Captain Marvel Costume & Plot reveals

[Philo Hunter]

What I am NOT saying is that I think sex appeal being in Captain Marvel is a bad thing, I'm only saying that if there ISN'T sex appeal in Captain Marvel it isn't the end of the world, and it could STILL be an amazing film that isn't a waste of time, and that it doesn't have to mean it's some 'SJW' Conspiracy either.

Also Shevek (and maybe Mr. X) both seem to have argued in many threads that a very SPECIFIC kind of sex appeal is the only valid one. Looking at the concept art for the movie I think that's a very sexy heroine. She's not overly sexualized (which is a totally different thing), but she's still sexy as hell. A woman can be "butch" or have short hair and still be hella hot. She can kick ass in practical shoes and be hot. That's okay if those things don't do it for you, Shvek, but you constantly seem to be equating what YOU think of sexy as universal and painting anyone with differing sexual tastes as being invalid and almost inhuman. You throw around the term "SJW" as if its not just an insult, but referring to another species. It feels like your intentionally dehumanizing anyone who presents an opinion you disagree with, which definitely muddies the waters of any argument your trying to have and puts people on guard. You might not realize your being so insulting, but you ARE and it makes people want to push back.

We've all heard your opinions countless times. And we know if we dare mention a contemporary character/comic your going to appear as if by magic and going into your normal rant. Personally, because of that, I don't really see any point in even trying to discuss mainstream comics on this sight. Because you (shevek) and a few other people are going to ensure the thread turns out just like this one. So what would be the point?

[shevek]

Lionbadger - I'm not really that angry about anything..I'm just pointing some stuff out. I'm not in a fit of rage, ever. In fact I'm quite a happy person. I'm sorry if the internet fails to convey that, but of course, those are the drawbacks of text. I think we can all calm down, my friend

One of the reasons I post all the comic book threads about sexy/fetishy comics is because that approach is *threatened* in comics. For a long time, almost all superheroines in comics were drawn sexily. This was true up until the mid-2000s, in fact. Now, the sexy comics are somewhat few and far between. So I like to feature the ones that do it right!

But that was all before the millennial Social Justice types took over the blogosphere etc.
Many comics these days (mainly the SJW Marvel ones, and a bunch of the politically correct Image books) are veering away from the "objectification"
approach because they catch shit from the Tumblr types who complain if they're too exploitative. What's pathetic about the Tumblr crowd is that they don't actually *buy* the comics. They just sit around tweeting and complaining about them. So I think it's relevant to publicize those comics that still do have that sexy approach..some even do it in a very sophisticated manner (like the comic Sex). Because this forum isn't about neo-puritanism, it's about full-on fetish. So let's go ahead and celebrate it and feature it. And not succumb to that SJW attitude.

And the fact that you haven't heard the term "SJW" anywhere just means you haven't been looking at Youtube, Tumblr and Twitter.
It's been a thing for years, and when criticizing the Marvel output for the past three years, the term is very heavily used. So get used to it
-----------------

Femina: Sorry I didn't mean to lump you in with Philo. In fact, it was actually Philo who lumped you in by expressing how much he liked your sentiment about mainstream media and sexy media remaining separate, so I ran with that more than I should have, I guess. Obviously you're two separate people. I've always respected your opinion and I've liked your Femina character stories, as you know. I also think Philo's comics are cool as well, and I like some characters of his such as Champion Girl, and many of his stories are quite intense.

Regarding Captain Marvel the film, once again the jury is out, but from what I can see of the costume and the actress it does look like it'll be sexy in parts. My complaint was in fact NOT with the film (which we don't know enough about to judge yet) but with the recent depiction of Captain Marvel
in the comics as the pseudo-lesbian militarist. And on the contrary, in the comics, Femina, there IS a 'SJW Conspiracy' driving such depictions. That, in fact, is why most of the Marvel Comics roster has gone to shit and why they have all these terrible fun-killing Mary Sue characters dominating their promotional roster. If you don't see the pattern, you haven't been looking at enough new Marvel titles.

I agree with you- I think the concept art does show a dedication to getting the costume right. And also skintight. So let's hope for the best and maybe
they'll come out with a movie that excites and engages *everyone*..certainly they'll be taking whatever lessons they can from the success of Wonder Woman.

[lionbadger]

One of the reasons I post all the comic book threads about sexy/fetishy comics is because that approach is *threatened* in comics. For a long time, almost all superheroines in comics were drawn sexily. This was true up until the mid-2000s, in fact. Now, the sexy comics are somewhat few and far between. So I like to feature the ones that do it right!

But that was all before the millennial Social Justice types took over the blogosphere etc.
Many comics these days (mainly the SJW Marvel ones, and a bunch of the politically correct Image books) are veering away from the "objectification"

But that dosen't really stack up. Your grudge is generally with Marvel (who do seem to be trying something different, probably because main biz is movies and I doubt there is any real fan crossover) and the mean kids who 'tuk ur boobz!'. If there is plenty to keep you satiated why even waste the energy on your hated tumblr pandering nemises? Let the market work and in a couple of years you'll have all the senior air force officers you want zipping around in thong cut swimsuits and thigh highs.

To keep you ticking over, here's the original Captain Marvel concept Creativore did for me about a year ago (I think, time is galloping)

[Philo Hunter]

But that was all before the millennial Social Justice types took over the blogosphere etc.
Many comics these days (mainly the SJW Marvel ones, and a bunch of the politically correct Image books) are veering away from the "objectification"

Yes, because that is for a large part what my generation wants to both see and create in its mainstream comics. You are under no obligation to purchase them and you still have PLENTY of choices out there. Change happens, as we millennials inherit the Earth your just going to have to it used to it.

[shevek]

Lionbadger - Yes I mainly have the "grudge" with Marvel because its SJW-ism is so overwhelming. So do a lot of the comic critics on Youtube if you watch their videos, just look and see for yourself. Marvel is not just a few select books with heavy-handed messages, like at Image.

Over at Marvel, almost *all* the books are infected with the SJW-ism (I'd say over 75% easily), and this is because the editors at the top are pushing that policy, and they are hiring Tumblrinas who believe in the SJW mission which is to tell everyone how you are better than them and how you are living your life wrong. So the entire in-house editorial staff at Marvel are SJWs, which makes their philosophy impossible to avoid. And I'm not "wasting energy" on Marvel..do you see me writing about many of their books in the comics forum? Hardly any.

Thanks for the the Captain Marvel pinup pix. Very hot stuff.

Philo- I've gotta disagree here: your entire generation doesn't want to see SJW stuff rampant in comics. Just the "woke" segment of it. Which is a small but insanely vocal majority. And on top of that, the "woke" segment often doesn't buy comics anyway. And meanwhile, the vast majority of mainstream millennials don't buy comics at all, and don't think about SJW stuff, so it's not on their radar.

Nothing's going to "change" as millennials inherit the Earth. Especially because the vast majority of young people today don't even live in Western countries anyway.

[Heroine Addict]

You keep stating that "SJWs" don't read comics, as if it's a proven fact. What's your research for this claim? Standing next to the counter in your local comic shop for a while?

Do you have an actual breakdown of the groups who purchase comics? And how can you measure SJW buying habits anyway? SJW is a pejorative defined by the name-caller, not an actual group whose buying habits can be analyzed in any meaningful way. Are you just relying on your own observation?

Titles shipped in June: http://comichron.com/monthlycomicssales ... 17-06.html

Which groups do read comics, anyway? It seems Superman #25 shipped a mere 50,873 copies in June. Action Comics #981 shipped 42,520. These are Superman titles. The most iconic superhero in this genre is at 27th position with pathetic circulation.

Sure, the newfangled lady Mighty Thor isn't doing so great with 42,643 units shipped. She is beating the Daddy of this genre Action Comics, though.

If comics existed in isolation, the industry would be unsustainable. Fortunately, we have WB and Disney to prop up the two biggest publishers as a testing ground for concepts to be used in movies and TV shows which will be seen by many millions of people.

Such as the forthcoming Captain Marvel movie. Which has some sexy concept art.

[Philo Hunter]

You keep stating that "SJWs" don't read comics, as if it's a proven fact. What's your research for this claim? Standing next to the counter in your local comic shop for a while?

Do you have an actual breakdown of the groups who purchase comics? And how can you measure SJW buying habits anyway? SJW is a pejorative defined by the name-caller, not an actual group whose buying habits can be analyzed in any meaningful way. Are you just relying on your own observation?

Exactly. It's a useless term other than to the people using it as an insult. It's just a way to "other" people whom you either disagree with or whose opinions you dislike. There is no SJW club, no one is giving out cards, and the longer its been used in the manner that Shevek uses it the more its become a dog-whistle term that identifies a specific group of very angry and mostly white men. If you haven't been hanging out in the cesspool of the internet watching youtube videos on gamergate and reading men's rights activists and sitting through their youtube videos it pretty damn easy to have never heard the term at all.

Giving Shevek the benefit of the doubt and kindly transforming the word "SJW" into "Millennial", so that we aren't just name calling and are actually saying something of value, and even going as far as to assume that group of people buys comics less that older customers, which again has not been proven at all, that still doesn't MEAN much. I'm a millennial. I dye my hair and hang out on Tumblr a lot. So it seems like I'm one of these horible people he's always on about. I read a TON of comics. My personal library is over three and half book shelves large and always growing, almost all of it Marvel stuff. But you know how much of my collection is single issue "comics"? Zero. Zilch. Not a one. It's all hard covers and trade paperbacks. So that means every one of my purchases wouldn't even show up on the kinds of sales lists people use since I'm not even getting the chance to buy "comics" till at least six months after they come out.

And I am far from alone in my buying habit. Almost everyone I know in the real world that's my age or younger prefers to buy and read comics this way. It's cheaper. You get a much closer to full story arc in one setting. You don't have to wait months and deal with the fact that if you don't reserve it ahead of time you might miss issues here and there. And there's the fact that tpb are easier to find if your looking for older stuff. Oh yeah, and paying whatever the going price for a single issues and getting like 10 pages of content and 5 of ads just sucks. It's a shitty business model and many many people are moving away from it, towards tpb or reading things digitally. Going just by the sales of single issue comics is only going to show you the kind of things that are popular with the kind of people that still enjoy buying single issue comics.

[shevek]

Heroine Addict & Philo - Yes, the Captain Marvel movie has some sexy concept art. Looking forward to seeing more.

In addition to the sales figures on Comichron (which show almost no SJW-Marvel titles doing well in sales, and remember those numbers are comics *shipped* not sold) for single issues, there's also a TPB sales list, see below. That list shows almost no SJW Marvel tps with any significant sales. The SJW titles which sell well are the Image ones (WicDiv, Saga and Bitch Planet).

Philo- Yes, another thing you and I have in common besides enjoying sexy superheroines is that we both pretty much just buy TPBs. I have almost five shelves full now. You're right it's a practice that makes sense. With digital sales, it's hard to tell what's going because those figures aren't released. I think one of the reasons comic companies don't release digital sales figures is that the amount of piracy is so rampant that it's embarrassing.

Philo: I'll have to disagree with you about millennials. I think you are an outlier. I think with your creation of sexy superheroine comics and erotic fiction, and your membership in Tumblr, you don't represent the average millennial at all! What you are closer is the average millennial
librarian - the kind with the nose piercing and the tattoos who buys TPBs with social justice messages (like Kamala Khan) to put in the "teen section" of the library so that the disadvantaged kids who check out the books can get a politically correct agenda preached to them.

[lionbadger]

That list shows almost no SJW Marvel tps with any significant sales. The SJW titles which sell well are the Image ones (WicDiv, Saga and Bitch Planet).

Ah ok, I see it now, you set a comic in the UK and it's an SJW agenda

Because it's chock full of "sexy" characters, so can't be that,

[shevek]

Lionbadger, we already went over the WicDiv thing a year ago - please see the Comics subforum. This was the last thing I said in response to what you said in that thread. It still stands. And WicDiv, though an SJW book, is NOT an SJW Marvel book, which was part of my point in mentioning its prominence at #1 on the TPB sales list. Readers are *not* buying the hell out of WicDiv because of its leftist politics, they're buying it because the story and the characters are so good.

"I understand very well that WicDiv is a commentary on British culture now. And the point is that British culture is extremely politically correct. "London has fallen", remember? So namedropping PC terms is just something Brits in the arts do a lot. In America we don't do that so much, such activity is reserved mainly for progressives, anarchists, and the academic left. You don't see references to PC buzzwords like cultural appropriation, rape culture and objectification in everyday talk here. So it stands out for me when I see it, and I think there certainly is a tendency to talk about political correctness a whole lot in WicDiv. I brought up many instances, how can you deny it?

I also said clearly that I don't think the series suffers for it. I agree with you that it's very good. I don't think Saga suffers for beating you over the head with pacifism either.

And still, don't you think it's interesting that they've picked very few Gods of Colour even though the cast seems deliberately created for diversity purposes?

And yes, I agree the Tara segment is sad, but I also think it squeezes tears from the reader for sympathy. "Oh, look at this beautiful woman, doesn't she have it so terrible..because of society?"

[sugarcoater]

Two issues with some of the arguments:

1. "It seems Superman #25 shipped a mere 50,873 copies in June. Action Comics #981 shipped 42,520. These are Superman titles. The most iconic superhero in this genre is at 27th position with pathetic circulation....Sure, the newfangled lady Mighty Thor isn't doing so great with 42,643 units shipped. She is beating [Superman sales]."

The problem with that argument is that Superman is featured in multiple Superman titles as well as many team books, many more per month than Thor. How can 42,000 sales of Thor be considered beating 93,000 sales of just two of Superman's monthly books.

2. The movie industry can't be compared or connected to the comic industry. There was never an extended amount of releases of the sexy version of heroines replaced by conservative and de-sexualized heroines.

[sugarcoater]

And SJW comic purchases would need some sort of quantitative data in order to accurately state the claim that they aren't heavily involved in buying comics. And who knows, maybe SJW-themed comics would sell a ton of comics to SJWs and thereby provide all sorts of new revenue to Marvel, DC and others.

That said, I haven't bought comics in years after 23 years of regular purchases. The stories seem either too trite or overly indulgent in lame complexities; the characters have been altered in contrived ways, some to the extent that they are no longer recognizable; the artwork isn't as good; and the multiple reboots and re-numbering of many classic titles just killed them for me (why disregard your own historical run for the sake of a few "collector's editions" or some jumping-on point that could be done without starting over?).

[Femina]

I sincerely hope that the entire generation of Millennials are not seriously being delegated the title of 'SJW' (as a slur) with how often and ready the term 'SJW' is bandied on this forum and elsewhere. You can't look at an ENTIRE generation of human beings and complain that 'these people all have this agenda to change the world!' OF COURSE their going to change the world, they're an entire generation of human beings raised at the same time, who went to school at the same time who came up with their own values and opinions about the world we all live in together. YOUR generation changed the world to, and your parents generation didn't like your choices either. While it's a tough thing to have to come to grips with sometimes, the older your generation is the LESS important it is to the world. The Millennials are more important to current day social and economic politics than the generation that came before it (and that generation more than the one that came before IT) because by and large, the older the generation the less economic stability it is offering to a country, and the more resources it is actively pulling.

That's all sort of here and there in terms of 'comics' and whose buying them I expect but what I really just mean is this. If you really believe that SJW is a stand in for ALL THE MILLENIALS (And again I sincerely hope this is NOT the case), than I would finally realize why the whole thing smacks of conspiracy theory, because if ALL the Millenials are the 'SJW's then it isn't some nefarious AGENDA, it's what they actually honestly believe, which means that everyone who thinks the Millenials are conspiring against them needs to grow up, act their age and get over themselves.

In even more basic terms still. Your parents didn't like your music either, but listening to it didn't mean you were conspiring against their generation. It's just the music you wanted to listen to.

[Mr. X]

If it were just people making something new then I would embrace that. I think Star Wars and Star Trek need to die and new things created so this generation has their cool thing.

But a fair amount of what's being seen in comics and over into movies is NOT new. Its re-imaging and not in a good way. Its making a dude a chic or a straight a gay or cis into non-cis then thinking this is new.

Changing things out of rebellion or worse, changing things cause you hate the fan base and just want to f&%k them is not making original stuff.

By all means make new stuff. Please make new stuff. Turning Thor into a chic then screaming "if you don't like it you're sexist" is NOT new stuff.

In fact one thing I would love to do is take some thing that millennial created that is theirs and they love and "re-image" it and just swap a whole lotta stuff just to see how they like it but I can't.... they make nothing new. At least the main stream does not. Yes TV, Movies need to boot out the oldies and let the new kids play. But it has to be NEW. Don't take Spiderman and just gender bend him or race bend him, make someone new and then support that character.

In fact the current methodology for changing characters is very disturbing. The old characters don't die or just go away... their powers, their identity are literally sucked out of them and given to someone else who did nothing other than be sweet. Jane getting Thor's powers. Super Awesome Hulk. Riri Williams and Ironman. Steve Rodgers.... also LOOSE their powers, titles etc and given to someone else. Reeks of 1925 Russia stealing farms and redistributing them.

One reason I think millennials do this is because they are stuck with someone else's hand me downs like getting your brother's stained jeans. Of course you don't care.

If millenials had something of their own I think they would be less hesitant about shredding something else.

[shevek]

Femina, I have said NUMEROUS times that the problem is not *all millennials* but rather a small 'woke' minority that does all the screaming and participates in the endless outrage culture. I've made this clear. Let's keep making this clear. 'Woke' people are actively killing fun in comics. Millennials as a whole are only *passively* killing comics by not participating in print idea. One is a driven agenda, the other is a technological paradigm shift.

Mr. X is right, though: as a whole, the millennials rarely make anything new. They're so immersed in a postmodernist aesthetic of re-imagining and re-pastiching everything that came before that many of them don't even realize it. Stranger Things is X-Files meets The Goonies meets Stand By Me. And I think to some extent Mr. X is making a good point: millennials have so little they can call their own, that all they can really do (at least the 'woke' segment of them) is overuse the hell out of 'buzzwords' they've adopted ('problematic'. 'cultural appropriation'. 'white cis male', even the new one 'anti-normalization'..all of those terms were invented by previous generations of activists) to shred the ideas of generations that came before.

[Visitor]

All these media products are now being sold by large, large corporations that bought up smaller ones that created them. These new owners want to limit their risks by using established brands to sell things. Now they will change them to fit their ideas of what will sell, but ultimately they would rather used something with an established market rather than something original.

That's why for decades Hollywood movie studios would buy the rights to existing books and comic books. There were already people out there that bought them and would likely by tickets to see a movie version. Their idea of something original were cartoon shorts since that hadn't existed before and once a character was successful, it was imitated.

Something completely new is risky. That's why Star Trek was pitched as Wagon Train (established western) to the stars. Star Wars was a space opera. Indiana Jones was an update of the old serial adventure reels. There are very few successful and completely original works.

[Femina]

Femina, I have said NUMEROUS times that the problem is not *all millennials* but rather a small 'woke' minority that does all the screaming and participates in the endless outrage culture. I've made this clear. Let's keep making this clear. 'Woke' people are actively killing fun in comics. Millennials as a whole are only *passively* killing comics by not participating in print idea. One is a driven agenda, the other is a technological paradigm shift.

Mr. X is right, though: as a whole, the millennials rarely make anything new. They're so immersed in a postmodernist aesthetic of re-imagining and re-pastiching everything that came before that many of them don't even realize it. Stranger Things is X-Files meets The Goonies meets Stand By Me. And I think to some extent Mr. X is making a good point: millennials have so little they can call their own, that all they can really do (at least the 'woke' segment of them) is overuse the hell out of 'buzzwords' they've adopted ('problematic'. 'cultural appropriation'. 'white cis male', even the new one 'anti-normalization'..all of those terms were invented by previous generations of activists) to shred the ideas of generations that came before.

Stranger Things is only all those things stitched together if you're being EXTREMELY unfair. It's easy to forget that the current generation isn't inheriting the same world that we did, (and we a different world than our parents) It's easy to say 'just make something wholly original' but it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to actually do that because where once upon a time Mark Twain's 'Tom Sawyer' was one of maybe ten new stories that came out that year TOTAL and surprised an entire world of people who couldn't imagine what life was like living in some place as far from their wildest hopes of EVER traveling as the Mississippi, WE live in a world where we have hundreds if not thousands of stories a year (and as the population explodes that ratio only intensifies) and that there is essentially nothing in the world we can't imagine or haven't seen courtesy of the internet/television/video games/comic books etc. Stranger things intentionally borrows an ambiance and style of old Spielberg films like E.T. and Stand By Me etc. But it puts them all together in a new and interesting way while also glorifying WHY those films and that style were so good Really to expect anyone to come up with something 'completely original' today is asking for the impossible. We live in a world where half the original ideas people come up with have already been thought up and turned into something by someone whose sole defining characteristic in terms of their concepts quality was just that he or she was lucky enough to be born sooner than the second guy. James Cameron's Avatar is about the single most original thing that's come out in decades and it isn't at all free of derivatives. We don't live in an Original world, we mapped the globe, there's nothing 'new' to discover and as such we are essentially reaching the end of 'realistic imagination' because of that. Yeah I could write a book about Glipglop of the sponge people from Blastolise Prime whose poops rainbows while he goes about his completely random and ordinary life... but no one is gonna read it cause it's a stupid idea. (Valerian and the city of a Thousand Planets anybody?)

I'm not saying I think this means it's okay to have Thor Swap genders (I've been clear enough in my own opinions on why that was stupid) but I mean... Marvel didn't come up with Thor either. The Vikings did, and really he isn't anything at all in line with Norse Mythology, he wasn't an original creation either, they just took him and did their own thing with him. Superman may have been the first 'superhero' insofar as Marvel and DC's joint trademark on the word (Yeah that's a thing, they even send out cease and deist orders when other people put 'superhero' in the titles of the things they make... cause their assholes) but the IDEA of a 'superhero' goes as far back, or farther, as Greek Mythology! (which is a veritable smorgasbord of superheroes doing unbelievable and entertaining things)

Look I'm rambling now, my point is, It's a lot harder to be 'original' than it seems when you're watching the fifth terrible Transformers film and wishing for something new, and it's EASY to complain about a lack of originality. That difficulty is why when we DO see something new we get a excited and remember what it was like to be a kid when we still saw and experienced new things, but it isn't rare because no one wants or is willing to make new things, it's rare because we have been neck deep in whats even possible for us to imagine now for a long time... and that isn't the Millenials fault, it isn't your fault, it isn't anybodies fault, it's just the natural progression of time on a sentient species.

[shevek]

Stranger Things was just an example that I picked out of the air - it doesn't need to be focused on specifically. Yes, we have reached "peak television" and "peak comics" and peak social media in general to the point where there's only so much one can actually see. No wonder a lot of it begins to look the same even if there's creativity behind it.

That whole "there's nothing new to discover" scenario is basically Fukuyama's End of History writ culturally large, and I agree. It's not the End of History per se, it's just the death and decadence of Western culture. And yes, it isn't necessarily the Millennials' fault, they just happened to come to maturity in an era when Western ideas have mostly dried up.

Superheroes in pop culture are simply the modern equivalent of ancient mythology - this has been talked about many times in treatises that have analyzed the history of comics, so we needn't rehash that.

As for Valerian, it was based on a comic book that is extremely popular in France and its surrounding countries, and it's a classic space opera which is old enough (late 60s was when it began) that it directly influenced the likes of Star Wars. The movie itself (which I finally saw on Sat night) was an absolute visual masterpiece. The story and the acting were so-so, but that's not why it flopped. It flopped because it went up against movies that had a proven franchise (Spiderman, Apes) while nobody in the U.S. knew what the hell Valerian is, and the previews that were created spent too much time trying to wow people with visuals. I really don't think people care that much about visuals in a movie unless they're going take drugs while watching it (which Valerian is actually perfect for).

[Femina]

As for Valerian, it was based on a comic book that is extremely popular in France and its surrounding countries, and it's a classic space opera which is old enough (late 60s was when it began) that it directly influenced the likes of Star Wars. The movie itself (which I finally saw on Sat night) was an absolute visual masterpiece. The story and the acting were so-so, but that's not why it flopped. It flopped because it went up against movies that had a proven franchise (Spiderman, Apes) while nobody in the U.S. knew what the hell Valerian is, and the previews that were created spent too much time trying to wow people with visuals. I really don't think people care that much about visuals in a movie unless they're going take drugs while watching it (which Valerian is actually perfect for).

Could be... I don't think it's that people don't care about visuals, just that they need more. We like to see things we've never seen before... but I suspect we also like it to have its own internalized logic and 'sense' which is why something like Star Wars is STILL popular. It's visuals are sometimes strange and intriguing... but also make sense within the source. Every time I saw a trailer for Valerian, it sorta seemed like 'pretty chaos' I mean it's in the name right? 'City of a Thousand Planets' kind of indicates that everything will be different from the last bit and little of it will feel connected to itself.



BUT REALLY, this thread has sort of stopped being much about Captain Marvel's costume or plot reveals at this point so.......

The skulls right?

[lionbadger]

BUT REALLY, this thread has sort of stopped being much about Captain Marvel's costume or plot reveals at this point so.......
The skulls right?

[shevek]

OK..this point I'm about to make *is* about "Captain Marvel's costume"..so bear with me....

Here is a British comics critic named Mim Headroom who makes a very detailed and cogent meta-analysis of the appearance of Captain Marvel (whom he jokingly calls "Carl Danvers" a couple times) in her current comic. He doesn't rail about "sjws" or get political. He just deconstructs CM piece by piece, contrasting her against Aurora who appears in the same CM comic and is obviously female, against Gamora and Nebula (who appear much more obviously female in the Gamora comic), as well as against the premium statue of Captain Marvel that's being sold, which is also very curvy and sexy. (And notice that MIM uses a sexier version of CM in his thumbnail, which is probably from one of the previous DeConnick runs, to further drive home the point that Marvel has a definite *choice* of how to represent this character in this costume)

So, Marvel isn't even consistent in trying to de-sexualize the character (or maybe, Marvel just doesn't have editorial control over the statue's appearance)? Either way, this negative opinion about Captain Marvel's current androgyny is one that many online comics critics hold. And I do think that if Brie Larson looks even somewhat beautiful and feminine in the movie (and I hope she does), that the comic representation will have to be somewhat "re-feminized" in response to the movie. Again, we'll see, but I'm pointing out that there is definitely an argument to be made here and a sentiment of disappointment about the character that many do have.

Fair enough?

[Mr. X]

shevek, why bother.

Marvel are punching holes in the bottom of their own boat... let it sink. In fact take that screwdriver out of their hands and give them an axe.

I have a pet theory Marvel is doing this on purpose. They let these SJW people have their way knowing the sales will tank then clean house claiming poor sales so that they can't be accused of being anti diverse. "Hey you had your shot, fair and square... sorry but no sales... bygones". They settle the issue and can show these ideas don't work so they don't have to keep dealing with it. I have a general manager friend who runs a large game studio who has done this on a few occasions. Too many people in one project team who will not do what he says and want to do their own thing so he lets them knowing they can't meet their milestone (25 plus years of exp vs 3 years exp) then he just lays them all off. "Hey you had your chance, why should I have a heart attack changing you". When the people in charge are disagreeing with you then magically let you do whatever you want the trigger is pulled, the bullet just hasn't hit you yet.

Heck comics are just copyright holding tools anyway and the MCU makes way more money than comics. Even if they got back to their 100k an issue sales they used to have it wouldn't mean much. Comics are dying. Let DC and Marvel break up and let smaller people on the internet publish and do that small market.

What will happen here is someone will once more complain, get diverse talk shut down then they go back to posting what they want.

The house WILL burn down at some point. Then just sweep the debris aside and rebuild. As Jordan Peterson notes its the cycle of Phoenix. The old and unworkable has to burn down and swept aside at some point. Even Detroit had to crash and become a toilet to push the old guard out of the way so it can come back. If people won't listen then help them fail and push them aside.

[Heroine Addict]

One week after the warning and we're already back to the political stuff.

Well, as any response I might post to those last two comments will flare up the old arguments, I guess I'll just have to accept that some viewpoints go unquestioned around here while others get shut down.

Never mind. This used to be quite a nice forum for discussing the SH Peril genre.

[Mr. X]

Where did I mention politics? I'm advocating letting Marvel fail, let it burn down.

[DrDominator9]

Oh, is this battle still raging? Have fun then.

[shevek]

It still is a great forum for discussing superheroine peril, Heroine Addict. Whatever Mr. X says is his business (or the forum moderators'), but a discussion about Captain Marvel's appearance and her costume is the title of this thread. If a whole bunch of people in geekland don't like Captain Marvel's current costume or her appearance, then that is germane to the topic of this thread. This particular thread isn't about superheroine peril per se, it's about the depiction of Carol Danvers and her costume. A discussion about superheroine appearance at large.

This is about an aesthetic. When you boil it down to its essence, Superheroine Fetish (which is what this forum is about, in a broad sense beyond just peril) has an aesthetic which inherently involves beautiful women filling out tight costumes. You really have to have both the beautiful woman and the tightly filled costume to maximize this aesthetic. You can also have just the beautiful woman (for example, Kendra James doing most of a video in nothing but boots!). Or you can have the tight costume (I've seen many women who wouldn't necessarily be regarded as classically pretty but can still pull off an incredible filled-out costume). Both of those still qualify as of interest as well,just to a somewhat lesser extent. But if you have *neither* the beautiful woman *nor* the filled-out tight costume, the aesthetic is negated. Such is the case with the video I posted above, which uses no politics, but rather a comprehensive aesthetic analysis to demonstrate the current Captain Marvel iteration's nearly complete lack of femininity. Of course he doesn't emphasize sexiness that much, nor does he mention fetish appeal, but he is making points that indirectly relate to sexiness and fetish appeal, so it's the same thing.

There is nothing political about this critical approach. And there's nothing desperate about hoping that Captain Marvel gets re-sexified. It was only about three years ago that Marvel cemented its current misguided editorial agenda (so yeah, maybe *that's* the political part), and it's perfectly plausible that with a whole new crew of people in charge, it could take what looks like it's going to be a beautiful version of Captain Marvel in the movie, and "re-sexify" the character in the comics while easily still keeping her in basically the same costume motif. At least give her some of the libido and fire she used to have, etc. Again, we shall have to wait and see.

[MightyHypnotic]

I didn't have a problem with the posts but if you want to discuss the problem with Marvel in general create a thread for it and have at it..

[lionbadger]

but a discussion about Captain Marvel's appearance and her costume is the title of this thread. If a whole bunch of people in geekland don't like Captain Marvel's current costume or her appearance, then that is germane to the topic of this thread. This particular thread isn't about superheroine peril per se, it's about the depiction of Carol Danvers and her costume. A discussion about superheroine appearance at large.

Well no, it's actually ad hoc movie news and comic con reveal and nothing to do with the comic medium

[Femina]

OK..this point I'm about to make *is* about "Captain Marvel's costume"..so bear with me....

Here is a British comics critic named Mim Headroom who makes a very detailed and cogent meta-analysis of the appearance of Captain Marvel (whom he jokingly calls "Carl Danvers" a couple times) in her current comic. He doesn't rail about "sjws" or get political. He just deconstructs CM piece by piece, contrasting her against Aurora who appears in the same CM comic and is obviously female, against Gamora and Nebula (who appear much more obviously female in the Gamora comic), as well as against the premium statue of Captain Marvel that's being sold, which is also very curvy and sexy. (And notice that MIM uses a sexier version of CM in his thumbnail, which is probably from one of the previous DeConnick runs, to further drive home the point that Marvel has a definite *choice* of how to represent this character in this costume)

So, Marvel isn't even consistent in trying to de-sexualize the character (or maybe, Marvel just doesn't have editorial control over the statue's appearance)? Either way, this negative opinion about Captain Marvel's current androgyny is one that many online comics critics hold. And I do think that if Brie Larson looks even somewhat beautiful and feminine in the movie (and I hope she does), that the comic representation will have to be somewhat "re-feminized" in response to the movie. Again, we'll see, but I'm pointing out that there is definitely an argument to be made here and a sentiment of disappointment about the character that many do have.

Fair enough?

Notification: I left out the video from that quote since it's easily located in the OP and just clogs up space for a response.

I watched the video, and frankly it wasn't very convincing. He sort of spends fifteen minutes harping on a single panel of a comic book that's probably got a hundred drawings in it. I'm not going to pretend like Captain Marvel isn't often drawn in the way the video presents, if he'd even TRIED to he probably could have found four or five more examples just in that one issue alone... but just as there are panels one could poke at and decide 'distinctly feminine' there are panels you can find that are distinctly feminine as well. Not every panel in a comic book is a work of art, nor even always consistent with the preceding panel (I'm looking at you any comic book with two artists!)

Look, Captain Marvel isn't a dainty lady (and you don't have to like this, that's fine). Maybe she WAS a dainty lady as 'Ms Marvel' but that wasn't ever realistic in conjunction with who she is and what she does. Now while I don't EXPECT realism in my comic books precisely, neither will I look at a picture of a muscular woman and just assume that she hasn't been drawn accurately either. Ever look at a Gymnast? She doesn't have breasts, she doesn't have as much of an hourglass figure, you know why? Because working out and keeping your body strong to that degree leaves very little room for body fat (Which boobs mostly are) and increases testosterone production, it just does, it's biological fact. Carol is a superheroine, and what's more than that she's an employed SOLDIER in the Military. She keeps fit in fighting shape and when she isn't keeping fit she's actually FIGHTING which is an even harder workout. So it isn't that she has an unrealistic body type, it's simply that to some people she's got an 'unappealing' one.

So that's my two cents on that. Again, I'm not arguing you have to like the current representation of Captain Marvel, but the opinion put forth in that video as regard to 'realistic depictions' of woman, is mostly just that, an OPINION and devoid of many (if any) actual facts. Some of the stuff he mentioned about 'artistic beauty' etc. etc. have some merit... but also fall under opinion, because what an artist finds beauty in and chooses to capture in their work is entirely subjective and personal to them... it's also not something I consider to be inherent in comic books. Comics are COMMISSIONED art, and questions of 'artistic license/beauty etc.' come second to the commissioners demands and as such (In my opinion) reduce the credibility of the work as a true 'work of art'

[shevek]

Femina: It's Ok that you weren't convinced by the video. I had hoped you might listen to some of Mim's analytical arguments, which essentially boil down to his perception that Capt Marvel does NOT look like a woman, but it's alright if you don't agree.

You seem to have now moved the goalposts a bit, and taken the stance that it's now all about "realism". That's the same trend which makes costumes less sexy and more "street like" and "practical" like the changes that happened to Batgirl's uniform.

Here is a thread in Comics Forum that DaJinx actually started to address what he saw as the problems in comics today, which are similar to
what Mr X and I have been saying: viewtopic.php?f=82&t=27996 So, we'll take all of our opinions about Marvel there or in the Comics Forum in general.

Correct, Femina, the body type appeal is subjective, and so is artistic beauty, yet there are certain standards that have been set over millennia and certain shapes that automatically appeal to the male gaze. Mainstream movies like Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel will appeal to mainstream standards that mostly regard feminine beauty in the most conventional light. That's because the producers of the movies are trying to appeal to the maximum audience.

With comics, it's another story because the audience is so small, and with Marvel, it's further obfuscated because they are also playing with
vast amounts of Disney money. But any more discussion about that will be done in the Comics Forum anyway. I'm finished with this particular thing - I just thought the video might be enlightening because of its analytical arguments but apparently not. No biggie!

[Femina]

Femina: It's Ok that you weren't convinced by the video. I had hoped you might listen to some of Mim's analytical arguments, which essentially boil down to his perception that Capt Marvel does NOT look like a woman, but it's alright if you don't agree.

You seem to have now moved the goalposts a bit, and taken the stance that it's now all about "realism". That's the same trend which makes costumes less sexy and more "street like" and "practical" like the changes that happened to Batgirl's uniform.

Here is a thread in Comics Forum that DaJinx actually started to address what he saw as the problems in comics today, which are similar to
what Mr X and I have been saying: viewtopic.php?f=82&t=27996 So, we'll take all of our opinions about Marvel there or in the Comics Forum in general.

Correct, Femina, the body type appeal is subjective, and so is artistic beauty, yet there are certain standards that have been set over millennia and certain shapes that automatically appeal to the male gaze. Mainstream movies like Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel will appeal to mainstream standards that mostly regard feminine beauty in the most conventional light. That's because the producers of the movies are trying to appeal to the maximum audience.

With comics, it's another story because the audience is so small, and with Marvel, it's further obfuscated because they are also playing with
vast amounts of Disney money. But any more discussion about that will be done in the Comics Forum anyway. I'm finished with this particular thing - I just thought the video might be enlightening because of its analytical arguments but apparently not. No biggie!

I'll state again that I don't actually expect or even particularly 'seek' realism in comic books, it was more that in the video he actually brought up 'realism' a bit himself. My response was simply to counterpoint that if one is to put realism into their argument of 'what physiologically makes a woman's form feminine' he was actually wrong when CM is put up against a realistic angle of what a woman in her position and of her occupation would actually look like with the proper motivation and dedication to said occupation. I don't actually disagree with making her more sexy (though I will counterpoint that at least in terms of one of your last posts where you also commented on how tightly the costume should fit. Captain Marvels costume is about as tight fitting as it comes without actually riding up the but or something) or a bit more 'curvy' (I don't much care for 'supreme weightlifting champion style 'buff' in the comics and heroines I follow BUT I actually prefer a good amount of definition and athleticism over the more anorexic heroines of the 90's) longer hair etc.

I simply disagreed with his points about the female form as a rule and then more prominently with his decision to focus an one single panel when he no doubt had plenty, and ought to have counterpointed with the images where the 'female form' is more directly noticeable on the Captain because there ARE panels for that to.

In any case, (And to remain on topic as well) in terms of the FILM, the costume is going to conform to the contours of Brie Larson's body whom even with a good amount of working out for the role isn't a professional athlete or a soldier or anything so it's not likely she'd lose to much of what traditionally makes men (and some women of course) find her body attractive. Furthermore I fully EXPECT the comics to follow suit in their depictions of her in precisely the same way as they have with the rest of the Avengers whom have been in the films. (At the very least I hope they'll put Brie's hairstyle up there on her... I actually feel like 'the Mighty Captain Marvel' is rocking her short short hair better than they've ever managed to up to this point... but as a point of personal preference, I'd still rather she grew it out some more)

[shevek]

Just watched the 2014 animated movie "Avengers Confidential: Black Widow and Punisher". Black Widow looks very hot in it, as does Captain Marvel. Since 2014, Danvers has lost all the womanly curves she had in that movie..hope those curves return. I think on that we can agree!

Carol_Danvers_(Earth-101001).jpg (77.17 KiB) Viewed 3470 times

captainmarvel1.jpg (47.17 KiB) Viewed 3470 times

[lionbadger]

You don't like Avengers Assemble

[shevek]

In Avengers Assemble, Carol is still slightly less androgynous than in the current comics, but sure, I prefer the 2014 version for sure.
But if you like your women tough-looking but not particularly feminine (the term would be 'butch') then Danvers is right up your alley.



Fair enough? Not that this has to do with the costume or her appearance, but Carol's also pretty much become an invulnerable Mary Sue, whereas I don't really think she was before. Basically Marvel's Superman.

[Apparently they also de-feminized Wasp. In the previous Avengers cartoon, Earth's Mightiest Heroes, Wasp looks very cute. But in Assemble,
all of her feminine features disappear behind an armored suit that barely has any curves. She barely looks female even with her facemask off.]

old Wasp


new Wasp


I think we can have some faith that Wasp will be pretty sexy in her movie, though - since she's played by Michelle Pfeiffer. The Wasp is going to be played by a woman who will be 60 by the time the movie comes out! [I'm sure there'll be a separate thread about that, in time]

pfieffer-wasp.jpg (301.88 KiB) Viewed 3457 times

But anyway my point in mentioning Wasp is that you can see how these newer cartoons, much like the newest comics, are making attempts to de-emphasize gender distinctive appearances. Not necessarily the best news for those who prefer their superheroines to be "femme-presenting".

[Imagineer]

They're just not giving every woman late-career-pornstar boobs and contortionist poses. The above examples are still easily identifiable as women -- just not women from Dan-O comics.

[shevek]

Imagineer, I appreciate your use of hyperbole to make your point, but I never advocated for a return to extreme 90s bad-girl art, or for mainstream comics to look like Penthouse Comix. I do want the women to be drawn like Neal Adams or George Perez would draw them, though.

With the movies (specifically in this case the Capt Marvel and Wasp movies), it's different I think. The audience is so vast that they have to stick to more traditional representation just by default. And so the Wasp armor has boobs and deliberate female curves, just like the Batgirl armor did in the 90s. The viewing audience has to be able to see "that is a beautiful woman."

But that is not the case in Marvel comics, or apparently now in some Marvel animation as well. Since that is not the topic of this thread, I have started a new thread in the Comics forum titled 'Woke' Agenda in Comics. Post replies there if you like because that is where I will be continuing the conversation. Thanks!

[lionbadger]

something something something marvel agenda something something