The Ultimate Superheroines Forum

For a real heroine like Batgirl for example how damaging is it really when her secret identity is revealed?

I mean surely if she knows it has been revealed BEFORE somebody finds her at work or wherever she can just go inot hiidng?

Or is losing your secrets the end of crimefighting or even worse ...Just muling it over...

It depends on the heroine. For Batgirl, being revealed as Barbara Gordon would be devastating. It would basically mean a lifetime of looking over her shoulder. Her father would also be targeted for revenge attacks. She could never hold down a regular job. She could never form relationships. She could never have a permanent address.

That's what makes unmasking so tantalizing to me. Batgirl would be destroyed and Barbara Gordon would be massively compromised.

She starts off in a position of power, beating the villain. Then there's a reversal of fortune and she's captured. Finally, the villain pulls back the mask and effectively kills the Batgirl identity.

Now imagine a city in which the nefarious affairs of organised crime, corrupt cops and politicians are being stopped or at least interfered with by one or more masked heroines and heroes [even if only at a Kick-Ass level]. Anyone related to or associated with an unmasked crime fighter would be targets for revenge, either to force a tortured captive to reveal her/his comrades, or in the belief that one or more of them must be the other characters. Hence the need for masks, cowls and other disguises.
But I return to an earlier comment elsewhere on this site: in these days of digital surveillance and facial mapping software, individual tracking software etc, it is becoming harder to support the idea that even a masked character's identity would go unknown for long. This might perhaps be the kernel of a whole new saga, where an agency exists simply to identify and track superheroines and heroes, kind of Super Person Of Interest.

On the other hand, a superhero/ine with a secret identity isn't fighting crime 24/7. This means that the criminals get a break for a few hours.

I think this depends a lot on how much is actually invested in the character's 'real' identity. If they are a lawyer or prominent public figure then they are easily identified and they stand to lose everything in their real life. Likewise if they have many loved ones then the outing of their identity puts all those loved ones' lives at risk, and it makes the heroine vulnerable in a big way. That last point seems to me the main reason they would *really* need a mask and hidden identity - to make them unassailable as a person. As much as they can go into hiding and try to protect their loved ones, the life they have built for themselves as a human being is over; even if the life as a heroine can continue.

But if the character is like Rorschach from the watchmen (a character that has nothing at all invested in their personal life with no personal connections whatsoever that can be used against them) then the release of their true identity doesn't really damage them at all. The only thing they might lose is the mystique that they are something more than just human - as long as they are faceless then they create the illusion that they are somehow exempt from being treated like a person. Arguably characters that try to have a real life while also serving as a hero can be accused of not committing enough, since they leave themselves this massive weakness that could ruin them at any time. Much as Batman is hardcore, he hasn't fully dedicated his life to vigilantism like the Punisher or Red hood - who don't really give a crap about whether or not their identity is hidden. Of course characters that are immune in this way have all handicapped themselves by completely isolating themselves from living a 'human' life, and they all seem poorer for it - and all the examples I just gave ended up closer to villains than heroes, probably as a result of being so isolated.

Can't think of any female characters that are so extreme, but I'm sure there's plenty.

One other point about wearing a mask is the psychological empowerment of assuming a new identity from your own. A hero or heroine feels they can do things when masked that they cannot achieve as 'themselves'. Taking away their mask can have a negative psychological impact on them as well. A masked, costumed, armed superheroine feels unassailable. If her identity is exposed - even if she is totally unknown - she feels vulnerable, the bubble of invincibility is punctured.

EvilDaria wrote:One other point about wearing a mask is the psychological empowerment of assuming a new identity from your own. A hero or heroine feels they can do things when masked that they cannot achieve as 'themselves'. Taking away their mask can have a negative psychological impact on them as well. A masked, costumed, armed superheroine feels unassailable. If her identity is exposed - even if she is totally unknown - she feels vulnerable, the bubble of invincibility is punctured.

Indeed. The superheroine and her secret identity are separate people, as far as the world is concerned. The manner of speech and movement is very different for each persona. So that's why I'm fascinated to see what happens when the mask is ripped away. Does Barbara continue to perform as Batgirl in the moments after the villain pulls away her mask? Or is she reduced to a librarian in a purple costume?

Tricky one …. for me, my 'secret identity' and my heroine 'character' are kind of an extension of the other. I don't really think of myself/selves as separate people. When I am here online and RP, I 'am' DangerDame, but she is so closely based on myself it's tricky to separate ….

Well it has to be assumed that realistically, having a secret identity outed will make superheroing difficult (since it's illegal and vigilantism) so on that front there's an argument that 'Barbara Gordon being outed as Batgirl is the 'end of Batgirl' But it doesn't really hold up in a logic factory. Stephenie Brown has been Batgirl, Cassandra Cain as been Batgirl. If Barbara was outed, she might simply hand the cowl to someone who hasn't been.

This is all assuming Barbara either A) Decides not to be Batgirl anymore over this, which is somewhat possible, and/or B) She decides to stop fighting crime over this, which is much MUCH less likely. The mindset of a person doing what superheroes do is as such that their sanity is somewhat compromised by an irrevocable desire to bring justice, honorably, at all costs, and simply having a mask torn off isn't going to make her cower in a dark corner in a basement for the rest of her life. That's just fantasy.

ViridianIV wrote: That's just fantasy.

Er...isn't the whole thing just fantasy?

Yes, tallyho, it is. For myself, part of that fantasy is actually pretending that my heroine and myself are one and the same … that she is just an extension of myself. But yes, all still fantasy.

The secret is also protecting the others in her life. Revealing that Barbara is Batgirl for example might lead people the think that Batman is um...someone close to her. The unveiling also puts her family, loved ones, and friends in peril.

It's a very strong peril for me. Especially since I basically go through a similar experience each time I use my pen name. If I were to use my real name in my fan fiction, it would be very difficult to truly just let myself go. Having that layer of anonymity is essential to me for the process. So I would assume that a heroine would go through a similar experience.

Definitely! Having the identity removed is devastating for a lot of reasons... just none of them preclude the option to continue being a hero. The damage is already done by that point, the villains threats toward her family members are now essentially a part of life, a danger that will always be there, superhero or not. There's just no real reason to imagine that a super heroine ceases to be such for the rest of her life once her mask is gone.

Hehe, like Dick Grayson after Forever Evil?

rayman wrote:For a real heroine like Batgirl for example how damaging is it really when her secret identity is revealed?

I mean surely if she knows it has been revealed BEFORE somebody finds her at work or wherever she can just go into hidng?

Or is losing your secrets the end of crime fighting or even worse ...Just mulling it over...

I guess the secret identity thing depends on the type of heroine. Youve identified Batgirl and for her type I guess having your real identity discovered is a complete career wrecker. Your friends and family are all at risk to revenge and worse, if the 'law' decides, you could be at the wrong end of the justice system too. The key here is that Ms Gordon becomes Batgirl , its NOT the other way around, Gordon is her default state.

Alternatively for a super-powered heroine its not such a big deal, the real "them" is their super hero persona, the civilian alter ego is their choice, they could go anywhere, do anything. Supergirl for example becomes Linda Danvers, it is her choice, she could easily become anyone else if she wanted or not even bother with it at all, she could merely rise to edge of space and levitate in blissful sleep between being heroic.

I had forgotten about htis thread - Great chat, I had not considered the knock effects concerning family and friends that is a HUGE deal, I get so caught up in the heroine nad action sh eis involve din I forget the bigger picture
Thanks everyone

ViridianIV wrote:Well it has to be assumed that realistically, having a secret identity outed will make superheroing difficult (since it's illegal and vigilantism) so on that front there's an argument that 'Barbara Gordon being outed as Batgirl is the 'end of Batgirl' But it doesn't really hold up in a logic factory. Stephenie Brown has been Batgirl, Cassandra Cain as been Batgirl. If Barbara was outed, she might simply hand the cowl to someone who hasn't been.

It would most probably be the end of that person's career as Batgirl. Bear in mind that Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown are virtually unknown beyond the comics audience. If you were to ask a sample of the public to name the secret identities of Batgirl, you would almost certainly find that Barbara Gordon is the only one likely to have widespread name recognition.

Even in comics, the whole "passing on the mantle" thing doesn't stick for long. Which is why Barbara is back in the New 52.

ViridianIV wrote:This is all assuming Barbara either A) Decides not to be Batgirl anymore over this, which is somewhat possible, and/or B) She decides to stop fighting crime over this, which is much MUCH less likely. The mindset of a person doing what superheroes do is as such that their sanity is somewhat compromised by an irrevocable desire to bring justice, honorably, at all costs, and simply having a mask torn off isn't going to make her cower in a dark corner in a basement for the rest of her life. That's just fantasy.

It's not really a matter of Barbara cowering in a dark corner, but rather that being unmasked would massively compromise every aspect of her life. She would essentially become a full-time crimefighter with little chance to hold down a job or form relationships outside the superhero community.

Also, Barbara could personally be held to account for Batgirl's actions. Aside from criminal charges for her vigilante activities, there would also be the massive risk of being sued for property damage and injuries. In a few cases where villains have died, the consequences could be extremely severe.

Plus there's the whole issue of her father having to resign as Police Commissioner.

I don't see that it even ends her Career as Batgirl though. Just because people know that Tony Stark is under the iron man mask doesn't make him not Iron Man. (Marvel Reference I know but still)

ViridianIV wrote:I don't see that it even ends her Career as Batgirl though. Just because people know that Tony Stark is under the iron man mask doesn't make him not Iron Man. (Marvel Reference I know but still)

Well, he's a billionaire. Also, Civil War covered some of the issues of a considerably poorer superhero such as Spider-Man having to deal with everyday life outside the bubble of Stark Tower Complex. In his case, being publicly known as Peter Parker resulted in Aunt May getting shot.

Heroine Addict wrote:

ViridianIV wrote:I don't see that it even ends her Career as Batgirl though. Just because people know that Tony Stark is under the iron man mask doesn't make him not Iron Man. (Marvel Reference I know but still)

Well, he's a billionaire. Also, Civil War covered some of the issues of a considerably poorer superhero such as Spider-Man having to deal with everyday life outside the bubble of Stark Tower Complex.

True enough, but lets face it. The Bat Family have a pretty rich uncle to fall back on if they're ever in serious trouble. I imagine 'the Batman' would help her find her footing post unmasking were she still prepared to be Batgirl. Of course she could always just put on a NEW mask and a new identity... I'm just not convinced that its 'necessary' Again, I feel like all the porn parodies that end with 'she can never fight crime again!' are pure fantasy of the extra fantastical.

It all depends on the "rules" of any particular series. The Batman Family, Green Arrow and Black Canary could be prosecuted in the criminal courts and/or sued into bankruptcy in the the civil courts. So revealing their identities publicly could easily be Game Over for them.

I guess they could retreat to the underground and continue to fight crime, but it would be a pretty desperate existence.


To be perfectly honest, though, the concept of secret identities has always required suspension of disbelief. Fingerprinting was around long before Diana Prince and Clark Kent started fighting crime with their bare hands. Photography was around long before Batman and other half-masked heroes started fighting crime with the lower half of their faces exposed. (And the less said about Robin's tiny domino mask, the better.)

With advances in detection such as DNA profiling, facial recognition software, voice recognition software and gait recognition software, the chances of the Batman Family not being identified are practically nil. So we just have to pretend that a mask is an adequate disguise in the DC universe.

Heroine Addict wrote:
With advances in detection such as DNA profiling, facial recognition software, voice recognition software and gait recognition software, the chances of the Batman Family not being identified are practically nil. So we just have to pretend that a mask is an adequate disguise in the DC universe.

Not to mention pretending that bulky unattractive eyewear, slouched posture, wigs and voice inflections completely fool people into thinking you are someone else entirely.

DrDominator9 wrote:

Heroine Addict wrote:
With advances in detection such as DNA profiling, facial recognition software, voice recognition software and gait recognition software, the chances of the Batman Family not being identified are practically nil. So we just have to pretend that a mask is an adequate disguise in the DC universe.

Not to mention pretending that bulky unattractive eyewear, slouched posture, wigs and voice inflections completely fool people into thinking you are someone else entirely.

Lol, that's true. That nobody knows Clark Kent is Superman because *gasp* he wears GLASSES!!! Is utterly crazy.

ViridianIV wrote:

DrDominator9 wrote:

Heroine Addict wrote:
With advances in detection such as DNA profiling, facial recognition software, voice recognition software and gait recognition software, the chances of the Batman Family not being identified are practically nil. So we just have to pretend that a mask is an adequate disguise in the DC universe.

Not to mention pretending that bulky unattractive eyewear, slouched posture, wigs and voice inflections completely fool people into thinking you are someone else entirely.

Lol, that's true. That nobody knows Clark Kent is Superman because *gasp* he wears GLASSES!!! Is utterly crazy.

Don't forget Wonder Woman. In some instances when Diana has removed her specs the only difference is 'hair up' = Diana Prince 'hair down' = Wondie.

Yet no one sees it. At the very least you'd think blokes would recognise such a spectacular pair of tits! lol!

And let's not forget one of my favorites: that Commissioner Gordon doesn't even recognize his own daughter! All that heavy reliance on Batman doing his thinking for him has obviously stunted his powers of observation.

DrDominator9 wrote:And let's not forget one of my favorites: that Commissioner Gordon doesn't even recognize his own daughter! All that heavy reliance on Batman doing his thinking for him has obviously stunted his powers of observation.

even better if he's looking at Batgirl sexually. Creepy but fun.

Yeah, I'm going to choose "Creepy" for $400, Alex. I just hope it's not an audio double jeopardy with heavy breathing between Babs and daddy!!

It is a bit strange that high-ranking police officers, government agents and investigative journalists can be so unobservant in the DC Universe.

I've always liked the whole "can't recognize the superhero dressed as a civilian in front of you because of some very minor esthetic detail" idea. It empowers the act of suiting up/transforming and makes it all the more interesting if some dubious character was to be poking around without the hero's knowledge during such an important moment.

Well I really can relate...now I have met some of you at conventions but I dont reveal my secret identity either or post pics of myself...so I can safely cosplay as batgirl, black cat and Baroness at all the cons without REALLY being a damsel in distress. I respect those friends that know my secret identity and do not post my pics...they are like my Alfreds lol

I do find it weird but kind of hot that Gordon doesnt know his daughter is batgirl..same here and I want to keep it that way....imagine the horror if Gordon found out

batgirl1969 wrote: I do find it weird but kind of hot that Gordon doesnt know his daughter is batgirl..same here and I want to keep it that way....imagine the horror if Gordon found out

I find it interesting that you think Gordon's reaction would be one of horror. Do you think that's because a) she's a vigilante and he's police commissioner b) his daughter is in constant risk of being killed c) she's so hot and he's had evil thoughts about her?

Inquiring minds want to know, batgirl1969....

DrDominator9 wrote:

batgirl1969 wrote: I do find it weird but kind of hot that Gordon doesnt know his daughter is batgirl..same here and I want to keep it that way....imagine the horror if Gordon found out

I find it interesting that you think Gordon's reaction would be one of horror. Do you think that's because a) she's a vigilante and he's police commissioner b) his daughter is in constant risk of being killed c) she's so hot and he's had evil thoughts about her?

Inquiring minds want to know, batgirl1969....

Ok...so in my case...Dad is not a police commissioner but a government military dude down in D.C. what he does I have no clue but i would suspect he would at first be horrified that he has been thinking wow...this chick is sexy and hot and that its sick for him to find out its his own flesh and blood...horrible...then when he found out he would be pissed and so horrified that his baby girl is out putting her self in dire peril and death defying action....
you know Gordon has had dirty thoughts about hot tight batgirl...what man wouldn't(or what woman also...teehee...me!!!)

DrDominator9 wrote:

Heroine Addict wrote:
With advances in detection such as DNA profiling, facial recognition software, voice recognition software and gait recognition software, the chances of the Batman Family not being identified are practically nil. So we just have to pretend that a mask is an adequate disguise in the DC universe.

Not to mention pretending that bulky unattractive eyewear, slouched posture, wigs and voice inflections completely fool people into thinking you are someone else entirely.

Human psychology would probably make those types of 'disguises' VERY effective. At least as long as the alter ego isn't too well known. The more fantastically powerful the hero(ine) is, the more effective it would be. The closer somebody is to the alter ego, the more difficult it would be to even conceive the possibility that they are in fact some sort of superhero(ine). Even if they looked EXACTLY alike...It would almost certainly be written off as a coincidence.

It's all a question of resources and determination. A regular villain isn't going to care at all who the Bat is, even when they are right there in front of them, all they will care about is how to get away. A bigger fish might be able to pull off all the fancy recognition methods but they too would be at risk of detection by virtue of being so 'big'.

I'd be the perfect clueless person in the DC world. I know a couple of women in the real world who look like completely different people when they go from the whole glasses on and hair up look, to hair down and no glasses. Demur and a bit mousey, to total knockouts. If it weren't for the context of where I was seeing them, I might not even recognize them.

Least with Wonder Woman they could change their hair color, wear colored contacts to mask who they are but for Superman that would be harder unless he had a full mustache and beard, hair color change and wearing colored contacts as Clark.

True in our world you would have people who would try and unmask them. Its like people trying unmask the Lone Ranger for no other reason to see what he looks like.