Cops Are not Bad People and the System is not Corrupt

[bushwackerbob]

I read a post a couple days ago about a reality show that is starting soon and is having an all star season and one of the prospective cast members is a former cop and this douche said he was uncomfortable having a former cop on the show in these racially charged atmosphere in which we now live. Wow, this is how far down the rabbit hole we have gone in terms of how some view the police nowadays when a former friggin cop has nattering nancys bitching about a former cop going on some stupid reality show. I suppose Antifa really has made some inroads in some quarters of society nowadays with the death to cops chant heard at some rallies, the anecdotal examples of officers being refused service at some establishments, and the overall growing antipathy towards those who are sworn to protect us. I believe one murder of an unarmed African American male by a police officer is one too many never mind the 13 black men who tragically had their lives taken from them by bad cops in 2019. Yes, of course there needs to be reform in how we root out the bad cops from these police forces (I believe the a-hole cop that killed George Floyd had something like 19 previous complaints against him) and I fully support efforts to more easily remove these bad cops. We may ultimately have to bust up some of these police unions in order to achieve some of those real reforms, and I for one am on board with that. Some bloke said that the system that employs the police is corrupt because these incidents keep happening without reform. Under that loose (and I think incorrect) definition of corruption every damn organization and entity in the universe can be categorized under that umbrella. Only demagogues and prevaricators of the truth seek to define a system or a profession of overwhelmingly good and brave people as corrupt and seek to define them based on a minority of bad actors that do not represent the system or profession as a whole. Antifa indeed! That would be akin to me holding the peaceable BLM protesters accountable for the actions of the minority of individuals who caused violence, riots, and general mayhem during those BLM protests. Let us not paint too broad a picture based on the actions of a relative few.

[Bert]

Interesting topic.

I have been a part of the motorcycling world for a long time and known and ridden with many people. There are a lot of reasons for getting into riding motorcycling, and some of them are bad reasons. Thinking it makes you look cool, or attractive to the opposite sex, or badass, these are poor reasons to ride. Some poseurs are so attuned to perception that they actually buy worn out racing tires for their bikes so people will think they are fast riders.

As I see it, policing is a unique category of employment and it can't be compared with anything else. The job grants officers a large amount of authority over citizens along with, in most cases, a firearm. Even people who become police officers for the noblest of reasons can become part of the problem through exposure to a toxic culture and often seeing people at their worst. But many officers pursue a policing career for bad reasons. Much like the priesthood attracting pedophiles, policing attracts people who crave authority over others. How many of us have had encounters with officers who make it abundantly clear they love lording their power over us?

I don't think the issue with police is that there are a few bad apples. I think there are a lot of bad apples. The job can force people into behaving badly, but it can also attract the wrong type of person. It's a tough problem to solve. You can say they should screen better, and perhaps that could help, but just how many applicants are there who are qualified and also doing it for the right reasons?

I'm sympathetic to BWB's viewpoint, and with a brother in the force he has access to evidence most of us don't. I just feel like the "few bad apples" line is under-representing the scale of the problem.

[bushwackerbob]

Interesting topic.

I have been a part of the motorcycling world for a long time and known and ridden with many people. There are a lot of reasons for getting into riding motorcycling, and some of them are bad reasons. Thinking it makes you look cool, or attractive to the opposite sex, or badass, these are poor reasons to ride. Some poseurs are so attuned to perception that they actually buy worn out racing tires for their bikes so people will think they are fast riders.

As I see it, policing is a unique category of employment and it can't be compared with anything else. The job grants officers a large amount of authority over citizens along with, in most cases, a firearm. Even people who become police officers for the noblest of reasons can become part of the problem through exposure to a toxic culture and often seeing people at their worst. But many officers pursue a policing career for bad reasons. Much like the priesthood attracting pedophiles, policing attracts people who crave authority over others. How many of us have had encounters with officers who make it abundantly clear they love lording their power over us?

I don't think the issue with police is that there are a few bad apples. I think there are a lot of bad apples. The job can force people into behaving badly, but it can also attract the wrong type of person. It's a tough problem to solve. You can say they should screen better, and perhaps that could help, but just how many applicants are there who are qualified and also doing it for the right reasons?

I'm sympathetic to BWB's viewpoint, and with a brother in the force he has access to evidence most of us don't. I just feel like the "few bad apples" line is under-representing the scale of the problem.

Yes, I have a brother on the force, and I imagine having someone you love in that position to a great degree informs my opinions on the subject of police matters, so yes, I am clearly biased. I do not however claim to have any extra insight or unique perspective as to how cops do their jobs or the unique pressures they are under day in and day out, I am just a brother who hopes his brother makes it home safely every night to his two little girls and prays something terrible will never happen to him to make those two precious little girls grow up without a father. We live in scary times right now, and just as I mourn the loss of every unarmed black man who is murdered by cops, I also recognize too that it must be a scary and dangerous place right now for the good people in law enforcement having to deal with looters stealing from stores, mobs of people lined up outside banks trying to smash windows trying to get in, and bad characters creating general mayhem. No matter how you slice it, the inarguable and inescapable fact is this: there is a troubling trend towards demonizing law enforcement and my concern is that if this trend continues that the disrespect and outright disdain for the police will further normalize this aberrant behavior and embolden increasing numbers of morally deranged individuals to target the good cops in order to injure them or take their lives. Yes, I am aware that with so many people out there in social media weighing in with opinions and hot takes that some feel that to punch through and get their opinions heard they have to be "edgy and provocative" with their takes, but I think if people want to be part of the solution rather than the problem, we ought to tone down the rhetoric and stop using incendiary words such as "corrupt" and "cops are pigs" (thanks Kaepernick). A lot of bad apples? I can't speak for Canada, but here in the U.S, if you break down just how many police we have employed and break down how many bad cops there are in relation to that huge number, then comparatively speaking, I would say that it's a small minority of cops in these precincts being bad cops. About 4 days after George Floyd's death, the head of the Minneapolis police union actually said that it is his job to see that the murdering SOB cop get his job back. THAT, my friends is where you start with police reform in weeding out (and yes Bert better screening as well) these scumbag bad cops that give good cops a bad name. We must somehow overcome these entrenched police unions power base and make it easier to root out these bad cops.

[Bert]

I wish I could click on a "like" for this comment.

[Dazzle1]

I read a post a couple days ago about a reality show that is starting soon and is having an all star season and one of the prospective cast members is a former cop and this douche said he was uncomfortable having a former cop on the show in these racially charged atmosphere in which we now live. Wow, this is how far down the rabbit hole we have gone in terms of how some view the police nowadays when a former friggin cop has nattering nancys bitching about a former cop going on some stupid reality show. I suppose Antifa really has made some inroads in some quarters of society nowadays with the death to cops chant heard at some rallies, the anecdotal examples of officers being refused service at some establishments, and the overall growing antipathy towards those who are sworn to protect us. I believe one murder of an unarmed African American male by a police officer is one too many never mind the 13 black men who tragically had their lives taken from them by bad cops in 2019. Yes, of course there needs to be reform in how we root out the bad cops from these police forces (I believe the a-hole cop that killed George Floyd had something like 19 previous complaints against him) and I fully support efforts to more easily remove these bad cops. We may ultimately have to bust up some of these police unions in order to achieve some of those real reforms, and I for one am on board with that. Some bloke said that the system that employs the police is corrupt because these incidents keep happening without reform. Under that loose (and I think incorrect) definition of corruption every damn organization and entity in the universe can be categorized under that umbrella. Only demagogues and prevaricators of the truth seek to define a system or a profession of overwhelmingly good and brave people as corrupt and seek to define them based on a minority of bad actors that do not represent the system or profession as a whole. Antifa indeed! That would be akin to me holding the peaceable BLM protesters accountable for the actions of the minority of individuals who caused violence, riots, and general mayhem during those BLM protests. Let us not paint too broad a picture based on the actions of a relative few.

George Floyd's death was a crime, but it almost never happens with the police who are ethical human beings

The whole vendetta against the police is by people who preach hate. In my state, the State Senate pass an anti police bill and would not allow any public comment

Look at the results when you coddle BLM and Antifa in Portland, and unlike the police , most members there are violent and/or racists

[Damselbinder]

[bushwackerbob]

Yes, of course, numbers tell the whole story. Leave out the melting pot dynamic out of those numbers is a great way to take a story out of context and contribute to this toxic and dangerous Antifa anti-cop dynamic. This seems more and more like Russian bot stuff.

[Damselbinder]

"Numbers don't tell the whole story" is not equivalent to "numbers don't tell any of the story." Do these numbers prove conclusively that it's the fault of some sort of corrupt police culture? Certainly not. Do these numbers prove conclusively that America is especially unsafe for people of colour? Certainly not. Do these numbers show what the cause of the problem is? Certainly not.

But they show that there IS a problem. The melting pot thing I suppose might have something to do with it, but America is not the world's most ethnically and culturally diverse nation. It's not the second most. It's not the 10th most. It's not the 20th most.

It is the 85th most. In fact, by a certain metric it's more like 200th.

And the police are the ones holding the guns. Doesn't it make sense at least to start by looking at them to work out why this is how it is?

[Dazzle1]

"Numbers don't tell the whole story" is not equivalent to "numbers don't tell any of the story." Do these numbers prove conclusively that it's the fault of some sort of corrupt police culture? Certainly not. Do these numbers prove conclusively that America is especially unsafe for people of colour? Certainly not. Do these numbers show what the cause of the problem is? Certainly not.

But they show that there IS a problem. The melting pot thing I suppose might have something to do with it, but America is not the world's most ethnically and culturally diverse nation. It's not the second most. It's not the 10th most. It's not the 20th most.

It is the 85th most. In fact, by a certain metric it's more like 200th.

And the police are the ones holding the guns. Doesn't it make sense at least to start by looking at them to work out why this is how it is?

Are you basing this on the Feron criteria which is by language?

I never take anything that Wikipedia puts out at face value

The definition that ranks the U.S low is more promotes the ghettoziation of cultures as opposed to the melting pot that make the U.S one if not the most culturally diverse nations in global history.

[Damselbinder]

"Numbers don't tell the whole story" is not equivalent to "numbers don't tell any of the story." Do these numbers prove conclusively that it's the fault of some sort of corrupt police culture? Certainly not. Do these numbers prove conclusively that America is especially unsafe for people of colour? Certainly not. Do these numbers show what the cause of the problem is? Certainly not.

But they show that there IS a problem. The melting pot thing I suppose might have something to do with it, but America is not the world's most ethnically and culturally diverse nation. It's not the second most. It's not the 10th most. It's not the 20th most.

It is the 85th most. In fact, by a certain metric it's more like 200th.

And the police are the ones holding the guns. Doesn't it make sense at least to start by looking at them to work out why this is how it is?

Are you basing this on the Feron criteria which is by language?

I never take anything that Wikipedia puts out at face value

The definition that ranks the U.S low is more promotes the ghettoziation of cultures as opposed to the melting pot that make the U.S one if not the most culturally diverse nations in global history.

As far as I understood it was the language one which put the US at 200th, and the other one (not about language) put it higher, at 85th. But my understanding may well be insufficient, and it is a point I am perfectly willing to concede. I make no claims to be an ethnographer of any skill. I should hope, though, that the central point still stands: there are many other nations that are at least comparably ethnically diverse to the US which do not have anything like the numbers of police shootings the US does. Might melting potness have something to do with it? I don't see how I could possibly rule that out. But it also seems very, very unlikely that that's the whole story.

[bushwackerbob]

You can't tell the whole story by just putting the numbers up there with big and fancy graphics. Gee! What a revelation! The melting pot thing MIGHT have something to do with the numbers! WOW! Did you ever consider that there might be other factors beside the melting pot thing as well that might affect those numbers as well, mate. Of course there is a problem! Thanks Mr. Obvious. I just think that if all one relies on are numbers and statistics and what one sees on the TV on the news you do not get a true sense of the magnitude of the problem. I read this book once where they said that the mind plays tricks on you, that if one is bombarded continuously with images whether they be positive or negative, and that is all one sees, that the subconscious mind begins to fill in the blanks and bridge that gap of knowledge with these images and one tries to find numbers regardless of context to support their narrative. I believe they called it a subjectivity bias. That is what I think is in play here. Both here in the states and abroad we have been subjected with these 24 hour news cycle examples of cops behaving in a reckless manner in a number of situations, repeatedly seen this horrific images of George Floyd's murder and other examples, inundated with these horrible videos of these things, that I think it becomes something of an information overload and some people fall into the subjectivity bias trap and have this skewed sense of the police in my country. How about we start the reforms by not letting these a-hole cops get to 19 complaints before they murder a poor soul. That seems like a good place to start as any to me. I think 85 is way off, I think you need to find another source of information. That just does not sound right or correct.

[Damselbinder]

So you think then that there is a problem within how police forces are run - namely that the "bad apples" are allowed to get away with so much for so long - and that this should be changed? I quite agree. I think you've put much of the blame on police unions and from what I can gather (from news, astonishingly enough) that seems fair. You think that demonisation of police and the "bad apples" (if the police get to use this term, I don't see why protesters can't) among the BLM movement who encourage retaliatory violence against the police should be shouted down and criticised, by people inside and outside of the larger movement? I quite agree.

I'm... not sure we actually disagree on all that much.

[bushwackerbob]

I just could not believe that quote from the Minneapolis police union guy who said that it was his job to get the murderer of George Floyd, the a-hole cop, his job back. What a ridiculous and tone deaf thing to say. That boggles my mind. That kind of thinking is what we have to fix in these police departments. How can you keep a guy on the job that has 19 complaints? There must be a better way to ferret out these bad cops and Bert also made a good point in that perhaps better screening of these individuals before they are hired should also be accomplished. Unlike some of my friends, I can easily enough distinguish between the peaceful BLM protesters and the hooligans and a-holes who are taking advantage of this situation to loot businesses and cause mayhem. It's sort of a tricky thing because there does not seem to be any central leadership or one voice to the movement, that you have many in that movement with seemingly pure motives to raise awareness to the plight of African American males in regards to their treatment by police, and there are also a minority of voices in BLM who pop off and articulate incendiary rhetoric. My only concern with these peaceful BLM protests is the obvious health issue with COVID-19 and the lack of people wearing masks and these large congregations of people during this health crisis. If it was not for that huge health concern, I would have absolutely no problem with BLM peaceable protests and their desire to raise awareness for the problems and issues that concern the African American community. I just wish some of those leaders would speak out a little more about some of those jerks who ruin their peaceable protests with violence and mayhem. The BLM gets an unfair guilt by association tag in my view when these peaceful protests degenerate into violence.

[Damselbinder]

Man, I need to apologise to you, Bushwacker. I thought you were being way more unreasonable than you actually are.

[Maskripper]

Actually I wanted to become a cop myself. Luckily that didn't work out (over 5000 canidates for some hundred spots) and today I wouldn't want to be a cop anyhow.
But I really admire that kind of work.
Here in germany you have to study 3 years to become a cop.... this is nothing you can do with some months in some academy like it seems to be in the US.
And luckily only a very few people here are allowed to carry guns.
So, I read that germany had only around 300 deadly shootings (where a cop shoots someone)....AND not in the last year.....in the last 30 years!
I don't like pacifists, and I am certainly not one. I just think that you don't need assault rifles in the hand of civilians. That is BS!
A pistol to defend the home, that is safely stored at home...ok...that would still ...somehow....ok for me....but everything else is madness. Deadly madness.
If not all folks in the US would be armed....the numbers of deadly shootings would go down drastically.
Plus: A better training and maybe harder requirements to become a cop...would help in the US.

[Bert]

The whole vendetta against the police is by people who preach hate.

Well that's an impressively ironic comment.

[ivandobsky]

Guardian stats

These stats are confusing/misleading, and there's probably no need for them to be. Why obfuscate the truth when it suits your narrative anyway? We can get close to some representative numbers by making the calculation of fatal shootings per capita per year. fatal_shootings/(population*time)

The numbers we get aren't really directly comparable because times change, and the population value is not constant over the time period, but it should be within orders of magnitude.

1) England+Wales. 55/(59.9M * 24) = 3.82e-8 => 1 in 26 million chance per person per year.
US. 59/(316.1M * 0.0657) = 2.83e-6 =>1 in 352 thousand chance per person per year.

Someone has a ~70 times greater chance of being fatally shot by police in the US than in ~the UK. In the UK this is buying a lottery ticket once a year, in the US more like once a week.

That being said, what with the media and politicians preventing the police from doing their jobs, and turning a blind eye to violence that happens in the name of a good cause, I'd happily buy my inverse lottery ticket if it means I don't get murdered by people other than the police!

[bushwackerbob]

Man, I need to apologise to you, Bushwacker. I thought you were being way more unreasonable than you actually are.

I don't think it's a good idea to bury one's head in the sand either. These issues will not go away if we just ignore them. There are real problems here with policing that need solutions. I just hope that when the marches die down, the cameras and media coverage go away, that people don't feel that the pressure is off to introduce reforms. We need to hold our mayors and police chiefs feet to the fire and not let this issue fade away again without making real efforts at reforms, and inevitably wait until the next George Floyd thing pops up again and this madness starts all over again. The thing that concerns me is that this police union thing is not being discussed a whole lot and for me, that is where a lot of these reforms begin and we hardly hear any conversations about their intransigence on some of these issues. I get that traditionally Democrats are on the side of unions and the prospect of Dems forcing these police unions into much needed reforms might seem to be a politically unpalatable position right now, I would argue that this issue goes beyond politics, that it's about public safety and the ability to root out bad cops without these police unions standing in the way of jettisoning these despicable individuals.

[Femina]

I don't believe that anybody actually thinks 'Cops' are bad people in the sense that they actually believe that EVERY COP is an individual monster!!! I don't think anyone realistically believes that unless their being unreasonably obtuse. What I think most believe is that bad people utilize the platform and power of the police in a problematic system. The system IS busted. Corrupt. Broken. Based on a flawed platform... Whatever the actual problem is, it's not HEALTHY. I heard a compelling and heartfelt statement by an African American man not too long ago that he felt the system hadn't just failed George Floyd... but ALSO the man who killed him. It made that man feel empowered to commit murder (or at the VERY least Manslaughter if it helps the discussion peaceably) and destroy two lives at the same time (not to mention the families of the parties involved)

I nearly joined the police about a decade ago, went through all the motions and sat in on the first day of the Academy, and I was promptly convinced by the dude who came out to speak to us on that first day that I had no business being there, because I didn't have 'what it takes' to be vigilant and watchful for any sign that I might have to defend myself or another with lethal force at ANY moment.

We need to stop training our police like they are soldiers. They aren't. We need to stop drilling in them that the people they should fear the most are the people they're supposed to protect, and we need to better profile their views and biases in relation to those people. Now I'll be frank, I don't see this as a simple issue. I can't stand up on a platform and call out for police to be replaced with citizens... giving the same authority and firearms as the police, I have a very difficult time believing we're better suited by UNTRAINED amateur security forces with firearms than we are under trained professionals with firearms.

But what we HAVE isn't working. So while I get concerns about change. While I can see disagreeing with offered solutions... what I DON'T get, is how anybody could just say "Nah, it's cool as is bro. They haven't shot ME yet." considering the sheer numbers per capita in relation to the rest of the world. We owe better than that to the citizens of the United States whom the system is failing by allowing them to be shot in greater numbers than anywhere else in the world, and we owe better to the police whom that system is failing by doing whatever it is doing that encourages them to pull the trigger in greater numbers than anywhere else in the world.

If it IS broke, we gotta fix it.

[Dazzle1]

The whole vendetta against the police is by people who preach hate.

Well that's an impressively ironic comment.

You don't think BLM:

Fry Cops like Bacon
Supporting BDS
tearing down others cultural statues

does not promote hate?

[Femina]

The whole vendetta against the police is by people who preach hate.

Well that's an impressively ironic comment.

You don't think BLM:

Fry Cops like Bacon
Supporting BDS
tearing down others cultural statues

does not promote hate?

No cop has ever been fried like bacon last I checked...

And fuck those statues. Those were the statues of slavers who claimed to be members of 'the land of the free'. I deserve a statue more than Robert E. Lee does. You want your culture so bad, put up a new statue where his was and make a BETTER culture out of it. Culture isn't good simply by nature of it being there and BAD culture doesn't need to be glorified. It's OKAY, we have history books that discuss this stuff, we won't forget what douche-bags the leaders of the South were anytime soon.

[Dazzle1]

The whole vendetta against the police is by people who preach hate.

Well that's an impressively ironic comment.

You don't think BLM:

Fry Cops like Bacon
Supporting BDS
tearing down others cultural statues

does not promote hate?

No cop has ever been fried like bacon last I checked...

And fuck those statues. Those were the statues of slavers who claimed to be members of 'the land of the free'. I deserve a statue more than Robert E. Lee does. You want your culture so bad, put up a new statue where his was and make a BETTER culture out of it. Culture isn't good simply by nature of it being there and BAD culture doesn't need to be glorified. It's OKAY, we have history books that discuss this stuff, we won't forget what douche-bags the leaders of the South were anytime soon.

What about Columbus, Grant and Lee?

I don't want a group with I see as anti-Semetic and racist as BLM making that decision. I find their banner hateful, do I have the right to go to Somerville MA and rip it down from City Hall or pour paint over the on 6th Ave in NYC? You bet they would arrest me for that.

[bushwackerbob]

Defending confederate symbols, statues, or people who fought to maintain a way of life that included subjecting blacks to the evils of slavery, treating them as mere property rather than fellow human beings is not a hill I am willing to die on. Tear all of those confederate symbols and statues down. For those white southerners who claim that those confederate symbols denote their southern heritage pride and do not contain a racial element in their attachment to those symbols, I urge them to consider what those symbols must mean to their fellow southern, African American brothers and sisters, the constant reminders that their ancestors were brought over to this country in chains and subjected to cruel and harsh treatment, treated as property and not as fellow human beings, and that the confederacy and it's accompanying ideology sought to keep those poor souls in the chains of slavery rather than live their lives as truly free people.

[Femina]

Well said BWB

The whole vendetta against the police is by people who preach hate.

Well that's an impressively ironic comment.

You don't think BLM:

Fry Cops like Bacon
Supporting BDS
tearing down others cultural statues

does not promote hate?

No cop has ever been fried like bacon last I checked...

And fuck those statues. Those were the statues of slavers who claimed to be members of 'the land of the free'. I deserve a statue more than Robert E. Lee does. You want your culture so bad, put up a new statue where his was and make a BETTER culture out of it. Culture isn't good simply by nature of it being there and BAD culture doesn't need to be glorified. It's OKAY, we have history books that discuss this stuff, we won't forget what douche-bags the leaders of the South were anytime soon.

What about Columbus, Grant and Lee?

I don't want a group with I see as anti-Semetic and racist as BLM making that decision. I find their banner hateful, do I have the right to go to Somerville MA and rip it down from City Hall or pour paint over the on 6th Ave in NYC? You bet they would arrest me for that.

JUST to be clear. You don't want 'Anti-semetic's and racist's like BLM' making the decision to remove a statue of a CONFIRMED racist who fought and killed people for the right to OWN other human beings under the banner that he should be FREE to do so in this land where ALL MEN are supposedly created EQUAL... and therefore you'd rather we keep up his statue and others of his Ilk. Gotcha.

You know what? Maybe tearing down the Berlin Wall was a mistake? Some of the people in that crowd maybe represented things that I don't like... so we should have just LEFT UP a symbol of division and separation just to be safe.

Fuck the statues. They were symbols of everything America supposedly stands AGAINST. Racist's and Anti-Semetic's got nothing to do with it. You, as an American, who values freedom and the core concept that all men are created equal, should be able to reason without bothering yourself as to the politics of others... that a statue of a man who fought to own other human beings sitting in the center of your park in the middle of your FREEDOM VALUING country.... is a bold faced middle finger to you're entire ideal base. Yours, mine, all Americans everywhere.

Unless of course, you AGREE with the guy.

[Dazzle1]

Well said BWB

Well that's an impressively ironic comment.

You don't think BLM:

Fry Cops like Bacon
Supporting BDS
tearing down others cultural statues

does not promote hate?

No cop has ever been fried like bacon last I checked...

And fuck those statues. Those were the statues of slavers who claimed to be members of 'the land of the free'. I deserve a statue more than Robert E. Lee does. You want your culture so bad, put up a new statue where his was and make a BETTER culture out of it. Culture isn't good simply by nature of it being there and BAD culture doesn't need to be glorified. It's OKAY, we have history books that discuss this stuff, we won't forget what douche-bags the leaders of the South were anytime soon.

What about Columbus, Grant and Lee?

I don't want a group with I see as anti-Semetic and racist as BLM making that decision. I find their banner hateful, do I have the right to go to Somerville MA and rip it down from City Hall or pour paint over the on 6th Ave in NYC? You bet they would arrest me for that.

JUST to be clear. You don't want 'Anti-semetic's and racist's like BLM' making the decision to remove a statue of a CONFIRMED racist who fought and killed people for the right to OWN other human beings under the banner that he should be FREE to do so in this land where ALL MEN are supposedly created EQUAL... and therefore you'd rather we keep up his statue and others of his Ilk. Gotcha.

You know what? Maybe tearing down the Berlin Wall was a mistake? Some of the people in that crowd maybe represented things that I don't like... so we should have just LEFT UP a symbol of division and separation just to be safe.

Fuck the statues. They were symbols of everything America supposedly stands AGAINST. Racist's and Anti-Semetic's got nothing to do with it. You, as an American, who values freedom and the core concept that all men are created equal, should be able to reason without bothering yourself as to the politics of others... that a statue of a man who fought to own other human beings sitting in the center of your park in the middle of your FREEDOM VALUING country.... is a bold faced middle finger to you're entire ideal base. Yours, mine, all Americans everywhere.

Unless of course, you AGREE with the guy.

Just to be clear who is the confirmed racist? Are you speaking of Columbus, Grant or Lincoln?

The BLM are more like the Cultural Revolution or the book burners of the 1930s.

Hawk Nnewson Tamika Mallory and Ayanna Pressley are as racist as David Duke or any KKK member

[Damselbinder]

Well said BWB

You don't think BLM:

Fry Cops like Bacon
Supporting BDS
tearing down others cultural statues

does not promote hate?

No cop has ever been fried like bacon last I checked...

And fuck those statues. Those were the statues of slavers who claimed to be members of 'the land of the free'. I deserve a statue more than Robert E. Lee does. You want your culture so bad, put up a new statue where his was and make a BETTER culture out of it. Culture isn't good simply by nature of it being there and BAD culture doesn't need to be glorified. It's OKAY, we have history books that discuss this stuff, we won't forget what douche-bags the leaders of the South were anytime soon.

What about Columbus, Grant and Lee?

I don't want a group with I see as anti-Semetic and racist as BLM making that decision. I find their banner hateful, do I have the right to go to Somerville MA and rip it down from City Hall or pour paint over the on 6th Ave in NYC? You bet they would arrest me for that.

JUST to be clear. You don't want 'Anti-semetic's and racist's like BLM' making the decision to remove a statue of a CONFIRMED racist who fought and killed people for the right to OWN other human beings under the banner that he should be FREE to do so in this land where ALL MEN are supposedly created EQUAL... and therefore you'd rather we keep up his statue and others of his Ilk. Gotcha.

You know what? Maybe tearing down the Berlin Wall was a mistake? Some of the people in that crowd maybe represented things that I don't like... so we should have just LEFT UP a symbol of division and separation just to be safe.

Fuck the statues. They were symbols of everything America supposedly stands AGAINST. Racist's and Anti-Semetic's got nothing to do with it. You, as an American, who values freedom and the core concept that all men are created equal, should be able to reason without bothering yourself as to the politics of others... that a statue of a man who fought to own other human beings sitting in the center of your park in the middle of your FREEDOM VALUING country.... is a bold faced middle finger to you're entire ideal base. Yours, mine, all Americans everywhere.

Unless of course, you AGREE with the guy.

Just to be clear who is the confirmed racist? Are you speaking of Columbus, Grant or Lincoln?

The BLM are more like the Cultural Revolution or the book burners of the 1930s.

Hawk Nnewson Tamika Mallory and Ayanna Pressley are as racist as David Duke or any KKK member

Evidence please. What specifically have they done or said that shows that? With cited sources and such. And by "as bad as any KKK member" I take you to mean "are calling for the subjugation or elimination of races other than their own, and asserting the superiority and supremacy of their own race."

[Dazzle1]

Well said BWB

No cop has ever been fried like bacon last I checked...

And fuck those statues. Those were the statues of slavers who claimed to be members of 'the land of the free'. I deserve a statue more than Robert E. Lee does. You want your culture so bad, put up a new statue where his was and make a BETTER culture out of it. Culture isn't good simply by nature of it being there and BAD culture doesn't need to be glorified. It's OKAY, we have history books that discuss this stuff, we won't forget what douche-bags the leaders of the South were anytime soon.

What about Columbus, Grant and Lee?

I don't want a group with I see as anti-Semetic and racist as BLM making that decision. I find their banner hateful, do I have the right to go to Somerville MA and rip it down from City Hall or pour paint over the on 6th Ave in NYC? You bet they would arrest me for that.

JUST to be clear. You don't want 'Anti-semetic's and racist's like BLM' making the decision to remove a statue of a CONFIRMED racist who fought and killed people for the right to OWN other human beings under the banner that he should be FREE to do so in this land where ALL MEN are supposedly created EQUAL... and therefore you'd rather we keep up his statue and others of his Ilk. Gotcha.

You know what? Maybe tearing down the Berlin Wall was a mistake? Some of the people in that crowd maybe represented things that I don't like... so we should have just LEFT UP a symbol of division and separation just to be safe.

Fuck the statues. They were symbols of everything America supposedly stands AGAINST. Racist's and Anti-Semetic's got nothing to do with it. You, as an American, who values freedom and the core concept that all men are created equal, should be able to reason without bothering yourself as to the politics of others... that a statue of a man who fought to own other human beings sitting in the center of your park in the middle of your FREEDOM VALUING country.... is a bold faced middle finger to you're entire ideal base. Yours, mine, all Americans everywhere.

Unless of course, you AGREE with the guy.

Just to be clear who is the confirmed racist? Are you speaking of Columbus, Grant or Lincoln?

The BLM are more like the Cultural Revolution or the book burners of the 1930s.

Hawk Nnewson Tamika Mallory and Ayanna Pressley are as racist as David Duke or any KKK member

Evidence please. What specifically have they done or said that shows that? With cited sources and such. And by "as bad as any KKK member" I take you to mean "are calling for the subjugation or elimination of races other than their own, and asserting the superiority and supremacy of their own race."

3 examples and you do research yourself on others

Now please tell me where you have proof of systemic racism being true in 2020


Three examples
https://radionb.com/news/fox-news-radio ... ip-america

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... for-white/

[Femina]

Well said BWB

You don't think BLM:

Fry Cops like Bacon
Supporting BDS
tearing down others cultural statues

does not promote hate?

No cop has ever been fried like bacon last I checked...

And fuck those statues. Those were the statues of slavers who claimed to be members of 'the land of the free'. I deserve a statue more than Robert E. Lee does. You want your culture so bad, put up a new statue where his was and make a BETTER culture out of it. Culture isn't good simply by nature of it being there and BAD culture doesn't need to be glorified. It's OKAY, we have history books that discuss this stuff, we won't forget what douche-bags the leaders of the South were anytime soon.

What about Columbus, Grant and Lee?

I don't want a group with I see as anti-Semetic and racist as BLM making that decision. I find their banner hateful, do I have the right to go to Somerville MA and rip it down from City Hall or pour paint over the on 6th Ave in NYC? You bet they would arrest me for that.

JUST to be clear. You don't want 'Anti-semetic's and racist's like BLM' making the decision to remove a statue of a CONFIRMED racist who fought and killed people for the right to OWN other human beings under the banner that he should be FREE to do so in this land where ALL MEN are supposedly created EQUAL... and therefore you'd rather we keep up his statue and others of his Ilk. Gotcha.

You know what? Maybe tearing down the Berlin Wall was a mistake? Some of the people in that crowd maybe represented things that I don't like... so we should have just LEFT UP a symbol of division and separation just to be safe.

Fuck the statues. They were symbols of everything America supposedly stands AGAINST. Racist's and Anti-Semetic's got nothing to do with it. You, as an American, who values freedom and the core concept that all men are created equal, should be able to reason without bothering yourself as to the politics of others... that a statue of a man who fought to own other human beings sitting in the center of your park in the middle of your FREEDOM VALUING country.... is a bold faced middle finger to you're entire ideal base. Yours, mine, all Americans everywhere.

Unless of course, you AGREE with the guy.

Just to be clear who is the confirmed racist? Are you speaking of Columbus, Grant or Lincoln?

The BLM are more like the Cultural Revolution or the book burners of the 1930s.

Hawk Nnewson Tamika Mallory and Ayanna Pressley are as racist as David Duke or any KKK member

Cute, but a halfhearted shrug and painfully tiring attempt to ignore the point that's more damning than it is evasory.

I of course mean to speak of Robert E. Lee and his fellow southerners. Say what you will of Grant or Lincoln (I won't bother here to defend Christopher Columbus the great doofus) and theorize how you will, they fought for freedom regardless of their potential reasons, and therefore their statues aren't DIRECT AFFRONTS to the principles of the nation (So far as we know. We can re-examine them when Morty blows the Lincoln Slave Coliseum wide open)

So Robert E. Lee you know, the guy who frontlined the battle to own human beings, confirmed racist. That's the guy whose statues you're defending.

Now please tell me where you have proof of systemic racism being true in 2020

Jesus.F'king.Christ. Google George Floyd.

[ivandobsky]

You know what? Maybe tearing down the Berlin Wall was a mistake?

The difference is that you're supposed to live in a democracy. If you want public property removed, vote for it.

[Damselbinder]

Well said BWB

What about Columbus, Grant and Lee?

I don't want a group with I see as anti-Semetic and racist as BLM making that decision. I find their banner hateful, do I have the right to go to Somerville MA and rip it down from City Hall or pour paint over the on 6th Ave in NYC? You bet they would arrest me for that.

JUST to be clear. You don't want 'Anti-semetic's and racist's like BLM' making the decision to remove a statue of a CONFIRMED racist who fought and killed people for the right to OWN other human beings under the banner that he should be FREE to do so in this land where ALL MEN are supposedly created EQUAL... and therefore you'd rather we keep up his statue and others of his Ilk. Gotcha.

You know what? Maybe tearing down the Berlin Wall was a mistake? Some of the people in that crowd maybe represented things that I don't like... so we should have just LEFT UP a symbol of division and separation just to be safe.

Fuck the statues. They were symbols of everything America supposedly stands AGAINST. Racist's and Anti-Semetic's got nothing to do with it. You, as an American, who values freedom and the core concept that all men are created equal, should be able to reason without bothering yourself as to the politics of others... that a statue of a man who fought to own other human beings sitting in the center of your park in the middle of your FREEDOM VALUING country.... is a bold faced middle finger to you're entire ideal base. Yours, mine, all Americans everywhere.

Unless of course, you AGREE with the guy.

Just to be clear who is the confirmed racist? Are you speaking of Columbus, Grant or Lincoln?

The BLM are more like the Cultural Revolution or the book burners of the 1930s.

Hawk Nnewson Tamika Mallory and Ayanna Pressley are as racist as David Duke or any KKK member

Evidence please. What specifically have they done or said that shows that? With cited sources and such. And by "as bad as any KKK member" I take you to mean "are calling for the subjugation or elimination of races other than their own, and asserting the superiority and supremacy of their own race."

3 examples and you do research yourself on others

Now please tell me where you have proof of systemic racism being true in 2020


Three examples
https://radionb.com/news/fox-news-radio ... ip-america

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... for-white/

Example One: Nothing in that is racist. Inflammatory, sure, but not racist.
Example Two: Yep, fair enough, Farrakhan is a big ol shithead. Why you decide to colour the entire BLM movement through him (funny, isn't this exchange normally the other way around?) I don't know.
Example Three: All she's saying is that white people have a moral responsibility to participate in activism. Even if you thought that was racist, it's hardly KKK level, is it?

You want evidence of systemic racism? Sure thing buddy, here you go:
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-syst ... ?r=US&IR=T

Oh, and if you're not convinced, I can just do what you did and say "you do research yourself on more"

[Femina]

You know what? Maybe tearing down the Berlin Wall was a mistake?

The difference is that you're supposed to live in a democracy. If you want public property removed, vote for it.

If people felt like the democracy was working in their favor (Something that becomes harder and harder to do when presidents are elected against the popular vote) they probably wouldn't feel like they have to tear them down.

I'm not advocating running around committing property damage, I'm saying there's NOTHING lost here and standing on a platform of 'they tore down a statue of a racist!!!! Their the worst!' is crap foundation for a platform.

[ivandobsky]

If people felt like the democracy was working in their favor (Something that becomes harder and harder to do when presidents are elected against the popular vote) they probably wouldn't feel like they have to tear them down.

Not an expert, but imagine it's a matter for local government. For what it's worth, the local government in these cases seems to more often than not be run by the "other side".

I'm not advocating running around committing property damage, I'm saying there's NOTHING lost here and standing on a platform of 'they tore down a statue of a racist!!!! Their the worst!' is crap foundation for a platform.

There's worse people in the world for sure, but few more insufferable. At least Albert Fish didn't see himself as a good guy.

[Femina]

If people felt like the democracy was working in their favor (Something that becomes harder and harder to do when presidents are elected against the popular vote) they probably wouldn't feel like they have to tear them down.

Not an expert, but imagine it's a matter for local government. For what it's worth, the local government in these cases seems to more often than not be run by the "other side".

I'm not advocating running around committing property damage, I'm saying there's NOTHING lost here and standing on a platform of 'they tore down a statue of a racist!!!! Their the worst!' is crap foundation for a platform.

There's worse people in the world for sure, but few more insufferable. At least Albert Fish didn't see himself as a good guy.

That's a silly comparison that doesn't have anything to do with anything. A movement of people large enough to create one of the largest protests in American History aren't equatable with a long dead serial killer.

I don't like tomatoes mom! At least the Snickers bar's don't pretend to be healthy!

[Dazzle1]

You know what? Maybe tearing down the Berlin Wall was a mistake?

The difference is that you're supposed to live in a democracy. If you want public property removed, vote for it.

If people felt like the democracy was working in their favor (Something that becomes harder and harder to do when presidents are elected against the popular vote) they probably wouldn't feel like they have to tear them down.

I'm not advocating running around committing property damage, I'm saying there's NOTHING lost here and standing on a platform of 'they tore down a statue of a racist!!!! Their the worst!' is crap foundation for a platform.

Still have not answered my question on the non confederate ones? And there would nothing lost if we painted over all the BLM murals

[Dazzle1]

Well said BWB



JUST to be clear. You don't want 'Anti-semetic's and racist's like BLM' making the decision to remove a statue of a CONFIRMED racist who fought and killed people for the right to OWN other human beings under the banner that he should be FREE to do so in this land where ALL MEN are supposedly created EQUAL... and therefore you'd rather we keep up his statue and others of his Ilk. Gotcha.

You know what? Maybe tearing down the Berlin Wall was a mistake? Some of the people in that crowd maybe represented things that I don't like... so we should have just LEFT UP a symbol of division and separation just to be safe.

Fuck the statues. They were symbols of everything America supposedly stands AGAINST. Racist's and Anti-Semetic's got nothing to do with it. You, as an American, who values freedom and the core concept that all men are created equal, should be able to reason without bothering yourself as to the politics of others... that a statue of a man who fought to own other human beings sitting in the center of your park in the middle of your FREEDOM VALUING country.... is a bold faced middle finger to you're entire ideal base. Yours, mine, all Americans everywhere.

Unless of course, you AGREE with the guy.

First one is

Y
Just to be clear who is the confirmed racist? Are you speaking of Columbus, Grant or Lincoln?

The BLM are more like the Cultural Revolution or the book burners of the 1930s.

Hawk Nnewson Tamika Mallory and Ayanna Pressley are as racist as David Duke or any KKK member

Evidence please. What specifically have they done or said that shows that? With cited sources and such. And by "as bad as any KKK member" I take you to mean "are calling for the subjugation or elimination of races other than their own, and asserting the superiority and supremacy of their own race."

3 examples and you do research yourself on others

Now please tell me where you have proof of systemic racism being true in 2020


Three examples
https://radionb.com/news/fox-news-radio ... ip-america

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... for-white/

Example One: Nothing in that is racist. Inflammatory, sure, but not racist.
Example Two: Yep, fair enough, Farrakhan is a big ol shithead. Why you decide to colour the entire BLM movement through him (funny, isn't this exchange normally the other way around?) I don't know.
Example Three: All she's saying is that white people have a moral responsibility to participate in activism. Even if you thought that was racist, it's hardly KKK level, is it?

You want evidence of systemic racism? Sure thing buddy, here you go:
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-syst ... ?r=US&IR=T

Oh, and if you're not convinced, I can just do what you did and say "you do research yourself on more"

First one is
The second one: BLM actions and words are racist
Pressley is aprt of theSquad the most racist group in congress since slaveholders were in the chamber and yes black,muslim and hispanic women can are racist most of the CBC is racist and so wasObama

[Femina]

You know what? Maybe tearing down the Berlin Wall was a mistake?

The difference is that you're supposed to live in a democracy. If you want public property removed, vote for it.

If people felt like the democracy was working in their favor (Something that becomes harder and harder to do when presidents are elected against the popular vote) they probably wouldn't feel like they have to tear them down.

I'm not advocating running around committing property damage, I'm saying there's NOTHING lost here and standing on a platform of 'they tore down a statue of a racist!!!! Their the worst!' is crap foundation for a platform.

Still have not answered my question on the non confederate ones? And there would nothing lost if we painted over all the BLM murals

What you mean like the 2% of non confederate statues removed amid the rest? I'd blame that on Mob mentality.

But the BLM movement isn't unique in it's ability to devolve to mob mentality, that's just human nature... but sure, the small portion of non confederate monuments being destroyed are a loss... just they aren't what most of the people protesting are tearing down. The vast majority of them are old glorifications for slavers.

[Mr. X]

Guardian Stats - Seem extremely cherry picked. For example Japan has an extremely low gun murder rate compared to Canada that is 40 times higher. Is Canada bad? And what about Mexico. Yes I'm sure one can cherry pick comparisons all over.

The other thing is take out the top 10 most populated cities in American, in fact yank out Chicago, LA, New York, Detroit and those murder rate numbers drop dramatically. Just look at chicago's murder rate just over the 4th of July.

https://www.latimes.com/nation/nationno ... the%20city.

As for the US being bad it raises a pretty bad issue for progressivism. If the US is still some racist, violent nation as it was 75 years ago (or got worse) and we've had progressivism for about 75 years and the US has become MORE progressive over that 75 years then that means progressivism is a failure. It did not stop or slow racism.

The US is simply the most diverse nation in the western world. Its far more diverse than Denmark, Norway, Sweden. It may have 67% white but that white population is not homogeneous like Denmark's. Irish, Polish, Italian, Greek, German, Slavic.... hardly a banding together. And that doesn't even add in the animosity between religions.

There are more millionaire and billionaire blacks in the US than anywhere else including shear number and per capita. Probably the safest place for LGBT is in the US.

Sorry but the US is not a racist nation. It can't be. It is classist however and racism is a form of classism. But if the US was racist as it was on 1945 then 75 years of progressivism is a failure.

[Dazzle1]

You know what? Maybe tearing down the Berlin Wall was a mistake?

The difference is that you're supposed to live in a democracy. If you want public property removed, vote for it.

If people felt like the democracy was working in their favor (Something that becomes harder and harder to do when presidents are elected against the popular vote) they probably wouldn't feel like they have to tear them down.

I'm not advocating running around committing property damage, I'm saying there's NOTHING lost here and standing on a platform of 'they tore down a statue of a racist!!!! Their the worst!' is crap foundation for a platform.

Still have not answered my question on the non confederate ones? And there would nothing lost if we painted over all the BLM murals

What you mean like the 2% of non confederate statues removed amid the rest? I'd blame that on Mob mentality.

But the BLM movement isn't unique in it's ability to devolve to mob mentality, that's just human nature... but sure, the small portion of non confederate monuments being destroyed are a loss... just they aren't what most of the people protesting are tearing down. The vast majority of them are old glorifications for slavers.

In the last two day, 2 major Columbus statues in Chicago, a major one in Boston's North End, other cities as well, the Grant one in SF.

The point is these Mayor are only catering to one or two groups , primarily BLM. I am sorry they don't speak for most people , the Italian american community was not listened to or even invited to comment.

As a Jew I am over sensitive to brown shirt mobs destroying other groups artifacts

[Femina]

The difference is that you're supposed to live in a democracy. If you want public property removed, vote for it.

If people felt like the democracy was working in their favor (Something that becomes harder and harder to do when presidents are elected against the popular vote) they probably wouldn't feel like they have to tear them down.

I'm not advocating running around committing property damage, I'm saying there's NOTHING lost here and standing on a platform of 'they tore down a statue of a racist!!!! Their the worst!' is crap foundation for a platform.

Still have not answered my question on the non confederate ones? And there would nothing lost if we painted over all the BLM murals

What you mean like the 2% of non confederate statues removed amid the rest? I'd blame that on Mob mentality.

But the BLM movement isn't unique in it's ability to devolve to mob mentality, that's just human nature... but sure, the small portion of non confederate monuments being destroyed are a loss... just they aren't what most of the people protesting are tearing down. The vast majority of them are old glorifications for slavers.

In the last two day, 2 major Columbus statues in Chicago, a major one in Boston's North End, other cities as well, the Grant one in SF.

The point is these Mayor are only catering to one or two groups , primarily BLM. I am sorry they don't speak for most people , the Italian american community was not listened to or even invited to comment.

As a Jew I am over sensitive to brown shirt mobs destroying other groups artifacts

Well I think Columbus sort of fits the bill of the pre-colonial imperialistic asshole who was willing to steamroll over another people in order to acquire whatever the hell he liked. So HE at least I can see the ribbon of connective tissue... It's not really a big secret that Columbus was kind of a dunce... like a major major dunce... should probably go ahead and rip down a few Jackson statues over the whole Trail of Tears debacle while their at it.

As for catering to groups... well that's the sort of perks you get when you protest en masse. That's sort of the whole point of protesting, to be recognized, heard and have your grievances aired and responded to. It SHOULDN'T require protests and rioting to get the government to roll off its ass and get shit done, but at least some places seem willing to do just that when enough people are screaming about it on their lawn.

[bushwackerbob]

If people felt like the democracy was working in their favor (Something that becomes harder and harder to do when presidents are elected against the popular vote) they probably wouldn't feel like they have to tear them down.

I'm not advocating running around committing property damage, I'm saying there's NOTHING lost here and standing on a platform of 'they tore down a statue of a racist!!!! Their the worst!' is crap foundation for a platform.

Still have not answered my question on the non confederate ones? And there would nothing lost if we painted over all the BLM murals

What you mean like the 2% of non confederate statues removed amid the rest? I'd blame that on Mob mentality.

But the BLM movement isn't unique in it's ability to devolve to mob mentality, that's just human nature... but sure, the small portion of non confederate monuments being destroyed are a loss... just they aren't what most of the people protesting are tearing down. The vast majority of them are old glorifications for slavers.

In the last two day, 2 major Columbus statues in Chicago, a major one in Boston's North End, other cities as well, the Grant one in SF.

The point is these Mayor are only catering to one or two groups , primarily BLM. I am sorry they don't speak for most people , the Italian american community was not listened to or even invited to comment.

As a Jew I am over sensitive to brown shirt mobs destroying other groups artifacts

Well I think Columbus sort of fits the bill of the pre-colonial imperialistic asshole who was willing to steamroll over another people in order to acquire whatever the hell he liked. So HE at least I can see the ribbon of connective tissue... It's not really a big secret that Columbus was kind of a dunce... like a major major dunce... should probably go ahead and rip down a few Jackson statues over the whole Trail of Tears debacle while their at it.

As for catering to groups... well that's the sort of perks you get when you protest en masse. That's sort of the whole point of protesting, to be recognized, heard and have your grievances aired and responded to. It SHOULDN'T require protests and rioting to get the government to roll off its ass and get shit done, but at least some places seem willing to do just that when enough people are screaming about it on their lawn.

I get the urge to get out there and protest and make yourselves heard and raise awareness for issues. I find that to be a perfectly fine and you could even call it a patriotic thing to do. I just hate the violence, riots, and general mayhem that have accompanied some of these peaceful protests. I think the laudable goal of raising awareness of some of these issues gets muddled when a bunch of idiots try to piggyback on top of that raising awareness goal in order to cause chaos and violence, that those actions do nothing to further their cause and it makes it easier for people who might be otherwise be sympathetic to the plight of African American causes to dismiss or be critical of the overall issues. Just as we must do better to create an environment where people of all races are treated equally and with dignity and grace with love for our fellow man, at the same time we must also follow the rule of law and of course that means not destroying our own communities by looting businesses, setting places on fire, and not using protests as an excuse to let loose and behave in an irresponsible manner like hooligans. Those kind of actions do not help matters.

[Femina]

Well, just to once again reiterate. I'm NOT actually advising that anyone run off and start ripping down statues on their own or with a mob with ropes and pulleys and fury... I mean somebody is gonna get hurt eventually. I'm simply noting that the majority of the statues being torn down aren't a great loss as they, for the most part, represent a perversion of the CORE of what America was MEANT to be. So if we lose a bunch of statues of slavers and racists (Yeah and Columbus I guess... if he was all that important to you... And the confederate flag! Don't even get me started on the Confederate F'king Flag), we might all wake up in the morning to some fresher air, metaphorically speaking.

The fact we have citizens who feel put upon enough to take it upon themselves to physically remove these statutes illegally says more to me about the state of things. These statues should have been voted gone (along with the CONFEDERATE FUCKING FLAG!!!!) a long long time ago.

[Dazzle1]

Well, just to once again reiterate. I'm NOT actually advising that anyone run off and start ripping down statues on their own or with a mob with ropes and pulleys and fury... I mean somebody is gonna get hurt eventually. I'm simply noting that the majority of the statues being torn down aren't a great loss as they, for the most part, represent a perversion of the CORE of what America was MEANT to be. So if we lose a bunch of statues of slavers and racists (Yeah and Columbus I guess... if he was all that important to you... And the confederate flag! Don't even get me started on the Confederate F'king Flag), we might all wake up in the morning to some fresher air, metaphorically speaking.

The fact we have citizens who feel put upon enough to take it upon themselves to physically remove these statutes illegally says more to me about the state of things. These statues should have been voted gone (along with the CONFEDERATE FUCKING FLAG!!!!) a long long time ago.

Just for me to be clear the Confederate statues I have no problem with. Nor the Confederate flag. But I don't want it being done because BLM or any activists comitt violence , which is why the Mayor of Chicago caved in

Appeasing the current activists is dangerous just look at Seattle and Portland where Antifa(which is a domestic terror group) is trying to burn the cities down

[Damselbinder]

I think most members of Antifa are a bunch of dweebs, but nevertheless:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ing-antifa

[Mr. X]

I think most members of Antifa are a bunch of dweebs, but nevertheless:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ing-antifa

Yeah but there's no clear record of American Nazis killing anyone either. The Charlottesville driver is still out on motives. Even so that is maybe 1:0 which isn't saying much.
Also we could look BLM and the shooting of police officers. The Dallas BLm sniper for example.

Not exactly a great dipstick given the property damage, assaults etc. And what is labelled "antifa"? Is the gunning down of a driver in the CHAZ in Seattle an antifa act? A Chaz act?

[Damselbinder]

1) Neo-Nazis are morally reprehensible, with no ambiguity at all, even if they haven't killed anyone. Holding Nazi beliefs is inherently evil.
2) The Dallas "BLM sniper" claimed he wasn't part of any particular group. How often have right-wing-ly motivated murderers been denounced by larger right wing movements/organisations? If it's okay for them, it's okay for BLM.
3) You conflate antifa and BLM with no distinction.
4) Antifa are bad. Maybe they're really bad. Maybe everything you say about them is true and they're bastards. It doesn't mean Neo-Nazis aren't bad. It doesn't mean the BLM movement is wrong. It doesn't mean America isn't racially unjust. Maybe all those things happen to be true as well - but Antifa being bad wouldn't prove it.

[Mr. X]

"1) Neo-Nazis are morally reprehensible, with no ambiguity at all, even if they haven't killed anyone. Holding Nazi beliefs is inherently evil."
So's communism.

"2) The Dallas "BLM sniper" claimed he wasn't part of any particular group. How often have right-wing-ly motivated murderers been denounced by larger right wing movements/organisations? If it's okay for them, it's okay for BLM."
That's fine but then the reverse applies to BLM and Antifa. Can't collectively blame in convenience. If someone exposed antifa beliefs and then kills someone is that criteria to blame Antifa?

As for Micah Xavier Johnson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_shoo ... e_officers

"Chief Brown said that Johnson, who was black, was upset about recent police shootings and "stated he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers."[

So here's a great example of someone exposing similar views to BLM. Is he supporting BLM views? The NC driver also exposed neo-nazi views... is he representative of neo-nazis?

"3) You conflate antifa and BLM with no distinction."
I'm pointing to groups outright committing violence. BLM is calling for the death of cops. Antifa is committing violence. So where are all these neo-nazis? I don't see them setting Portland on fire? WHO is antifa actually fighting? Where are those Nazis?

"4) Antifa are bad. Maybe they're really bad. Maybe everything you say about them is true and they're bastards. It doesn't mean Neo-Nazis aren't bad. It doesn't mean the BLM movement is wrong. It doesn't mean America isn't racially unjust. Maybe all those things happen to be true as well - but Antifa being bad wouldn't prove it."

First off that's a strawman. The US flat out is not racially unjust unless you want to consider drowning blacks in welfare, encouraging single moms and treating blacks like special needs kids and promoting affirmative action.
WHERE ARE THE NAZIS!? Please show me? I don't see NAZIS making their own CHAZ. I don't see Nazis burning buildings or attacking people or turning Portland into a riot zone. So something like 27 Nazis in NC is the BIG threat? If they were a threat then why isn't there a recorded spike of black deaths in NC? In fact the only places that have huge black death rates are large cities like Chicago, LA etc... cities run mostly by democrats,

Ok if antifa is fighting Nazis why aren't they in NC fighting there? Why are they in portland? Portland has been a progressive, left leaning city since probably the early 1990s.... they would be a progressive utopia by now. So why fight there? Where are all these Nazis in Portland. Please show us?

WHERE ARE ALL THESE NAZIS? Skokie?

[Damselbinder]

I think most members of Antifa are a bunch of dweebs, but nevertheless:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ing-antifa

Yeah but there's no clear record of American Nazis killing anyone either. The Charlottesville driver is still out on motives. Even so that is maybe 1:0 which isn't saying much.
Also we could look BLM and the shooting of police officers. The Dallas BLm sniper for example.

Not exactly a great dipstick given the property damage, assaults etc. And what is labelled "antifa"? Is the gunning down of a driver in the CHAZ in Seattle an antifa act? A Chaz act?

Pardon me, Mr X. You brought up Nazism. Not me. I only made the comparison because you did too.

[tallyho]

Alright, calm heads people.

I saw this today and I hoped those days were left in the 60s

Screenshot_20200727-212407~2.png (1.02 MiB) Viewed 3210 times

[tallyho]

She should have kept her mask up of course.

[Bert]

The US flat out is not racially unjust unless you want to consider drowning blacks in welfare, encouraging single moms and treating blacks like special needs kids and promoting affirmative action.

These opinions are revolting. I will no longer be reading Mr. X's posts.