She-Hulk (Disney +, 2021)

Avengers, Batman, Superman, etc Discussion about comic mainstream movies and TV shows.
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Dogfish
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Welp, saw the first episode. They had a lot to cram in there story-wise because they presumably didn't want to pay Mark Ruffalo to be around for too much of it. Was okay though.

There's a bunch of very silly debates going around about the design of the character. Seems fine to me, but some people's masturbatory plans seem to be in ruins.

I expect now most of the explanatory stuff is out of the way the show can start doing its thing.

The post credits scene was the best post credits scene I've seen in a minute too. Wasn't like, "HERE IS THE PLOT OF THE NEXT THING YOU HAVE TO WATCH" it was just very funny.
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Mr. X
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Its a sitcom so it has to settle into its groove. It is what it is.
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Dogfish wrote:
1 year ago
Welp, saw the first episode. They had a lot to cram in there story-wise because they presumably didn't want to pay Mark Ruffalo to be around for too much of it. Was okay though.
There's a bunch of very silly debates going around about the design of the character. Seems fine to me, but some people's masturbatory plans seem to be in ruins.
I expect now most of the explanatory stuff is out of the way the show can start doing its thing.
On the contrary, not only aren't those plans ruined, but I imagine they will magnify across the land. Transformations will flourish on TikTok. Cosplayers will now suddenly proliferate to portray a character they formerly considered too difficult or too C-list to bother with. And the She-Hulk transformation fetish vids on C4S will multiply, and hopefully get better in quality. Maybe we'll even get a couple new Forum members out of it.

Everything about this show involves 'doubling down' - i.e. constantly reminding the viewers of the message being sent. They're going to do whatever they can to tamp down any fan service. Notice that Jen's clothes don't rip apart at any point during the expository segment. The blouse is still on, no buttons popped. The Led Zeppelin T-shirt reminds entirely intact. Also notice that there is no "shripping" (foley sound of clothes ripping and tearing). Even the attorney business suit in the courtroom battle should have been shredded a lot more than it was. It's obvious they don't want to cater to that.

'Character design' is fine. It's the uncanny valley CGI face which is the problem. People will have to get used to it. I've got more of a problem with the costume designs so far. Titania, for example, looks terrible. We'll have to see if the She-Hulk spandex outfit looks alright.

Everyone knew what this was going to be, because we knew where the MCU's mood is at in Phase 4. We'll just have to make the best of it. The good news is that it's going to raise overall interest in superheroines. Hopefully a rising tide lifts all boats.

P.S. I don't think that the two original She-Hulk runs (Savage or Sensational) ever had a single mean-spirited catcalling or harrassment scene, but correct me if I'm wrong. What it did have, however, was an issue where She-Hulk is bothered by paparazzi photographers in a helicopter while she is sunbathing in full sexy form on the top of a building, and she basically destroys their aircraft. The producers would be very savvy indeed if they had enough moxie to crib that scene.
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Mr. X
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We, in this fetish, have not gotten anything "fappy" in the mainstream in the last 30 years so I wouldn't hold my breath. I can't think of a single mainstream super heroine character I would do a parody of. Even the CGI version of her is more boney than voluptuous. She looks like a female basketball player with 1960s hair. But to each their own. I personally want fights and we probably won't get a lot of those. The Titania fight was real short.
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Still the Greatest Joke ever.

Of all time
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Mr. X
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Yet this is fine.
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I wonder if these people say this stuff cause they truly believe it or cause they have to kiss the ring to stay in the game.
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tallyho
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Dogfish wrote:
1 year ago

There's a bunch of very silly debates going around about the design of the character. Seems fine to me, but some people's masturbatory plans seem to be in ruins.
I've never had a 'masturbatory plan' and now I feel I've been missing out
I was always a 'veni, vidi, wanky' kinda guy.

I know nothing about the character so will give it a watch when I get chance.
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sugarcoater
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Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
tatiana1.jpg
Yet this is fine.
tatiana2.jpg

I wonder if these people say this stuff cause they truly believe it or cause they have to kiss the ring to stay in the game.
My guess is yes. This show will undoubtedly have a number of woke messages to spread. I think it's disheartening that our society--apparently too lazy or busy pursuing more pleasurable desires--eschews exercising in favor of pretending being overweight is just fine and focusing on the inane body positivity movement. No logical person would go out of their way to mock someone for being overweight, but the movement towards celebrating obesity and ignoring all the negative health factors for fear of shaming someone is worse (in my opinion).

I was optimistic in hoping the show would be entertaining and engaging, but I fear it will be annoying and preachy to the point where the humor is muted by irritation and eye-rolling.
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shevek
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sugarcoater wrote:
1 year ago
I was optimistic in hoping the show would be entertaining and engaging, but I fear it will be annoying and preachy to the point where the humor is muted by irritation and eye-rolling.
Missed opportunities for hilarious soundtrack music!

I say let us put Hulk and a She-Hulk together
To find out which one is smarter
Some say Hulk but I say no
She-Hulk got the Hulk beat they should know
And not me but the people they say
That the Hulk is leading the She-Hulk astray
But I say, that the She-Hulk of today
Smarter than the Hulk in every way
That's right de She-Hulk is uh smarter
That's right de She-Hulk is uh smarter
That's right de She-Hulk is uh smarter, that's right, that's right

----------------------------

And now little lady, if you'll kindly step up to the promontory
I'll give you a lesson in Hulksmanship

You couldn't give me a lesson in long distance boulder throwin'

Any rock you can throw, Hulk can throw farther
Hulk can throw any rock farther than you

No, you can't
Yes, I can
No, you can't
Yes, I can
No, you can't
Yes, I can
Yes, I can

Anything you can smash, Hulk can smash greater
Sooner or later I'm greater than you

No, you're not
Yes, I am
No, you're not
Yes, I am
No, you're not
Yes, I am, yes I am

Bruce: I can knit a sweater
Jen: I can fill it better
Last edited by shevek 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
Damselbinder

Yes.

Hilarious.
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Femina
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sugarcoater wrote:
1 year ago
Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
tatiana1.jpg
Yet this is fine.
tatiana2.jpg

I wonder if these people say this stuff cause they truly believe it or cause they have to kiss the ring to stay in the game.
My guess is yes. This show will undoubtedly have a number of woke messages to spread. I think it's disheartening that our society--apparently too lazy or busy pursuing more pleasurable desires--eschews exercising in favor of pretending being overweight is just fine and focusing on the inane body positivity movement. No logical person would go out of their way to mock someone for being overweight, but the movement towards celebrating obesity and ignoring all the negative health factors for fear of shaming someone is worse (in my opinion).

I was optimistic in hoping the show would be entertaining and engaging, but I fear it will be annoying and preachy to the point where the humor is muted by irritation and eye-rolling.
To start, There's a GREAT irony here in that we're talking about people being too busy perusing more pleasurable desires instead of perusing physical excellence... ON a fetish website focused around the sexual objectification of powerful, physically fit, women and then pointing at folks who aren't physically fit and pushing for them to become physically fit. I'm not accusing or arguing, I am just stating, I am here on this website myself afterall.

I can say this much, if my fitness trainer told me he likes to fap to fit women I'd quit going to his gym. On some level you know 'of course he does, why wouldn't he?' but there's a difference between knowing that a man faps to fit women... and being a fit woman and realizing 'he's fapping at ME.' Actors and Actresses are in that delegation of people who realize that there's people fapping about them. Some can handle that, some would rather not think about it, some are going to be smart enough to ponder about 'why' this is and wonder about where boundaries ought to or ought not exist in that relationship with the public and they're allowed to voice their opinions on it if they so wish without being point blank accused of corporate servitude... that's just cancel culture for you though I guess.

Unfortunately I consider the bulk of what you're talking about to be a result of the depression of the human race. The less opportunity the vast majority possess, the less motivation the vast majority have to DO much of anything about it because the vast majority have no power to do anything about regardless of how hard they work for it. In America at least, the 99% are in terminal depression. It's well and good to say 'you should just go out and exercise!' to some overweight lady declaring she's fine with her body as it is but doesn't seem to ACTUALLY be happy... but depression doesn't give two shits about facts and logic, that's the whole insidious mechanism behind depression, your ability to BE logical is depressed. To be clear I DONT like to see when women who are fit, healthy, traditionally pretty etc. get a bunch of jealous negative buzz because of that if maintaining their body is what they WANT to do either... but it is definitively not wrong at all for an actress to speak out if the conditions she's working in aren't ideal. There's such a thing as being TOO fit (Arnold on steroids I'm looking at you) and there's such a thing as feeling like you don't have to slave your life away in pursuit of the public's masturbatory ideal so that we can salivate over fresh injections of phonography of her because let's take a moment to be COMPLETELY real about the actual complaint any of us have about the She-Hulk's statement on THIS website.

Here, on the fetish site about objectifying physically fit women, we are naturally inclined to be opposed to the outlook that women don't have to all be physical specimens, and consider it a threat to the fetish when there are fewer physical 'Adoni' gracing our computer screens....

We have to accept that no one owes us the pleasure of masturbating at their bodies if they aren't comfortable with it, and nobody under contract to be masturbatory materiel has to be HAPPY about it. No judgments, we're human beings, we by and large need masturbation material so the human race doesn't lose its collective shit ALL THE TIME... but while we ought all be free to consume masturbation material at our whim, we ought equally be free to voice our opinions about it, and if in the position, to voice our frustrations about it when we find ourselves to BE said material.

In short... I see nothing wrong here with anything she said.
ivandobsky
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I don't really get the comments from the lead actor about "going to the gym 1000 times a week". I get that there's an expectation for men to be ripped in this kind of film, but a jacked she-hulk goes more against the "societal expectations" thing than one with a more regular physique.

Also, visiting the gym 1000 times a week is overtraining and will actually hurt your gains.
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Femina
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ivandobsky wrote:
1 year ago
I don't really get the comments from the lead actor about "going to the gym 1000 times a week". I get that there's an expectation for men to be ripped in this kind of film, but a jacked she-hulk goes more against the "societal expectations" thing than one with a more regular physique.

Also, visiting the gym 1000 times a week is overtraining and will actually hurt your gains.
She's obviously paraphrasing. She probably goes to the gym 2-3 times a day during an 8-12 hour 'work period'

It's like when you go "I feel like I just ate 100 Ice Cream Cones I'm gonna go puke!"
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Femina wrote:
1 year ago
It's like when you go "I feel like I just ate 100 Ice Cream Cones I'm gonna go puke!"
Thanks for explaining. Now that I think about it, 1000 times a week is almost once per 10 minutes, which doesn't leave much time for reps after getting changed, having a shower.
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Femina wrote:
1 year ago
In short... I see nothing wrong here with anything she said.
I respect your opinion, but to me, what Maslany says doesn't make any sense, as Mr. X proved completely with his comparisons between what the current display of women's superheroic bodies looks like, compared to the men's.

It doesn't matter if she thinks going to the gym 1000 times a week is unrealistic, because

1) As an actress, she doesn't have to go the gym. She just has to be reasonably fit enough to play Jen, and then the CGI guys do all the work to
make her look super-jacked and hot as She-Hulk. She's not even the real 'hero' here per se, the computer jockeys are, behind the scenes. Without
them, the hotness of She-Hulk would simply not exist! (unless they cast a second actress, such as a pro wrestler, as She-Hulk - see #2)

2) There's nothing about superhero stories that really needs to be 'realistic', Marvel's "the world outside your window" chestnut notwithstanding.
If all of your stories take place in a gritty back alley in New York, maybe. But that hasn't been the tone of almost any Marvel production anyway, since the days of Daredevil and Jessica Jones.

Sakaaran spaceships don't appear outside your window, and neither do gamma-irradiating devices. So it's perfectly fine to display an 'unrealistic'
version of a woman's body, like the CGI-'d She-Hulk. They've done it for decades in comics, TV shows and movies. Because it's a fantasy, not reality.
And furthermore, it's not even true that her shape is *that* unrealistic: you can find dozens of women in current wresting leagues wearing spandex
and looking more or less like a jacked-up superheroine. Just because Maslany doesn't look like that doesn't invalidate these professional women wrestlers' right to be muscular *and* sexy. Have you seen Pittsburgh's own Britt Baker? She is a powerhouse, by any measure, and could have easily played She-Hulk.

3) What Mr. X showed to be the new-ish double standard in mainstream entertainment. Fan service for male heroes is welcomed and encouraged, while fan service for female heroes is not. I stress again - this is something new, and frankly this is almost a religious doctrine akin to fundamentalist beliefs in Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and probably East Asian traditions, too. The only difference between this new ideology and the old religions is that there is a 'libertine' component - for example, females are allowed to swear like sailors, have sex with whomever they want on a whim, and display their assets off to other females for mutual admiration and support (for example, when the women offer Jen makeup in the bar bathroom, or compliment her on her amazing ass). But the men are no longer allowed to do that. If Bruce told Jen her body looks amazing as She-Hulk, he'd be excoriated as sexist (even though the statement is 100% factual, and he even recommended the spandex) whereas if her paralegal Nikki does it, it's empowering. Capeesh?

Plus - and this one is more directed to Femina about what happens on this Forum - our lovely Forum is not just about admiring powerful women's bodies. It's about THREE aspects, split in more or less equal measure: 1) Power (also known as 'Girl Power'), 2) Peril (SHIP, or DID) and 3) Sex (aka 'porn'). The best superheroine fetish productions, at least IMHO, display all three aspects in more or less equal measure, which covers all the fanbases. We are lucky on this forum to be able to discuss all three, because there are other forums (which I shall not name) which ban you if you try to bring up #2 or #3, or both. Thus, we can discuss how much raw power She-Hulk displays in her spandex costume or using her abilities, but also how much peril she gets into, and whether she has orgasms or how sexy she is in general. All three are valid discussion topics to be addressed.

Given that there is such a double standard in current mainstream productions, I would say that the opportunities for #2 and #3 are very much tamped down compared to previous eras, and that in general, today's postmodern producers are looking for ways to eliminate all possible fan service, aka moments of 'fappability'. They might not totally succeed (quite a few occurred in the Supergirl series, anyway), but even if they do, so what?

That just allows independent producers to move more strongly into that space. Personally, I can't wait for the fetish producers to unleash a new wave of She-Hulk transformations, clothes-shripping, muscular power displays, and tight costume exertion that will gradually improve in quality, given the growing niche demand. It's the same principle as the current indie comics explosion (the largest in industry history, in terms of sheer sales) - whatever the hardcore fans aren't getting from the Big 2, they'll look elsewhere for, and that goes for fetish, as well as art and storylines and politics, and so on. Eric July calls it the "parallel economy".

As I've said, I just tell anyone who has trouble sitting through the She-Hulk episodes without continuously cringing every few minutes, to try out Darna, from a country that still has its superheroine aesthetics firmly grounded in the equivalent of the American 70s and 80s. There's something for everyone, thanks to the Internet!
Last edited by shevek 1 year ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Femina
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shevek wrote:
1 year ago
Femina wrote:
1 year ago
In short... I see nothing wrong here with anything she said.
I respect your opinion, but to me, what Maslany says doesn't make any sense, as Mr. X proved completely with his comparisons between what the current display of women's superheroic bodies looks like, compared to the men's.

It doesn't matter if she thinks going to the gym 1000 times a week is unrealistic, because

1) As an actress, she doesn't have to go the gym. She just has to be reasonably fit enough to play Jen, and then the CGI guys do all the work to
make her look super-jacked and hot as She-Hulk. She's not even the real 'hero' here per se, the computer jockeys are, behind the scenes. Without
them, the hotness of She-Hulk would simply not exist! (unless they cast a second actress, such as a pro wrestler, as She-Hulk - see #2)

2) There's nothing about superhero stories that really needs to be 'realistic', Marvel's "the world outside your window" chestnut notwithstanding.
If all of your stories take place in a gritty back alley in New York, maybe. But that hasn't been the tone of almost any Marvel production anyway, since the days of Daredevil and Jessica Jones.

Sakaaran spaceships don't appear outside your window, and neither do gamma-irradiating devices. So it's perfectly fine to display an 'unrealistic'
version of a woman's body, like the CGI-'d She-Hulk. They've done it for decades in comics, TV shows and movies. Because it's a fantasy, not reality.
And furthermore, it's not even true that her shape is *that* unrealistic: you can find dozens of women in current wresting leagues wearing spandex
and looking more or less like a jacked-up superheroine. Just because Maslany doesn't look like that doesn't invalidate these professional women wrestlers' right to be muscular *and* sexy. Have you seen Pittsburgh's own Britt Baker? She is a powerhouse, by any measure, and could have easily played She-Hulk.

3) What Mr. X showed to be the new-ish double standard in mainstream entertainment. Fan service for male heroes is welcomed and encouraged, while fan service for female heroes is not. I stress again - this is something new, and frankly this is almost a religious doctrine akin to fundamentalist beliefs in Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and probably East Asian traditions, too. The only difference between this new ideology and the old religions is that there is a 'libertine' component - for example, females are allowed to swear like sailors, have sex with whomever they want on a whim, and display their assets off to other females for mutual admiration and support (for example, when the women offer Jen makeup in the bar bathroom, or compliment her on her amazing ass). But the men are no longer allowed to do that. If Bruce told Jen her body looks amazing as She-Hulk, he'd be excoriated as sexist (even though the statement is 100% factual, and he even recommended the spandex) whereas if her paralegal Nikki does it, it's empowering. Capeesh?

Plus - and this one is more directed to Femina about what happens on this Forum - our lovely Forum is not just about admiring powerful women's bodies. It's about THREE aspects, split in more or less equal measure: 1) Power (also known as 'Girl Power'), 2) Peril (SHIP, or DID) and 3) Sex (aka 'porn'). The best superheroine fetish productions, at least IMHO, display all three aspects in more or less equal measure, which covers all the fanbases. We are lucky on this forum to be able to discuss all three, because there are other forums (which I shall not name) which ban you if you try to bring up #2 or #3, or both. Thus, we can discuss how much raw power She-Hulk displays in her spandex costume or using her abilities, but also how much peril she gets into, and whether she has orgasms or how sexy she is in general. All three are valid discussion topics to be addressed.

Given that there is such a double standard in current mainstream productions, I would say that the opportunities for #2 and #3 are very much tamped down compared to previous eras, and that in general, today's postmodern producers are looking for ways to eliminate all possible fan service, aka moments of 'fappability'. They might not totally succeed (quite a few occurred in the Supergirl series, anyway), but even if they do, so what?

That just allows independent producers to move more strongly into that space. Personally, I can't wait for the fetish producers to unleash a new wave of She-Hulk transformations, clothes-shripping, muscular power displays, and tight costume exertion that will gradually improve in quality, given the growing niche demand. It's the same principle as the current indie comics explosion (the largest in industry history, in terms of sheer sales) - whatever the hardcore fans aren't getting from the Big 2, they'll look elsewhere for, and that goes for fetish, as well as art and storylines and politics, and so on.

As I've said, I just tell anyone who has trouble sitting through the She-Hulk episodes without continuously cringing every few minutes, to try out Darna, from a country that still has its superheroine aesthetics firmly grounded in the equivalent of the American 70s and 80s. There's something for everyone, thanks to the Internet!
I don't have any skin in this race. I respect that she's being employed and thus under contract. There's a difference between speaking out that you're concerned with the kinds of expectations you're under for your job vs REFUSING to do it while you're under contract no? It isn't like she hasn't been going to the gym as per her agreement. My only point above is that nobody OWES us anything, and that there's an irony in seeking what we're aroused by... and like... pushing people to conform to what we're aroused by. We don't have a leg to stand in in how anyone ought to be presenting themselves to us. IF they want to be fit, and it happens to conform to what arouses us, that's that... but we don't get to bitch and complain if someone DOESNT conform to what arouses us. They don't OWE us masturbation material.
ivandobsky
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Generally the vibe is that people wish that things were sexier, but I don't think anyone said anything about being "owed" anything.
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sugarcoater
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Femina wrote:
1 year ago
sugarcoater wrote:
1 year ago
Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago
tatiana1.jpg
Yet this is fine.
tatiana2.jpg

I wonder if these people say this stuff cause they truly believe it or cause they have to kiss the ring to stay in the game.
My guess is yes. This show will undoubtedly have a number of woke messages to spread. I think it's disheartening that our society--apparently too lazy or busy pursuing more pleasurable desires--eschews exercising in favor of pretending being overweight is just fine and focusing on the inane body positivity movement. No logical person would go out of their way to mock someone for being overweight, but the movement towards celebrating obesity and ignoring all the negative health factors for fear of shaming someone is worse (in my opinion).

I was optimistic in hoping the show would be entertaining and engaging, but I fear it will be annoying and preachy to the point where the humor is muted by irritation and eye-rolling.
To start, There's a GREAT irony here in that we're talking about people being too busy perusing more pleasurable desires instead of perusing physical excellence... ON a fetish website focused around the sexual objectification of powerful, physically fit, women and then pointing at folks who aren't physically fit and pushing for them to become physically fit. I'm not accusing or arguing, I am just stating, I am here on this website myself afterall.

I can say this much, if my fitness trainer told me he likes to fap to fit women I'd quit going to his gym. On some level you know 'of course he does, why wouldn't he?' but there's a difference between knowing that a man faps to fit women... and being a fit woman and realizing 'he's fapping at ME.' Actors and Actresses are in that delegation of people who realize that there's people fapping about them. Some can handle that, some would rather not think about it, some are going to be smart enough to ponder about 'why' this is and wonder about where boundaries ought to or ought not exist in that relationship with the public and they're allowed to voice their opinions on it if they so wish without being point blank accused of corporate servitude... that's just cancel culture for you though I guess.

Unfortunately I consider the bulk of what you're talking about to be a result of the depression of the human race. The less opportunity the vast majority possess, the less motivation the vast majority have to DO much of anything about it because the vast majority have no power to do anything about regardless of how hard they work for it. In America at least, the 99% are in terminal depression. It's well and good to say 'you should just go out and exercise!' to some overweight lady declaring she's fine with her body as it is but doesn't seem to ACTUALLY be happy... but depression doesn't give two shits about facts and logic, that's the whole insidious mechanism behind depression, your ability to BE logical is depressed. To be clear I DONT like to see when women who are fit, healthy, traditionally pretty etc. get a bunch of jealous negative buzz because of that if maintaining their body is what they WANT to do either... but it is definitively not wrong at all for an actress to speak out if the conditions she's working in aren't ideal. There's such a thing as being TOO fit (Arnold on steroids I'm looking at you) and there's such a thing as feeling like you don't have to slave your life away in pursuit of the public's masturbatory ideal so that we can salivate over fresh injections of phonography of her because let's take a moment to be COMPLETELY real about the actual complaint any of us have about the She-Hulk's statement on THIS website.

Here, on the fetish site about objectifying physically fit women, we are naturally inclined to be opposed to the outlook that women don't have to all be physical specimens, and consider it a threat to the fetish when there are fewer physical 'Adoni' gracing our computer screens....

We have to accept that no one owes us the pleasure of masturbating at their bodies if they aren't comfortable with it, and nobody under contract to be masturbatory materiel has to be HAPPY about it. No judgments, we're human beings, we by and large need masturbation material so the human race doesn't lose its collective shit ALL THE TIME... but while we ought all be free to consume masturbation material at our whim, we ought equally be free to voice our opinions about it, and if in the position, to voice our frustrations about it when we find ourselves to BE said material.

In short... I see nothing wrong here with anything she said.
When did "fap" become a word? Never heard it before reading it here. Just an observation for myself. Odd word for the act.

Anyhow, as for the irony in my recent post, I don't see it. There's a difference between--as I wrote--"pursuing more pleasurable desires" and finding someone attractive. I'll put the blame squarely on myself for not giving specific examples by what I meant. My bad. But to elaborate, I see pursuing more pleasurable desires as going out for fast food instead of eating healthy, going out for beers instead of going to the gym, watching TV for hours instead of taking a walk, etc. And before someone suggests I'm against the occasional fast food, beer or TV time, I'm focusing on the pursuit of those pleasurable desires at the expense of the healthier pursuits. Moderation is key, with the challenge of being honest about what proper moderation means.

So no, I don't see any irony in what I posted. I like seeing fit people; I think an unhealthy lifestyle leading to obesity is a bad path. People are welcome to pursue whatever life path they want, but I do have concerns when one of the most basic signs of an unhealthy life path is suddenly praised as "body positivity" and criticism of such an outcome--morbid obesity--is referenced as body shaming. Seeing as how so many deaths are caused by obesity and poor diets, seems like society might want to address the matter in a logical manner. But instead, we now have cards a patient can give to their doctor requesting the doctor not weigh them because they are self-conscious.
Ignore any virtue-signaling; it's clearly just you.

Ignore any activism; it clearly doesn't exist.

Be very careful!
Don't be indoctrinated!
Ignore your common sense!

Everything is entirely normal and ignore the radical changes to culture.
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sugarcoater
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shevek wrote:
1 year ago
Femina wrote:
1 year ago
In short... I see nothing wrong here with anything she said.
I respect your opinion, but to me, what Maslany says doesn't make any sense, as Mr. X proved completely with his comparisons between what the current display of women's superheroic bodies looks like, compared to the men's.

It doesn't matter if she thinks going to the gym 1000 times a week is unrealistic, because

1) As an actress, she doesn't have to go the gym. She just has to be reasonably fit enough to play Jen, and then the CGI guys do all the work to
make her look super-jacked and hot as She-Hulk. She's not even the real 'hero' here per se, the computer jockeys are, behind the scenes. Without
them, the hotness of She-Hulk would simply not exist! (unless they cast a second actress, such as a pro wrestler, as She-Hulk - see #2)

2) There's nothing about superhero stories that really needs to be 'realistic', Marvel's "the world outside your window" chestnut notwithstanding.
If all of your stories take place in a gritty back alley in New York, maybe. But that hasn't been the tone of almost any Marvel production anyway, since the days of Daredevil and Jessica Jones.

Sakaaran spaceships don't appear outside your window, and neither do gamma-irradiating devices. So it's perfectly fine to display an 'unrealistic'
version of a woman's body, like the CGI-'d She-Hulk. They've done it for decades in comics, TV shows and movies. Because it's a fantasy, not reality.
And furthermore, it's not even true that her shape is *that* unrealistic: you can find dozens of women in current wresting leagues wearing spandex
and looking more or less like a jacked-up superheroine. Just because Maslany doesn't look like that doesn't invalidate these professional women wrestlers' right to be muscular *and* sexy. Have you seen Pittsburgh's own Britt Baker? She is a powerhouse, by any measure, and could have easily played She-Hulk.

3) What Mr. X showed to be the new-ish double standard in mainstream entertainment. Fan service for male heroes is welcomed and encouraged, while fan service for female heroes is not. I stress again - this is something new, and frankly this is almost a religious doctrine akin to fundamentalist beliefs in Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and probably East Asian traditions, too. The only difference between this new ideology and the old religions is that there is a 'libertine' component - for example, females are allowed to swear like sailors, have sex with whomever they want on a whim, and display their assets off to other females for mutual admiration and support (for example, when the women offer Jen makeup in the bar bathroom, or compliment her on her amazing ass). But the men are no longer allowed to do that. If Bruce told Jen her body looks amazing as She-Hulk, he'd be excoriated as sexist (even though the statement is 100% factual, and he even recommended the spandex) whereas if her paralegal Nikki does it, it's empowering. Capeesh?

Plus - and this one is more directed to Femina about what happens on this Forum - our lovely Forum is not just about admiring powerful women's bodies. It's about THREE aspects, split in more or less equal measure: 1) Power (also known as 'Girl Power'), 2) Peril (SHIP, or DID) and 3) Sex (aka 'porn'). The best superheroine fetish productions, at least IMHO, display all three aspects in more or less equal measure, which covers all the fanbases. We are lucky on this forum to be able to discuss all three, because there are other forums (which I shall not name) which ban you if you try to bring up #2 or #3, or both. Thus, we can discuss how much raw power She-Hulk displays in her spandex costume or using her abilities, but also how much peril she gets into, and whether she has orgasms or how sexy she is in general. All three are valid discussion topics to be addressed.

Given that there is such a double standard in current mainstream productions, I would say that the opportunities for #2 and #3 are very much tamped down compared to previous eras, and that in general, today's postmodern producers are looking for ways to eliminate all possible fan service, aka moments of 'fappability'. They might not totally succeed (quite a few occurred in the Supergirl series, anyway), but even if they do, so what?

That just allows independent producers to move more strongly into that space. Personally, I can't wait for the fetish producers to unleash a new wave of She-Hulk transformations, clothes-shripping, muscular power displays, and tight costume exertion that will gradually improve in quality, given the growing niche demand. It's the same principle as the current indie comics explosion (the largest in industry history, in terms of sheer sales) - whatever the hardcore fans aren't getting from the Big 2, they'll look elsewhere for, and that goes for fetish, as well as art and storylines and politics, and so on. Eric July calls it the "parallel economy".

As I've said, I just tell anyone who has trouble sitting through the She-Hulk episodes without continuously cringing every few minutes, to try out Darna, from a country that still has its superheroine aesthetics firmly grounded in the equivalent of the American 70s and 80s. There's something for everyone, thanks to the Internet!
I think you are spot-on Shevek. Good points.
Ignore any virtue-signaling; it's clearly just you.

Ignore any activism; it clearly doesn't exist.

Be very careful!
Don't be indoctrinated!
Ignore your common sense!

Everything is entirely normal and ignore the radical changes to culture.
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shevek wrote:
1 year ago
Femina wrote:
1 year ago
In short... I see nothing wrong here with anything she said.
I respect your opinion, but to me, what Maslany says doesn't make any sense, as Mr. X proved completely with his comparisons between what the current display of women's superheroic bodies looks like, compared to the men's.

It doesn't matter if she thinks going to the gym 1000 times a week is unrealistic, because

1) As an actress, she doesn't have to go the gym. She just has to be reasonably fit enough to play Jen, and then the CGI guys do all the work to
make her look super-jacked and hot as She-Hulk. She's not even the real 'hero' here per se, the computer jockeys are, behind the scenes. Without
them, the hotness of She-Hulk would simply not exist! (unless they cast a second actress, such as a pro wrestler, as She-Hulk - see #2)

2) There's nothing about superhero stories that really needs to be 'realistic', Marvel's "the world outside your window" chestnut notwithstanding.
If all of your stories take place in a gritty back alley in New York, maybe. But that hasn't been the tone of almost any Marvel production anyway, since the days of Daredevil and Jessica Jones.

Sakaaran spaceships don't appear outside your window, and neither do gamma-irradiating devices. So it's perfectly fine to display an 'unrealistic'
version of a woman's body, like the CGI-'d She-Hulk. They've done it for decades in comics, TV shows and movies. Because it's a fantasy, not reality.
And furthermore, it's not even true that her shape is *that* unrealistic: you can find dozens of women in current wresting leagues wearing spandex
and looking more or less like a jacked-up superheroine. Just because Maslany doesn't look like that doesn't invalidate these professional women wrestlers' right to be muscular *and* sexy. Have you seen Pittsburgh's own Britt Baker? She is a powerhouse, by any measure, and could have easily played She-Hulk.

3) What Mr. X showed to be the new-ish double standard in mainstream entertainment. Fan service for male heroes is welcomed and encouraged, while fan service for female heroes is not. I stress again - this is something new, and frankly this is almost a religious doctrine akin to fundamentalist beliefs in Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and probably East Asian traditions, too. The only difference between this new ideology and the old religions is that there is a 'libertine' component - for example, females are allowed to swear like sailors, have sex with whomever they want on a whim, and display their assets off to other females for mutual admiration and support (for example, when the women offer Jen makeup in the bar bathroom, or compliment her on her amazing ass). But the men are no longer allowed to do that. If Bruce told Jen her body looks amazing as She-Hulk, he'd be excoriated as sexist (even though the statement is 100% factual, and he even recommended the spandex) whereas if her paralegal Nikki does it, it's empowering. Capeesh?

Plus - and this one is more directed to Femina about what happens on this Forum - our lovely Forum is not just about admiring powerful women's bodies. It's about THREE aspects, split in more or less equal measure: 1) Power (also known as 'Girl Power'), 2) Peril (SHIP, or DID) and 3) Sex (aka 'porn'). The best superheroine fetish productions, at least IMHO, display all three aspects in more or less equal measure, which covers all the fanbases. We are lucky on this forum to be able to discuss all three, because there are other forums (which I shall not name) which ban you if you try to bring up #2 or #3, or both. Thus, we can discuss how much raw power She-Hulk displays in her spandex costume or using her abilities, but also how much peril she gets into, and whether she has orgasms or how sexy she is in general. All three are valid discussion topics to be addressed.

Given that there is such a double standard in current mainstream productions, I would say that the opportunities for #2 and #3 are very much tamped down compared to previous eras, and that in general, today's postmodern producers are looking for ways to eliminate all possible fan service, aka moments of 'fappability'. They might not totally succeed (quite a few occurred in the Supergirl series, anyway), but even if they do, so what?

That just allows independent producers to move more strongly into that space. Personally, I can't wait for the fetish producers to unleash a new wave of She-Hulk transformations, clothes-shripping, muscular power displays, and tight costume exertion that will gradually improve in quality, given the growing niche demand. It's the same principle as the current indie comics explosion (the largest in industry history, in terms of sheer sales) - whatever the hardcore fans aren't getting from the Big 2, they'll look elsewhere for, and that goes for fetish, as well as art and storylines and politics, and so on. Eric July calls it the "parallel economy".

As I've said, I just tell anyone who has trouble sitting through the She-Hulk episodes without continuously cringing every few minutes, to try out Darna, from a country that still has its superheroine aesthetics firmly grounded in the equivalent of the American 70s and 80s. There's something for everyone, thanks to the Internet!
If Bruce told Jen her body looked amazing he'd be excoriated for perving on his cousin.
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shevek wrote:
1 year ago

3) What Mr. X showed to be the new-ish double standard in mainstream entertainment. Fan service for male heroes is welcomed and encouraged, while fan service for female heroes is not. I stress again - this is something new, and frankly this is almost a religious doctrine akin to fundamentalist beliefs in Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and probably East Asian traditions, too. The only difference between this new ideology and the old religions is that there is a 'libertine' component - for example, females are allowed to swear like sailors, have sex with whomever they want on a whim, and display their assets off to other females for mutual admiration and support (for example, when the women offer Jen makeup in the bar bathroom, or compliment her on her amazing ass). But the men are no longer allowed to do that. If Bruce told Jen her body looks amazing as She-Hulk, he'd be excoriated as sexist (even though the statement is 100% factual, and he even recommended the spandex) whereas if her paralegal Nikki does it, it's empowering. Capeesh?
I don't think its new. Nearly every show with an attractive male lead (action show) had shirts off scenes in the past. Kirk, Magnum, Lee Majors, Hulk (though not sure if women liked that), all those barbarian movies (remember sons of Hercules), Supernatural which is over 11 years old now. Not new though I would say more exaggerated now. male shirts off scenes go way back. Heck even the boys have little female fan service while they had the Jensen Ackles shirtless scenes. Even the latest Jack Reacher had some shirts off fan service while the female lead was rather mediocre. heck Henry Cavil walked around for about 20 minutes shirtless in justice league yet people only complained when the camera did a 10 second pan past Gal Godot's booty in leather pants.

Also to add those guys are damaging their bodies getting that tight. That Pakistan comedian who was in The Eternals supposedly used the drug bulk and cut process to get that body he had so quick. Its suspected most of these guys bulk and cut with supplements which damage the heck out of you over time. Burn shakes for bulk and steroids for cut. So those bodies aren't free.

I'm beginning to think now men can't be action leads anymore unless they get cut like that. Unless you're some oldies like in the last Jurassic Park movie (aptly named). maybe we should demand a ban of shirtless scenes... you know.. for exploitation.
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Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago

3) What Mr. X showed to be the new-ish double standard in mainstream entertainment. Fan service for male heroes is welcomed and encouraged, while fan service for female heroes is not.

I don't think its new. Nearly every show with an attractive male lead (action show) had shirts off scenes in the past. Kirk, Magnum, Lee Majors, Hulk (though not sure if women liked that), all those barbarian movies (remember sons of Hercules), Supernatural which is over 11 years old now. Not new though I would say more exaggerated now.
I thought I made myself clear, but I don't mind explaining it again. Yes, the double standard *is* new to the Current Era (post-2014)..or you can look at it as an ironic return to the pre-1960s double standard, if you remember that far back. In between, there were about 50 years of libertinism - the longest period of relative cultural liberty since probably Roman times, which coincided with American ascendancy and its subsequent slide into decadence. But that's what we long for.
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shevek wrote:
1 year ago
Mr. X wrote:
1 year ago

3) What Mr. X showed to be the new-ish double standard in mainstream entertainment. Fan service for male heroes is welcomed and encouraged, while fan service for female heroes is not.

I don't think its new. Nearly every show with an attractive male lead (action show) had shirts off scenes in the past. Kirk, Magnum, Lee Majors, Hulk (though not sure if women liked that), all those barbarian movies (remember sons of Hercules), Supernatural which is over 11 years old now. Not new though I would say more exaggerated now.
I thought I made myself clear, but I don't mind explaining it again. Yes, the double standard *is* new to the Current Era (post-2014)..or you can look at it as an ironic return to the pre-1960s double standard, if you remember that far back. In between, there were about 50 years of libertinism - the longest period of relative cultural liberty since probably Roman times, which coincided with American ascendancy and its subsequent slide into decadence. But that's what we long for.

True its NOW a double standard cause in that same era as Magnum and other shows we'd get the Loni Andersons or Bay Watch girls or bikini babes etc. Pretty even.
Damselbinder

Would you two stop lamenting the fall of Western civilisation on a forum for perverts with a superheroine fetish...


...for TEN MINUTES?
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I want to see an HBO Max version of She-Hulk.....in a scene like Game of Thrones or House of Dragons orgy....let's do it!!!!
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For a little fun:
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Danorian wrote:
1 year ago
For a little fun:
OMG!!! 😂 Hilarious!!! Plus what a hot outfit, a leather dominatrix She-hulk!!! What a kinky skit
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The second episode didn't really do much so I'm getting the feeling this one will be better watched all in one sitting. You can have fairly bland plot heavy episodes in a binge, but as a week to week it's not that interesting.
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batgirl1969 wrote:
1 year ago
Danorian wrote:
1 year ago
For a little fun:
OMG!!! 😂 Hilarious!!! Plus what a hot outfit, a leather dominatrix She-hulk!!! What a kinky skit
They don’t make TV like that anymore.
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Damselbinder

sneakly wrote:
1 year ago
batgirl1969 wrote:
1 year ago
Danorian wrote:
1 year ago
For a little fun:
OMG!!! 😂 Hilarious!!! Plus what a hot outfit, a leather dominatrix She-hulk!!! What a kinky skit
They don’t make TV like that anymore.
There are times when I regret not living in an earlier age.

And then I see something like this, and I count my lucky fucking stars.
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This has got to be one of the greatest paradoxes of this generation:

Women wearing revealing clothes in public = "women should be allowed wear what they're comfortable with" => GOOD


Women wearing revealing clothes in movies = "exploitation of women in media" => BAD

:no:
Check out my superheroine-related short stories here:

https://archiveofourown.org/users/brdiy/works
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Benny Hill Show:
Must be sexist since it features scantily clad women.

From the extra features on the DVDs - Actresses on the show point out that the men usually are the butt of jokes in the sketches and lose out instead of the women. They thought the show was very pro-women.
Damselbinder

Visitor wrote:
1 year ago
Benny Hill Show:
Must be sexist since it features scantily clad women.

From the extra features on the DVDs - Actresses on the show point out that the men usually are the butt of jokes in the sketches and lose out instead of the women. They thought the show was very pro-women.
Sexist schmexist. It's crass and stupid.
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It's 40 years old and was of its time
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tallyho wrote:
1 year ago
It's 40 years old and was of its time
That is no excuse.
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Damselbinder wrote:
1 year ago
tallyho wrote:
1 year ago
It's 40 years old and was of its time
That is no excuse.
Benny Hill is still highly regarded in Britain. Off camera he was supposedly an absolute gentleman and was very protective of the women on the show.

If you read about a lot of what was going on in show biz in that same era, it was pretty toxic. Yes, it was juvenile, base humor, but it was what it was. Female characters were often nameless eye candy. Think of the Molls on Batman, the guest damsels on virtually every show, Charlie’s Angels, Bay Watch, WW, Daisy Duke…. My mother, a biochemist and staunch feminist watched Benny Hill too.
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That was back in the day before the internet. People who wanted sexy content watched TV. It would be nice to live in a time with sexy things on TV, but it's also nice to live in a time with the internet.
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sneakly wrote:
1 year ago
Damselbinder wrote:
1 year ago
tallyho wrote:
1 year ago
It's 40 years old and was of its time
That is no excuse.
Benny Hill is still highly regarded in Britain. Off camera he was supposedly an absolute gentleman and was very protective of the women on the show.

If you read about a lot of what was going on in show biz in that same era, it was pretty toxic. Yes, it was juvenile, base humor, but it was what it was. Female characters were often nameless eye candy. Think of the Molls on Batman, the guest damsels on virtually every show, Charlie’s Angels, Bay Watch, WW, Daisy Duke…. My mother, a biochemist and staunch feminist watched Benny Hill too.
That's slander. Benny Hill isn't highly regarded. The theme tune is though.

He was a funny guy, and his turn in The Italian Job in particular is pretty great, but that show was grim even at the time.

Given the era it was made I am glad to hear he was a good dude though. So many folks weren't.
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Damselbinder wrote:
1 year ago
tallyho wrote:
1 year ago
It's 40 years old and was of its time
That is no excuse.
That comment smacks of the arrogance and vanity of presentism. Though it is nice to build our ego by looking on the past and casting judgement while being prideful of our own wonderful morality, may we not suffer the same from the pretentious people of the future who would in turn judge us. It's the same mindset that wants to tear down history because great but flawed men did not share our current morality.

Criticizing the environment makes sense, criticizing the product of the environment borders on vanity.
Ignore any virtue-signaling; it's clearly just you.

Ignore any activism; it clearly doesn't exist.

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Ignore your common sense!

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sugarcoater wrote:
1 year ago
Damselbinder wrote:
1 year ago
tallyho wrote:
1 year ago
It's 40 years old and was of its time
That is no excuse.
That comment smacks of the arrogance and vanity of presentism. Though it is nice to build our ego by looking on the past and casting judgement while being prideful of our own wonderful morality, may we not suffer the same from the pretentious people of the future who would in turn judge us. It's the same mindset that wants to tear down history because great but flawed men did not share our current morality.

Criticizing the environment makes sense, criticizing the product of the environment borders on vanity.
There's a lot of truth to this. You can look back to more recent shows like Little Britain, and they're still racist and misogynistic as hell.

Our morality has not improved as much as we'd like to think.

Although it's worth bearing in mind that 'tearing down history' usually just means learning it accurately and removing monuments to men who, even at the standards of the time, were pieces of shit. They just had money and old timey PR.
Damselbinder

sugarcoater wrote:
1 year ago
Damselbinder wrote:
1 year ago
tallyho wrote:
1 year ago
It's 40 years old and was of its time
That is no excuse.
That comment smacks of the arrogance and vanity of presentism. Though it is nice to build our ego by looking on the past and casting judgement while being prideful of our own wonderful morality, may we not suffer the same from the pretentious people of the future who would in turn judge us. It's the same mindset that wants to tear down history because great but flawed men did not share our current morality.

Criticizing the environment makes sense, criticizing the product of the environment borders on vanity.
Well your comment smacks of the arrogance and vanity of jumping to fucking conclusions. Did you not see me say "sexism shmexism"? Indeed - that sort of value judgement on a show that started in the fifties is probably pointless. I just mean it's just... a bad show and not funny. Even the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air took potshots at Benny Hill! I'd appreciate your reading what I actually said before leaping on top of your soap box.

Criticizing the post makes sense, criticizing what you decided to imagine the person had said so that you could cluck your tongue and wag your finger borders on vanity.
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Disney has ruined first Ms.Marvel, now it's the turn of She Hulk, in the comics is a lot of sexy, in this telefilm looks awful.
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PIFFLE I say! PIFFLE!

Good day!
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Dogfish wrote:
1 year ago

That's slander. Benny Hill isn't highly regarded. The theme tune is though.
Utterly wrong I'm afraid

Benny Hill IS highly regarded by those who know his contribution to comedy and it's waaay more than Yakkety Ax.
(The name of the theme tune but not sure of spelling)

He was the first comedian to play multiple roles in the same sketch where he did a Juke Box Jury spoof where he played all four members of the panel and if you think 'so what?' that was in the 50s when such things just weren't done. The famous Morecambe and Wise stripper music breakfast sketch was actually a rip off of a sketch Hill had done 15 years earlier. His ATeam spoof is still funny 40 years later (watch it if you can).
He did a sketch where the TV remote stopped real life. 40 years later Sandler did a film version of the same idea.

Comedians play to their audience . And the audience at the time wasn't very sophisticated. The fact that we are now, or like to think we are, is due to innovations he and his generation made. Little by little things changed. Judging comedy because it was crude or racist 50 years ago is folly.
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A lot of Benny Hill comes from Vaudeville and wartime entertainment. It was very abuse and crude and fast paced. What we remember from movies was a heavily redacted version of humor. Just like modern stand ups, they would rely on going blue. Milton Berle was famous for his dick jokes.
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As entertaining as this discourse has been (and I hold no ill will to anyone over it) we ought to really be speaking of She Hulk, me thinks.
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tallyho wrote:
1 year ago
As entertaining as this discourse has been (and I hold no ill will to anyone over it) we ought to really be speaking of She Hulk, me thinks.
Awww, but we hadn't even gotten to the other abstract elements of discussion... like how the other half of She-Hulk is an action show and should be taking inspiration from the greats of the Action genre, Arny's classics would make for excellent inspiration points. Commando, True Lies! Jen obviously should be a deadpan terminatrix stalking through her scenes with the intense focus only possible from a man who can't actually act!

Or what about how Green she is? We need to broach the zucchini in the room and talk about the Veggie Tales connection! Larry-Boy has to be in one of these episodes!
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We haven't gotten to the suspension of disbelief that Jen can afford two different sizes of designer clothes while still paying off her college student loans.

Spiderman is pretty6 much the only one in the MCEU that worries about money since most of the rest sponge off Stark.
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Visitor wrote:
1 year ago
We haven't gotten to the suspension of disbelief that Jen can afford two different sizes of designer clothes while still paying off her college student loans.

Spiderman is pretty6 much the only one in the MCEU that worries about money since most of the rest sponge off Stark.
True, they all sponge off Stark. Like all the DC heroes sponge off Bruce Wayne. What does Hulk do other than "research"?
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