Captain Marvel Costume & Plot reveals

[lionbadger]

Kevin Feige surprised Marvel Cinematic Universe fans everywhere during the studio’s Hall H panel yesterday when he revealed that not only would Captain Marvel be set during the 90’s, but that theSkrulls would serve as the villains in the film. With the Skrulls having yet to make their MCU debut, what led to the decision to introduce them in Captain Marvel? According to Feige, they thought it would be “fun.”

[lionbadger]

[lionbadger]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand completely coincidentally I have received a completed Captain Marvel peril commission (by Creativore over on http://creativore.deviantart.com/ as part of his Facility Series) today! Don't say I never give you anything



Alas, I doubt Marvel will be using this costume variant anytime soon

[Philo Hunter]

I'm excited for the film. She's my favorite heroine and I can't wait to see her on the big screen. And it looks like we will get to see her in Infinity War first maybe?

[wondergirlsupragirl]

Awesome art, Brie Larson is such a beautiful and talented actress, she will rock as Captain Marvel! Checkout this brilliant fan clip.

[batgirl1969]

A hot blonde superheroine in a skin tight costume...mainstream...what is not to like about this?
I have to be honest I really dont lnow much about her...but again...can't wait to check it out

[Philo Hunter]

Her recent run of comics are all pretty awesome. It will be interesting to see what aspects of her character they use. She's been a lot of things over the years and there's a lot of draw on, some of it slightly contradictory.

[shevek]

Her "recent run of comics" are not "awesome". The longer they ran with the Kelly Sue Deconnick changes to the character, the more butch, mannish, square jawed and androgynous she became. And while such an appearance could work for a newly created character, it does a terrible injustice to the incredible sexiness that Ms. Marvel (as Carol Danvers) has stood for since the 70s. I have many of the 2000s TPBs in which she was still wearing the tight black-and-yellow outfit (and/or when Karla Sofen/Moonstone was wearing a version of her older red & blue nova-burst outfit). They are pretty awesome and they are hot.

What this apparently looks like is that Kevin Feige (don't confuse him with Paul Feig plz!) is going to use the current Captain Marvel costume - which on a woman with beautiful features, gorgeous hair and a curvy body *does* still look great - but set the film in the bad-girl 90s. It looks like Carol Danvers will be fairly feminine and have longish hair. If so, goal of Carol Danvers' image reversal is achieved! Even if SJW Marvel (the comic book company) resists conforming whatever terrible Carol book they are currently putting out to the image established by the movie..still, the public at large will come to know Carol Danvers for what she is and should be - one of the Top Ten sexiest female superhero characters, by far - and will never now her Annie Lennoxed incarnation. That's all we can hope for!

How to make Captain Marvel look like a Tumblr Dyke to please the sjw brigades who don't actually buy comic books anyway.

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captainmarvelworse.jpg (44.53 KiB) Viewed 6294 times

And how to fix this problem (using the movie as a launching point) and reclaim the inherent hotness of this character.

captainmarvelsexy.jpg (21.61 KiB) Viewed 6294 times

[avenger]

is what they showed on the large screen an actual screen shot of the actress in costume, or concept art?

[Philo Hunter]

Her "recent run of comics" are not "awesome". The longer they ran with the Kelly Sue Deconnick changes to the character, the more butch, mannish, square jawed and androgynous she became. And while such an appearance could work for a newly created character, it does a terrible injustice to the incredible sexiness that Ms. Marvel (as Carol Danvers) has stood for since the 70s. I have many of the 2000s TPBs in which she was still wearing the tight black-and-yellow outfit (and/or when Karla Sofen/Moonstone was wearing a version of her older red & blue nova-burst outfit). They are pretty awesome and they are hot...
...How to make Captain Marvel look like a Tumblr Dyke to please the sjw brigades who don't actually buy comic books anyway...
...reclaim the inherent hotness of this character.

Porn is for hotness, this is a whole sight dedicated to superheroes porn. No need for my mainstream none porn comics to be porny. I read a Captain Marvel comic and go to a movie I want to see ass kick and heroics, not over sexualized soft core porn.

And on a totally unrelated note: the things you find attractive are NOT universal. Her current look is PLENTY hot, especially the "dyke" look. You like the old look and feel? Read those old comics. They are just as awesome. Characters are allowed to advance and change just as people do. I for one, as do tons of other fans, love the current Captain Marvel. As I love the old Ms. Marvel stuff. Carol is awesome and kicks ass in all her forms, even as binary.

[Philo Hunter]

is what they showed on the large screen an actual screen shot of the actress in costume, or concept art?

It's concept art. But based on the concept art we've seen on other Marvel projects it will probably be pretty spot on. They haven't even started filming yet, but will be shortly (in California it looks like).

[lionbadger]

I loved the Kelly Sue run, there were a dozen different artists on that and it wasn't until she left that they did the haircut and lost the awesome helmet (they also went balls deep on the military angle)

I didnt like what they did with the character in civil war 2 but mighty captain marvel (apart from being another sales bump relaunch format) seems to be a bit of a return to form.

[Philo Hunter]

I loved the Kelly Sue run, there were a dozen different artists on that and it wasn't until she left that they did the haircut and lost the awesome helmet (they also went balls deep on the military angle)

I didnt like what they did with the character in civil war 2 but mighty captain marvel (apart from being another sales bump relaunch format) seems to be a bit of a return to form.

I loved that helmet! It was so bad ass and that page where you see it coming on and off for the first time was epic. I REALLY hope we get that in the movie, it would look amazing in live action.

[shevek]

Her "recent run of comics" are not "awesome". The longer they ran with the Kelly Sue Deconnick changes to the character, the more butch, mannish, square jawed and androgynous she became. And while such an appearance could work for a newly created character, it does a terrible injustice to the incredible sexiness that Ms. Marvel (as Carol Danvers) has stood for since the 70s. I have many of the 2000s TPBs in which she was still wearing the tight black-and-yellow outfit (and/or when Karla Sofen/Moonstone was wearing a version of her older red & blue nova-burst outfit). They are pretty awesome and they are hot...
...How to make Captain Marvel look like a Tumblr Dyke to please the sjw brigades who don't actually buy comic books anyway...
...reclaim the inherent hotness of this character.

Porn is for hotness, this is a whole sight dedicated to superheroes porn. No need for my mainstream none porn comics to be porny. I read a Captain Marvel comic and go to a movie I want to see ass kick and heroics, not over sexualized soft core porn.

And on a totally unrelated note: the things you find attractive are NOT universal. Her current look is PLENTY hot, especially the "dyke" look. You like the old look and feel? Read those old comics. They are just as awesome. Characters are allowed to advance and change just as people do. I for one, as do tons of other fans, love the current Captain Marvel. As I love the old Ms. Marvel stuff. Carol is awesome and kicks ass in all her forms, even as binary.

Her current look is not hot, and I'm sorry but the things that made Ms Marvel attractive from the 70s to the mid-2000s *are* practically universal. The same statuesque beauty standard exists in the West as it does in Japan as it does in Somalia as it does in the Middle East as it does in India. Sure there are some tribes where that wouldn't be the case but their cultural impact is insignificant in the world. The only "tribe" in the West that considers the current incarnation of Carol Danvers to be sexy is the blue-haired, tattooed, genderfluid, otherkin Tumblr tribe, because she *looks* like them.
This character has "advanced and changed" because of an internal agenda in the Marvel editorial staff where they feel some misplaced need to "please" an audience that doesn't really buy comics but that the editors *hope* they will attract to the book by exuding politically correct messages.

I'm not at all saying that mainstream movies need to be softcore porn, but I'm also saying there's no need for them to be desexualized either. Many heroines in movies and TV have been obviously hot, from the days of Batgirl and WW, to Buffy and Xena, to today's Black Widow, WW, Mera and Supergirl. However, the current depiction in the comics of Carol Danvers is not hot. A man's haircut, a square jaw, an almost total lack of breasts, a straight-lined uniform with no curves, and the attitude of a character that's never sexy or flirty (always deadly serious and Mary Sue), none of that is sexy. (Yes, Binary is hot, precisely because she acquires a more sexy figure when she makes that change!)

I am really surprised you would think otherwise, given the comics that you write and draw. Your heroines are busty, voluptuous, curvy and nubile to various degrees - I can't recall any of them that look like a man. But Carol Danvers does (in the comics). That's why I'm hoping the 90s portrayal will add femininity back to Captain Marvel (I have TPBs of the stories where she fights the Skrulls, and boy does she look great doing it!), and that Brie Larson will change the unfortunate standard that the SJWs at Marvel have set. I guess we'll see!

[Mr. X]

Her "recent run of comics" are not "awesome".

I agree. As Diversity Comics put it, she looks like the hero on the side of a Plumber van.

[shevek]

Glad we both watch Diversity & Comics, and probably Capt Cummings too. I wish the both of them would settle more for featuring indies..that would be more my speed. I find it weird that they applaud artists who draw sexy female bodies and then don't mention books like Empowered or Red One. You think they'll ignore Patriotika when it comes out?

[lionbadger]

Her current look is not hot, and I'm sorry but the things that made Ms Marvel attractive from the 70s to the mid-2000s *are* practically universal. The same statuesque beauty standard exists in the West as it does in Japan as it does in Somalia as it does in the Middle East as it does in India. Sure there are some tribes where that wouldn't be the case but their cultural impact is insignificant in the world. The only "tribe" in the West that considers the current incarnation of Carol Danvers to be sexy is the blue-haired, tattooed, genderfluid, otherkin Tumblr tribe, because she *looks* like them.

This character has "advanced and changed" because of an internal agenda in the Marvel editorial staff where they feel some misplaced need to "please" an audience that doesn't really buy comics but that the editors *hope* they will attract to the book by exuding politically correct messages.

First, suggest you google "photoshop by country", the difference between i.e. Spain and Italy (who neighbour) is shocking.

Second, I am not a fan of the current militaristic look and I don't like the constant references to Carol being a soldier, 1, she's a pilot and 2 she's more than just gun fodder.

Third, despite the daily angst and terror that SJWs (a term I only see on this forum) are coming to take away boobz and destroy the comics it's probably worth noting that Ms Marvel never achieved the A list status that Captain Marvel has and Ms Marvel comics were stop start through 80s & 90s (and had some terrible story lines too) As noted above, Carol was cheerfully killed off entirely to allow dark avengers to run.

I guess the solution if you don't like it is to vote with your wallet and not buy the comics.

[Heroine Addict]

Shevek, I know this forum doesn't use a profanity filter, but the pejorative use of "dyke"? Really? Have we traveled back to the 1970s?

Is there going to be the "But they use it themselves!" justification, as with the N-word? (As if "they" all held a big meeting or something.) Yes, I know some gays use terms like "dyke" and "queer" ironically, just like some black people use the N-word, in the context of taking ownership of a historical slur. But that doesn't make it okay for us straights to start hurling "dyke" as a term of abuse once again.

Trying to avoid epithets which have been used as terms of abuse against certain groups is not some great PC conspiracy by the SJWs. It's just common decency. (No doubt I'm "virtue signalling" there?)

Would you use that term, in that context, straight to the face of someone you consider to be a "dyke" in a public place? (There's a good chance you would be spending the night in a cell if you did.) Or are you using the forum as a "safe space" because most members seem to be straight men and there's not much risk of any consequences?


Anyhoo, the Captain Marvel suit looks good. Can't wait to see Brie wearing it.

[Philo Hunter]

Her current look is not hot, and I'm sorry but the things that made Ms Marvel attractive from the 70s to the mid-2000s *are* practically universal... The only "tribe" in the West that considers the current incarnation of Carol Danvers to be sexy is the blue-haired, tattooed, genderfluid, otherkin Tumblr tribe, because she *looks* like them...

I mean, first of all just because A is attractive doesn't mean B can't be attractive. Also your 100% wrong about that "tribe" being the only one that thinks she's attractive in her current form. It's kind of sad that your definition of whats attractive in a woman is so limited but there are a GREAT deal of men that find a less traditional feminine look (and yes, contrary to what you think she still looks VERY feminine). Even if all that was true, what the fuck is wrong with having some damn diversity in what kind of awesome, hot, ass kicking heroines there are? So what if ONE heroine's look changed from the "traditional" look of what you consider universal beauty? I am stoked to see more diverse visuals in my comics, which, again, are NOT about hotness. But that being said she IS fucking hot as she is now.

I'm not at all saying that mainstream movies need to be softcore porn, but I'm also saying there's no need for them to be desexualized either. Many heroines in movies and TV have been obviously hot, from the days of Batgirl and WW, to Buffy and Xena, to today's Black Widow, WW, Mera and Supergirl. However, the current depiction in the comics of Carol Danvers is not hot. A man's haircut, a square jaw, an almost total lack of breasts, a straight-lined uniform with no curves, and the attitude of a character that's never sexy or flirty (always deadly serious and Mary Sue), none of that is sexy. (Yes, Binary is hot, precisely because she acquires a more sexy figure when she makes that change!)

First, if your saying characters can't be desexualized then it DOES seem that your saying characters do need to sexualized, which sounds a lot like you want at least soft core porn in all your media, but whatever. On to a much more important point: Current Carol Danvers IS hot. Maybe not to you or many guys, but she's hot to plenty of other people. A "man's" hair cut is fucking sexy on a female figure (also the idea that some hairstyles or just for dudes and some for women is laughable retro and makes me wonder how much older than me you are). I've been with plenty of women that had square jaws and they were just as sexy in the sack as women more rounded features. And yeah, I LOVe big breasts, but smaller breasts or even a flat chest can be sexy to. It sounds like YOUR issue if your view of what's attractive in a woman is limited to just one body type. That's fine if YOU don't find her attractive, but others DO. And saying "no one finds her attractive" while multiple people here on this thread are saying they find her attractive makes you look kind of foolish.

I am really surprised you would think otherwise, given the comics that you write and draw. Your heroines are busty, voluptuous, curvy and nubile to various degrees - I can't recall any of them that look like a man. But Carol Danvers does (in the comics). That's why I'm hoping the 90s portrayal will add femininity back to Captain Marvel (I have TPBs of the stories where she fights the Skrulls, and boy does she look great doing it!), and that Brie Larson will change the unfortunate standard that the SJWs at Marvel have set. I guess we'll see!

Why does it surprise you? After I've said multiple times and already once in this thread that I view porn as one thing and normal comics as another? (P.S. I don't draw comics, I use make CG art). I do have some characters with flatter chest and less feminine features, but I don't think any of them look like men. Of course, I don't think Carol Danvers looks like a man wither since my view of female sexuality is not as limited as yours. As far as your hopes for the movie, I personally hope your super disappointed. But then, not all media is going to be tailor made for you and people with your tastes so you should probably accept that at one point.

And I think now we've both had our say and we should get back to the topic: Captain Marvel looks awesome. Some of us are excited, some of us aren't. Those that aren't should probably leave this thread.

[Mr. X]

http://comichron.com/monthlycomicssales ... 17-05.html

Doesn't look like Capt. Marvel fairs well at all. Overall Marvel sales are down. Mighty Capt Marvel is 138 and resales of Ms. Marvel are 131.

I'm all for people wanting a change in content and asking a company to change but what bugs me about the SJW crowd is they don't buy the stuff they demand be changed. No different than if I demanded no more hunky, muscle bound guys on the cover of romance novels when I never buy romance novels. Is this really about making things better or about sh*tting all over nerd stuff cause nerds are easy to mess with ie bully nerds.

And I don't get were all these self elected co-alphas come from that think its their job to police everyone's sexuality. As gays say "our sexuality is none of your business". Hetero sex is not a public utility and not open for everyone to have a say in. This is, if anything else, a super heroine fetish board. I would imagine people coming here do so due to a common kink in super heroine fetish.

Yeah I want a booby, sexy Ms. Marvel. So what. Go f*ck yourself if you think you're going to police what I want. Mind your own business. Going around changing stuff then thinking you're making the world a better place as you move on to set the next house on fire doesn't make you well intentioned or a good person. It just makes you a bully hiding behind a cause so you can bully some nerds then pat yourself on the back.

Nerds are our bread and butter. They pay the bills. They are the greatest people ever. Praise be the nerds. Without them there would be no kinky fun erotica. Thank you nerds.

Go after athletes. At least nerds aren't beating their wives and murdering their family in a roid rage.

[sideshowbob4791]

Well said Mr. X!!!

[Philo Hunter]

Yeah I want a small boobed, muscular sexy Captain Marvel. So what. Go f*ck yourself if you think you're going to police what I want. Mind your own business.

See what I did there?

[DrDominator9]

This thread is getting nasty. Keep it civil or it gets locked!

[shevek]

See..this is the problem with the Internet: with written-out text, there's no way to parse nuance. Heroine Addict: "Dyke" is not the utterly abhorrent pejorative that you think it is, certainly not in the realm of the N-word (see flyers for events like "Dykes on Bikes" happening in hipster areas of the country, including my own city).

Sure, if you use it with malice and practically spit it out at your target in an abusive fashion, of course it is deplorable! That is not at all what I did. I simply said that Captain Marvel has a dyke haircut. Which she does. She looks like a butch lesbian, and she was re-designed that way because SJW editors took over Marvel and they wanted to try and cultivate a SJW consumer base (which they have largely failed to do). Again, I repeat, they did not create a brand-new "Tumblr-looking" character roster for their supposed Tumblrist fanbase like, say, Steven Universe has done (only Kamala Khan is really a new character)..instead they took an old character, known to be extremely feminine and sexy for over a 30 YEAR PERIOD in the comics, and butchified her look (and her demeanor) entirely for the sake of political correctness. They wiped out the sexy because that is the goal of the far-left: to enforce a kind of puritanism that eliminates the male gaze (very similar to Islam, which is why far leftists defend burqa-wearers..and also boring fundamentalist Christians!) because in third-wave feminism, men are bad.

I guarantee you that cultured hip lesbians have no problem with using the word "dyke" or butch, when referring to a style of haircut and dress. The opposite, of course, being a "femme" or a lipstick lesbian. How do I know this? Because I personally am friendly with many lesbians and bisexuals, and I have some of them acting in my superheroine video series. The other day I mentioned to them about how Captain Marvel has a dyke haircut and looks like a lesbian and they didn't blink an eye, because that is exactly the same thing they would say and THEY KNOW THAT IT'S TRUE, and they know that it's a pandering appeal to their demographic. What you're doing now to me is "virtue signalling"..which is where SJW types try to outdo each other by proclaiming their virtues. Which is why SJWs never get anywhere with logic and argument..instead they prefer coups and takeovers (like the crowd that took over Marvel Comics). When SJWs argue amongst themselves, they "eat their own" with constant virtue battles (as noted by Diversity & Comics on Youtube).

This virtue battle won't work. I'm not a right-winger, so you don't have the upper hand. I'm not a punchable Nazi. I'm a left-libertarian. I'm a staunch second-wave feminist. I campaigned for Hillary Clinton and voted for her. I'm very pro-choice and I'm very pro-LGBT rights and pro-gay marriage and pro-pot legalization, etc. So criticizing me because I said Captain Marvel has a "dyke" haircut? Come on now.

As for Philo Hunter's whiteknighting on behalf of whether a very mannish-looking woman is "beautiful"? (OK, Grace Jones was pretty hot but androgyny had a sexy edge in the 80s that it has since lost). Go lust after the long list of Marvel female characters which their artists and writers have magically transformed into B-cups or less, have removed the womanly curves and made everything straight lines, and have made the costumes less intricate and sexy, and more street-level and "cosplayable" (like on Kate Bishop for example). DC Comics' characters largely don't look like that and their proportions haven't been changed. Why does Carol Danvers look like a man but Green Lantern Jessica Ruiz looks like a sexy woman? They're both powerful characters, right? Both represent diversity, right? Difference is that DC does diversity right, and Marvel does it wrong. There's an agenda there at Marvel, and it's obvious.

Yes, Ms. Marvel (Carol Danvers) wasn't an A-list character for Marvel. And that was probably because she wasn't naturally super-popular. She had a fan base, and I'm sure some of it consisted of feminists and some of nerds, and some of feminist nerds. But Captain Marvel, as she stands now, isn't really a natural "A-list" character either. She was *shoehorned* into that role by the current crop of SJWs who run Marvel and their associated writer friends. These people said, "Let's change the fun-loving sexy Ms Marvel into a grumpy mannish solider, and make her our flagship character - that will show how progressive we are, and all the progressives will love Marvel and buy our comics!!"

But guess what? That didn't happen. Sales are abysmal for Captain Marvel comics (as Mr. X shows) and they have been for quite some time. And that's because the SJW audience is NOT the comic book-buying audience. The editors and writers at Marvel are in full-on delusional mode, writing for an audience that doesn't buy their products, and pissing off an audience that *did* buy their products by the score (as recently as ten years ago). They are even more delusional by continuing to push the in-universe idea that Captain Marvel is "the most popular superhero in the world." There's only one place she's popular, and that is in their own delusional utopianist minds.

In fact, the whole idea that Captain Marvel is even getting a movie is kind of a delusion in itself. With comic book sales for Captain Marvel titles so low, where is the inherent fanbase for this character? The truth is, there isn't much of one. Tons of people can tell you the basic origin story of Wonder Woman..but do you think any average person on the street knows anything about the back story of Captain Marvel? Certainly not. She's not A-list, she's a B or C-list character that they are starting from scratch with and trying to transform into an A-list character.

The fanbase they will need to appeal to, to make a Captain Marvel movie successful, are the people who have made all the MCU movies successful: mainstream moviegoers. Not SJWs, who probably don't go see movies in large numbers any more than they read comics. What do mainstream moviegoers like? They like gorgeous sets, big drama, lots of action and explosions. Basically they like things that look good and sound good. And that includes liking beautiful women and handsome men who play these characters, like Thor and Black Widow. The movie will succeed on the basis of being part of the successful MCU, not because the character of Captain Marvel has a fanbase. They are filming the movie right now, and probably they will do WHATEVER they can to make it like Wonder Woman, so it can succeed like Wonder Woman did.

So...my guess is that Brie Larson will be depicted as sexy as possible within the confines of the current Captain Marvel interpretation. Yes, she will be wearing the same costume as the "dyke haircut" Carol Danvers of the comics. But no, she will hopefully not be a boring, humorless mannish soldier. She will hopefully be an exciting and beautiful action hero who is fighting Skrulls in the 90s alongside other exciting and good-looking action heroes from the Marvel stable. And if that is the case, I look forward to this movie even as I continue to avoid the current Captain Marvel comics (and believe me, I have given them a try! I took out several Captain Marvel tpbs from the library), because the presentation in the movie might drive the presentation in the comic books and even possibly change the comicbook portrayal of Captain Marvel back to a more desirable figure.

And Philo, you're going to tell me your own comics aren't about "hotness" when they are clearly about desire, power, sex, stimulation, tight costumes
and the like?

[DrDominator9]

Shevek, putting aside the question of your use of "dyke," I think that was a very cogent argument for seeing how this movie is handled and you've piqued my interest in a movie I had little interest in heretofore. The fact is, if a movie has a good script with competent actors then it has a fair chance to do well. Now I will follow its progress and I hope it does well. I'm a Brie Larson fan so there's some positive spin there. We shall see.

[lionbadger]

Go after athletes. At least nerds aren't beating their wives and murdering their family in a roid rage.

Point of order, I direct the reader's attention to the strange case of "Christian Weston Chandler" and his "sonichu" (note same cannot be unseen) counter m'learned friend's defence of all things nerdy

Also, Marvel comics generally, I'm not renewing my Marvel Ultimate this year because I'm sick of stupid out of character "Events!". I guess these are my "SJW agendas", stupid fucking sales bump tricks and relaunched serials because 'comic 1' sells better. This really Marvel's problem that you can't follow a character through a natural progression and crazy long running saga, nope, 6 months of fairly decent story then wipe the slate clean and repeat, always repeat.

Captain Marvel makes sense for me for the movie, everyone knew who spiderman was back in 00s but few knew about Iron Man. Plus, she's in the toons, the games (looks amazing in Marvel v Capcom) the apps

[shevek]

I gotta tell you, guys, I saw this depiction of Captain Marvel in a Diversity & Comics thumbnail, and it is QUITE CLEAR what SJW Marvel's agenda is. Here's how I know: I have a friend. This friend is very nice. My friend is currently undergoing testosterone treatments for gender transition
and currently prefers to be referred to as "they". This friend has a short tufty buzzcut with sides of the head shaved, a boyish-looking face, and a round chin. In other words, my friend currently looks a whole lot like this recent drawing of Carol Danvers! So my point is this: rather than live in denial by continuing to call her a woman when she doesn't look like one, why not just write a whole story arc where Carol Danvers is taking treatments to transition to being a man? It would be bold, innovative and progressive without being in denial. But they can't do that now, because the movie is going to establish that she's definitely a female character.

This is a woman transitioning to being a man, my friends. Why not just make it part of the story? Too late now.

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Also, the current SJW Marvel administration (which has been in effect since around 2014 when the Kamala Khan book first debuted) definitely thinks that the Ms Marvel/Carol Danvers "Warbird" costume, which she wore for 20 years in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s, is problematic and politically incorrect. In the very first issue of the Kamala Khan, they proclaim it to be so, and denigrate anyone who prefers that sexy uniform
as having a "boot fetish". They talk direct shit on the costume that was around for so long, it's now "haram", and we haven't seen it since.

Why, yes, we on this forum do have that fetish, and many others too! Thank you very much, G Willow Wilson and Sana Amanat, but no thanks for the puritanical judgement from your corner: a curious blend of leftist intolerance ("objectification") and Islamic intransigence ("immodesty").

msmarvel1.jpg (470.95 KiB) Viewed 5958 times

[Heroine Addict]

There's a whole comics forum where we can play Shevek Bingo with your posts about modern comics.

"SJWs"
"Political Correctness"
"Some of my best friends are minorities"
"Virtue signalling"
"The Muslims"
"Something from the past has been ruined in the present"
"Something from the present will be ruined in the future"
"Regressive left"
"Agendas"

It really doesn't take long to get a "full house" at Shevek Bingo. Jesus wept, dude. Do you have to politicize every single thread? Do you just spend all day being bitter about certain comics trying to appeal to groups who aren't you?

[tallyho]

Now, now, everyone is entitled to their opinion and has the right to express it.
Better its expressed and ignored than never voiced for fear of being berated

[Philo Hunter]

Now, now, everyone is entitled to their opinion and has the right to express it.
Better its expressed and ignored than never voiced for fear of being berated

I mean, I agree, but it gets suffocating having the same points brought up over and over again in almost every thread.

[tallyho]

Now, now, everyone is entitled to their opinion and has the right to express it.
Better its expressed and ignored than never voiced for fear of being berated

I mean, I agree, but it gets suffocating having the same points brought up over and over again in almost every thread.

I do accept that also

[shevek]

Heroine Addict: I really am friends with an incredibly diverse bunch of people. It's called living in an urban area and participating in a local music scene. That'll do it. If you want to play the Shevek Drinking Game with the rest of it, go right ahead. But it's not me who's staying up all the time thinking of these things. I have plenty of other stuff to do. It's guys like Capt Cummings, Diversity & Comics, Micah Curtis and Grove of Eglantine who flog these ideas, video after video, all with humorous aplomb and fairly solid reasoning. So go ahead and blame them if you will.

Me, I was just "marveling" at how much that particular rendering of Carol Danvers looked like someone I know and see quite often..someone who just happens to be transitioning. The resemblance (from my perspective) really is startling. Carry on!

[lionbadger]

I think the point he's making is more that it's a bit weird to be simultaneously constantly outraged by an evil corporate diversity agenda, in this case a miltary character's military style haircut, and simultaneously apparently quite happy with diversity, just so long as nobody draws it?

[Heroine Addict]

It's worth remembering that the black costume was only ever a success with those of us who found it sexually appealing. The costume was brought in for Issue 20 of Ms Marvel Volume 1. This is after the covers of 17 and 19 had revealed a lot more skin by showing the original costume ripped to shreds. (A typical Marvel bait and switch. The actual costume damage in the issues was nothing like the lurid cover images with Ms Marvel's tits one inch away from flopping out of her destroyed costume.) Yet the new sexy revamped costume lasted for just four issues before the title was cancelled.

Then the 2006 revival managed to last for 50 issues plus 4 extras. With Karla Sofen in the original costume taking over from Carol for a significant part of that. Out of the 40 years Ms Marvel has been around, maybe 4 featured Carol in the sexy black costume as the main attraction in her own title. We may like it, but that costume wasn't much of a sales draw.

Which is why it seems a bit strange when there's such outrage at characters such as Ms Marvel being reinvented for new audiences. Consumer apathy took your sexy Ms Marvel away, not the SJW agenda. I don't see why previous (failed) versions should be preserved for the sake of nostalgia. The old comics are still out there and still available on ComiXology.

Carol's implied lesbianism, it that is the desired interpretation, is not a problem for me. We know so little about any of these characters' personal lives that it's perfectly plausible for Carol to have been bi-curious or even a closeted lesbian in the past. Even if we take her previous boyfriends into account, it's not as if she spent every issue with a moist-crotched costume, craving to be filled with hard cock. Seemingly straight women sometimes discover they are are bisexual or lesbian. It happens. It's a thing. (Although it has nothing to do with the hysterical anxiety that straight people can be "turned" gay by nefarious homosexuals.) So why can't it happen in comics too?

The resentment that "they" (lesbians) are taking something from "us" (straight men) just seems silly. The character was redundant after the cancellation of her second title. Why not try something different and simultaneously revive the Captain Marvel brand which legally needed to be used in order to stop the trademark reverting to the Fawcett/DC character?

Of course, as we're talking about an adaptation of the character in a new medium, Brie's version of Captain Marvel can be whatever Disney wants her to be.

As for the new version of Ms Marvel, I must admit that an overtly Muslim superheroine doesn't sit easily with me, for the same reason that I wouldn't want any superbeing to openly espouse Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism or any other religion. The idea of a being who has access to higher metaphysical knowledge remaining confident that the god of her scripture is the "right" one seems too much like an endorsement of that religion.

It just seems really creepy to have a superheroine telling us how great her religion is. Having said that, a superheroine porn parody of the Bibleman series would be awesome. Particularly if the sexy Biblewoman is a closeted lesbian who finds herself tempted to fuck a villainess.

[Mr. X]

I think the point he's making is more that it's a bit weird to be simultaneously constantly outraged by an evil corporate diversity agenda, in this case a miltary character's military style haircut, and simultaneously apparently quite happy with diversity, just so long as nobody draws it?

Do the people defending the skittles rainbow of diversity on this forum also demand trans and gay male characters in their heroine erotica? I don't see a whole lotta trans or gay male avatars. I do see definitely female and white female avatars.

It also seems odd people simultaneously demand diversity in everything who are apparently quite happy with diversity as long as their female (and mostly white) heroines aren't replaced by trans or gay actors.

[shevek]

Good point, Mr. X! I'm sure there are a fair number of straight SJW editors who are wringing their hands at how best to depict gay/trans characters, because for example they are doing a terrible job with the now fully gayed-up Iceman, who acts like he's a character on Will & Grace. I'm sure the Marvel editors are full of "straight guilt" - Diversity & Comics pointed out one tweet from a Marvel editor (I forget who it was, sorry) who literally apologized for not being bisexual. That's what happens when you deal in identity politics! Guess what, I'm writing fully fleshed-out lesbian and bisexual characters for my video series. Some Tumblr activist, some extremist third-waver somewhere is going to have a problem that my characters were created *at all* by a straight white cis male. I could give a fuck

OK I had already made a post but now I'm going to revise it based on your latest response, Heroine Addict, so here goes.

The point about Carol Danvers is not sales. If it was sales, then the current SJW Marvel editor board would be worried about the fact that they can only sell about 17,000 copies per issue (and that is total shipped to stores..we don't know how much of that is actual sell-through). And sure, that doesn't include digital sales, but guess what? Marvel does not release digital sales numbers. And the sjw audience that Marvel is vainly trying to appeal does not buy comics anyway..they read them online, or illegally torrent them, or just read *about* them to make sure the politics are correct, etc. I can guarantee you that the sales for the first two runs of Ms Marvel - even separated as they were by nearly two decades - were both WAY GREATER than 17,000 copies per issue. So was it really just consumer choice? Not really. Because right now, even though she's supposedly the flagship character of that universe, pretty much nobody is buying her book. Isn't that significant?

If it was sales, then sure you can look at the fact that two previous Ms Marvel runs were cancelled. But the second run was FIFTY ISSUES. That's four years and seems pretty significant. Furthermore when you talk about the longevity of her sexy costumes: she was in the first one (which was quite sexy) for about a year, Then she was in the second one for TWENTY FOUR YEARS (from 1978 to 2012). Not counting whenever she was Binary, which was also a great sexy costume. And yes Karla Sofen was hot, too, and thankfully still is (as far as I know).

Even when Carol changed her name to Captain Marvel, which she did officially in the first Kelly Sue issue in 2012, she still looked like a woman in the new [current] costume. Her hairstyle was different but still long in the back and not militarized. Her body was still shapely, her face was still classically beautiful. Near the end of that run, she had gorgeous long hair again, and was still beautiful, even if the art near the end of that run was terrible (which it was).

So now let's look at the second Kelly Sue run which started in 2014 and ended a year later with #15. Carol Danvers still had long hair, still had a fairly shapely body, etc. in 2015. During that period, Captain Marvel also had a fan club called "Carol Corps" which admired that particular Kelly Sue iteration of the character: strong, take-charge and sexy. Feminist too - obviously the Carol Corps had a strong feminist bent which is fine.
You don't hear much about the Carol Corps anymore (there was apparently a branch of it in my city which faded to almost nothing) but maybe you will again once the movie comes out.

So the overall history is way more than you're talking about with two cancelled series. Overall, we're looking at a period of 37 years in which Carol Danvers, in whatever costume she was in, was depicted as overtly feminine and sexy despite her awesome might!! And now, she isn't. Period.

Also it isn't about *being* a lesbian or even lesbianism *implied*. Carol Danvers has never been depicted as lesbian or bisexual, and still isn't, to this day. With Captain Marvel it isn't about "losing" a character to lesbianism (as you say) and it isn't about giving one up to the "lesbian team" (which hasn't happened anyway). In fact, I'd be perfectly fine if Carol Danvers discovered her bisexuality as long as she stayed feminine and sexy while doing it.

The issue is about losing *almost the entirety of Marvel books* (at least, the ones heavily promoted) to the Social Justice faction. And that includes the current Captain Marvel depiction. To the SJWs, what's important is the new Sexual Puritanism (a trait they ironically have in common with both
Islamic fundamentalists and right-wing Christians). Women must be utterly purified from the male gaze and de-objectified. Therefore, all aspects of the body associated with classical ("patriarchical") beauty traits must be discarded, in all cases. This is core third-wave feminist stuff.

Spiderwoman looks sexy? Put her in a drab costume wearing fucking sneakers. She-Hulk looks sexy and fun? Make her a miserable human being and a musclebound androgynous gray hulk. Squirrel Girl looks sexy? Make her ugly and looks like she has Down's syndrome, and turn her cheery personality into that of an annoying millennial braggart. Mockingbird looks sexy and has had sex with the likes of Hawkeye? Turn her into an annoying complainer who competes with men and demeans them. And of course there's no way in hell you could make a t**nage Muslim girl look sexy (see below). This is the agenda of Marvel. Using a phrase from Diversity & Comics, I call it the "B-Cup Agenda", because D&C has noticed that almost all Marvel female characters seem to have also undergone breast reductions in the past two years (to help eliminate the male gaze). They've even reduced Gamora's breast size - read her new series if you don't believe me.

It has happened. DC, on the other hand, has done NONE OF THESE THINGS to any of its characters (except on a couple of Batgirl-related books).
DC also has has very natural diversity, not forced diversity as Marvel does (see the paragraph below).

And in case you don't think all of the above instances were driven by a Social Justice perspective, then look at one of the other key agenda points the SJW team at Marvel has pushed, and how it interlocks with the third-wave/intersectional feminist perspective I described above. Another key push in the SJW Marvel is to eliminate the primacy of the cis-white-male characters. Kill them off (Hulk), depower them (Thor), make them look dopey (Spiderman), or give them unlikable character traits (like Hydra Cap). Don't forget to depict almost all of the villains as some kind of evil white man. Then, rather than creating innovative new characters, replace these white males with Persons of Colour: new Hulk is Chinese, new Spiderman is black, new Thor is female, new Iron Man is black female, etc. Look what happens when you violate the new Sexual Puritanism among that crowd: Riri Williams gets depicted as sexy by one artist, and all hell breaks loose from the Tumblrsphere.

Again, back to my point: what has been done to Captain Marvel/Carol Danvers in the past two years (the androgynization of her appearance and the militarized seriousness of her character) has been done to appeal to the [mostly imaginary] Social Justice contingent of readership and engineered by the Social Justice team of Marvel editors. These changes are unliked by a lot of longtime comic book readers. As you said, we can only hope against hope that the movie depiction of Captain Marvel will FORCE her comic book character back in a more mainstream, more commonly likeable direction. But don't hold your breath, because it really does seem like the SJWs have a stranglehold over there at Marvel.

In the meantime, re your auxiliary point about Ms Marvel: yes it is creepy that the book basically advocates Islam. If you think about it, how could
it not? The co-creators of Kamala Khan - G Willow Wilson and Sana Amanat - are Muslim. They could not say anything bad about Islam in that comic book (even though there's much bad to say - and a recent issue of Champions even went so far as to depict Muslim men oppressing girls). They could not really depict Kamala straying from her Muslim roots or violating any of the Muslim tenets. She could not be shown eating bacon or drinking beer, even though that would be perfectly *realistic* for a Pakistani-American teenager to try and do (I can almost guarantee you that Sana Amanat herself eats non-halal food and drinks alcohol, because she seems like a fairly liberal type). There are tons of American Muslims who violate traditional tenets of their ancestral faith because they see those rules as useless, outdated and stupid. But you will NEVER (and I mean NEVER) see a Marvel comic book
portraying a Muslim character violating Islam. Why do you think that is? Think maybe Marvel writers don't want to be Charlie Hebdo'd?

Note that Kamala is *tempted* in the book multiple times to do things against Islam but that she *never* does, and that Jersey City's fear of superheroes is written as an *metaphor* about Americans' fear of Islam. Even if the stories in the Kamala book occasionally rise to a decent level of fun and action (and I certainly have enjoyed watching her journey), there are always several levels of preachiness that readers have to wade through.
It's a soft and subtle form of indoctrination: "hey k*ds, Islam is just this cuddly lovable Hello Kitty of a religion that even t**nagers can love!"

[Femina]

It's worth remembering that the black costume was only ever a success with those of us who found it sexually appealing. The costume was brought in for Issue 20 of Ms Marvel Volume 1. This is after the covers of 17 and 19 had revealed a lot more skin by showing the original costume ripped to shreds. (A typical Marvel bait and switch. The actual costume damage in the issues was nothing like the lurid cover images with Ms Marvel's tits one inch away from flopping out of her destroyed costume.) Yet the new sexy revamped costume lasted for just four issues before the title was cancelled.

Then the 2006 revival managed to last for 50 issues plus 4 extras. With Karla Sofen in the original costume taking over from Carol for a significant part of that. Out of the 40 years Ms Marvel has been around, maybe 4 featured Carol in the sexy black costume as the main attraction in her own title. We may like it, but that costume wasn't much of a sales draw.

Which is why it seems a bit strange when there's such outrage at characters such as Ms Marvel being reinvented for new audiences. Consumer apathy took your sexy Ms Marvel away, not the SJW agenda. I don't see why previous (failed) versions should be preserved for the sake of nostalgia. The old comics are still out there and still available on ComiXology.

No seriously *F'k the black costume! This is actually a huge point of contention for me! Yes, aesthetically it was 'sexy' in that way that all superheroines in a leotards, high boots, and long gloves are undeniably sexy (I'll be the first one in line to say Supergirl 52's look made me salivate when it was revealed. I wanted to wear that shit!) BUT this goes right to the heart of sexy vs quality thing here. The STAR on Captain Marvel/Ms. Marvel's pre-black costumes MEANS something. It means something to the character, it was (and now is again) synonymous with who she was/is and the first person to tell me iconography isn't important in comic books can simply keep wondering why the Big S on supergirl alone is enough to get their blood pumping while I write them off as simply wrong. Superhero's emblems matter, and the black costume DIDN'T MATTER because it just totally ignored it and slapped on a lazy and meaningless lightning bolt and just was like 'here's a new costume!!!!! ISN'T IT SEXY!?!?!?!'
EDIT: As a physical representation of what I mean, please draw your attention to Lionbadger's commission up above. It provides all the sexiness of a leotard and high gloves/boots WITHOUT needlessly excising the iconography that IS Captain Marvel... what I'm getting at is that the Black costume was SHIT! (and that I love your commission Lionbadger, thanks for sharing it)

Sexiness does NOT equate to quality and in fact it can QUITE OFTEN detract from quality if used incorrectly or if it derails the plot or even just waists time (Just watch the wrong episode of Game of Thrones and try not to find yourself wondering what sort of scheming and plotting and character moments could have been squeezed into an episode in place of a seven minute long sex scene), nor however does sterility equate to quality. QUALITY equates to quality, it always has, and it always will indifferent of the parts and pieces utilized to make it quality. If done well, tastefully, and respectfully of the source/concept people will notice that something is good REGARDLESS of if we could catch a glimpse at Captain Marvel's nipple peaking through a tight costume or if she's wearing a frigging sturdy alien metal in which she's simply kicking ass and taking names. There's no sexiness in Iron Man's costume and people seem to think his movies rock and assuming the same CAN'T be true of a film about a superheroine IS sexist, plain and simple, because it is applying a standard upon it which does not exist in male dominated entertainment. I'm not telling people they can't like sexiness, sexiness is great, but I AM saying that when there is NOT sexiness in your female lead entertainment media wherever and whenever you want it, it isn't the end of the world, it isn't some grand conspiracy, it's the human race growing the f'k up.

SHiP is a moderately popular softcore porn fetish relegated to our VERY SMALL corner of the world/internet and contrary to what some of us might wish, it does not in any way constitute the thoughts and expectations of the IMPOSSIBLY large and widespread love of (ESCAPIST FANTASY) Superhero FILMS in mainstream entertainment (MANY such fans will actively avoid things that get to sexual or uncomfortable because of actual real life traumas and social stigmas that aren't anybodies business to judge or analyze). Individuals who expect such media to cater to SHiP or even just to keep things hypersexual under this absolute truth, while understandable from a perspective of personal enjoyment perhaps, is in no way fair to the rest of the world and in my opinion represents an overwhelming inability to separate sexual enjoyment from the rest of life and its infinite capacity for NONSEXUAL pleasures.

*sigh* Apologies for the rant.

ON to the topic at hand which is the costume itself. I think it's really really good. It is a damn good likeness to its comic book origins while adding that whole 'armored bad ass' flair without seeming to bulky and useless. Those concept arts look good, Captain Marvel looks good in them, smashing Skrulls with her fists is something I can't wait to see it actually completed and Brie wearing it. I also can't wait to see what the SHiP community comes up with involving Captain Marvel after the MCU shoots her popularity through the roof BUT I fully intend to separate my enjoyment of such things from my enjoyment of the film series overall.

[Philo Hunter]

As for the new version of Ms Marvel, I must admit that an overtly Muslim superheroine doesn't sit easily with me, for the same reason that I wouldn't want any superbeing to openly espouse Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism or any other religion. The idea of a being who has access to higher metaphysical knowledge remaining confident that the god of her scripture is the "right" one seems too much like an endorsement of that religion.

Maybe you haven't read them, or maybe your further along than me (I'm not caught up all the way), but that's NOT what I took away from those comics. I took that she is culturally Muslim, that her family is devout and its an important part of their identity and this hers, but that she personally doesn't care much about religion any more then most teens who accept their religion as a given and have not put much deep thought into it yet give it. And she's actively in like every other page doing things her parents and her imam (or whatever he's called) is telling her not to do. I never her read anything that made it think she actually believes in a god or that she has an higher metaphysical knowledge. She seems about as Muslim as Kitty Pride was Jewish. Not super actively, but its an important part of her personal history/upbringing. I think the big difference between her and Kitty when she first joined the X-Men is that we see Kamala's family and see them being actively religious, which isn't always played in a very positive light. Often their religious beliefs come off as being antagonists in her story. But again, I haven't read the whole run so maybe there is something I haven't gotten to later on.

SHiP is a moderately popular softcore porn fetish relegated to our VERY SMALL corner of the world/internet and contrary to what some of us might wish, it does not in any way constitute the thoughts and expectations of the IMPOSSIBLY large and widespread love of (ESCAPIST FANTASY) Superhero FILMS in mainstream entertainment (MANY such fans will actively avoid things that get to sexual or uncomfortable because of actual real life traumas and social stigmas that aren't anybodies business to judge or analyze). Individuals who expect such media to cater to SHiP or even just to keep things hypersexual under this absolute truth, while understandable from a perspective of personal enjoyment perhaps, is in no way fair to the rest of the world and in my opinion represents an overwhelming inability to separate sexual enjoyment from the rest of life and its infinite capacity for NONSEXUAL pleasures.

This right here! I feel like this is something I've tried to say in almost every thread that's devolved into this same argument but I've never managed to put it as clearly and eloquently. I don't mind sexy heroines, but i do NOT want my main stream comics to be a sexual experience in any way.

[lionbadger]

Do the people defending the skittles rainbow of diversity on this forum also demand trans and gay male characters in their heroine erotica? I don't see a whole lotta trans or gay male avatars. I do see definitely female and white female avatars.

Is this where the insecurities stem from? A simple misunderstanding?

It's quite possible to defend something new without demanding that everyone else give up their own individuality and pull on the new mao suit.

Divide and conquer is a good strategy but unite and lead is much better.

[Heroine Addict]

I think the point he's making is more that it's a bit weird to be simultaneously constantly outraged by an evil corporate diversity agenda, in this case a miltary character's military style haircut, and simultaneously apparently quite happy with diversity, just so long as nobody draws it?

Do the people defending the skittles rainbow of diversity on this forum also demand trans and gay male characters in their heroine erotica? I don't see a whole lotta trans or gay male avatars. I do see definitely female and white female avatars.

It also seems odd people simultaneously demand diversity in everything who are apparently quite happy with diversity as long as their female (and mostly white) heroines aren't replaced by trans or gay actors.

Well, this is a forum specifically for people who have an interest in superheroines, with the vast majority of members having a sexual fetish for superheroines in peril situations.

Gay superheroes don't enter into that. (No pun intended.) Not even via the back passage. (Shameless pun intended.)

Now, I have no objection to seeing more gay males in the mainstream. Torchwood's Jack Harkness is one of my favorite characters in the Doctor Who franchise. However, as a straight guy, there's no reason why I would talk much about gay male characters or have a gay male avatar on a forum where I mainly go to discuss erotic fantasy scenarios involving hot women in masks and tights.

As for non-white heroines, there aren't many to choose from in the mainstream and even slimmer pickings in the fetish genre. So there will obviously be far fewer avatars depicting heroines from ethnic minority groups. Particularly when the overwhelming focus is on Batgirl, Wonder Woman and Supergirl.

Besides, Shevek has a little cartoon of Dog the Bounty Hunter in his avatar. A man who faces heartbreaking discrimination and derision for still having a mullet in 2017. And Lionbadger has a very rapey critter in his avatar, so he's giving some representation to sexual deviancy in the animal kingdom.

[shevek]

OK, Heroine Addict, I'm going to respond later on to Femina and Philo's points, but I can't let your grievous mistake stand for even a few minutes.
My avatar is not Dog the Bounty Hunter. I barely know who he is and have never paid attention anything he's done.

My avatar is a screen shot of Caitlin Fairchild, mid-transformation, from the Gen13 cartoon movie. This was a full-length mainstream cartoon film aimed at k*ds and/or t**nagers. And yet they showed Caitlin the nerd with her breasts expanding, muscles exploding, clothing ripping, all while she was doing a combination of orgasmic moaning and angry growling. They also did the same thing (without the soundtrack, obviously) in the comic book version (Gen13 #1).

Now, I'm considerably older than people whose popular culture tastes were formed in the 90s, so that wasn't a formative scene for me..I just happened to discover it a few years ago, was suitably amazed by it, and I consider it one of the most powerful and sexy superheroine transformations ever. And yet..those who grew in the 90s (and are now in their mid-to-late 30s etc) might well have been impressed by such a scene to the point of, uh, stimulation, just like they might have been by watching the sexy ladies on the X-men cartoons, or episodes of Buffy, Xena, Dark Angel and Cleopatra 2525.

Which brings me to one of the points I'm going to make when I respond later to Femina and Philo.

Heroine Addict: are you now thoroughly embarrassed for not recognizing a core superheroine transformation fetish moment? I friggin' hope so

I just put it in my sig, so this won't happen again.

[Heroine Addict]

I was having a go at doing the "politically incorrect" stuff by suggesting the bulky lady (now identified as Caitlin Fairchild) in your avatar looks very mannish.

I haven't quite got the hang of "politically incorrect" yet. I'll try it out in a few situations and see what happens.

[shevek]

You definitely haven't got the hang of it. Because the transformation of a geeky science nerd/socially inept shy average girl into a muscular, shapely, large-breasted supersexy amazon (which is a muscle growth sequence, but not an extreme distorted version of it), or even just into a beautiful and shapely woman with superpowers, is NOT something that would ever be depicted in an SJW comic in a million years, since it's a perfect example of the realization of the male gaze fantasy (at least according to the average third-wave Tumblr feminist who would analyze it to death).

It is, however, a situation that has been depicted many times in 1) comics (Stunner, Titania, Looker, Silver Swan, Maya, Rampage, Sally Sonic, Enchantress..even She-Hulk for that matter, I could go on and on) before 2014, 2) there are entire groups devoted to such transformations on DeviantArt, and 3) sometimes in cartoons (Black Cat underwent such a transformation in a Spider-man cartoon for example) and 4) such transformations (sometimes back-and-forth from heroine to nerd to heroine again) have also been portrayed many times in SHIP videos (I own a bunch of them..often it looks like there's one or two people hiring various fetish models to perform the same custom). Transformations happen to be one of my things, which is why the Caitlin pic is my avatar. Nothing politically correct about it in the least. Even though there are also some women who apparently enjoy these transformations as well, because it makes them feel powerful and sexy.

Anyway if you want to try acting politically incorrect, trying watching the videos of these Youtube comicbook critics who take "SJW Marvel" to task, and you'll get the hang of it soon enough.

[shevek]

OK, I'm back, and now I'm going to respond to Femina and Philo on their basic point, which is that mainstream TV/movies/comics should not be "sexy"
and that the SHIP fetish should be kept separate and compartmentalized from that. "I do not want my mainstream comics [and from that, I assume both Philo and Femina extend that to TV and movies] to be a sexual experience in any way."

My answer is: well, it's your pregorative to think like that, but then again it's also rather disingenuous if not outright hypocritical. For starters, think of all the SHIP fans on this forum who obsess about the Supergirl TV show: they catalogue all the upskirt shots, they replay all the peril scenes in infinite loops, and they make X-rated photocomics from the interactions between Kara and Cat, and so on. I don't do any of that...I just like it best when the females on the show are in sexy costumes or maybe have a nice plain-to-sexy transformation (a la Silver Banshee or Indigo, etc.). That's it. But I still prefer it when there are some sexy things on that show, even if it's just watching Kara kiss Mon-El.

But for proof of the disingenuity of Femina/Philo's "never the twain shall meet" stance, we need look no further than the classic thread which has been periodically topped on this forum for almost four years - the "how did you get into SHIP" (or whatever it's called) thread, where everyone reveals their secret origin about how they were introduced to the superheroine fetish. And invariably, almost nobody says, "Well, I didn't know anything about superheroines at all, but one day I just stumbled onto Superheroine Central and I was hooked."

No..they almost invariably say something like how they were intrigued by the peril scenes in a TV show or carton or a movie (whether it's Batgirl or Wonder Woman or Gravity Girl etc), how it made them feel a certain way they hadn't felt before, excited and titillated. And many people say the same thing about the comics they grew up with, again citing WW but also maybe Vampirella and Red Sonja and others. So: SEXY COMICS and SEXY TV and SEXY MOVIES were what got the vast majority of us on this forum into SHIP in the first place. They were the gateway drug. And repeated dosage might get us into fetish more than once! For example, when I was younger I was attracted to the likes of Starfire and Wonder Girl, but then I didn't read comics for about 20 years, and when I came back to comics four years ago and found Sex Criminals (and soon, various others like Empowered), that feeling was reawakened, and helped encourage me to join this forum. And then you're going to deny that sexiness in mainstream media is of any importance? Come on. Sexiness in mainstream media is literally what creates people like us! Respectfully, it seems like you two are almost IN DENIAL of that fact.

When I castigate SJW Marvel (or really I just repeat the criticisms I see cogently presented on certain Youtube channels), what I do is lament that because of Marvel's extreme political correctness and neo-puritanism with regards to superheroine sexiness, that company becomes ONE LESS PLACE
in the mainstream media where one can perceive the sexiness peeking through. Which means it's one less vehicle for creating more SHIP fans, because that source of superheroines has been "de-sexified". Nobody who reads comics thinks the pseudo-lesbian Captain Marvel or the grey non-She-Hulk or the ugly Squirrel Girl or the burkafied Kamala Khan or the masculinized Kitty Pryde or the extremely annoying Riri Williams is sexy. Nobody. Maybe a handful think Jane Foster Thor is sexy and that's about it. The sexy quotient is down to nearly nothing at SJW . I doubt a whole lot of girls who read comics look up to those characters, either. You don't see them dressed as those characters at Comic Cons. What do you see them dressed as? That's right - Wonder Woman and Harley Quinn and Batgirl and Poison Ivy! DC characters who have remained sexy.

Which moves me on to my next point. Femina and Philo seem to think that when the mainstream media stops making women sexy in movies, TV, and comics that it means society has somehow "grown up". As if nobody who created a show, film or comic before in the past 70 years was "grown up"? Not only is that a ridiculous insult to generations of media creators (including the likes of Stan Lee or George Perez) but it's just untrue. More likely, people who have an agenda to create only non-sexy, non-objectified things aren't any more "grown up" than anyone else - they're just restrictive and have a stick up their ass about controlling other people's lives - they're just stuffy and puritan. They have a strident religion they adhere to, which follows some boring anti-escapism values - if that religion isn't "cover up your body" Islam or "stop talking about sex" Christianity, then it's "don't objectify my body" SJW-ism. All three, in my opinion, are illogical claptrap and something to flee from, as far as you can. Simply put, they all kill fun.

And you want to have fun, don't you? This is where the disingenuity comes in. You say your attitude about no-sexiness-in-the-mainstream is somehow the "grown up" one. But do you really have a "grown-up" attitude? In my experience, real "grown-ups" are stodgy and banal. They don't have cool sexy fetishes like we do - they just send their kids to school, go to work, come home and watch some boring TV, and go to bed. They consider superheroes to be "kids' stuff" and they don't engage in fandom of it. I don't personally want to be one of them.

We of the SHIP community, on the other hand, have found ETERNAL YOUTH. And not only that, anyone who is in their adult prime who still collects
comics has *also* found a way to preserve their youth. I'm a kindergarten teacher (I've said this before) and I have found that a lot of the Gen-X parents (mostly the guys, but also a few women) who are in their 30s and early 40s are still way into superhero comics and superhero TV shows and movies. Generation-X is the first-ever generation to consider superheroes to be more than just "kids stuff" - they consider them to be core adult pop culture and essentially the mythical pantheon of the West - and they pass on this love and lore and enthusiasm to their kids. I see a 35-year-old dad and his 8-year-old son talk with equal enthusiasm about the recent episode of Arrow. That has really never happened before. If you were 7 years old and in lust with Lynda Carter in the 1970s, you didn't talk about it with your 35-year-old Silent Generation father. Trust me - I know, I was there.

By continuing our love for comic book heroines into our adulthood, and furthermore translating that into both fandom and production of superheroine fetish videos, we are not being adults. We are pursuing our youthful interests and dreams, but simply using adult means to do so. Come on - we can all admit, when we watch SHIP videos and see tight costumes, we feel young and sexy, like we are still t**nagers. And that's a good thing, because it preserves our youthful attitude. (For an analogy, the same thing can be said about music. If as a 40-year-old you listen to some of the same music your child does, you feel younger because of it. But it has to be the cool stuff. If I see a 42-year-old goth mom who can share her love of Nick Cave with her teenage goth daughter, that is so damn fucking cool).

So there is no need to disparage anyone as being "grown up" or not. The point is simply whether we are able to pursue the pleasures that we know and love. Philo, if you pursue the pleasure by creating your extremely sexy comics, I applaud you for it. Femina, if you pursue the pleasure by creating your sexy heroine character in your stories, or however else you realize your fantasies, I applaud for that as well. And I see no need, necessarily, to keep the "world separate" (unless, of course, you really want to). Especially because when you do, suppression sets in, and you get these tight-asses like at SJW Marvel who wind up despising their whole comicbook fanbase, becoming hyper-sensitive to every criticism, and then blocking tons of people on Twitter who don't agree with their narrow political agenda. They might make a lot of money because they're employed by Disney, but they're not necessarily happy people, except when they get together and have a milkshake with their fellow SJW editors and brag amongst each other about how
superior their progressivist values are compared to the schlubs who buy their products.

Anyway.....I will look forward to a hopefully sexy Brie Larson as Captain Marvel on the big screen!

[Mr. X]

OK, I'm back, and now I'm going to respond to Femina and Philo on their basic point, which is that mainstream TV/movies/comics should not be "sexy"
and that the SHIP fetish should be kept separate and compartmentalized from that. "I do not want my mainstream comics [and from that, I assume both Philo and Femina extend that to TV and movies] to be a sexual experience in any way."

Yet apparently its OK when Chris Pine, Chris Hemsworth, Chris Pratt, Chris Evans, Henry Cavil, Ryan Reynalds, Hugh Jackman etc take their shirts off or do a booty shot scene or look all hunky in muscle shirts or wear skin tight super suits that accentuate every muscle. Yup those six pack abs shots aren't exploitation, no siree.

Some how that's magically different. Now cue the set of special pleading rules that only apply on a tuesday when the wind blows from the west. Oh but Mr. X.... that's different cause... blah blah blah... make up the rules... blah blah blah...

[shevek]

Mr. X, that's because the female gaze is empowering, while the male gaze is oppressive. Hence, double standard. Lucky for a little while there was a show like Powers which didn't care about that stuff: Olesya Rulin had a sexy costume, and Walker's violent love scene with Lynx? Mrrrrow!

And how this political correctness breaks down for lesbians who might like to look at beautiful examples of their own sex, I have no idea. Probably not big enough of a demographic. Although they're rebooting The L Word soon, so maybe that LGBT fervor could be translated into superheroine sexy times.

[Femina]

Oyvey, I can't be bothered to copypaste all of that, and frankly am almost to friggin tired to bother explaining all the ways you chose to misinterpret me but I've been SO misquoted (Without even being actively quoted so here's that in turn I suppose) that I simply have no choice but to say that if you read my comment as 'sex never ever ever belongs in mainstream media' then you weren't paying attention to any of what I wrote long enough to have any clue what I was talking about. I stated specifically that neither sex nor a lack of sex is a declaration of quality in a medium hence, why it's inclusion or lack thereof is virtually IRRELEVANT so long as the finished product is GOOD. It isn't that sex is bad, It's only that in MOST cases, to much inclusion of sex slows the narrative or comes off as cheesypop or else actively turns away viewers/participants who are actively put off by it (I am NOT one of those people, but my sister is and she has if not 'good' reason to be UNDERSTANDABLE reason) which are all simply reasons to say that sex does not need to be, and in fact often shouldn't be, in EVERYthing. This isn't to say all media should cut sex entirely either and if you read me that way, you've misunderstood.

Before I get to the next bit I'd like to express that I harbor no ill will to anybody on this forum. That when I speak to you all here, I try my best to do so on a post by post basis, reading ideas, sharing experiences and making arguments as I would had I no further knowledge of the individual. I can't say I always succeed 100% in separating the person from the post, but I try very hard to, and would hope that I at least am afforded the same courtesy. Simply to try and take each post (or conversation) as it is.

NOW shevek, as it seems that I am to be psychoanalyzed here as though by an incredibly offensive amateur psychologist based upon my choices to include a few tidbits about what got me into the SHiP fetish I'd like to preface my tale by informing you that what I wrote in the official 'What got us into this' topic was the cut and dry 'cutesy' aspects of the birth of my fetish that are fun and easily shared with other human beings who have similar interests nor would I assume that any other forum member here would choose to post their stories with any less care, BUT as I'm being analyzed as disingenuous like a cold duck on a slab seemingly based upon my every post here on this forum as if that were the whole of my being and not merely what I choose to share, I'll just go ahead and provide my analysts with the full hard facts of the matter so as to leave nothing unclear.

When I was maybe seven or eight my quite abusive stepfather asked me if I wanted to watch a movie, which being a human being who has always valued storytelling I very much did, but what he didn't inform me was that it was a pornographic anime film about super powered ladies and space agents or somesuch with included lots of tentacles and god knows what else. Confused, I watched the entire film. Now it didn't strike me at the time how deeply this may have affected me, but TWENTY years later I still remember it and it sure as shit had something to do with what my sexual issues are as a grown woman. (And YES these are ISSUES, not just sexual quirks, but things that affect my enjoyment of sex and life in general NOT always positively)

So what's the takeaway from this? Should I be grateful to my stepfather for introducing me into the world of female dis-empowerment and that it lodged in the back of my subconscious enough that as an adult it turns me on to the point where ordinary sex is literally the most boring waste of time I can possibly fathom? Grateful that a pervert dipshit fucking my mom decided he wanted to fuck with my head as well? As a REASONABLE and hopefully well adjusted adult (no such thanks of which goes to my stepfather) I don't allow this single moment to interfere with my rationale for how to behave around and treat other human beings but I DO allow it to color what I believe is and isn't appropriate to expose, say, a seven year old girl to in a Captain Marvel film and pose questions of sexuality MUCH earlier than is fair to said little girl simply because a few fetishist like me on the internet happen to find the thought of her (Captain Marvel to be very clear) being ass raped by a tentacle monster arousing. It's not a PERFECT analogy obviously, simply pretending like sex isn't a thing to children isn't of value either beyond a certain point but I've yet to see a film's plot which could possibly be enriched by such things, and I've yet to see the film where a boob window has any actual relevance to that films quality as a work, particularly in such silly corners as a Marvel film which has an intended audience of the entire family. Perhaps most importantly, it isn't our business as SHiP fetishists to RECRUIT more fetishists (or I guess in this case to actively work necessarily to provide avenues into it, the internet already exists and people who want to be here will and SHOULD find it ON THEIR OWN) there's also no LOSS when a human being finds sexual pleasure and identity elsewhere either, that isn't a thing worth worrying about and I don't know why you are.

So thanks for the analysis, but I'd prefer it if you left the analysis of who I am generated by the multitude of my many posts here to professional psychologists or at the very least to someone who isn''t going to misinterpret my basic principles in the future by lumping it in with others opinions until they both read one and the same and entirely inaccurate if you don't mind to much. Can we all please just get back to the topic of the costume and concept art?

[shevek]

I am sorry you took this so personally, Femina. My arguments were never intended to be any kind of attack on your personal life, and I never said that they were. In fact, the only personal reference I mentioned about you is that you like to write fetish stories (but so do I, and so do many of us). That's it. I am not sure how that was construed into anything more elaborate directed specifically at *you*.

I am sorry that incident happened to you. In no way do I think that porn should be shown to k*ds, ever, and that was definitely not what I was saying. I was saying that (in most cases) mainstream media laid the groundwork for someone's SHIP fetish, that people inclined to do so *do* find the sexiness inherent in some mainstream media productions (comics as well) and then apply it to their inclinations, and that's how they ended up here, and there's nothing wrong with that. I assumed that most people's SHIP fetishes were not induced by trauma (mine certainly wasn't). That is obviously not the case for you and I apologize for assuming that it was. It was actually brave and forthright of you to tell that story, and I apologize if it caused any harm.

I really find it out of sorts, however, that a simple argument about wishing that mainstream media (including comics) would retain some aspects of sexiness (as applied here specifically to the character of Captain Marvel) has come down to such personal acrimony. I didn't really want to convey any sentiment other than I hope that Brie and the costume look sexy on film. That's it! Sorry it spun out of control, I had no intentions of that.

-----

Philo - I just want to respond about Kamala Khan. Her attitude about Islam is not similar to Kitty Pryde being Jewish. The almost complete lack of practical Judaism in Kitty Pryde's story simply has to do with the fact that the writers were too lazy to write anything in about it. Most Jews are completely assimilated into American culture (except for the Orthodox) and conduct very few traditional Jewish practices. Kitty Pryde is simply one of them.

Not so with Kamala Khan. Sure, she's "assimilated" culturally, but not in a religious sense. In fact, almost all the marketing on the character has focused on how she's a strong representation of an American Muslim t**nager (Marvel has never said the same thing about Kitty). Nowhere in Kamala's books does the writer G Willow Wilson show Kamala actually violating any tenets of Islam. Instead, she is shown practicing the tenets in issue after issue. She's a diehard Muslim - the whole point of the book's creation counts on that.

In America, (and in France) there are tons of secularist Muslims who constantly violate traditional Islamic tenets and live fairly straightforward average Western lives. "Brown Sana" Amanat (as she self-identifies in the comic) wears no hijab and interacts with plenty of men at the Marvel offices. She lives a more average Western life than Kamala. Sure, the comics show Kamala being tempted, but ultimately she can never give into the temptation, because that would evoke a hue and cry of "Marvel is being Islamophobic". That eggshell-walking is the limitation of portraying a Muslim from an SJW perspective. Because you can't depict anything that would "insult" the religion.

I can easily imagine a non-SJW portrayal of a "Muslim" superheroine. Instead of Jersey City or Dearborn, set the story in Los Angeles, the home of thousands of Persian Shiite Muslims who are very assimilated to American culture (including a prominent SHIP actress. guess who?). Then make your heroine a spoiled Persian-American Princess who goes to an upper-class Beverly Hills high school and dresses sexily and chases boys like her friends. Maybe she does a couple of rituals now and then to please her family, maybe she celebrates Nowruz. But otherwise, it's not a part of her life at all and she's just an American mall girl. That's a perfectly realistic portrayal of a West Coast American Muslim, but it's one that you'll never see in SJW Marvel comics, because it would admit that religion is a mantle that can be discarded in the West. Because it can.

[lionbadger]

.... wishing that mainstream media (including comics) would retain some aspects of sexiness (as applied here specifically to the character of Captain Marvel) has come down to such personal acrimony. I didn't really want to convey any sentiment other than I hope that Brie and the costume look sexy on film.

But why do you even care so much?

You post all these great threads with ultra hot fetishy comics, so it's not like the itch isn't being serviced and there are a ton of producers here making fetish film, prose and comic content so I'm not sure why a slice in the middle aimed at a wide/different audience (whether it works or not commercially is a different issue) appears to impact your life so violently that it draws such constant ire and rage and huge posts about the ills of this vast army of SJWs (a term I've only ever read here).

[Femina]

I am sorry you took this so personally, Femina. My arguments were never intended to be any kind of attack on your personal life, and I never said that they were. In fact, the only personal reference I mentioned about you is that you like to write fetish stories (but so do I, and so do many of us). That's it. I am not sure how that was construed into anything more elaborate directed specifically at *you*.

I am sorry that incident happened to you. In no way do I think that porn should be shown to k*ds, ever, and that was definitely not what I was saying. I was saying that (in most cases) mainstream media laid the groundwork for someone's SHIP fetish, that people inclined to do so *do* find the sexiness inherent in some mainstream media productions (comics as well) and then apply it to their inclinations, and that's how they ended up here, and there's nothing wrong with that. I assumed that most people's SHIP fetishes were not induced by trauma (mine certainly wasn't). That is obviously not the case for you and I apologize for assuming that it was. It was actually brave and forthright of you to tell that story, and I apologize if it caused any harm.

I really find it out of sorts, however, that a simple argument about wishing that mainstream media (including comics) would retain some aspects of sexiness (as applied here specifically to the character of Captain Marvel) has come down to such personal acrimony. I didn't really want to convey any sentiment other than I hope that Brie and the costume look sexy on film. That's it! Sorry it spun out of control, I had no intentions of that.

It's fine, really. I wouldn't have posted it if I wasn't willing to talk about it 'at all' or anything. I did take some minor offense to the idea that since I'd participated in a previous forum threads being brought up like that was the end all and be all of my potential experiences so there was a bit of knee jerk reaction there (It was also pretty late) and hopefully I didn't bite your head off to much because I also meant what I'd said before that and I am a difficult person to actually 'enrage' or put off past the point where I am invested in closing communications (which is the least productive mentality a person can have). Mostly I was just unhappy to have my opinion that was somewhat similar with Philo's lumped together as though it were the SAME opinion (I don't have any issue with your opinions either Philo, differing oppinions are what keep the world from stagnation) and then losing all of the context of my opinions within that merger to the point where it wasn't actually what I'd said at all.

Basically I meant to illustrate that not everyone's experience to get to 'this point' of the SHiP fetish is the same, or even always positive and based upon my own experiences it's impossible for me (and I'm sure similar for those like me) not to place those experiences at the forefront of my idea of what the fetish is, and how much importance or lack thereof I place in it so far as looking to entertainment elsewhere and that I believe there are people out there who've had it much much worse than me who can't stomach the sight of two people having sex AT ALL and that it doesn't make them SJW's (or whatever) just because they don't want these early superheroine films to not be about sex appeal. What I am NOT saying is that I think sex appeal being in Captain Marvel is a bad thing, I'm only saying that if there ISN'T sex appeal in Captain Marvel it isn't the end of the world, and it could STILL be an amazing film that isn't a waste of time, and that it doesn't have to mean it's some 'SJW' Conspiracy either.

If nothing else, I'd say the concept art here shows a dedication to getting the costume right. It doesn't look bulky, it's got a good shape, but it looks tough as what I'm assuming might be Kree tech? might be. She's not wearing a crew cut (her hair is only about neck length sure... but that's loads better for me than a crew cut... even IF 'the mighty Captain Marvel' is (I think) actually making the crew cut work where I didn't feel like a lot of the previous books were.