter of nobody spice junkers after the previous film set up that she was probably somebody important's daughter was a much worse narrative stumble. If you let directors refuse to follow through on previous plot points... then you wind up with just 'a bunch of stuff that happened' and not a STORY.

[tallyho]

I took Ren telling her that her folks were scum just to seduce her to join him but regardless, if as you say they morphed it from the storyline of :-
'Her parents are special'
to
'Her parents are nobodies'
they could just as easily morph it back again in the next one.
I actually liked that her parents were non entities was a nice surprise so I hope they stick with it

[ksire_99]

Imagine if Quentin Tarentino was tapped to direct episode 9...like he possibly will be for Star trek 4...rated R....I bet Rey would be "taught" a lot more than balance....maybe how to balance on her tip.toes, strung up in a First order torture facility.....

Because you KNOW thats what would really happen...look what happened to leia at Jabbas palace!

I agree she would be strung up as a symbol of what happens to those who think 'wrong'.

(I do like the idea you had, in the context of this forum :P )

K

[Dogfish]

Vader woulda choked him in 2 srconds flat. Lol

Thing is if you make leading bad guys the comic relief they lose any aspect of menace and threat. As the First Order are MEANT to be space nazis its crying out for a Cushing type in the role instead of ginge who is way too young to be a general.
But regardless i could live with a dick head character if the guy could act instead of the hammy performance he delivers. He belongs in a delicatessen not a SW movie

I don't think he lacks menace just because he's an idiot. The whole point of this new series is that young folks are running the war between light and dark and both sides are inexperienced and both sides are making mistakes. Vader wouldn't have put up with it, indeed I suspect some of his own officers are less than impressed (see the Dreadnought captain who laments not having the fighters up earlier), but the whole point of an army of droogs where free thought is brutally suppressed is there's nobody going to replace him.

It's a bit like Rogue One, the undoing of the Empire forces in that movie to a great extent is how they are all trying to screw each other over for the credit for the other guy's work. Because that's what badguys do when they're not blowing up planets or shooting prisoners, they're doing standard office knobhead stuff.

[Dogfish]

He taught her the force was about balance but he didn't teach her anything about how to use it.

This is what really bothered me. All of the previous Star Wars and the whole genre is about huge amounts of learning and practice. Now the messages is you don't need to learn anything and magic powers will just tell you what to do. Its a sad message for a kid.

About as bad as DBS in which Caulifa gets to SSJ3 without any practice or learning and within 20 minutes. And the commonality is women. I think women are being gas lighted and its despicable.

See this is why the prequels fucked up with all the crap about training and whatnot. You're not supposed to have to train to use the force. It's Do or Do Not. What part of 'There is no try' suggests that force use is a process that is honed over years of practice? You do it, or you don't.

When Luke goes to see Yoda in Empire the 'training' is a ruse to open his mind to the possibility. He's not ready to fight Vader not because he hasn't done five thousand Force pushups, but because he still doesn't understand how the force works.

[tallyho]

I don't think he lacks menace just because he's an idiot.

No, he lacks menace because hes a ginge who cant act.

[Femina]

Vader woulda choked him in 2 srconds flat. Lol

Thing is if you make leading bad guys the comic relief they lose any aspect of menace and threat. As the First Order are MEANT to be space nazis its crying out for a Cushing type in the role instead of ginge who is way too young to be a general.
But regardless i could live with a dick head character if the guy could act instead of the hammy performance he delivers. He belongs in a delicatessen not a SW movie

I don't think he lacks menace just because he's an idiot. The whole point of this new series is that young folks are running the war between light and dark and both sides are inexperienced and both sides are making mistakes. Vader wouldn't have put up with it, indeed I suspect some of his own officers are less than impressed (see the Dreadnought captain who laments not having the fighters up earlier), but the whole point of an army of droogs where free thought is brutally suppressed is there's nobody going to replace him.

It's a bit like Rogue One, the undoing of the Empire forces in that movie to a great extent is how they are all trying to screw each other over for the credit for the other guy's work. Because that's what badguys do when they're not blowing up planets or shooting prisoners, they're doing standard office knobhead stuff.

No... no idiots definitely lack menace. Kylo's not an idiot though... he's just an emotional hot head with no strategic knowledge whatsoever. People likely to lose their shit and cut your head off for saying the wrong thing definately exude a bit of menace. The First Order was IMMEASURABLY weakened by losing Snoke though, because even if Kylo scares his people he's a shit leader. It wasn't a good choice to make the villains fundamentally WEAKER before the final installment of the trilogy either... that's sort of the opposite of ramping up the stakes. I'll be the first to admit that more than a few trilogies of late have failed for ramping up the stakes TO FAR and then not knowing how to resolve the situation without a deus ex machina... but the answer isn't to make the stakes lower than they were before... it's just to map out your story ahead of time (and damned be potential leaks)

[Heroine Addict]

I don't think he lacks menace just because he's an idiot.

No, he lacks menace because hes a ginge who cant act.

Woah! Here's a song which explains the folly of that hate crime, Mr. Ho.

[Dogfish]

Vader woulda choked him in 2 srconds flat. Lol

Thing is if you make leading bad guys the comic relief they lose any aspect of menace and threat. As the First Order are MEANT to be space nazis its crying out for a Cushing type in the role instead of ginge who is way too young to be a general.
But regardless i could live with a dick head character if the guy could act instead of the hammy performance he delivers. He belongs in a delicatessen not a SW movie

I don't think he lacks menace just because he's an idiot. The whole point of this new series is that young folks are running the war between light and dark and both sides are inexperienced and both sides are making mistakes. Vader wouldn't have put up with it, indeed I suspect some of his own officers are less than impressed (see the Dreadnought captain who laments not having the fighters up earlier), but the whole point of an army of droogs where free thought is brutally suppressed is there's nobody going to replace him.

It's a bit like Rogue One, the undoing of the Empire forces in that movie to a great extent is how they are all trying to screw each other over for the credit for the other guy's work. Because that's what badguys do when they're not blowing up planets or shooting prisoners, they're doing standard office knobhead stuff.

No... no idiots definitely lack menace. Kylo's not an idiot though... he's just an emotional hot head with no strategic knowledge whatsoever. People likely to lose their shit and cut your head off for saying the wrong thing definately exude a bit of menace. The First Order was IMMEASURABLY weakened by losing Snoke though, because even if Kylo scares his people he's a shit leader. It wasn't a good choice to make the villains fundamentally WEAKER before the final installment of the trilogy either... that's sort of the opposite of ramping up the stakes. I'll be the first to admit that more than a few trilogies of late have failed for ramping up the stakes TO FAR and then not knowing how to resolve the situation without a deus ex machina... but the answer isn't to make the stakes lower than they were before... it's just to map out your story ahead of time (and damned be potential leaks)

Both sides are weaker, which is important I think. The First Order loses the planet weapon, then a dreadnought, then Snoke's ship, and the boss himself. The Rebels are similarly cut to ribbons by the end of the movie.

The set up for the end of the series is two factions having smashed into each other for so long that it has to end soon one way or the other.

My bet is on Kylo calling it off. My hunch is that the whole Star Wars mess cannot end with victory, it has to end with balance.

[Abductorenmadrid]

With every new Star Wars film the over arching story twists and turns. With the original trilogy it was about Luke mastering the Force and the rebels fighting against the Empire. With the prequels we get more of a sense the entire arc is about Anakin and his journey to the darkside, only to find redemption at the end. Thus the prequels and the entire franchise till then could be seen as being more about HIM and not his offspring, Luke and Leia. Now with the sequels there is a new shift in what the total arc is about ...

What I think the new films are showing us is that there is an even deeper story, one that has been staring us in the face. The films are more about the Force and ITS constant journey. In Ep1 the Force had a home within many acknowledged and trained users and over time it has been stamped out, either with the slaying of the Jedi or the Sith who sought to overthrow them. We complain that Rey seemed to get hold of the Force and use it so easily. Now, having seen Ep VIII I think it is the Force that made it easy. The Force is bottled up with few people to use it and it has bled out into those who are sensitive to it. Yoda perhaps sees the Force changing, adapting to what it wants. He destroys the texts I think because he realises the Force is just like quantum mechanics, "If you think you know how it works, you don't know how it works!" He knows that for all the wisdom that was in them they still managed to create a Sith. They still got overthrown. And so, what do the books matter? Even Kylo has a sense of this turning happening though his solution was to simply get the First Order under new management ...

Perhaps the Force is self balancing and moving towards the middle ground, that it knows it cannot survive if its users are so polar opposites. Within Kylo we have seen his ability to be merciful and within Rey there have been flashes of the Sith in her eyes. Perhaps then these characters are not "broken" in terms of what we think the rules of the Force are meant to be, they are exactly how the Force is trying to be. I for one enjoyed the film and with my shifting view on what is happening can come to peace with what seemed to be inconsistencies in how the Star Wars universe functioned.

[tallyho]

I don't think he lacks menace just because he's an idiot.

No, he lacks menace because hes a ginge who cant act.

Woah! Here's a song which explains the folly of that hate crime, Mr. Ho.

No its no hate crime because as the song says I have a fringe with a hint of the ginge in it myself (Except I call it a copper streak) so I can legitimately use the phrase. But Hux is still a shite actor .

[Dogfish]

He's fine. He's been good in a few things (actually not been in a hell of a lot). He's in Dredd though, and everybody in that gets a pass forever.

[Dogfish]

By the way, regarding the Force, here's a neat little video I saw about it. The theory here is a good one, that the Force is not a wizard's spell book or a extra level set of ninja skills, it's fate, destiny and luck. And it also touches on the important point that the Rebels have always recognised this, hence the phrase, "May the Force be with you" Which is said to everybody, not just Jedi, because it matters to everybody, not just Jedi.

[tallyho]

He's fine. He's been good in a few things (actually not been in a hell of a lot). He's in Dredd though, and everybody in that gets a pass forever.

Next time its on just listen to his delivery in those opening scenes - its the delivery of a man in a cape with a top hat (and a moustache that he twirls) who has tied a damsel in distress to some railway tracks.

[Dogfish]

He's fine. He's been good in a few things (actually not been in a hell of a lot). He's in Dredd though, and everybody in that gets a pass forever.

Next time its on just listen to his delivery in those opening scenes - its the delivery of a man in a cape with a top hat (and a moustache that he twirls) who has tied a damsel in distress to some railway tracks.

Ah come on the bit with the prank space phone call is outstanding.

[tallyho]

No its not as it was a sub plot of a story I wrote 18 months ago which now when I use it will look like I have just copied SW

[tallyho]

And why would they bother to not blow him out of the air...vacuum...whatever?

[Mr. X]

I think people need to realize the franchise is NOT for the old fans anymore. Things have to move on. You can't keep serving corn beef hash over and over again. The phoenix has to burn to be reborn. Maybe the 40 something fans need to stop buying action figures and let the 7-15 year olds enjoy something. Time to move on.

[Dogfish]

And why would they bother to not blow him out of the air...vacuum...whatever?

Because if you had a competent bad guy it'd be a really short franchise. Most series would be.

[tallyho]

And why would they bother to not blow him out of the air...vacuum...whatever?

Because if you had a competent bad guy it'd be a really short franchise. Most series would be.

No, you can have them try and fail to stop him same as good guy- bad guy show downs since time immemmorial. Not to have them try was just f'in stupid.

[Femina]

Guys STOP... looking for the specific mechanics of the force is an activity that is in the spirit of midichlorians... an attempt to explain 'space magic' in a scientific way that pissed fans off, because they WANTED the force to be space magic.

Star Wars is Science Fantasy, NOT Science Fiction, you should all really stop looking for 'why' the force works as it does, or why its super important that bombs can't drop in a space vacuum (whilst ignoring that sound travels all the heck over the place and ships need to bank to turn) Accept that it's a Lord of the Rings style epic in outer space. The new trilogy still falls short of GREAT fantasy on that front... but its still more enjoyable than if you're going into it hoping for a canonical explanation as to how exactly a light saber functions. The only important answer is 'its a laser sword' and functions as a knights sword which is all that matters in a story that isn't about science.

Side note: For people that NEED an explanation: the bombs dropped because there was artificial gravity in the ship when they were released, and they maintained their momentum when they exited the field... not that hard to explain. (And gravity shields have ALWAYS existed in star wars, which keep air and gravity in but ships and organics can pass through, so don't start taking exception to it NOW just because TLJ fell short of all our expectations. Dislike it for the reasons it deserves to be disliked for, not the nitpicks we only notice because we don't like it)

[Void]

Yeah, I have to agree with Tally. I actually enjoyed the film - it was an entertaining film to watch. But, it's a weak story told horrendously. Plot holes and inconsistencies everywhere, shameless efforts to sweep from one set piece to another without caring how the characters get between them or resolve them, shifts in tone that were incredibly jarring. The worst offence was not devoting the time they needed to the whole Luke/Rey/Kylo/Snoke story that was the core of the film and it's one truly redeeming strand. Even 2-5 more minutes of dialogue or exposition would have done a world of good to demonstrate Rey's growth, to show Luke's training, to better explain Luke's whole situation and his motivations, and to give us even a slither of insight into Snoke. Instead we got more time for jokes that often missed, or on Finn and Rose's purposeless journey to doing nothing (actually worse than nothing). 5 more minutes on their core story and I think I would defend the film from the rest of it, but no, who cares about the characters anyways? It's not like there was any pressure to make an effort with Luke Skywalker. Consistent characters are for whiners.

I get the appeal in surprising people and beating their expectations, but these metas exist for a reason, and there's a reason they are broken so rarely. Likewise, I don't buy that you need incompetent villains. This story needed them, sure, but that's one of it's worst issues. Try imagining sitting in the baddie cockpits towards the end of the film, watching Finn dragging Rose back to the goodie base - how hilarious is that picture? There's incompetence, and then there's absence. There was a lot of absence in the film.

On the plus side, I actually really like Rey and Kylo. I'm on board with them as characters and I like their story in spite of how badly it was handled. I even liked Rey's parentage, and hoped they would do as much after I watched Force Awakens. One of the things that stick in people's throats about the prequels was how incestuously everyone was related to eachother in the story - I like that we get a Force Jesus that comes from nowhere, same as Anakin once did. They even gave a subtle attempt at the end of the film to suggest that Rey went a lot deeper into her training than we saw - having stolen and presumably spent time poring over the jedi texts - but it was still a terrible miss not to give us a few minutes of Luke imparting something, anything, to her in terms of wisdom or skill.

[Abductorenmadrid]

I think people need to realize the franchise is NOT for the old fans anymore. Things have to move on. You can't keep serving corn beef hash over and over again. The phoenix has to burn to be reborn. Maybe the 40 something fans need to stop buying action figures and let the 7-15 year olds enjoy something. Time to move on.

Well, I am one of the "old fans", a forty something. I remember as a kid when, luckily for me, my mum worked at a local cinema. In hindsight it was a magical time. Every day my mum would collect me from school, take me to her work place and then get going, tidying up litter, restocking the shop with drinks and so on. I would help, for random small change which the boss would put in my own little pay packet. And then .... STAR WARS! I watched the theatrical release about 20 times by my mum's reckoning, two full showings back to back each week day plus the first reel of the third before mum finished up her shift. I practically knew it word for word.

This was an era when Close Encounters of the Third Kind was also out, and again I watched that plenty. I was always mesmerized by the little boy being taken by the aliens from the house, the man fascinated by his mash potato and so many other set pieces. Then there was Grease! OMG, I didn't get it, being quite young, why this odd film with all the singing was popular, but it was. Star Wars was always a "full house" but Grease packed the house to the extreme whenever I was there and the passageways between the end of the rows had big plastic drink crates being used for extra seating. It was probably a deathtrap if there was a fire but ... those were the times.

Anyway, back to Star Wars and like I posted above I've been happy to rethink on things and accept the last two films, especially The Last Jedi which is growing on me the more I think about it. Interestingly the English language perspective of that film's subtitle is subtly misleading, but that is something else. As for action figures? I don't think I ever bought any though I was gifted some cool DK Star Wars books about the ships and the universe in general which are kind of nerdy, but hey, I like them. But anyway, I think I will hang around and continue to enjoy the franchise, I'm not moving on.