Cops Are not Bad People and the System is not Corrupt

[Damselbinder]

Given that we've been exchanging arguments tit-for-tat, I think it's fair to say that you and I have been, at least, equally intransigent. Secondly, I would really appreciate it if you would make some effort to engage with the substance of what I'm actually saying. I said: "knowingly using offensive terms makes you an asshole." I also said that I thought you were arguing in good faith. I.E., I know you don't think it's offensive. So we have a range of options here.

1) You recognise that "ALM" is offensive, and you don't care and use it anyway.
2) You don't think that "ALM" is offensive and that's why you're using it.

Whether you're wrong or right, I'm perfectly aware that you fall into camp 2. "A bit of advice buddy," as you would say: actually read people's arguments.

[Femina]

If I were doing that, wouldn't I just be calling you an evil racist and demanding you be fired and all that sort of thing? As far as I can tell I haven't appointed myself the "arbiter" of anything. I have a view and I've been arguing for it. Even if I'm wrong, that's no different to what anyone in any argument does.

Yes, you have a view. Anyone who utters ALM is an asshole, regardless of whether the asshole believes in the BLM. I would say you have moved into arbiter of the PC language police. Awfully judgmental, just like those Republican family values people in the nineties. Two sides of the same coin. I don't think for a minute that you would cyberbully or otherwise harass good and honest hard working people who might utter ALM, but your intransigence on the topic is an example of the attitude of those who actually live in my country who are more militant on the issue who give no quarter and leave no room for the possibility that good and decent people can disagree on the true meaning of words and phrases, people who try to punish others and threaten their livelihoods, attack their character online, "they" demand one either embraces BLM and disavows ALM, or one believes in ALM and is a racist asshole who is against BLM. Oh Damselbinder, the world doesn't work that way my friend, it is not so black and white, right or wrong, good and bad. This whole argument is part of a social media disease designed to pit one entity against another. ALM is just words strung together, words, not actions, words, not the senseless death of an unarmed black man by a bad cop. A bit of advice buddy. Don't sweat the small stuff, harmless words or phrases don't hurt the cause of BLM, not worth calling good people assholes just because they disagree with you about the true meaning of words and phrases. Let us stop weaponizing the English language because good people happen to disagree. What ever happened to let's agree to disagree? Is the judgment and the name calling really necessary?

BWB.

You're ALM is harmless just like t he BLM stance doesn't hold up in most arguments for one pretty notable reason.

That reason being the majority of people professing the innocence of the ALM slogan do so whilst professing that the BLM slogan is all sorts of extremist propagandist. A slogan is more than a slogan if the people saying it are putting more into it than just the words themselves. All Lives Matter as three words slung together are perfectly fine and not at all offensive. All Lives Matters as the sort of 'ignore the BLM movement cause their totally bogus and not really as bad off as they think/want you to think they are' is PLENTY harmful. Words and language are all we have to communicate by, so they have a lot more potential to harm that most people give them credit for.

There's some differentials in the way people are using the terms by and large... but only ALM is being used as a direct REFUTATION of the other. The BLM movement doesn't use the phrase IN RESPONSE to another phrase. It's a phrase used in response to action. ALM is being used to REFUTE the statement of BLM. You most commonly see the ALM slogan crop up as a response to the BLM slogan. the two aren't viewed as equally valid and equally benign.

[Mr. X]

If I were doing that, wouldn't I just be calling you an evil racist and demanding you be fired and all that sort of thing? As far as I can tell I haven't appointed myself the "arbiter" of anything. I have a view and I've been arguing for it. Even if I'm wrong, that's no different to what anyone in any argument does.

Yes, you have a view. Anyone who utters ALM is an asshole, regardless of whether the asshole believes in the BLM. I would say you have moved into arbiter of the PC language police. Awfully judgmental, just like those Republican family values people in the nineties. Two sides of the same coin.

I think they are the same people, maybe different generations but the same people. There is an anthropology concept called co-alpha in which a group of primates in the collective self elect themselves the police of the rest.

To me the people today in antifa and BLM committing violence would have been blowing up abortion clinics and killing abortion doctors in the 1990s or beating up "da gays" for being perverts in the early 2000s. The SJWs today are merely the church ladies of the 1950s measuring skirts and checking how many buttons are buttoned on a blouse.

These people don't change. They are social soccer hooligans. They put on a jersey then hide behind a cause to bully, police and maintain a bourgeoisie superiority. The cause does not matter. All they need is a victim group that can't or won't fight back and a public that will give them that "atta boy" pat on the back as heroes.

They WILL move to the right in the next 5 years. You will see a wave of "see the light" or "red pill" people claiming to be lefties who then swing right. They will then use the right's causes to be righteous and bully the left. Then the psychopaths come in using the cause to damage people and claim they are victims and they can do whatever they want.

Ask yourself, where are the Nazis? When I lived in Eugene in the 1990s I regularly went to Portland and it was a mega lefty haven back then. It only got more so. So why is antifa in Portland at all? where are the Nazis? In fact antifa are causing so much trouble the fed has to come in. Why isn't antifa down in Charlottesville? In fact if racism is so prevalent in the US why aren't blacks all being murdered in places like Alabama or NC or Georgia? Isolated incidences are not an endemic situation.

The cause does not matter, its an excuse. These people are always the same. The upper middle class bourgeoisie bullying the rest to maintain class structure. These are the people we need to shine disinfecting sunlight on, left or right doesn't matter.

[bushwackerbob]

Given that we've been exchanging arguments tit-for-tat, I think it's fair to say that you and I have been, at least, equally intransigent. Secondly, I would really appreciate it if you would make some effort to engage with the substance of what I'm actually saying. I said: "knowingly using offensive terms makes you an asshole." I also said that I thought you were arguing in good faith. I.E., I know you don't think it's offensive. So we have a range of options here.

1) You recognise that "ALM" is offensive, and you don't care and use it anyway.
2) You don't think that "ALM" is offensive and that's why you're using it.

Whether you're wrong or right, I'm perfectly aware that you fall into camp 2. "A bit of advice buddy," as you would say: actually read people's arguments.

I recognize that a lot of people including myself support BLM. I also further recognize that some people who support BLM find ALM offensive. I also further recognize that there are a lot of people who support BLM who do not find the term ALM offensive and find all of this hubub about this word to be a silly argument about language made to make feel people better as though they are furthering the cause of fighting racism. You simply don't have the numbers to cancel ALM, not enough people feel outrage or offense at ALM, that this sounds more like a fake outrage thing. The ALM thing is kind of on a par with the OK sign all of a sudden denoting white power. What nonsense. This is not the N word, this is a social media outrage creation. That is why your alien example also does not hold water either, not enough support for the non offensive term in the general population. In order to properly demonize people for language you simply don't like you need more support from the masses, not just a social media PC culture language police cabal. A lot of times I think people put too much stock in social media as though it represented our world at large which it simply does not and I think a lot of people get distorted views about our country, about our nation's sensibilities based on that too small a sample size due to social media. I would not make too many assumptions based on that sample size. The sunshine is very bright and Morgan Freeman has a wonderful voice.

[Damselbinder]

Okay.

Ooooooooooooooookay.

Let's get down to brass tacks. The slogan "all lives matter" only appeared as a response to "black lives matter." And not as a supplement. As a challenge, or refutation. It doesn't have any independent existence outside of at best trying to blunt and at most trying to shout down and erase, the slogan "black lives matter." You don't need a "PC culture language cabal" to tell you that. Even if no-one were objecting to it, that would still be the history of this slogan.

[Dazzle1]

Sorry if this offends BLM supporters but as a Jew I endure far more racism than African Americans yet we don't organize hate rallies or make demands for special privlieges.

I'd just like to point out that no one is ever going to "win" an argument against someone who will make and defend a statement like this. Best to let Dazzle1 hiss away like a birthday cake sparkler. Trying to blow it out won't work, so you just let it burn down until it stops.

Typical of Woke people starting personal attacks

[bushwackerbob]

You said OK. Am I going to have to report you to the mods for the white power connotations for that ugly word? Nah, I know what you meant by the word, I am not part of the PC language cabal that attaches hidden meanings to words or phrases. Yes, the original entry of ALM in this environment was in refutation of BLM. But does that mean that any person who uses the phrase henceforth is using it to refute or diminish BLM. Um, no. That would require one to have the supernatural ability to look into a person's heart and be able to tell their true motivations. That ability is not within you or your PC language cabal. The sunshine is bright.

[Damselbinder]

Okay, last time I checked, I wasn't part of a cabal. Am I, some random twat who writes fetishy superheroine stories part of a cabal? Am I an ivory tower elite? Do I get regular cabal cheques in the post?

Maybe they've been sending them to my previous address.

[bushwackerbob]

No, you are not part of the ivory tower elite, unlike some of those assholes you seem to enjoy a good back and forth conversation.

[Bert]

You said OK. Am I going to have to report you to the mods for the white power connotations for that ugly word? Nah, I know what you meant by the word, I am not part of the PC language cabal that attaches hidden meanings to words or phrases. Yes, the original entry of ALM in this environment was in refutation of BLM. But does that mean that any person who uses the phrase henceforth is using it to refute or diminish BLM. Um, no. That would require one to have the supernatural ability to look into a person's heart and be able to tell their true motivations. That ability is not within you or your PC language cabal. The sunshine is bright.

That's the third time you've mocked me by taking a quote out of context. I've mostly been sitting out this discussion but enough is enough. The following is a quote from the relevant post:

"No sensible person could disagree with the sentiment that all lives matter. But saying it as a slogan, outside of the BLM movement, is absurd. It's akin to saying "Sunshine is Bright", or "Morgan Freeman has a great voice"."

I believe my intent was quite clear. All lives matter, taken completely on its own merits and divorced from the current BLM movement, is so obvious and innocuous that it's about as meaningful as saying "sunshine is bright". But that is not the context in which "All Lives Matter" is being used. Anyone who uses "All Lives Matter" as a slogan and claims it isn't a refutation, or challenge, or denigration of "Black Lives Matter" is either lying or profoundly ignorant, because that is the reason "All Lives Matter" was coined as a slogan. That is the reason racist president Donald Trump had it scrawled on his campaign bus. In 2020 in the United States of America, "All Lives Matter" is a racist knife in the back to every person of color seeking equality and fairness.

[bushwackerbob]

You said OK. Am I going to have to report you to the mods for the white power connotations for that ugly word? Nah, I know what you meant by the word, I am not part of the PC language cabal that attaches hidden meanings to words or phrases. Yes, the original entry of ALM in this environment was in refutation of BLM. But does that mean that any person who uses the phrase henceforth is using it to refute or diminish BLM. Um, no. That would require one to have the supernatural ability to look into a person's heart and be able to tell their true motivations. That ability is not within you or your PC language cabal. The sunshine is bright.

That's the third time you've mocked me by taking a quote out of context. I've mostly been sitting out this discussion but enough is enough. The following is a quote from the relevant post:

"No sensible person could disagree with the sentiment that all lives matter. But saying it as a slogan, outside of the BLM movement, is absurd. It's akin to saying "Sunshine is Bright", or "Morgan Freeman has a great voice"."

I believe my intent was quite clear. All lives matter, taken completely on its own merits and divorced from the current BLM movement, is so obvious and innocuous that it's about as meaningful as saying "sunshine is bright". But that is not the context in which "All Lives Matter" is being used. Anyone who uses "All Lives Matter" as a slogan and claims it isn't a refutation, or challenge, or denigration of "Black Lives Matter" is either lying or profoundly ignorant, because that is the reason "All Lives Matter" was coined as a slogan. That is the reason racist president Donald Trump had it scrawled on his campaign bus. In 2020 in the United States of America, "All Lives Matter" is a racist knife in the back to every person of color seeking equality and fairness.

First of all, my intent was not to mock you personally, that my intent was to make a larger overall point and mock the idea of that a fairly innocuous statement taken at face value could needlessly ruffle so many feathers. No personal mockery or offense was intended and I apologize that it was taken that way. I will cease using those quotes. To use a term from another subject, global warming, the idea that ALM is offensive to a majority of people is simply not settled science. There are some to whom the phrase is offensive and there are those who support BLM and who do not lose their shit, are not offended, and think the phrase is innocuous. The numbers are simply not there to support this social media PC language police cabal. It's kind of like my OK symbol example, that if scumbag white nationalists use it as a symbol of white power, the OK sign should not be cancelled. That is some screwed up logic if people think we should suddenly cancel a word, phrase, or sign. Fake outrage indeed.

[Mr. X]

Calm down guys. Geez you're making me look reasonable.

[Femina]

I think they are the same people, maybe different generations but the same people. There is an anthropology concept called co-alpha in which a group of primates in the collective self elect themselves the police of the rest.

To me the people today in antifa and BLM committing violence would have been blowing up abortion clinics and killing abortion doctors in the 1990s or beating up "da gays" for being perverts in the early 2000s. The SJWs today are merely the church ladies of the 1950s measuring skirts and checking how many buttons are buttoned on a blouse.

These people don't change. They are social soccer hooligans. They put on a jersey then hide behind a cause to bully, police and maintain a bourgeoisie superiority. The cause does not matter. All they need is a victim group that can't or won't fight back and a public that will give them that "atta boy" pat on the back as heroes.

They WILL move to the right in the next 5 years. You will see a wave of "see the light" or "red pill" people claiming to be lefties who then swing right. They will then use the right's causes to be righteous and bully the left. Then the psychopaths come in using the cause to damage people and claim they are victims and they can do whatever they want.

Ask yourself, where are the Nazis? When I lived in Eugene in the 1990s I regularly went to Portland and it was a mega lefty haven back then. It only got more so. So why is antifa in Portland at all? where are the Nazis? In fact antifa are causing so much trouble the fed has to come in. Why isn't antifa down in Charlottesville? In fact if racism is so prevalent in the US why aren't blacks all being murdered in places like Alabama or NC or Georgia? Isolated incidences are not an endemic situation.

The cause does not matter, its an excuse. These people are always the same. The upper middle class bourgeoisie bullying the rest to maintain class structure. These are the people we need to shine disinfecting sunlight on, left or right doesn't matter.

Oh wow! You've caught us alright! Why just about half a decade ago I was all for The Waaaaaaaall. Just flip flopping back over to BLM here to give you what for! ALM this week, BLM the next. Your suffering is my only nourishment!

xD. Seriously though, you should start a standup routine with an act like that.

You know, for the number of times I hear Antifa bandied around on this website as though their this great eldritch beast... They never seem to do ANYTHING newsworthy... not on CNN, not on Fox, not even anywhere much on the informal Tubersphere... (and I think I'd see them if they were cause 'Boycott Captain Marvel!' videos still crop up often enough in my recommended viewing feed) I must REALLY have my head deep in the sand for knowing ALMOST NOTHING about the threat that this, apparently, enormously dangerous sect of America are presenting to the good decent right wingers of the US of A. So way I see it, Antifa isn't even a large enough entity for them to be a reliable punching bag for FOX NEWS... so even presenting them in the same sentence as the BLM movement seems moderately comical to me... like, I get the idea is to mention them in the same sentence and create a contextual link between the two... but I still find it a laugh riot any time Antifa comes up.

In any case, the BLM and Antifa... movements? (Cripes I wouldn't even call them comparable in the sense that Antifa is more like a 'clan' organization and the BLM movement don't really fall into an 'organization' to speak of since the VAST majority of folks holding signs aren't really 'members' of the actual 'BLM' foundation, it's much more widespread than that at the moment) they've got very little to do with one another except that they both tend to fall on the left side of the political spectrum at variable intervals.

Furthermore, relax, nobody here saying the ALM people are all just NAZI'S!!!!! (Least I haven't noticed any such thing) I know more than a few 'ALM' folks within my OWN FAMILY, whom I wouldn't describe as viewing the BLM movement as a malevolent unified antagonist force... so I'd imagine the majority of them are just sort of all stumbling around unnecessarily in the middle of progress whether they realize it or not. As is so often the case in the facebookers and twitter sphere, you have the select circle of INSTIGATORS who co-opt ALM as a retaliatory phrase and the caption 'the truth that BLM don't want you to know!"... and the social network does the rest.

Remember folks. Vaccines cause autism, so you should choose to die of chicken pox!

[Mr. X]

xD. Seriously though, you should start a standup routine with an act like that.

I said same KINDS of people.

You know, for the number of times I hear Antifa bandied around on this website as though their this great eldritch beast... They never seem to do ANYTHING newsworthy... not on CNN, not on Fox, not even anywhere much on the informal Tubersphere...

Now you get it. The MSM refuses to talk about the violence in Portland. Or the CHOP in Seattle. They won't do their jobs. We KNOW these incidences are occurring so its not a matter of making news out of something that is not there.
And if what you say is true then why isn't the MSM reporting on all those fascist/Nazi attacks going on around the country? Oh wait, there aren't any. WHO is antifa fighting? Where are the Nazis? And I would imagine if the proud boys seized a part of Seattle or set fire to buildings in Portland you'd want to hear about it.

Remember folks. Vaccines cause autism, so you should choose to die of chicken pox!

Jim Carry is a huge leftist and a huge anti-vaxer, same with his wife. Anti-vaxers are all over the spectrum. Perhaps the thing you're looking for is bourgeoisie classism. Remember folks, there are 57 genders. And anti-vaxers aren't setting fire to buildings, beating people, shooting into cars or seizing whole areas of town. If you're a flat earther and just keep to yourself then who cares.

[Femina]

Now you get it. The MSM refuses to talk about the violence in Portland. Or the CHOP in Seattle. They won't do their jobs. We KNOW these incidences are occurring so its not a matter of making news out of something that is not there.
And if what you say is true then why isn't the MSM reporting on all those fascist/Nazi attacks going on around the country? Oh wait, there aren't any. WHO is antifa fighting? Where are the Nazis? And I would imagine if the proud boys seized a part of Seattle or set fire to buildings in Portland you'd want to hear about it.

DO I get it? Cause when NEITHER end of the political spectrum wants to bring up these people as an argument against the other on any kind of consistant basis, it begs the question on if they're a cover up....... or just not that influential overall. It's like the KKK isn't it? People still occasionally TALK about them sure... but they don't exactly strike out for the front page anymore... because they're a much MUCH smaller entity than they used to be... and I hear about the Klan more than I do Antifa (but for what it's worth, I'd expect that even if they were equal sized entities considering the cultural climate)

So you might be misunderstanding me here. I'm not confused about who Antifa is 'battling' and looking for the hard connections of what their doing... Where it comes to the subject of Antifa, I'm still in the phase where I'm wondering why the flat earthers can't understand that gravity doesn't make sense in their model. I know Antifa EXISTS, I know what it is vaguely that they want, and that's IT. Far as I'm concerned at this express moment that means the threat they represent probably isn't very severe... while acknowledging that some personal investigation into the subject may offer up a better perspective. I just find it strange that NEITHER the left NOR the right apparently find them worth paying much mind considering the threat level you'd expect of them as presented from members of this particular forum... aka, the only place I EVER hear about Antifa.

But again, fair is fair. Without some deeper delving which I'm not precisely motivated to waste my time on, I can't COMPLETELY brush off this one.

Jim Carry is a huge leftist and a huge anti-vaxer, same with his wife. Anti-vaxers are all over the spectrum. Perhaps the thing you're looking for is bourgeoisie classism. Remember folks, there are 57 genders. And anti-vaxers aren't setting fire to buildings, beating people, shooting into cars or seizing whole areas of town. If you're a flat earther and just keep to yourself then who cares.

xD sorry, I should have been more clear there. I wasn't indicating that as a right wing jab. Just mocking the social media sphere for what it is. There's every sort on the spectrum drooling all over themselves on social media and accepting as absolute fact whatever Janice from accounting plastered on her facebook page...

Anti-Vaxers may not set fire to buildings, beat or shoot people... but they absolutely push an agenda of death. They work to convince people to refuse life saving medical assistance in exchange for social complacency... far as I'm concerned, whenever an anti-vaxer convinces someone to die of a treatable illness, it's no better than blowing their brains out with a pistol. Same result. If it's God's plan that Billy die of Tuberculosis, then he ain't worth worshiping, and he would have stopped us from finding a treatment. Pushing for others to refuse the treatment on a platform of religion or 'maybe Autism?' is irresponsible as fuck.

Flat Earthers are just silly... but they DON'T just keep to themselves... I hear more from the Flat Earther sphere than I do from Antifa I can promise you that.

[Mr. X]

I just find it strange that NEITHER the left NOR the right apparently find them worth paying much mind considering the threat level you'd expect of them as presented from members of this particular forum... aka, the only place I EVER hear about Antifa.

Then you literally do not read the news. And I NEVER watch Fox news nor visit the website.


“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum – even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there’s free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” - Noam Chomsky

[tallyho]

Okay, last time I checked, I wasn't part of a cabal. Am I, some random twat who writes fetishy superheroine stories part of a cabal?

Did Jim Carey play you in The Cabal Guy?

That's the question.

[Femina]

I just find it strange that NEITHER the left NOR the right apparently find them worth paying much mind considering the threat level you'd expect of them as presented from members of this particular forum... aka, the only place I EVER hear about Antifa.

Then you literally do not read the news. And I NEVER watch Fox news nor visit the website.


“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum – even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there’s free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.” - Noam Chomsky

Yeah well that's just like... you're opinion man. I can't but assure you that I consume the the news, and from variable sources so as to provide myself spectrum enough to come to my own opinions.

So what then, we take Chomsky at his words, your telling me that both the left AND the right are interested in limiting the opinions on Antifa, and so talk about them and their efforts and crimes to a limited degree in the effort to... what? Seems awfully chummy of them, especially when they should make such an easy punching bag for the right to lobby at the left. We aren't talking about a secret government sect here whom it behooves all parties involved to keep mum on, we're talking about an amorphous group of radical activists who target specific things. And the most I EVER hear about it is right here on the forum. Sorry, but it's VERY difficult to therefore take them all to seriously, no matter how much Chomsky may believe my opinion is being swayed. He also gives uneducated louts quotable excuses to believe that educated folk aren't capable of coming to their own opinions.

I'm hearing about the BLM movement from hilltop to hilltop, speaker phoned from every news source imaginable on a consistent basis. That means its important, that it's something sufficiently notable. CNN, Fox News, memes and tubers and social media personalities... it's everywhere, you get celebrities opinions on the matter flushed at you accidentally in sources you weren't even looking for them in.

Antifa? Well... I mean Dazzle sure hates them...

[Damselbinder]

This is where I've got most of my information about antifa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45qqSF0MPHk

I wish people would stop talking about them like they're Al-Qaeda. They're just a bunch of fucking dweebs. By the way -

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ing-antifa

[Femina]

This is where I've got most of my information about antifa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45qqSF0MPHk

I wish people would stop talking about them like they're Al-Qaeda. They're just a bunch of fucking dweebs. By the way -

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ing-antifa

If only we could put Jimmy Neutron in charge of resolving America's racism.

"Thiiiiink. Thiiiiiiiiiink. Thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiink! I've got it! I'll simply send out a continuous subliminal message to reduce the violent and racist tendencies in their primitive monkey brains!" -From Jimmy Neutron 2: Rise of Lord Neutron

[tallyho]

Talking of continuous subliminal messages....
What are the odds, huh? 12 polls in 4 months and they all show the exact same figure as the approval rating. And they are unsourced.
It's a God-damned miracle, or a lie. Take your pick.

Screenshot_20200803-203018~2.png (470.09 KiB) Viewed 2617 times

Screenshot_20200803-202932~2.png (510.08 KiB) Viewed 2617 times

[tallyho]

^^^it's doing that kinda crap that undermines belief in the State and Federal authorities, and the System

[Bert]

Hahaha! That 96% approval rating is just the number Trump's staff feed him to avert another temper tantrum. Whenever he starts losing his shit and freaking out at them, they whip out this imaginary stat to calm him down. It's like a pacifier.

[tallyho]

The contempt for your audience that you think you can keep pumping that out to them and they won't notice is staggering

[Dazzle1]

Feminia you might learn something if you watched Fox or read the WSJ as opposed to a rag like the Guardian which outright lies and give space to islamic terrorists like the leader of Iran and Omar Barghouti, racists like Ilhan Omar and Al sharpton and eco frauds like Bill McKibbon and Gerta Thurnberg

[tallyho]

Please explain why Greta Thunberg is an eco fraud and while you are at it perhaps you can take the time to answer my previous question of you, why is it a crime to Pardon someone who doesn't incriminate you at Barr hearing but not a crime when Trump actually does it.?
You remember, this one

Screenshot_20200730-180452.png (757.81 KiB) Viewed 2577 times

(That's a screenshot not a link)

[Dazzle1]

Please explain why Greta Thunberg is an eco fraud and while you are at it perhaps you can take the time to answer my previous question of you, why is it a crime to Pardon someone who doesn't incriminate you at Barr hearing but not a crime when Trump actually does it.?
You remember, this one
Screenshot_20200730-180452.png

(That's a screenshot not a link)

First Trump pardoned Stone because the whole process was tainted from the investigation to Amy Brennnan Jackson misconduct in not declaring a mistrial when the foreperson lied about her anti Trump activities

Greta the Brat has a huge global footprint , so like Gore does not practice what she preaches. And like Gore and AOC knows nothing about sustainability or Green energy

[Damselbinder]

"Anti-Trump activities"? She made some social media posts. Posts, by the way, about Trump: not Stone who was, y'know, the defendant. The article below explains quite clearly what ludicrous, infantile whingeing the calls for a mistrial are. The posts were not hidden. The defence could have found them as soon as she was suggested as a juror.

https://www.law.com/nationallawjournal/ ... 0704074418

And the "well YOU travel on aeroplanes therefore you're a BIG HYPOCRITE" is petulant nonsense. The climate crisis is not going to be solved by individual people travelling or not travelling on aeroplanes (even if it did you might justify it by saying that they're flying all about the place trying to stop a spectacular environmental disaster). It is going to be solved by massive governmental investment and policy changes. Your logic is that of someone trying to apportion part of the blame for the sinking of the Titanic on someone who spilled their highball on the deck.

[tallyho]

First Trump pardoned Stone because the whole process was tainted from the investigation to Amy Brennnan Jackson misconduct in not declaring a mistrial when the foreperson lied about her anti Trump activities

Greta the Brat has a huge global footprint , so like Gore does not practice what she preaches. And like Gore and AOC knows nothing about sustainability or Green energy

Well Greta SAILED to the UN conference in New York, so I would argue that she is PRECISELY practicing what she preaches. Secondly SHE'S A KID. She's not saying she's got all the answers she is actively asking US as the responsible adults in the positions of power to find them.

Trump pardoned Stone because a juror had tweeted about Trump? Which is relevant because...? Wasn't he found guilty of lying to Congress? Doesn't that count for anything? And the other 6 charges he was found guilty of.
ALL negated by tweets about Trump? Is that seriously your position as to why its not a crime to Pardon Stone?
If Trump was innocent Stone could have happily given him up knowing there was no case to answer. But he refused. He refused to incriminate him and was subsequently pardoned. If ANY of the 7 convictions were questionable then surely that is what you have an appeals process for?

The idea that some people believe in spite of everything that it's fine to pardon Stone is a tragedy for democracy because it literally gives the president and all his friends a licence to break the law with impunity. Nixon got vilified for saying that a president was above the law and now it doesn't matter, apparently.

I wonder if you have any comprehension that side of the pond just how far you have sunk as a nation in the eyes of the world. These are desperately tragic times for the free world.
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[Bert]

With respect, why are you guys arguing with this idiot?

[Damselbinder]

With respect, why are you guys arguing with this idiot?

By training, I'm a philosopher. If I don't maintain a belief in the power of rational argumentation to change people's minds, I abandon the entire discipline. I also try not to flat-out insult my opponents.

...most of the time.

[tallyho]

Please don't call anyone an idiot on the forum or imply it, and this is a discussion not an argument, for me anyhow.
There's the old adage that if you argue with an idiot in the street all anyone passing sees is two idiots having an argument, SO.
NO ONE IS AN IDIOT*
NO ONE IS ARGUING

Just because we share different opinions, I was hoping there might be an acceptance of illegality or even if there was genuinely valid cause that I was unaware of, I was prepared to change my position on Barr if I am wrong. But if the only justification for the pardon amounts to 'tweets and stuff' I am unfortunately more convinced than ever that Republicans have sold their soul to the devil. The writing was on the wall when they denied admittance of the evidence that would impeach Trump and then by not hearing it didn't impeach him due to lack of evidence, was an obvious sign.
I watched a good 3 hr documentary on Watergate and what struck me there was you had REPUBLICAN senators grilling WH staff because above all party politics they valued the constitution and the rule of law. Those times are no more and when you have republicans blocking the hearing of evidence to keep their man in power its the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "TRA-LA-LA-LAL LA" at the top of your lungs whilst someone tries to talk to you.


* I might be.

[Femina]

With respect, why are you guys arguing with this idiot?

I don't argue to change people's minds. The maze of problems you run into with changing the views and opinions of the people or persons you are directly debating with are ordinarily so convoluted that changing anyone's perspective directly is improbable. If I DO change someones mind I'd consider that a bonus. I argue so that there's more than one perspective on display when those whose opinions are more gestational or aren't so entrenched/invested in the argument they simply CAN'T change their minds will have more than one opinion on display to make up their own minds and hopefully come to the right conclusions (but ultimately just their own, I don't claim to know the ultimate truth of anything).

If 'All Lives Matter is not racist, there's no systemic racism in America, and Trump has a 96% approval rating in the Republican party' is the ONLY argument on display, people will believe it... cause they'll think that if its the ONLY thing anywhere, than it must be true.

Feminia you might learn something if you watched Fox or read the WSJ as opposed to a rag like the Guardian which outright lies and give space to islamic terrorists like the leader of Iran and Omar Barghouti, racists like Ilhan Omar and Al sharpton and eco frauds like Bill McKibbon and Gerta Thurnberg

I cannot think of a better way to illustrate that I DO pay attention to what Fox is saying more than I already have. If I didn't, I wouldn't have indicated that I found the fact that FOX NEWS doesn't speak much about Antifa EITHER as an argument to the strange emphasis on Antifa here on the website. I DO Dazzle... I DO peek in at Fox News to see what their saying. I don't know where anything I was talking about above indicated that I was not.

... but I do find it funny being advertised Fox news as an alternative to the 'Guardian's lies!!!' Fox News is so full of crap their a meme.

[Dazzle1]

Please don't call anyone an idiot on the forum or imply it, and this is a discussion not an argument, for me anyhow.
There's the old adage that if you argue with an idiot in the street all anyone passing sees is two idiots having an argument, SO.
NO ONE IS AN IDIOT*
NO ONE IS ARGUING

Just because we share different opinions, I was hoping there might be an acceptance of illegality or even if there was genuinely valid cause that I was unaware of, I was prepared to change my position on Barr if I am wrong. But if the only justification for the pardon amounts to 'tweets and stuff' I am unfortunately more convinced than ever that Republicans have sold their soul to the devil. The writing was on the wall when they denied admittance of the evidence that would impeach Trump and then by not hearing it didn't impeach him due to lack of evidence was an obvious sign.
I watched a good 3 hr documentary on Watergate and what struck me there was you had REPUBLICAN senators grilling WH staff because above all party politics they valued the constitution and the rule of law. Those times are no more and when you have republicans blocking the hearing of evidence to keep their man in power its the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "TRA-LA-LA-LAL LA" at the top of your lungs whilst someone tries to talk to you.


* I might be.

Don't get me wrong I don't find the Republican blameless but I do see the Dems as the greater problem and the one who have sold their soul.


Just watch the hearing last week or highlights they did not let Barr answer questions, just as during the Kavanaugh hearings when they slandered an innocent man

[Damselbinder]

Being rude in a hearing (as, I admit, stupid and counter-productive as it was) does not equate to the defence of a president who used his powers of pardon in exchange for someone not informing on them. Being rude in a hearing does not equate to a social policy that is, at best, startlingly cavalier about the physical welfare of those in poverty. Being rude in a hearing does not equate to shocking deference to Vladimir Putin. Being rude in a hearing does not equate to a mishandling of the current pandemic which has been so incompetent that the richest nation in the world has the highest rate of per-capita deaths. Being rude in a hearing does not equate to willful ignorance about an impending environmental catastrophe of such severity that its like has not been seen by our species since the last ice age.

I have no love for the Democratic party as an institution. But the Republicans are incomprehensibly venal.

[tallyho]

I didn't agree with them talking over Barr either for whatever that's worth.
But I think you have demonised the Democrats for what you believe they MIGHT do and completely overlooked the fact that your president wipes his arse on your constitution on a daily basis.

You must surely see the precedent that Barr and Stone have set.?
You can wilfully deceive Congress, lie under sworn testimony and commit any crime you wish and you do it with the full participation of the president. Just dont tell anyone and no one goes to jail

[Dazzle1]

I didn't agree with them talking over Barr either for whatever that's worth.
But I think you have demonised the Democrats for what you believe they MIGHT do and completely overlooked the fact that your president wipes his arse on your constitution on a daily basis.

You must surely see the precedent that Barr and Stone have set.?
You can wilfully deceive Congress, lie under sworn testimony and commit any crime you wish and you do it with the full participation of the president. Just dont tell anyone and no one goes to jail

You mean like Erik Holder and Lois Lerner did?

I don't think Barr has lied under oath.

I am more concerned that Adam Schiff and other in congress lied about the impeachment and abused their position.

[Damselbinder]

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/viral ... tleblower/

[tallyho]

.

I am more concerned that Adam Schiff and other in congress lied about the impeachment and abused their position.

So you are SERIOUSLY saying that you are more concerned with Congressmen possibly abusing their position - than the PRESIDENT and commander in chief demonstrably abusing his?!!!!!

Colour me speechless.

That sound you can hear that side of the water is my jaw hitting the floor followed by my sides splitting.

You HAVE to see the flaw in your position there, surely?

[tallyho]

This is your President.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidmarko ... -the-data/

Telling over 23 lies PER DAY on average. (and that was back in May, God knows what he is up to now). As reported in that hotbed of communism and leftist propaganda, Forbes.

[Damselbinder]

I sense us straying somewhat from the topic of the thread. We wouldn't want to get phantom zoned.

[Bert]

Just to be a dick, I'd like to point out that I never mentioned a certain someone by name and yet everyone knew who I meant. That, plus the further "conversation" seems to justify my point.

[tallyho]

I sense us straying somewhat from the topic of the thread. We wouldn't want to get phantom zoned.

Possibly, but I was using that link to illustrate people have every reason to be disillusioned and have mistrust in authority and the System of government. (UK aren't much better off as BoJo the clown is also a proven liar.)

[Dazzle1]

.

I am more concerned that Adam Schiff and other in congress lied about the impeachment and abused their position.

So you are SERIOUSLY saying that you are more concerned with Congressmen possibly abusing their position - than the PRESIDENT and commander in chief demonstrably abusing his?!!!!!

Colour me speechless.

That sound you can hear that side of the water is my jaw hitting the floor followed by my sides splitting.

You HAVE to see the flaw in your position there, surely?

Congress and the former President Obama did far more than Trump. I know that it is hard for some to grasp. But it is the fact from the illegal Iran deal to using the IRS to target foes;Obama's crimes were far worse.

[tallyho]

You are seriously mistaken and blind to the vast body of evidence against Trump.
"Obamas crimes are far worse" than what direct attacks upon the people? Destroying the constitution? Through gross incompetence being complicit in the deaths of 150,000 of his own people?

I am watching the second part of the Watergate documentary and the Republicans joined Dems to vote unanimously that the tapes be subpoenaed. Today they would have ( and have) blocked such a move to see evidence that would condemn Trump.
That you believe that's acceptable speaks volumes for how low the republican party and its supporters have sunk.
A man who lies on average 23 times a day largely about shit that doesn't matter you can bet your bottom dollar lies about the big stuff.
What we know about Trump is appalling. What we don't know will be sickening.

According to newsweek-
https://www.newsweek.com/remember-irs-s ... ong-681674

[Damselbinder]

The Iran deal was a diplomatic godsend. Trump torpedoed it out of petty vindictiveness.

[Dazzle1]

The Iran deal was a diplomatic godsend. Trump torpedoed it out of petty vindictiveness.

Not according to our allies in the area.

Iran was allowed to continue it's islamic terrorism against Israel and other Muslim countries

Even the Dems did not support is while Barack was in office

Trump made the moral decision.

Jewish Lives Matter

[Damselbinder]

Please find me the part of the deal which said "by the way Iran, you may do terrorism and we won't do anything about it." Please find that for me.

By "according to our allies in the area", you mean Netanyahu, I suppose? Well a) he's a corrupt criminal and b) even if he weren't (I suppose just being a criminal doesn't mean you can't be right about a particular aspect of international relations), there were plenty of Jewish people in favour of the deal. J-Street, a pro-Israel lobby, spent something like $5 million in support of the deal. There was broad international agreement. It was ratified by the U.N.. It was the best deal anyone was going to get.

[Dazzle1]

Please find me the part of the deal which said "by the way Iran, you may do terrorism and we won't do anything about it." Please find that for me.

By "according to our allies in the area", you mean Netanyahu, I suppose? Well a) he's a corrupt criminal and b) even if he weren't (I suppose just being a criminal doesn't mean you can't be right about a particular aspect of international relations), there were plenty of Jewish people in favour of the deal. J-Street, a pro-Israel lobby, spent something like $5 million in support of the deal. There was broad international agreement. It was ratified by the U.N.. It was the best deal anyone was going to get.

The Iran deal did nothing about putting pressure on the Iran terror regime to stop their actvities against non Shites as well as Jews. Israel should have been at the table and Iran should have been forced to dismantle Hamas and Hezbollah.

J Street is a joke, it is like saying Haeertz is the Israel paper of record. AIPAC represent the American Jewish community. I've been to Israel have you.?

[tallyho]

The Iran deal was a diplomatic godsend. Trump torpedoed it out of petty vindictiveness.

Not according to our allies in the area.

Iran was allowed to continue it's islamic terrorism against Israel and other Muslim countries

Trump made the moral decision.

(I've condensed your post in the quote above)
Not according to ONE of your allies in the area - Turkey and Saudi Arabia were on board because they could see it for what it was an overture to get Iran back into the influence of the international community rather than being a rogue state. Britain France Germany the EU as a whole and Nato were all in favour of it as it provides a degree of stability. Upon which you can build.


'Trump made the moral decision'

It's hilarious that you used 'Trump' and 'moral' in the same sentence but even more hilarious that you apparently believe that.
Ripping up the agreement was a purely political move that diverted headlines away from Mueller and Cohen which were getting dicey for him at the time, exactly the same as when he gave Isreal recognition of Jerusalem as the capital in contravention of the UN mandate and the existing Peace Accords. It moved domestic issues to page 5 and he was happy. And came out of left field. No one was in the streets demanding it. It had been an Isreali desire since its founding but other nations recognized the upset it would cause in the region. Cue 2 weeks of rioting, 68 dead and suddenly no one is asking about Mueller or Cohen for a fortnight.

'Moral decision' Oh dear oh dear that's a good one.


The guy didn't know Finland was a country for God's sake, that's how much he has his finger on the pulse of world affairs.