My Adventures with Superman (AdultSwim/HBOMax animated, 2023)

[shevek]

I don't know why you'd want to watch this, but if you do, I won't fault you

Yes, this is that anime-influenced cartoon which has been much maligned on Youtube in the past week
for featuring Superman undergoing a magical-girl transformation into his costume the first time he puts it on.
It really does happen. He is the one called Sailor Man!

Lois Lane essentially looks like a boy with almost no breasts, despite being a fully developed woman in her mid-20s. Which is the same thing that happened to She-Ra in her recent cartoon revival. This is the least hot Lois Lane ever conceived.

lois lane is a boy.jpg (43.14 KiB) Viewed 3837 times

Also, Jimmy Olsen looks astonishingly close to Bow, also from She-Ra.
That's partially because Josie Campbell is writing this, and she also wrote many episodes of the new She-Ra.

There are four flipped characters in just the first two episodes: Jimmy Olsen, Perry White, Livewire, and the aptly named Newsgirl 'Flip' Johnson (who was a boy in the comics). I'm sure there will be many more.

This show is called "My Adventures With Superman" because the "my" refers to Lois Lane. She is the girlboss lead character of the show, a 20something reporter just breaking in with the Daily Planet as an intern, and Clark Kent and Jimmy Olsen are her 20somethingsidekicks. Everyone spouts zoomerisms galore. Superman is both her love interest *and* the background against which all of her investigative adventures take place. Hence "My Adventures" with Superman. Superman is simply the context within which Lois Lane operates. Every other scene has Clark Kent constantly validating Lois Lane, telling her how smart and capable she is. That's pretty much his function in this cartoon.
It could just as easily be called "Lois Adventures in Metropolis".

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The only other thing I'll say about this after watching the first two episodes is that obviously don't let anyone tell you "this show isn't for you - it's for the kids, so if you don't like it, don't watch it." There are reasons not to watch it, sure, but it's definitely not "for kids".

First of all, it's on both AdultSwim and HBOMax, which are adult channels. And secondly, there are definitely adult situations which you might not want to show to kids anyway. The biggest one in Episode 2 is the exquisite painful peril that Livewire endures, first with her electricity power overload (which kind of also looks like she's climaxing) and then with the torture she receives from Task Force X (aka Suicide Squad). If Livewire looked hot (as she does in every other appearance ever) that might qualify as superheroine peril, but unfortunately, they definitely intentionally make her look ugly so that the male gaze isn't satisfied. Good job, Josie Campbell.

I'll let you know what else happens so you don't have to deal with this (unless you really want to).

Here are two villains from the first two episodes. You would never in a million years guess that this is Livewire and Deathstroke,
so I have to inform you so you'll know that these are not just two standard-looking po-mo characters from every other cartoon in the past six years.

livewire and deathstroke.jpg (37.87 KiB) Viewed 3837 times

[Mr. X]

Plus he's got electric powers now for some reason.

[Dogfish]

Lois Lane has always been the boss and Clark and Jimmy have always been her sidekicks. I don't know why anybody would pretend that's a new take on the characters. Clark always plays the role of Beta Cuckington so that she never suspects him of being Superman.

Also Livewire looked like this on her comicbook debut:



She's clearly not meant to be hot.

Interesting they've got the voice actor of Boimler from Lower Decks as Superman. Might have to check it out just to see how he sounds as Superman, since that'd be something of a departture.

[Dazzle1]

Lois Lane has always been the boss and Clark and Jimmy have always been her sidekicks. I don't know why anybody would pretend that's a new take on the characters. Clark always plays the role of Beta Cuckington so that she never suspects him of being Superman.

Also Livewire looked like this on her comicbook debut:



She's clearly not meant to be hot.

Interesting they've got the voice actor of Boimler from Lower Decks as Superman. Might have to check it out just to see how he sounds as Superman, since that'd be something of a departture.

It depends which version.

In the comics and cartoon series, they are equals

In the tv series with George Reeves, he is the lead reporter.

[shevek]

Lois Lane has always been the boss and Clark and Jimmy have always been her sidekicks. I don't know why anybody would pretend that's a new take on the characters. Clark always plays the role of Beta Cuckington so that she never suspects him of being Superman.

Also Livewire looked like this on her comicbook debut:



She's clearly not meant to be hot.

Interesting they've got the voice actor of Boimler from Lower Decks as Superman. Might have to check it out just to see how he sounds as Superman, since that'd be something of a departture.

That's the single worst incident of cherrypicking I've ever seen. You went to the very first picture of Livewire at the very top of her character's Comicvine page and you cherrypicked it. Also, even the example you used is still butterface, at least with regards to the tight spandex costume.

And you even got the cherrypicking wrong. That photo, in fact, is not the first comic book appearance of Livewire. This is: Superman Adventures #5, from 1997. She is hot.

livewire debut Superman Adventures #5.jpg (341.86 KiB) Viewed 3655 times

That adventure was taken straight from Superman: The Animated Series, where LiveWire first debuted as a Bruce Timm character in 1996.

6523489-9a12b0b00ff1ac767ac92df9ddfa465c.jpg (47.19 KiB) Viewed 3655 times

She's hot in the cartoon. The accident where she gets shocked is sexy. The transformation where she creates her costume is super sexy.
She even describes it as "form-fitting", flirting in it with Superman. Her whole origin is hot: angry, second-wave feminist, and hot.

SHE WAS MEANT TO BE HOT FROM THE BEGINNING, by Bruce Timm.



Let's also go to the same issue in which you claimed she is not hot on the cover: Action Comics #834 from 2006.
Well, John Byrne didn't do the cover, for some reason. But he draws her hot throughout the book, because Byrne can't not draw hot.
Gail Simone tries her best to hate on men in this issue by making all the male characters nasty and unsympathetic, but she still
can't stop John Byrne from drawing a sexy Livewire.

Here's a sample page. You can hardly get more skintight than this.

RCO012_1469386674.jpg (523.44 KiB) Viewed 3655 times

So let's go back and make an official chronicles of Livewire's hotness using that same Comic Vine page you cherrypicked from:

New 52: Hot.
Justice League Gods & Monsters: Hot.
New Batman Adventures: Hot.
Justice League Unlimited: Hot.
Smallville: Hot.
Supergirl: Hot.
Young Justice Outsiders: Hot.
DC Universe Online: Hot.
DC Legends: Mohawk, but still hot.

There is, of course, one other aspect to Livewire in this new show that is different from every single other appearance as well.
I've already mentioned what that is.
Just like she did with many other characters in this show, Josie Campbell and the animators she worked with changed these two key aspects of the Livewire character on purpose: to make people like me mad, and for people like you to come to her defense and make excuses for her.
Her plan is definitely working.

Also you are just flat out wrong about Lois always being an absolute girl boss. That's just retconning comic book history. Clark Kent is often a bumbler, sure, but he's rarely, if ever, as much of a Beta Cuck as in this new show. Most of the time, as our previous poster said, he is an equal to Lois Lane in the same department. Certainly, that is true in the TV shows Superman and Lois, and the Adventures of Lois and Clark. Nor does he cuck around in Smallville. He's a pretty strong romantic lead. It used to be about equality of the sexes until about eight years ago. It isn't anymore.

You've got to have stronger arguments if you come at me with counter-claims. I see when things change. This isn't 1984. You can't wish history away.

[Dogfish]

You actually can wish history away, every new interpretation is equally valid as the one before it, and every interpretation that is no longer in use is dead.

[shevek]

You actually can wish history away, every new interpretation is equally valid as the one before it, and every interpretation that is no longer in use is dead.

You have literally no response to the clear and factual evidence I presented other than spewing a line of perfect postmodernist dogma?
(or anti-dogma, as the case may be)

Really?

[Dogfish]

No further response is necessary. Superhero characters don't look like that any more, any more than they look like Gold or Silver Age characters, or like they look like how they were in the 1990s.

Now they look like this. Lipless anime weirdos.

[shevek]

No further response is necessary. Superhero characters don't look like that any more, any more than they look like Gold or Silver Age characters, or like they look like how they were in the 1990s.

Now they look like this. Lipless anime weirdos.

Well, at least we can agree on that. I'm glad to hear it!

Superheroes look like whatever you draw them to be. The characters in My Hero Academia are both superheroic and anime, but they're not lipless weirdos. The Young Justice characters were *drawn* just fine (although a handful were flipped). In fact, our own cover artist Jason Wright did a lot of the coloring for the Internet advertisement on Young Justice Season 4, and all the characters looked just fine, pretty much like the 90s.

It is completely possible to draw either like the Bronze Age (70s-80s) or like the Copper Age (90s-00s), aka the two periods of comics when superheroines looked the sexiest).
You just have to do it. There are many artists who still do, and I back quite a few of their crowdfund campaigns both on IGG and KS.

Cartoons can do this as well. The art in the adult Harley Quinn is fine (it's the characterization and plots which aren't fine). The art on Miraculous Ladybug makes all the characters look appealing - nobody is a lipless weirdo. The art in Invincible and Super Crooks was great - even a little bit retro looking.

My point is that there is a specific *agenda* to make characters look weird and genderless. And shows like the She-Ra reboot and My Adventures with Superman are Exhibit One for that tendency because there are specific people behind it (like Josie Campbell) which impose it.

I'm going to continue to watch the show, just to see how bad it sucks in the coming months.

[sugarcoater]

I think you pretty much nailed it Shevek. Spot on.

[Mr. X]

There's purpose behind the character designs. Its not a fall out or accident or roll of the dice.

[shevek]

There's purpose behind the character designs. Its not a fall out or accident or roll of the dice.

Correct.

Third episode -

"Intergang" has been downgraded from a scary international criminal organization (as depicted in the comics) to a mercenary organization that takes over a single country (as depicted in Black Adam) to a neighborhood mafia in a downtrodden neighborhood in Metropolis (as depicted in Superman and Lois) to three ne'er-do-well twentysomethings who rob convenience stores.
Literally. That's what it actually says in the script.

The three members of "Intergang" are Silver Banshee, who has been downgraded from a near-invincible sexy magical being to a plain-ish girl wearing a sonic amplification mask which looks ugly; Mist, who has been downgraded from a super-smart scientist who gave himself intangibility powers and was a mortal enemy of Starman to a pratty kid who uses tech to turn himself invisible; Roughhouse, who has been downgraded from a fearsome, bulky Intergang henchman to a doofus-brained Fat Albert (yes, his actual name is Albert) who uses tech gloves to gain superstrength.

This just emphasizes the point that the whole series is a downgrade. Since Superman is a brand new twentysomething in this series, still learning his way around his powers and around the Daily Planet, he can't fight any serious villains. At least not yet.

I have two more She-Ra alumni to add to this disaster besides Josie Campbell: Jen Bennett and Diana Huh, who have been the directors for all of three episodes so far. They're keeping it very tight and in their family - it's the continuation of the She-Ra staff on another show, basically.

Remember that I said there would likely be lots more flipped characters? I was right. The staunch Daily Planet Reporter Ron Troupe, who has been featured in over a dozen different DC-related media in the past 40 years as a man, is now a woman: Ronnie Troupe. I'm thinking that the She-Ra writers have some of quota system: a set number of characters have to be female and/or black (or female *and* black), so they'll steadily change a number of characters to meet this goal.

But was it an interesting story? Barely. What's the point of even seeing Silver Banshee without her being in that sexy costume?
Campbell, Bennett and Huh are probably glad that people like me are annoyed by this.

Still watching, though, so you don't have to.

silver banshee.jpg (6.54 KiB) Viewed 3481 times

intergang.jpg (8.07 KiB) Viewed 3481 times

[Dogfish]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the fact it has She-Ra reboot alumni on it as a bad thing. That show did a lot better than the original. They know what they are doing and who the target audience is (the bad news is that it's probably not most of the folks here, but it's good news for the folks who like that kind of thing).

Also for the record, pretty sure almost all anime characters are lipless weirdos. I don't think I've seen more than maybe a couple where characters actually had lips. It's a very strange way to draw characters, and I think it's partly why anime characters end up looking so infantilised (but that's whole other conversation). Maybe it's just because I grew up on 90s animation so I think that looks best.

[DrDominator9]

Shevek, your selfless sacrifice of watching and reporting of this sub-genre show on our behalf is slightly reminiscent of embedded war reporting... slightly... but without the actual ordinance heading your way... unless one counts quotas as the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

[Freon]

I'm mildly enjoying the show so far, almost in spite of how stale the sum of its parts is. It's not very compelling, but it's fine for background noise with the occasional cool visual to look at when I tune back in. The anime-esque designs I could take or leave, but I will say I really appreciate the fluidity of the actual animation.

The big turnoff for me is the humor, because that's what it is: a humorous tone standing in for comedy substance. In that regard, it feels like a crappy webcomic, where the joke is that this or that character is demonstrated through facial expressions and voice volume to be a zany little cookster, but no actual comedy formula is used in the story to play off of the character's alledged quirks. I feel like lots of animation is falling back on this kind of shorthand for actual jokes and it makes the writing feel really amateur, almost juvenile. It always comes off like a western weeb teen misunderstanding the humor in anime (fitting for a faux-anime show, I suppose).

The real shame in that, and the reason I don't think the show will ever become particularly interesting, is that the Superman mythos is so wonderfully odd, but the villains and action of the show are the part the showrunners seem to want to look sleak and cool. If I had to predict based on what I've seen so far, we won't ever see Toyman or Mxy or even Bizarro or Brainiac because the writers will ironically find them "too silly" despite how loud and wacky they're trying to make every other aspect of the show.

[shevek]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the fact it has She-Ra reboot alumni on it as a bad thing. That show did a lot better than the original. They know what they are doing and who the target audience is (the bad news is that it's probably not most of the folks here, but it's good news for the folks who like that kind of thing).

I already said they know what they're doing. They've known what they were doing since the She-Ra reboot was entitled "Princesses of Power" instead of "Princess of Power". They were filling a quota.

But "better than the original"? By what metric, exactly? The original series had 93 episodes - the new one had 52.
Every single She-Ra cosplay I've ever seen at conventions recreates the old version.
The original series (and its counterpart, He-Man) created millions of appointment-television fans who represented an entire generation.
Is the same thing going to be said in a few years about the reboots?

I feel like lots of animation is falling back on this kind of shorthand for actual jokes and it makes the writing feel really amateur, almost juvenile.

Millennials were too busy to actually learn how to write in college because they were so busy being activists, and learning from their bubble
that skill and merit isn't valued now, just snarky one-liners which sound like they were taken from Twitter.

we won't ever see Toyman or Mxy or even Bizarro or Brainiac

No, we'll see at least some of those. They'll be flipped or altered in some way or another to match the show's faux-humor. They keep plundering random characters from the DC sandbox (like Mist) so they'll plunder those, too.

[sneakly]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the fact it has She-Ra reboot alumni on it as a bad thing. That show did a lot better than the original. They know what they are doing and who the target audience is (the bad news is that it's probably not most of the folks here, but it's good news for the folks who like that kind of thing).

I already said they know what they're doing. They've known what they were doing since the She-Ra reboot was entitled "Princesses of Power" instead of "Princess of Power". They were filling a quota.

But "better than the original"? By what metric, exactly? The original series had 93 episodes - the new one had 52.
Every single She-Ra cosplay I've ever seen at conventions recreates the old version.
The original series (and its counterpart, He-Man) created millions of appointment-television fans who represented an entire generation.
Is the same thing going to be said in a few years about the reboots?

I feel like lots of animation is falling back on this kind of shorthand for actual jokes and it makes the writing feel really amateur, almost juvenile.

Millennials were too busy to actually learn how to write in college because they were so busy being activists, and learning from their bubble
that skill and merit isn't valued now, just snarky one-liners which sound like they were taken from Twitter.

we won't ever see Toyman or Mxy or even Bizarro or Brainiac

No, we'll see at least some of those. They'll be flipped or altered in some way or another to match the show's faux-humor. They keep plundering random characters from the DC sandbox (like Mist) so they'll plunder those, too.

The reason you see the older version being cosplayed at cons is because people that are old enough to makes suits and cosplay grew up with what was on their TV when they were young. I will never be that into the later cartoon versions of Batgirl because I grew up watching the YC version. Sometimes you do get a new take on the character and it just clicks. The Gal Godot WW does that for me. I loved Linda Carter's version, but the Gal Godot version hits a bunch of buttons, too. I haven't watched the new She-Ra,so I don't have an opinion on that, but it wasn't written for me, either.

In five years it may be an entirely different scene as the horny 12 year olds of today start to go to out unsupervised.

As for the writing. Most television writing is awful. To fill a 22 minute slot with action and dialog week after week is really hard. Most shows are long forgotten and most of the nostalgia comes either from images or premises. Does anyone Rememberr a single word of dialog or plotting when you think of Dukes of Hazzard? No, you remember Daisy and the General Lee. you didn't give a shit about the rest. Terri Hatcher getting tied up was the main reason to watch Louis and Clark. Adult swim is for kids that want to watch something that isn't age appropriate. Mysogeny with training wheels.

[Freon]

No, we'll see at least some of those. They'll be flipped or altered in some way or another to match the show's faux-humor. They keep plundering random characters from the DC sandbox (like Mist) so they'll plunder those, too.

I'm doubtful. The reason they're using random characters, half of which aren't even in Superman's rogues gallery, seems to me to be because those characters have less outlandish powers or costumes or gimmicks than villains from Supes' personal lineup. Everybody has to be all badass and guns akimbo instead of comic book-esque. Why does Deathstroke need to be in a Superman show?

I don't mind characters being "flipped", as you call it. They haven't done it to a degree I find overbearing at all. I don't care if they bring out Toywoman or Miss Mxyzptlk as long as they feel like actual supervillains instead of henchmen from a bad action movie. Mxy's shifted way more radical traits than his gender. I don't care, just like... it's a Superman cartoon. It should have some of that comic book whimsy.

[Mr. X]

Could also be there's no royalty or license issues with those characters. Superman license is spendy enough. Also comics act as a copyright refresh. That's why you see obscure guests now and then or the character falls into public domain.

[Freon]

I could be wrong but if WB owns both Max and DC, you'd think that would be a non-issue though and the showrunners would have any character they want at their disposal.

I could see that being a problem with Marvel media since there was a lot of reckless abandon with rights before Disney bought them, but WB has owned and licensed the entirety of DC for quite some time, with the only exception being release/streaming rights to (some of) the shows made before ownership, such as the 60s Batman TV series.

[shevek]

The reason you see the older version being cosplayed at cons is because people that are old enough to makes suits and cosplay grew up with what was on their TV when they were young.

Not quite. I don't see mid-40s MILFs from the 80s cosplaying She-Ra (well, it's possible that I did see at least *one* over the past couple years). Intricate cosplay is mainly a 20-something's game, and I've seen dozens of 20-something She-Ra cosplayers sporting a faithful original outfit. Sorry, man, but it's true!

I'm doubtful. The reason they're using random characters, half of which aren't even in Superman's rogues gallery, seems to me to be because those characters have less outlandish powers or costumes or gimmicks than villains from Supes' personal lineup. Everybody has to be all badass and guns akimbo instead of comic book-esque. Why does Deathstroke need to be in a Superman show?

I don't mind characters being "flipped", as you call it. They haven't done it to a degree I find overbearing at all. I don't care if they bring out Toywoman or Miss Mxyzptlk as long as they feel like actual supervillains instead of henchmen from a bad action movie. Mxy's shifted way more radical traits than his gender. I don't care, just like... it's a Superman cartoon. It should have some of that comic book whimsy.

We'll see, and I agree with your disappointment that the rogues they are fighting are petty and underpowered, not to mention why do I want to see Slade and Waller in a Superman show. But they've already used at least one major Superman rogue: Silver Banshee, and they depowered her. So it's very possible they may do the same to other major rogues in the near future.

"Flips" can be gender, race or sexual orientation. (I mean, I guess you could also make someone disabled, but that's not often done)
So that's why I use that shortened term to refer to all three, and also in this case in honor of the writers flipping 'Flip' Johnson.

"Overbearing" is not the word I would use. Relentless and agenda-driven is more accurate. The point is to subvert the perception of the average young viewer who doesn't know the lore, while annoying the hell out of any fan who does know the lore. This is done on purpose: the 'gingercide' chart (over 30 characters, at this point) alone makes it clear how frequent the flips have been.

P.S. There already was a "Miss Mxyzptlk" for several episodes on the Supergirl TV series: Nyxly. She wasn't flipped, though - she was just the girlfriend or wife of Mxyzptlk in the comics, but decoupled to form her own villainous arc.

[VegaTaxeca]

I could be wrong but if WB owns both Max and DC, you'd think that would be a non-issue though and the showrunners would have any character they want at their disposal.

I could see that being a problem with Marvel media since there was a lot of reckless abandon with rights before Disney bought them, but WB has owned and licensed the entirety of DC for quite some time, with the only exception being release/streaming rights to (some of) the shows made before ownership, such as the 60s Batman TV series.

It is not always as straight forward as one might think. E.g. the Arrowverse shows did not have the rights to all the DC characters (at least not in the beginning). In that case though it was most likely because they wanted to reserve those characters for the DCEU movies.

[Freon]

Even so, it seems like a really poor decision on someone's part to grant them the rights to Superman and not his own cast of supporting characters. It's one thing when there's real red tape involved, as is the case with Spider-Man in the Sony vs. Disney debacle, but even in the Arrowverse scenario, it sounds like it's someone at WB simply deciding they'd rather reserve the right to use those properties for something else without any negotiations since, athe end of the day, Cw DC and WB are all under one conglomerate.

[Freon]

"Overbearing" is not the word I would use. Relentless and agenda-driven is more accurate. The point is to subvert the perception of the average young viewer who doesn't know the lore, while annoying the hell out of any fan who does know the lore. This is done on purpose: the 'gingercide' chart (over 30 characters, at this point) alone makes it clear how frequent the flips have been.

To me that doesn't sound especially sinister. If they want to make their versions more diverse and make the lore more accessible to a younger, more diverse audience, good on them. Granted, that kind of thing can be done in a patronizing, counterproductive kind of way (see: a certain other animated show streaming on Max that starts with a "V"), but here it hasn't been brought up to my knowledge. The characters' races, genders, and orientations are treated as incidental within the context of the show, and aren't stressed in any way that comes off as pandering or obnoxious.

All-in-all, I don't feel like the show is "talking down" to fans, that's not my issue with it. If you feel like it's some subtle attempt to troll fans of the classic comics and past iterations, though, I will say that your earlier posts come off as the kind of things a troll like that would eat up. If I thought it was purposefully annoying people, I wouldn't even give them the satisfaction of reviewing it.

P.S. There already was a "Miss Mxyzptlk" for several episodes on the Supergirl TV series: Nyxly. She wasn't flipped, though - she was just the girlfriend or wife of Mxyzptlk in the comics, but decoupled to form her own villainous arc.

I haven't seen much of the Supergirl show, but there's also Gsptlsnz, who was Mxy's wife (or at least live-in girlfriend) in Superman TAS and, as I understand it, was in the comics too.

[shevek]

To me that doesn't sound especially sinister. If they want to make their versions more diverse and make the lore more accessible to a younger, more diverse audience, good on them. Granted, that kind of thing can be done in a patronizing, counterproductive kind of way (see: a certain other animated show streaming on Max that starts with a "V"), but here it hasn't been brought up to my knowledge. The characters' races, genders, and orientations are treated as incidental within the context of the show, and aren't stressed in any way that comes off as pandering or obnoxious.

All-in-all, I don't feel like the show is "talking down" to fans, that's not my issue with it. If you feel like it's some subtle attempt to troll fans of the classic comics and past iterations, though, I will say that your earlier posts come off as the kind of things a troll like that would eat up. If I thought it was purposefully annoying people, I wouldn't even give them the satisfaction of reviewing it.

Again, I didn't say it was sinister. I used two very distinct adjective: relentless and agenda-driven.
Relentless - because everything these ideologues are ever involved with always incorporates their ideology (as you've said, various degrees of blatancy).
Agenda-driven - Following specific procedures and paradigms, as I've outlined.

That's it. As you've pointed out, Velma is an extreme case of it. She-Ra is an average case. MAWS somewhat less so. The only difference is degree. But it's always there.

P.S. There already was a "Miss Mxyzptlk" for several episodes on the Supergirl TV series: Nyxly. She wasn't flipped, though - she was just the girlfriend or wife of Mxyzptlk in the comics, but decoupled to form her own villainous arc.

I haven't seen much of the Supergirl show, but there's also Gsptlsnz, who was Mxy's wife (or at least live-in girlfriend) in Superman TAS and, as I understand it, was in the comics too.

Yes, "Nyxly" is a nickname for Gsptlsnz, so she is the same character. Not flipped. Just made explicitly evil. The same procedure that they did to Looker on Black Lightning.

[Dazzle1]

Lois Lane has always been the boss and Clark and Jimmy have always been her sidekicks. I don't know why anybody would pretend that's a new take on the characters. Clark always plays the role of Beta Cuckington so that she never suspects him of being Superman.

Also Livewire looked like this on her comicbook debut:



She's clearly not meant to be hot.

Interesting they've got the voice actor of Boimler from Lower Decks as Superman. Might have to check it out just to see how he sounds as Superman, since that'd be something of a departture.

That's the single worst incident of cherrypicking I've ever seen. You went to the very first picture of Livewire at the very top of her character's Comicvine page and you cherrypicked it. Also, even the example you used is still butterface, at least with regards to the tight spandex costume.

And you even got the cherrypicking wrong. That photo, in fact, is not the first comic book appearance of Livewire. This is: Superman Adventures #5, from 1997. She is hot.

livewire debut Superman Adventures #5.jpg

That adventure was taken straight from Superman: The Animated Series, where LiveWire first debuted as a Bruce Timm character in 1996.

6523489-9a12b0b00ff1ac767ac92df9ddfa465c.jpg

She's hot in the cartoon. The accident where she gets shocked is sexy. The transformation where she creates her costume is super sexy.
She even describes it as "form-fitting", flirting in it with Superman. Her whole origin is hot: angry, second-wave feminist, and hot.

SHE WAS MEANT TO BE HOT FROM THE BEGINNING, by Bruce Timm.



Let's also go to the same issue in which you claimed she is not hot on the cover: Action Comics #834 from 2006.
Well, John Byrne didn't do the cover, for some reason. But he draws her hot throughout the book, because Byrne can't not draw hot.
Gail Simone tries her best to hate on men in this issue by making all the male characters nasty and unsympathetic, but she still
can't stop John Byrne from drawing a sexy Livewire.

Here's a sample page. You can hardly get more skintight than this.

RCO012_1469386674.jpg

So let's go back and make an official chronicles of Livewire's hotness using that same Comic Vine page you cherrypicked from:

New 52: Hot.
Justice League Gods & Monsters: Hot.
New Batman Adventures: Hot.
Justice League Unlimited: Hot.
Smallville: Hot.
Supergirl: Hot.
Young Justice Outsiders: Hot.
DC Universe Online: Hot.
DC Legends: Mohawk, but still hot.

There is, of course, one other aspect to Livewire in this new show that is different from every single other appearance as well.
I've already mentioned what that is.
Just like she did with many other characters in this show, Josie Campbell and the animators she worked with changed these two key aspects of the Livewire character on purpose: to make people like me mad, and for people like you to come to her defense and make excuses for her.
Her plan is definitely working.

Also you are just flat out wrong about Lois always being an absolute girl boss. That's just retconning comic book history. Clark Kent is often a bumbler, sure, but he's rarely, if ever, as much of a Beta Cuck as in this new show. Most of the time, as our previous poster said, he is an equal to Lois Lane in the same department. Certainly, that is true in the TV shows Superman and Lois, and the Adventures of Lois and Clark. Nor does he cuck around in Smallville. He's a pretty strong romantic lead. It used to be about equality of the sexes until about eight years ago. It isn't anymore.

You've got to have stronger arguments if you come at me with counter-claims. I see when things change. This isn't 1984. You can't wish history away.

Superman never had any real good super villaness, the best was either Volcana or Mercy Graves. Livewire was pretty tiresome you were waiting or hoping for Poison Ivy to kill her when they teamed up

[shevek]

Superman never had any real good super villaness, the best was either Volcana or Mercy Graves. Livewire was pretty tiresome you were waiting or hoping for Poison Ivy to kill her when they teamed up

Uh...other than Silver Banshee, there's Faora, Ursa, Maxima, Queen of Fables, Knockout, Superwoman, Insect Queen...?
I've checked the list, and everyone except Granny Goodness on that list is super hot. You know they were all attracted to him even when they were in combat (well, maybe not Knockout, knowing how she swings). Some of them even wanted him to impregnate something or other. Good job keeping things sexy, DC!

[Dazzle1]

Superman never had any real good super villaness, the best was either Volcana or Mercy Graves. Livewire was pretty tiresome you were waiting or hoping for Poison Ivy to kill her when they teamed up

Uh...other than Silver Banshee, there's Faora, Ursa, Maxima, Queen of Fables, Knockout, Superwoman, Insect Queen...?
I've checked the list, and everyone except Granny Goodness on that list is super hot. You know they were all attracted to him even when they were in combat (well, maybe not Knockout, knowing how she swings). Some of them even wanted him to impregnate something or other. Good job keeping things sexy, DC!

Sorry none of them compare to:

Batman : Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Lady Shiva
WonderWoman Any of the cheetahs, Giganta or Silver Swan
Green Latern Star Saphire

[Dogfish]

The first episode is on the Youtubes.



Looks fine. Nice robot fight at the end. A return to Boy Scout Superman, which is the best kind.

[Mr. X]

Lane wasn't bad looking. Pretty chatty and full of tropes. And they handicapped superman. Yes I like boy scout superman over broody superman.

[Dogfish]

Lane wasn't bad looking. Pretty chatty and full of tropes. And they handicapped superman. Yes I like boy scout superman over broody superman.

It's a problem when he's new and hasn't got a generally invulnerable costume handy. He has to find a disguise and whatnot.

I like his physical presence in this too, he's a proper big old farm boy, awkward and nieve but still a tank. Makes it easier to sell the Clark Kent disguise through body language alone.

It's funny how he dwarfs Lois too, despite her having enough energy and ego for a person three times her size.

[Mr. X]

Yeah except for the chattiness I didn't see all that much bad in it. Would hate it if Lois was always saving him by flipping the right switch all the time. I can see him nervous about cutting loose especially since he breaks door handles all the time. I like he uses super speed as a tool unlike TAS superman who just stood and got punched like a bag of wet cement.

[Mr. X]

Seeing more of this Lois is actually pretty good. She genuinely likes Clark, yes Clark and she doesn't treat him like crap like almost every other version of Lois. She's naive, spunky, has a bit of curve, isn't condescending to Clark.

[Dogfish]

Seeing more of this Lois is actually pretty good. She genuinely likes Clark, yes Clark and she doesn't treat him like crap like almost every other version of Lois. She's naive, spunky, has a bit of curve, isn't condescending to Clark.

Also Clark is less of a doormat than it first seemed, and he's charismatic on his own. They also have instant romantic chemistry, which I like. I mean when you get to the heart of a Lois Lane centric superman story a big chunk of the story will probably be about the love triangle between Lois and what she believes are the two different men, Superman and Clark.

[Dogfish]

I suspect this show is definitely finding a fanbase.

[shevek]

This show is walking a fine line.

It doesn't show anyone with actual powers other than Superman. Everything else in the show (so far) is powered by technology, including this week's Villain of the Week, who is a maniacal tech-bro entrepreneur (he even uses the phrase "quid bro quo") who mashes up Professor Ivo, Amazo and Parasite into one character. Any sense of canon is pretty much entirely out the window. But you can tell that everything is going to be about tech (although maybe, tech will eventually give someone powers?). That has to eventually lead up to Lex Luthor, doesn't it? I mean, he's the guy with the most tech.

Again, the show's lead character is Lois Lane. Here, we finally see the first real hints of femininity. In the beginning, she still looks a boy, even attending a fancy gala wearing an androgynous pantsuit. But as soon as she's not "all business" anymore, and her romantic side starts peeking in,
she starts acting like a girl:
1) sewing Clark's suit jacket
2) visible blushing on her cheeks
3) taking off her androgynous jacket and twirling around, showing her sexy back to Clark
4) suddenly growing boobs that she essentially didn't have before under any of her work shirts
5) kissing Clark and putting the moves on him, asking him to walk her home

You can literally track her getting more feminine as Episode 4 progresses.

Will she stay that way in future episodes. We shall see.

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Also, check out the very carefully placed "representation" amongst the finer bachelorettes of Metropolis.

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Meanwhile, I'm not imagining any of this beauty stuff. Vee tracks the disappearance of female beauty in video games and movies etc.

[Dogfish]

Just going to chalk the idea of female beauty leaving videogames up to your boy being some kind of fake nerd.

Hotties abound in videogames, even the female demon monster thing in Diablo 4 is hot (or I guess coded hot, not into demons myself).

There's probably one or two examples around where a main female character isn't hot, like Horizon Zero Dawn or something, but it's generally the exception.

Things have moved on so much in the field of hotness in videogames that to argue games are somehow less horny than before betrays a commentator as a liar and likely a fraud. I've seen the 'sex scenes' that got GTA San Andreas banned, and I've played Cyberpunk 2077. We're definitely living in a hornier age.

Meanwhile when it comes to movies I don't see Margot Robbie struggling to find work and she's hot as fuck.Or Zendeya. Or Scarlett Johansson. Or Charlize Theron. Or Florence Pugh. I mean it seems pretty weird that to say that female beauty is not being featured and yet there are absurdly beautiful women being featured in movies all the time.

Man's just making shit up.


My beef with things being less horny that I mentioned in a different thread was more specifically with regard to superheroine costume design. That's a bit of a niche field. In that regard there seems to be a sense that the idea of the superheroine costume as a kind of leotard/catsuit/bodysuit whatever you call it has to still be a thing, but a refusal to lean into the inherent sexiness and impracticality of such a garment. So you have somebody like Black Widow all covered in pouches and pads and webbing and whatnot to the point where you might just as well stick her in actual tactical gear. Or Catwoman in that weird knitted mask thingy, what the shit even was that? If you're a filmmaker making a superhero movie but you're ashamed of the inherent silliness of the subject matter don't make it, damn.

[Mr. X]

Meanwhile when it comes to movies I don't see Margot Robbie struggling to find work and she's hot as fuck.Or Zendeya. Or Scarlett Johansson. Or Charlize Theron. Or Florence Pugh. I mean it seems pretty weird that to say that female beauty is not being featured and yet there are absurdly beautiful women being featured in movies all the time.

So we see this

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Or this all the time?

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Pugh looks like that?

BTW does Pugh compare to this level? Except for Ghost in the Shell can you show Johanson showing this level of skin? Any main stream actress in Marvel or DC showing this level? I know Gadot showed some in Fast and Furious but that was a while ago.

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Tell you what. In the last 5 years of DC or Marvel movies show use one set of obvious cleavage. Obvious not just an accidental peak or some slight unzipped top.

[VegaTaxeca]

Scarlett Johansson did in Under the Skin, which was 10 years ago (though admittedly was not exactly a blockbuster).

[jlocke]

I just downloaded a great video about this so I grabbed a few screencaps.

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[jlocke]

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[jlocke]

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[Dogfish]

Yeah the Marvel/Disney movies know very well what they are allowed to get away with to be shown in shithole censorious despot countries, and since patriarchal societies have no problem with muscly dudes because is all very straight and macho, we get loads of them because it's the only fanservice they can get away with.

This is why I don't necessarily blame Marvel/Disney for this crap. There are clearly horny people working on these movies, they're just being forced to make them acceptable in countries where being an attractive woman and showing a bit of skin is a capital offence.

Back when the USA was actively trying to corrupt that kind of shithole country with it's rock and roll soft power the hotness was part of the message. Now it's po-faced to get the Chinabux.

But that's largely a problem with the blatantly corporatist mass media output from the likes of Disney and so on.

Plenty of hotness flying around if you step a little way back from the big tentpole pictures.

[Mr. X]

supergirl.jpgvalkyrie.jpgww.jpg

Thanks for the pics from old movies and TV shows. So are those circa 2000? 2010? And Super hero related? Yeah there are some OLLLLDDD movies of Johanson being topless. Bravo.

[Mr. X]

Yeah the Marvel/Disney movies know very well what they are allowed to get away with to be shown in shithole censorious despot countries, and since patriarchal societies have no problem with muscly dudes because is all very straight and macho, we get loads of them because it's the only fanservice they can get away with.

This is why I don't necessarily blame Marvel/Disney for this crap. There are clearly horny people working on these movies, they're just being forced to make them acceptable in countries where being an attractive woman and showing a bit of skin is a capital offence.

Back when the USA was actively trying to corrupt that kind of shithole country with it's rock and roll soft power the hotness was part of the message. Now it's po-faced to get the Chinabux.

But that's largely a problem with the blatantly corporatist mass media output from the likes of Disney and so on.

Plenty of hotness flying around if you step a little way back from the big tentpole pictures.

[jlocke]

supergirl.jpgvalkyrie.jpgww.jpg

Thanks for the pics from old movies and TV shows. So are those circa 2000? 2010? And Super hero related? Yeah there are some OLLLLDDD movies of Johanson being topless. Bravo.

You're very welcome for the boobs. Though I detect just a smidge of sarcasm

[shevek]

They did it again. Main writer on Episode 5 is M. Willis (yet another She-Ra alumna).

Another flip: Heat Wave isn't Mick Rory; instead, it's a woman who looks like a man.

Using tech, of course. Because all of this villainy is just tech. Did they get that tech by back-engineering it from a Kryptonian spaceship?
I guess we'll find out.

Also, Lois does what she always does in every iteration: jumps off a building on purpose to force Superman to save her.
At least that's something very familiar.

[shevek]

Episode 6: One of the three writers of this episode worked on The Loud Family, a 2016 cartoon about a family with 11 kids, whose parents were a gay male couple (the first in a kids' cartoon, apparently).

Lo and behold, who are the antagonists (if you can even call them that, since they present no real threat) in this episode?
Monsieur Mallah and The Brain! And I think by now, you know exactly the deal of how those two have been presented lately.

Anyway, the episode presents Mallah and Brain as the main runners of "Cadmus", which doesn't jibe well with ahy other presentation of Cadmus in any comic, cartoon or live-action shows. It sounds like they just took the name as representing an "evil experimentation lab" and then just ran with it.

And here comes the didactic moment:
Brain to Superman: "Come with us. You are different. Strange, like us. And this world, it's not so forgiving of that."
Superman to Brain: "I have to stay. I have to believe this world can be a place where everyone's accepted, and I need to help it get there."

Since when was that Superman's mission? Isn't he supposed to save people in danger and protect the planet? Not teach everyone how to be buddy-buddy.

Also, we have a bone thrown to Mr. X, who is indeed correct about the high frequency with which this occurs: Superman's shirt gets torn off and we see his muscular body for a few minutes until Lois throws her coat over him (it doesn't quite fit, so we continue to see his muscles for a few more minutes).

And finally, it's still all just tech tech tech. Nobody with powers. I sense that trend may continue.

[Dogfish]

Since when is that not Superman's mission? Here's fairly famous poster from 1949 for example.



Other than like the five seconds when Zack Snyder appropriated the character and tried to wreck it by making him into angry Jesus, Superman has always been a good dude who wants to make the world a better place by encouraging people to be excellent to each other.

[Mr. X]

Since when is that not Superman's mission? Here's fairly famous poster from 1949 for example.



Other than like the five seconds when Zack Snyder appropriated the character and tried to wreck it by making him into angry Jesus, Superman has always been a good dude who wants to make the world a better place by encouraging people to be excellent to each other.

He also sold Twinkies. Does that mean we chuck out everything else in the comics about him and say he's a twinkie salesman?

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