Opinion on HOW to write Fanfic for discussion

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Writing your Fanfic
A series by Lordgriffin
December 3, 2014
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Hello All:
Let me first apologize to those who have been following my Hunter of the Amazon (HOTA). We had an injury in the family when my 92-year-old grandmother fell and very badly injured her back. We are talking constant back spasms, together with a bad reaction to pain meds that had her talking suicide.

It is hard to write erotic and arousal when you are worried, and while I am hopeful I will pick up the next chapter soon, I am not yet ready. To fill the gap, some have asked me to write a series about writing. To be frank this has come from some people who are as frustrated as I am about how people write, not to say what anyone writes is BAD, but the market is flooded with certain themes, and well, some people think my stuff is…out of the ordinary, so I agreed to write. That said, I do not think I am anything special, and I honestly do not believe many will read (or care) what my opinions are…even still I will see if I can get some thoughts going, and, because I think interest is low, I will keep these little opinions, as much as I can, down to 1-3 paragraphs.


GETTING STARTED (Section 1 of 6)
(Part 1 of 8)


Ok, so you want to write, we will deal with writing for yourself or others in a later edition, I thought first to focus on the generics that I believe all writers should focus on, and the very first thing is DECIDE ON A PLOT. A plot is something that defines the purpose of being alive, the meaning of life if you will… the SECOND thing is SEX is a plot DEVICE not a plot!


Ok, this is the measuring stick I use. A plot can be anything you want, it can be taking over and ruling the Galaxy (Star Wars) it can be capturing outlaws and making the world a better place to live (Superman, Batman, etc.) it can be exploring different cultures in a star ship (Star Trek), it can be obtaining your own financial security (Brewster’s millions). As you can see these generic plots are vague and can depend on the point of view you choose to portray, for example, securing financial security could be through inheritance, hard work, or theft. Of course, sex can certainly be IN that plot, but it is not THE plot, it’s not the sole driving force of the story (and if it is it is going to get repetitive VERY fast). I like sex as much as the next writer, but I ask this question: If the bad guy achieves all his sexual lusts with the object of his lust, what would he do next? If that answer is, have more sex, then you do not have a plot.
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I think If I put this all in one thread, the different discussions would be "lost' so far i have generated zero discussion :/

Writing your Fanfic
A series by Lordgriffin
December 6, 2014

GETTING STARTED (Section 1 of 6)
(Part 2 of 8)

If your writing for yourself, why are you posting to a web site / BB ?

I have frequently contacted writers, to compliment them on their writing, and to make suggestions I think might help their plot, only to be met with “I don’t take requests I just write for myself.” Then in the same breath, that same writer comments, “I don’t know why nobody likes / reads my stuff.”

Ok, you should ALWAYS write for yourself, write what YOU like, what speaks to you. However, the very act of posting to a public site, means you would like to find others who appreciate YOUR work. So the next question is, do you prefer the popularity? Or is this just a “take it or leave it” attitude. If it’s take it or leave it, you cannot complain that people don’t read or comment negatively on your stories, however if you’re in it because you like having a fan base, you will, once again, need to consider how to write what THEY like in a way that YOU like (This will be covered in depth in Section 6). Just remember YOU have to enjoy the story, if you don’t, your readers will pick up on it like a heat seeking moisture missile.


Ok now that your writing for YOU, the next step is to decide whether you’re going to write for your fanboys (making you a “nitch” market writer)? Or, are you going to write for the “Silent Majority.” The simple fact of the matter is, most readers do NOT comment, which is unfortunate because we base our popularity of positive feedback. However, if you WATCH sites that have counters for the number of “views” of your story, you will see the more sophisticated, well thought out plots, have the number of views in the thousands, where as “Nitch” will have counts in the 10’s to 100’s. (This is a non-scientific study)

What is the difference between “Nitch” and “Silent Majority”? I am glad you asked. The Silent Majority story, deals with actual issues, has a plot and realistic characters that people relate to. For “Nitch” I like to pick on “Dickgirls,” as they are distasteful to me personally. A “Dickgirl” is an established female character, and rather then write in a male character, she magically has a BIG horking dick stuck on her front. For a “Nitch” writer THAT is their plot, some people just LIKE Dickgirls, put a dick on a girl and we don’t even CARE what else is in there, we will read it. There are many people out there like that (Dickgirls, Homosexual male, transformation, super heroine, bestiality, sadism, mind control, chloroform…etc.) if you HAVE that element they don’t CARE; you HAVE it they LIKE It! You won’t have as big a following, but you WILL have a fanbase.
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tallyho
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I think the reason you haven't provoked discussion is because you are making statements not really posing questions. And for the most part your comments are fairly comprehensive so there isn't much to be said.


I think its a good idea to have such a series but I would suggest a slightly different take on it and have the admins set up a 'hints and tips for stories' kind of sub section to the Stories part of the forum and then this and any other comments from other writers would then sit there (for all eternity, for all to learn from!) visible in a fixed spot for any new writer to see at the top of the Stories board.

I think there's one point though I would make with regards your first few paragraphs - you say-
'However, the very act of posting to a public site, means you would like to find others who appreciate YOUR work. So the next question is, do you prefer the popularity? Or is this just a “take it or leave it” attitude.'


Things aren't that clear cut. I know myself and many others here post stories for FEEDBACK, GOOD OR BAD. (not necessarily as you stated to be appreciated OR with a take it or leave it attitude). Yes its nice to be appreciated or find people who enjoy what you have done but if someone posts constructively about something I have done that DOESN'T work for them or that ISN'T convincing - that's the nugget of gold that I take as the 'payment' if you like for posting - because THAT is what I can take away and learn from. Which means the next story I write will be better for that contribution. As a British writer I am trying to mimic some elements of American culture and phraseology as the superheroes I write about are set in America - Supergirl, Wonder Woman, Batgirl. If I had one of my characters walk into a pub and order 3 pints and a packet of crisps, that's a European take on someone walking into a bar and ordering 3 beers and some chips. I don't even know if most bars over there sell chips (crisps!) but the point is I would happily WANT someone to point that out and likewise say to me 'a pub is more often a bar, people tend to order beers not pints, we call crisps 'chips' 'etc because all that helps contribute to making my next story more authentic in its setting. I have actively pm'd other American authors here to find out if they had the same word for something as we do on this side of the water for the same reason. (In that vein, you use 'nitch' in your post - is that a Yank pop culture spelling for 'niche' or just an error? [not taking the piss, a genuine question] This is just the kind of thing I can learn from if it is a pop culture thing or you can learn from if its a typo, lol, either way someone benefits which is precisely my point about why we post for feedback! ;) )


So whilst its always good to be told you are wonderful that's not necessarily why I post ( I already know I'm wonderful! ;) ) and I don't think I'm alone.
I would say that we write for ourselves but post for others AND ourselves, if that makes sense.
I would say a better distinction to the one you used would be that we post to a public site to be READ and (in my case anyway) to learn from the experience -preferably by story comments from readers but also sometimes you can learn from presentation and layout when you see it up for readers as opposed to on your own pc.

That's my take on things anyway - but that doesn't mean I'm right! ;)

I commend you on writing this series - I think its a great idea and you've obviously put a lot of effort and thought into its components and composition- and I look forward to dipping into it, and I'm sure there will be lots for new and old writers to take on board and learn from.
In that vein if you think this post breaks up the continuity of your articles let me know and I will happily delete it. :thumbup:
(I was going to PM you but as you said you wanted some discussion I thought I'd provide some!)
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I like T's idea for a potential sub forum with writing ideas from different contributors. Though... there is a certain hubris I'd be worried about to ever dare to act as an authority on how these things ought to be done - so I much prefer just weighing in as a humble opinion on how I personally feel it *could* be done, and what works for me.

I agree with the sentiment that you should only try to write something you enjoy or have some investment in - otherwise it's like homework or something, and you'll just dial it in. I do personally fly my flag in the 'I write for my own enjoyment' camp, though a healthy part of that enjoyment, as I'm sure all writers would agree, is in finding out that people enjoy your work. I wouldn't change what I do, or try to do, but it's a great feeling if ever I think something I've written has been enjoyed by others. For me I just wanted to contribute something to the table, and in so doing offer something that totally fits my tastes in a way that nothing before that ever had - with the hope that others might feel a bit like I do.

The niche versus majority thing is very relative. *ALL* of this genre is super niche (hehe, super... see what I did there? I'm still chortling...) and you point out yourself that it would be a category of niche. Main thing I'd offer to this is that anyone should just try and do as much justice as they can to an idea that they personally like. If it is a total *hit* for them as they read it back, then that is mission accomplished and job done. If you've done a story that you like well then chances are decent that others out there who share your interest will like it as well. If you want to maximise the number of people who might like it/give it a chance, then use pre-established characters that they already like and who they already have a comprehensive understanding of. Also helps to save on the legwork to build and introduce a character!

This could be a cool idea that you're doing, LG. It hangs up different talking points about stories for everyone to discuss. I wish it well.
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Void wrote:I like T's idea for a potential sub forum with writing ideas from different contributors. Though... there is a certain hubris I'd be worried about to ever dare to act as an authority on how these things ought to be done - so I much prefer just weighing in as a humble opinion on how I personally feel it *could* be done, and what works for me.

Absolutely - Its just there are some generic 'do's that I think should apply regardless of the subject matter and author's style that can be shown to new writers - such as spacing between scene changes or between character shifts. When I first started writing here my posts were all in one block - I had paragraphs but they just ran on one from the other.

I learned its much better to space them out and make it easier for the reader.(as I've done with this sentence) It helps for emphasis and making a point.

Likewise just basics like giving your story a proper title rather than 'My First Story..' I think some things are universal and then other advice is just that - advice that can be taken or left. I wouldn't dream of any pretence that the way I write is the perfect way to do it (it is of course but the last thing I'm gonna do is tell everybody my secrets ;) :whistle: :D :lol: )

Thats where I was going with a tips section and this piece by LG could well be the core of it.
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tallyho wrote:I think the reason you haven't provoked discussion is because you are making statements not really posing questions. And for the most part your comments are fairly comprehensive so there isn't much to be said.

I take your above statement as high compliment indeed. Thank you Tally. I had not thought myself that comprehensive.


I think its a good idea to have such a series but I would suggest a slightly different take on it and have the admins set up a 'hints and tips for stories' kind of sub section to the Stories part of the forum and then this and any other comments from other writers would then sit there (for all eternity, for all to learn from!) visible in a fixed spot for any new writer to see at the top of the Stories board.

I am genuinely amazed I have never done this, have the "Admins" set up a tips and hints section. Do you think it would attract readers and writers? How would I go about this, whom would I speak to?


Things aren't that clear cut. I know myself and many others here post stories for FEEDBACK, GOOD OR BAD. (not necessarily as you stated to be appreciated OR with a take it or leave it attitude).

I agree tally, it is not that cut and dry, but I phased it that way just so I might have some people comment on it, and your reply, for me, was very informative. Thank You

(In that vein, you use 'nitch' in your post - is that a Yank pop culture spelling for 'niche' or just an error? [not taking the piss, a genuine question] This is just the kind of thing I can learn from if it is a pop culture thing or you can learn from if its a typo, lol, either way someone benefits which is precisely my point about why we post for feedback! ;) )

That was a Typo on my part :blush:




I commend you on writing this series - I think its a great idea and you've obviously put a lot of effort and thought into its components and composition- and I look forward to dipping into it, and I'm sure there will be lots for new and old writers to take on board and learn from.
In that vein if you think this post breaks up the continuity of your articles let me know and I will happily delete it. :thumbup:
(I was going to PM you but as you said you wanted some discussion I thought I'd provide some!)


No please do not delete this, whenever I need to have my head swell a bit I wanna come back and look at it.
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Void wrote:I like T's idea for a potential sub forum with writing ideas from different contributors. Though... there is a certain hubris I'd be worried about to ever dare to act as an authority on how these things ought to be done - so I much prefer just weighing in as a humble opinion on how I personally feel it *could* be done, and what works for me.

Thanks Void, I want to look into doing what Tally has suggested. I have a good idea once a year...needed or not

I agree with the sentiment that you should only try to write something you enjoy or have some investment in - otherwise it's like homework or something, and you'll just dial it in. I do personally fly my flag in the 'I write for my own enjoyment' camp, though a healthy part of that enjoyment, as I'm sure all writers would agree, is in finding out that people enjoy your work. I wouldn't change what I do, or try to do, but it's a great feeling if ever I think something I've written has been enjoyed by others. For me I just wanted to contribute something to the table, and in so doing offer something that totally fits my tastes in a way that nothing before that ever had - with the hope that others might feel a bit like I do.

Yes Void, I hear what you say, a lot, and I am not sure how unique I am when I try to write something someone else likes, in a way that *I* like. Before I started writing, I never truly understood the whole concept of learning another person's "style' but when I started writing more, I discovered I was repeating the things *I* liked, over and over. In order to keep things interesting I began trying to find ways to like, what I do not like. An example (not seen here) is Homosexuality, I do NOT like Homosexuality, however I DO like Humiliation (go figure huh?) I discivered I coudl get into 2 Guys if ONE was using sexuality to show Dominance over the other.

The niche versus majority thing is very relative. *ALL* of this genre is super niche (hehe, super... see what I did there? I'm still chortling...) and you point out yourself that it would be a category of niche. Main thing I'd offer to this is that anyone should just try and do as much justice as they can to an idea that they personally like. If it is a total *hit* for them as they read it back, then that is mission accomplished and job done. If you've done a story that you like well then chances are decent that others out there who share your interest will like it as well. If you want to maximise the number of people who might like it/give it a chance, then use pre-established characters that they already like and who they already have a comprehensive understanding of. Also helps to save on the legwork to build and introduce a character!

I agree with you, but what I discovered is that certain Themes are being repeated almost exclusively. The Analogy I use is i LOVE Chocolate Ice cream, but if I were forced to eat ONLY Chocolate ice Cream, four meals a day for a year....you know? You may even write a really GOOD story but...man i SAW that already :)

This could be a cool idea that you're doing, LG. It hangs up different talking points about stories for everyone to discuss. I wish it well.


Thank you void!
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See the biggest question I've had to ask myself before writing something here is what to call the superheroines. I am rubbish with names.

Also just how much violence constitutes too much.

Other than that, umm, I figured I'd just take a run at it and see what folks think.
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Dogfish wrote:See the biggest question I've had to ask myself before writing something here is what to call the superheroines. I am rubbish with names.

Also just how much violence constitutes too much.

Other than that, umm, I figured I'd just take a run at it and see what folks think.

I actually write about the whole "Violence" thing in another posting. As for names, (I write about that too) If you have problems, reach out to others, My fans have GREAT imagination

As for the violence...My suggestions until I get to that part are...#1 I don't want to make love to a bloody bruised mess, and #2 does the violence do ANYTHING for the plot? if not why put it in?
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tallyho wrote: Absolutely - Its just there are some generic 'do's that I think should apply regardless of the subject matter and author's style that can be shown to new writers - such as spacing between scene changes or between character shifts. When I first started writing here my posts were all in one block - I had paragraphs but they just ran on one from the other.
Aha, yes, that's very true. I remember when I first posted a story on a forum, it was indeed just a block wall of text and it looked awful. Because I was only thinking about posting it, rather than reading it, I totally didn't realise how taxing it was for someone to try and read it. These are things well done in leaving people individual feedback, but I do like a nice catch-all place for little hints and tips. It just seems like a nice thing to contribute and to encourage others to contribute as well. All in all it sounds like a good idea.

@LG

See, I'm interested in this. I think you've implied before that there are things that have been done to death and totally saturated 'the market' to the point that they're really boring. I'm a little embarrassed, because I read and write quite a lot in this genre, but I'm honestly not sure what elements you are talking about... Is it stuff like 'chloroformed from behind,' 'hypnotised by a swinging pendant,' and 'kryptonite trap'; or is it more general things like 'wonder woman story,' 'super girl story,' and 'batgirl story'? There's stuff I suppose I see a lot of, but I can't truthfully think of anything that is done to death. In my opinion we do well here for variety between stories, both in terms of content and in terms of the tone of the stories. Haha, unless you mean 'super hero story'.... because I suppose everything posted here comes under that heading!
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See, I'm interested in this. I think you've implied before that there are things that have been done to death and totally saturated 'the market' to the point that they're really boring. I'm a little embarrassed, because I read and write quite a lot in this genre, but I'm honestly not sure what elements you are talking about... Is it stuff like 'chloroformed from behind,' 'hypnotised by a swinging pendant,' and 'kryptonite trap'; or is it more general things like 'wonder woman story,' 'super girl story,' and 'batgirl story'? There's stuff I suppose I see a lot of, but I can't truthfully think of anything that is done to death. In my opinion we do well here for variety between stories, both in terms of content and in terms of the tone of the stories. Haha, unless you mean 'super hero story'.... because I suppose everything posted here comes under that heading![/quote]


Hey Void:

Well in my "How to write" I devote an entire section to this subject. The Subject covers a great number of evils, some of which you touched on.

For example:

Done to DEATH

#1. Rape
a. Writer believes that rape MUST be accompanied to beating someone to a bloody pulp
b. Heroine gets raped, brushes her sleeves off , resets her mask and says "damn, I hate when that happens now back to business"
c. Anal sex as a form of birth control (Like a sadistic megalomaniac Villain cares if he knocks her up) and or pulling out.

#2. Sex (rape inclusive)
A. The whole "Oral first, then Anal then a BIG climax in the Vaginal scene (See *I* can make a funny too!)
B. Dialogue for example "I'm CUMMING" or "I'm TAMED"
C. "Ohhhh I hypnotized you! Now tell me your secrets...What? you have always WANTED to be my devoted love slave but were too emarassed to SAY it....well today's yer LUCKY day"

#3 The heroine ALWAYS manages to escape (usually because the antagonist was STUPID)

#4 Blunder Broad? GOT Gal? Ms AMERICANA! Really? THESE are NAMES? (nuff said)

#5 SELDOM any pregnancy (it's not like that's what sex was for)

#6 Yea you hit it, Kryptonite AGAIN? Really?

So yea, stuff like that
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I think some of that comes down to the seriousness of the tone of the story. Some stories are deliberately trashy and unrealistic so as to make it plainly fantasy and not too serious. I think that filter takes some of the sting out of it if some people don't want it to be too 'real', which I respect. In fact, I think almost all of that is a *tone* thing and it will vary depending on what the writer is trying to do... If someone wants a really realistic and believable story then I agree that is a big list of *don'ts* - but it might even be a list of *dos* if they don't want it to be realistic or serious.

You know my opinion on the escape thing. I do agree about not wanting things to happen because characters are stupid - I extend that to goodies and baddies - but, again, people may be making people stupid because that's the kind of happy-go-lucky story they are telling.

If you check out stories in this genre that are being actively *sold* for money on amazon and the like then I think it is mainly stuff that does all the things you just listed (which is probably why you're listing it as done to death). But consensus seems to be in favour of those kinds of tales, much as I personally tend to avoid them in favour of more serious narratives.

Anyways, I look forward to future sections.
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Void wrote:I think some of that comes down to the seriousness of the tone of the story. Some stories are deliberately trashy and unrealistic so as to make it plainly fantasy and not too serious. I think that filter takes some of the sting out of it if some people don't want it to be too 'real', which I respect. In fact, I think almost all of that is a *tone* thing and it will vary depending on what the writer is trying to do... If someone wants a really realistic and believable story then I agree that is a big list of *don'ts* - but it might even be a list of *dos* if they don't want it to be realistic or serious.

You know my opinion on the escape thing. I do agree about not wanting things to happen because characters are stupid - I extend that to goodies and baddies - but, again, people may be making people stupid because that's the kind of happy-go-lucky story they are telling.

If you check out stories in this genre that are being actively *sold* for money on amazon and the like then I think it is mainly stuff that does all the things you just listed (which is probably why you're listing it as done to death). But consensus seems to be in favour of those kinds of tales, much as I personally tend to avoid them in favour of more serious narratives.

Anyways, I look forward to future sections.

But you See, Void, that's part of "Done to death.

WHY do people make the antagonist, STUPID, or Sadistic, or ugly. And I think you hit it on the head. I think 90% of writers are FRIGHTENED. In our society, RAPE is such a bad word that it's be quite OK to show mutilation, sadism, and even Homosexuality, once seen as a pariah is now almost a MAINSTREAM...but show a successful rape..You PERVERT. Show a risk of pregnancy..WORSE..actually PUT a CHILD in her...you MONSTER! What to be even WORSE..show a 15 year old boy, interested in S. E. X. OMG! We all know in real life that woudl NEVER happen.

A saying

What forbids one to speak the truth laughingly?~Horace, Satires (35 BC)

It goes back as far as 35 BC that when you want to say something serious..something you LIKE but you fear what others say...you say it as a joke..not serious...so you can of course laugh it off.

I think that is EXACTLY what is happening in most stories. The author is OBVIOUSLY interested, HE (or SHE) came UP with the idea of defeating the Heroine for sex...but THEN after a BRILLIANT set up...we make out antagonist commit a obvious STUPID mistake and chuckle and say "oh come ON guys it's just a STORY"

As I state in one of my postings. An author woudl do well to realize that, WITHOUT Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker was just a plow boy on a speeder, AND Just because George Lucas conceived of Darth Vader, does NOT mean that George Lucas wants to be an evil Sith lord who wants to rule the galaxy.
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I believe you are way overthinking here :laugh:. I imagine most people write precisely about what they like. For example, I've seen "pregnancy stories" in other places, but I guess they just didn't make it out here yet (or maybe they are posted and I haven't noticed them).

As for the writing itself, I think there are already tons of guides out there about improving your technique, for the people that are interested. Obviously you need some guidelines when starting out, but ultimately it is practice and hard work that make the difference.
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Ezekiel wrote:I believe you are way overthinking here :laugh:. I imagine most people write precisely about what they like. For example, I've seen "pregnancy stories" in other places, but I guess they just didn't make it out here yet (or maybe they are posted and I haven't noticed them).

As for the writing itself, I think there are already tons of guides out there about improving your technique, for the people that are interested. Obviously you need some guidelines when starting out, but ultimately it is practice and hard work that make the difference.
Hey Ezekiel:

You may be wright about over thinking, All I know is the frustration I feel with the current stories, and this has actually been the most...active thread I have ever had.

I agree that people will write what they want, but I do hope that I might reach SOME people to realize..hey there is more out there
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Ezekiel wrote: As for the writing itself, I think there are already tons of guides out there about improving your technique, for the people that are interested. Obviously you need some guidelines when starting out, but ultimately it is practice and hard work that make the difference.
I'm curious. Did you actually look for guides on the web? I didn't, I just thought 'what the hell, I'll give it a go'. Thought never occurred to me that I might be crap :D and there was simple advice that could make me better and make it easier on the readership. Plus of course if its here(an advice section) it can be tailored to our particular niche.(or nitch! ;) )

The very fact that there are at least 3 stories posted here I've seen in the last year that are 'My First STORY' or something similar and the authors haven't even given their work a title in the thread is, I think, proof that something like what LG is putting together is going to be of some value to people.

Practice helps but if advice can negate the need for trial and error then that's a better way to go, surely? Learning without the pain.
Plus if you are posting and being ignored you may not retain your readership long enough for people to see you learn from your mistakes and get better.

There is no one right way to write, we all have different styles and ideas, but for a new reader to see several different ways of tackling something all in one spot will I think help them to find their own path and choose what suits them , or indeed come up with something new completely and possibly better.

At the end of the day I don't think it will do any harm and if it raises the standards of even one would be writer, all well and good as we will all benefit.
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Of course I never read a guide before trying out my hand first-time, and that is precisely why it was a complete disaster :laugh:. I did read after that though, asked people that had a clue about writing about this and that and worked my butt off. I don't agree with the learning without pain part. It never worked for me, ever, in any circumstance. No pain, no gain. I believe it's a rule as universal as the laws of physics.

Also, just to throw this out, there's already a pretty good guide for our "niche", over on the wizard's lair. I'd say it hits the spot until the spot drops dead.
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Ezekiel wrote:. I don't agree with the learning without pain part. It never worked for me, ever, in any circumstance.No pain, no gain. I believe it's a rule as universal as the laws of physics.
Yes but the pain in this context is the sacrifice of your time to read the tips in the first place as opposed to experiencing the very real pain of spending hours writing something that nobody reads (with the accompanying feelings of wretchedness and despair that humanity has failed to realise that the greatest piece of prose ever known to man has been set before them, but they aren't interested ;) because it's crap. )

That's what I meant - you invest the time you could be writing in reading instead and that's frustrating as you are champing at the bit to crack on, but it's nothing to the pain and frustration and humiliation of just being ignored after all your hard work. So yes no pain no gain I agree but I know which 'pain' I would rather have the pain of learning without the pain of trial and error.

Learning itself can be painful especially if all the 'don'ts' people list are all the 'do's'that you always repeat. If you read a book you gain knowledge but the only 'pain' as such is the loss of time that you could have spent doing something else
:yes:

And if the Wizards Lair has good tips then we can repeat them here, as again how many newbies know about it? Better they can see it twice than never.
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tallyho wrote:
Ezekiel wrote:. I don't agree with the learning without pain part. It never worked for me, ever, in any circumstance.No pain, no gain. I believe it's a rule as universal as the laws of physics.
Yes but the pain in this context is the sacrifice of your time to read the tips in the first place as opposed to experiencing the very real pain of spending hours writing something that nobody readsas been set before them, but they aren't interested ;) because it's crap. )

r.

I dunno Tally, sometimes the pain is in READING the story ;)
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Section 1 Part 3
Serious vs Campy
Everyone KNOWS what you mean.

Ok, Now you have decided to write for yourself (in which case you likely just want to write what you write) or to really get into something people like. In my opinion, you should next decide whether you want something SERIOUS (I take that to mean Plausible, the ability to suspend disbelief) Or something CAMPY.

Serious is by far the easier (for me) to write about here. Serious does not mean mundane, a well-known concept is that of “Suspension of disbelief”. I had this concept explained to me in 1983 by the writing legend “Andre Norton” who said, it’s YOUR story, you can make any rules you want however once you MAKE a rule…YOU have to live by them or give your reader a DAMN good reason why you broke the rule. “ SO…you can have a Heroine who is made weak by Kryptonite, but once you DO that, you cannot just SUDDENLY have her immune to the effects without justifying WHY.

I will pause here to add a thought about “deux ex machine.” This literally means “god from the machine” and in Greek times a guy would be lowered down from the ceiling to EXPLAIN to the audience, why something happened. It is better to let your reader understand, rather than treat them like they are incapable and have to explain to them, so you would ALSO be wise to incorporate the “K.I.S.S.” principal in your plots (Keep It Simple Stupid) the more complicated your plot the harder it is to remember all your rules.

NOW we get to one of MY “pet Peeves.” Campy is defined as being so extreme that it has an amusing and perversely sophisticated appeal. And William Shakespeare said “Many a truth is said in jest.” If you want to write a comedy, write a comedy, however it seems to me a HUGE number of stories, have adopted the old 1960’s “Batman” Campy. If you’re writing drama or passion, Campy is WAY over done, and in my opinion NOT fun, but I think it’s done because people are AFRAID everyone will think them a pervert that wants to SEE what they write actually HAPPEN in real life.

In other words…the villain approaches a helpless heroine strips her naked, ties her up, and then puts on a clown nose, huge shoes and TICKLES HER…. As if to say “what you guys thought I wanted to rape her? Come ON it was a JOKE.” Well we ALL know what you were thinking, and for cripes sake, it’s OK. #1 people write gristly mutilation, torture and murder scenes ALL the time, are you telling me THAT is ok, but RAPE, or using the “N” word is so ghastly and socially unacceptable that you run in fear? The action is from your CHARACTER, not YOU, SO…I am pretty sure that JUST because George Lucas does NOT want to be an evil Sith lord and rule the Galaxy, and that the writers of “Game of Thrones” do not want to be an evil young king, JUST because they thought up a realistic villain. Of COURSE, we have an arousal at the prospect of having a “no strings attached” relationship that is why it’s called a FANTASY. Go ahead BE honest and let the dark side out a bit. Campy is NOT fun in passion, if you do not believe it, think of the most intense pleasant REAL life sexual relationship you have ever had, and then picture waiting to be with that person for weeks, that partner entering in clown face, a red nose, floppy shoes (Stark naked) tickling you and then LEAVING without giving you any release.
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Writing your Fanfic
A series by Lordgriffin
December 3, 2014
FORWARD

Hello All:
Let me first apologize to those who have been following my Hunter of the Amazon (HOTA). We had an injury in the family when my 92-year-old grandmother fell and very badly injured her back. We are talking constant back spasms, together with a bad reaction to pain meds that had her talking suicide.

It is hard to write erotic and arousal when you are worried, and while I am hopeful I will pick up the next chapter soon, I am not yet ready. To fill the gap, some have asked me to write a series about writing. To be frank this has come from some people who are as frustrated as I am about how people write, not to say what anyone writes is BAD, but the market is flooded with certain themes, and well, some people think my stuff is…out of the ordinary, so I agreed to write. That said, I do not think I am anything special, and I honestly do not believe many will read (or care) what my opinions are…even still I will see if I can get some thoughts going, and, because I think interest is low, I will keep these little opinions, as much as I can, down to 1-3 paragraphs.


GETTING STARTED (Section 1 of 6)
(Part 1 of 8)


Ok, so you want to write, we will deal with writing for yourself or others in a later edition, I thought first to focus on the generics that I believe all writers should focus on, and the very first thing is DECIDE ON A PLOT. A plot is something that defines the purpose of being alive, the meaning of life if you will… the SECOND thing is SEX is a plot DEVICE not a plot!


Ok, this is the measuring stick I use. A plot can be anything you want, it can be taking over and ruling the Galaxy (Star Wars) it can be capturing outlaws and making the world a better place to live (Superman, Batman, etc.) it can be exploring different cultures in a star ship (Star Trek), it can be obtaining your own financial security (Brewster’s millions). As you can see these generic plots are vague and can depend on the point of view you choose to portray, for example, securing financial security could be through inheritance, hard work, or theft. Of course, sex can certainly be IN that plot, but it is not THE plot, it’s not the sole driving force of the story (and if it is it is going to get repetitive VERY fast). I like sex as much as the next writer, but I ask this question: If the bad guy achieves all his sexual lusts with the object of his lust, what would he do next? If that answer is, have more sex, then you do not have a plot.
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There's a lot in this to try and unpack, I think. I'm sure plenty of people would say the sexual element is in the back seat, if it's in the car at all, and the onus is more on danger peril or comedy, or whatever. It goes back to what the writer is trying to achieve - many won't be trying to achieve anything like a night of passion. Ages ago I remember Omega Woman making a good point about serious-toned stories running the risk of taking a fantasy and painting it as a grim reality (I'm sorry if my paraphrasing butchers your words, OW). This wouldn't be an issue with the writer so much as readers not wanting to experience their fantasy depicted in an overtly realistic tone, complete with the heroine being traumatised by the results of her abuse. Not all 'serious' stories will go that far, obviously, but then a big element of 'serious' is to make it as believable as possible. In a way we all regulate back on that switch at least a little bit, precisely to avoid crafting overly grim stories.

But then, you said it yourself that this applies to narrative dissonance if people are trying to write 'drama' or 'passion' but then throw out plot moves or details that are from a totally different genre. I'm not convinced any story at all that is campy was ever written with the intention of being a drama or being in some way passionate, but that's just my take on it.

It's also worth remembering that a lot of this genre stems from old comics and cartoons... Which were all campy to one extent or another - rather than being mega-serious. But in the end, it comes down to what people are trying to create. I like to think of it as a Christopher Nolan interpretation (serious) versus a more classical and naïve interpretation drawing on old nostalgia (campy). I'm a sucker for serious, darker, more Nolanish stories - but I still enjoy the more care-free and 'fun' stories. I don't think I'd have noticed this genre on the whole were it not for the campy, exuberant stories over at Mr X's site.

*I also think there's shades of grey between these camps.
Last edited by Void 9 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Void wrote:There's a lot in this to try and unpack, I think.

Thanks for your Reply, Void, and your right those few paragraphs have a lot to unpack. However it bears saying (I had not realized how I might sound) that when I say "serious" I do not mean portraying rape as a reality (unless your appealing to a crowd that likes dark tragic) Rather when i say Serious, I mean having an actual plot.....

There is no doubt that the reality of rape is, it is a horrid abomination, however the fantasy most males have, is to take pleasure without need of permission or concern, while I am told many women fantasize about rape, not to be harmed, but to give into pleasure, without the social stigma of being "Loose morals"

So the Serious is more not just writing empty sex or campy.
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Ahh, I see, I see. I would say that 'campy' stories do have plots - they aren't just a series of unrelated events. I think if we're going to talk about something like campy versus serious, we may need to really bolt down what those things mean to us.

To me campy is when the story is written in a way that is clearly unreal and very clearly an overly dramatized event. Plausibility is deliberately thrown away. Characters saying things that people never ever say like 'And now, my evil plan to rule the world will come to fruition! Nyahahahaha!' or 'Not so fast, Dr Generic Villain, I will put an end to your sinister ploy!' and so on. Another good example of those campy declarations is when a character says something to convey what is going on, sounding more like the narrator than the character - with examples like 'Oh no! You have defeated me!' or 'If it keeps going this way, I'll be tamed!'

Plots aren't entirely coherent, characters are rather simple, two-dimensional people, often defined by a single trait like 'evil,' 'smart,' 'sexy,' 'paragon of virtue,' and so on. Events in the story that set up the encounters take very much a back seat and often don't try to make much sense. When bad things happen to the characters they tend to react to them in a way that shrugs it off or minimalizes it, if they even acknowledge it at all. Outfits are often dissonant with the characters wearing them, with no coherent reason they would fight crime in a bikini or try to conquer the world in a bright orange cape, and lack of depth in personality for the characters mean they often interrelate in a very stilted, robotic way. And, of course, there's lots of names for people, places, schemes, devices, and particularly heroines and villains which defy belief, being largely unbelievable that they would be selected as names. The result of this cartoonish world is that stories are very easy going and care free, able to explore whatever perils or events without them hitting too hard or tasking the reader to think too much about it. I think back to the cartoons and tv series I used to watch, and they were all done like this - and I loved them for it. Even modern day DC comics are probably closer to this side of the scale than the serious one... though that's probably debateable.

I'm nervous that I'm describing it like it's a bad thing and I don't like it. My point about it is that it's written a little tongue in cheek and that it deliberately avoids being too serious - opting instead to go more colourful and fantastical. There's lots of reasons, specially in *this* genre why that is the better way to go.

For me, serious stories are, as you might expect, sort of the polar opposite to what I just described as campy. A lot of legwork is done to try to keep it plausible. Everything tries to be coherent and consistent within the story. Character's have more depth to them and interrelate a bit more like real people do, and say things that a real person might say - even if it is still often more dramatic (Nolan's characters were all very dramatic and larger than life... but they did so, I think, in a more fleshed out and real way.). Characters still wear pretty outlandish outfits, but there's a more concerted effort to explain that and make it coherent with the character, and likewise with names. Everything is less fanciful and is grounded more in mucky reality, making it less care free or colourful but also making it more believable. There has been a trend (and I admit I've been suckered into it myself) that stories like this need to be super dark and grim in their tone, with really shady villains and even shady heroes. I don't think serious stories need that at all, though I myself go in for stories with darker narratives. There's more plot to trudge through to get to the meat of the story, because serious stories try harder to make the story coherent and believable to get there, and this can often be off-putting to the reader if all they wanted was to see a hero-villain battle. The peril hits harder, perhaps uncomfortably so, because the characters are more human, reacting more like a person than an object.

So that's how I roughly define the two poles, though I don't think it is black and white between them - there's certainly a scale between them, and possibly not even a linear one at that. I might even wager that most stories couldn't be classified as one or the other here. There's pros and cons either way, so again I think it comes down to what people want.

You mentioned male fantasies in these stories - for me personally I like the power play between villains and heroes. There is something exciting about the taboo of the hero failing and suffering the risks of perils the likes of which they save people from. I also just like the back and forth of the goodies and baddies having the upper hand over each other, and what the consequences of that are. In terms of the sexual stuff, I personally dislike the idea of *taking* pleasure - by that I mean stories where the villain sodomises the heroine for his own satisfaction while the heroine is clearly just suffering from it, does nothing at all for me. I more like the idea of *giving* pleasure, even though the heroine does not desire it, until she can't help but give in to it and even surrender herself to it. It's one of the ultimate demonstrations of power and helplessness if a heroine is captured by her nemesis and then pleasured against her will by him or her, until her pleasure gets the better of her and she starts giving in to it. So my focus is always on the heroine, and it is always on the idea of her physically enjoying it - so whatever is being done to her is often tender and sensual rather than brutal or savage. My focus within this fantasy is more on the idea of what the woman/victim is experiencing, rather than what her captors are experiencing.

Sorry to hijack your thread LG, I just wanted to throw out my understanding of the concepts of serious and campy. Defining them as not being each other just isn't enough! People may opt for campy so as to avoid the peril content being too *serious* but I don't think that is to do with fear of how they will be perceived - I just think, as I've said, that doing so puts the content very much on the fantasy side of the line where it is a little safer and more comfortable to experience. I actually like the impact of it, if it is done well, which is one of the main reasons they I've drifted from campy stories into more serious ones over the years.
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Void wrote:Sorry to hijack your thread LG, I just wanted to throw out my understanding of the concepts of serious and campy. Defining them as not being each other just isn't enough! People may opt for campy so as to avoid the peril content being too *serious* but I don't think that is to do with fear of how they will be perceived - I just think, as I've said, that doing so puts the content very much on the fantasy side of the line where it is a little safer and more comfortable to experience. I actually like the impact of it, if it is done well, which is one of the main reasons they I've drifted from campy stories into more serious ones over the years.

LOL! Wow Void…..what a reply, starting from the end working back, you have not “Hijacked” my thread. You may be stealing a bit of my thunder because I agree with virtually EVERYTHING you have said…I have just broken it up into other sections to address later 

#1 YES, Campy stories DO have plots…in fact you can argue campy IS a plot, it’s just one we seem to agree is done a LOT, and doesn’t see, to work well if you try and mix Campy with something that has previously been more “Dark” to use your terms.

#2. I agree with your description of Campy, I HATE when they do that “OMG I am TAMED”

#3. I agree with what you say about When bad things happen people tend to “shrug it off” (Covered in a later posting by me) and why would anyone fight crime in a Bikini? But to me that SPEAKS to “suspension of disbelief” if you TELL me that a crime fighter, like Batgirl, puts on a “cat suit” and wears a “Utility belt” that caries around its own battleship…. I will accept that. After all PART of the fantasy IS the freedom (for the reader) to experience sexy or arousing things without consequence. My problem comes in when you have done the above, and then CRASH it with something “Campy” like having the Mensa woman crying out “Oh good lord I have been tamed!” I do not think you make it sound like a BAD thing, but much like the current debate about making a “PG Landing page” I get annoyed and tend to THINK (to myself) if you wanted to write campy…let *ME* know early so I can hit the delete key and move on to things *I* like. And I STILL maintain that a lot of people REVERT to campy because they are afraid of the stereotype or embarrassment if people find out…they seriously LIKE some of these taboo subjects.

#4 I could not agree with you MORE about the “Serious” stories, ESPECIALLY your point about making the antagonist SO reprehensible and dark it can get to stomach turning. I actually will address THIS in another post as well. It is what I call the “Bash your reader in the head. Force him to HATE this character because HE is the villain and I am not going to LET you like him so I will have him KICK every lost puppy he sees.”

No person is 100# Bad (well maybe Sociopaths but they are the EXCEPTION not the rule) and few are 100% GOOD. When you think of main stream fiction your BEST characters are those that have character flaws, good AND bad. The Villain that may TWIST an agreement but out of honor will live to the LETTER. The Hero that is not above, noticing a woman sunbathing naked on a rooftop as he flies by….

#5 Your point about “Sodomizing the heroine for personal pleasure and she gets nothing from it. I agree in GENERAL…I prefer to force pleasure on her (which when you look at it in REAL life, causes a whole HOST of Psychological problems for the victim…questioning herself…why did…why did I HAVE that powerful orgasm...have I betrayed myself? Others?”) But I would argue that including the BRUTAL aspect in the story is situational. If you have written a sophisticated antagonist…he will get pleasure in forcing pleasure on the heroine…but Sadistic selfish people EXIST in the world, and you cannot ignore them in your fantasy world just because you personally dislike them. You can however USE them as a plot devise. Lets face it, the BAD guys ALWAYS winning, is as bad as the GOOD guy ALWAYS winning. The sadist is the kind I write about because THAT is the guy I want to see get his ASS kicked when she escapes or is rescued. In the mean time I can appeal to another fan base as I include this aspect OCCASIONALLY in my stories. (I write a whole piece about writing OTHER people’s fetishes in a way that *I* like)
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Hehe, I'm sure there will be plenty of thunder in your coming sections, LG.

I look forward to discussing your 4th point there, but I will wait to maybe reply to that after you have posted your proper write up about it. I think you can *like* a baddie and think they are a bad person - just as you can do the reverse. I agree that all characters have flaws, and that 'villains' can still have redeeming qualities - though I wonder if there's limits to that.

Just want to bring you up on that last point, though. Lots of people exist in the real world - you can't include them all in your story, whatever your feelings are about them. Their existence in reality doesn't immediately qualify their inclusion, but the tastes of the writer seem like pretty good criteria for qualifying elements to be included in their story. I do take your point that it would be a weird story if it only included things that the writer liked, though - it would have no antagonists!
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Void wrote:Hehe, I'm sure there will be plenty of thunder in your coming sections, LG.

I look forward to discussing your 4th point there, but I will wait to maybe reply to that after you have posted your proper write up about it. I think you can *like* a baddie and think they are a bad person - just as you can do the reverse. I agree that all characters have flaws, and that 'villains' can still have redeeming qualities - though I wonder if there's limits to that.

Just want to bring you up on that last point, though. Lots of people exist in the real world - you can't include them all in your story, whatever your feelings are about them. Their existence in reality doesn't immediately qualify their inclusion, but the tastes of the writer seem like pretty good criteria for qualifying elements to be included in their story. I do take your point that it would be a weird story if it only included things that the writer liked, though - it would have no antagonists!
Hey Void:

We may want to discuss the 4th point sooner, as MY Discussion on THAT point won't come for a while...

And yes you got what I meant, that you can include characters you do not like, though I would argue *I* like the antagonists! :)
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Section 1 Part 3
Serious vs Campy
Everyone KNOWS what you mean.

Ok, Now you have decided to write for yourself (in which case you likely just want to write what you write) or to really get into something people like. In my opinion, you should next decide whether you want something SERIOUS (I take that to mean Plausible, the ability to suspend disbelief) Or something CAMPY.

Serious is by far the easier (for me) to write about here. Serious does not mean mundane, a well-known concept is that of “Suspension of disbelief”. I had this concept explained to me in 1983 by the writing legend “Andre Norton” who said, it’s YOUR story, you can make any rules you want however once you MAKE a rule…YOU have to live by them or give your reader a DAMN good reason why you broke the rule. “ SO…you can have a Heroine who is made weak by Kryptonite, but once you DO that, you cannot just SUDDENLY have her immune to the effects without justifying WHY.

I will pause here to add a thought about “deux ex machine.” This literally means “god from the machine” and in Greek times a guy would be lowered down from the ceiling to EXPLAIN to the audience, why something happened. It is better to let your reader understand, rather than treat them like they are incapable and have to explain to them, so you would ALSO be wise to incorporate the “K.I.S.S.” principal in your plots (Keep It Simple Stupid) the more complicated your plot the harder it is to remember all your rules.

NOW we get to one of MY “pet Peeves.” Campy is defined as being so extreme that it has an amusing and perversely sophisticated appeal. And William Shakespeare said “Many a truth is said in jest.” If you want to write a comedy, write a comedy, however it seems to me a HUGE number of stories, have adopted the old 1960’s “Batman” Campy. If you’re writing drama or passion, Campy is WAY over done, and in my opinion NOT fun, but I think it’s done because people are AFRAID everyone will think them a pervert that wants to SEE what they write actually HAPPEN in real life.

In other words…the villain approaches a helpless heroine strips her naked, ties her up, and then puts on a clown nose, huge shoes and TICKLES HER…. As if to say “what you guys thought I wanted to rape her? Come ON it was a JOKE.” Well we ALL know what you were thinking, and for cripes sake, it’s OK. #1 people write gristly mutilation, torture and murder scenes ALL the time, are you telling me THAT is ok, but RAPE, or using the “N” word is so ghastly and socially unacceptable that you run in fear? The action is from your CHARACTER, not YOU, SO…I am pretty sure that JUST because George Lucas does NOT want to be an evil Sith lord and rule the Galaxy, and that the writers of “Game of Thrones” do not want to be an evil young king, JUST because they thought up a realistic villain. Of COURSE, we have an arousal at the prospect of having a “no strings attached” relationship that is why it’s called a FANTASY. Go ahead BE honest and let the dark side out a bit. Campy is NOT fun in passion, if you do not believe it, think of the most intense pleasant REAL life sexual relationship you have ever had, and then picture waiting to be with that person for weeks, that partner entering in clown face, a red nose, floppy shoes (Stark naked) tickling you and then LEAVING without giving you any release.
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Figure out the end, before the beginning
SECTION: 1 Part 4

Ok, you have hopefully now decided that there is an ultimate goal to your story besides sex, and you have decided whether this is going to be a joke, or something actually serious. The next step IMHO (In My Humble Opinion) is to decide how your story will end. Yes that’s right, You see there are many paths to the end, and may detours you can take, FUN detours, things you didn’t think of when you started and knowing your ending, gives a place on the map that you and your characters will go to one day.

I have been told that every story EVER written has one of 6 endings, with #6 almost NEVER written in mainstream writing (shameless plug)

1. Protagonist (the hero) wins, the Antagonist (Villain) loses- Done ADNAUSIUM (till I am sick) this is the classic Main stream Superman, Batman, The Lion King, My little pony. It is by far the most written (and arguably most popular) out there

2. The Protagonist loses, but in doing so defeats the antagonist, these are the classic tragedies. (and by the way MUCH loved by the Japanese, in fact they love it SO much they will resurrect the hero 20 times JUST so he can die again saving everyone) These are stories like the ORIGINAL “Hunchback of Notre Dame” Ol yeller or Star Trek, wrath of Khan.

3. The antagonist WINS, but it turns out he was ACTUALLY the PROTAGONIST the whole time. These are stories like “The Punisher” or Treasure Island (Long John Silver) or Ender’s Game.

4. The Antagonist wins, but by virtue of the protagonist returns to the side of right and good (Reverse corruption) these are stories like Titan A.E., Revenge of the Jedi, or “Loki” from Thor when the world is about to be destroyed.

5. The antagonist wins; protagonist loses but in doing so the antagonist ceases to find joy in what he wanted and again decides to turn to the side of the light: such as the Dragon lance books when Rastlin Becomes a God, The movie “Megamind” or Beauty and the beast.

6. The Antagonist triumphs and goes on to live a happy joy filled life

I have NEVER seen #6 done in main stream literature, to find an antagonist who reaches his goals and goes on with an epilogue, or heaven forbid new adventures with his former foes defeated or now minor secondary characters. Section 4 will deal with how we view our antagonist, but I will mention MOST authors make the antagonist so sadistically abhorrent most do not WANT to see #6 happen. But if you make the Antagonist realistic and control the fantasy it can be a very powerful arousing ending. In any case KNOWING how this will end, will guide you to your writing.
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#6- Hannibal Lecter escapes at the end of "Silence of the Lambs"

I would say it is a good idea to know where your going in a story. But if you are writing something with characters (rather than punching bags with vaginas) you have to let characters go where they want. When I was writing my book, I was surprised that one of the characters did a flip and although it didn't really change the arc of the story, it made the story much more interesting.
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Uhh... if this is a Fanfic Writing Advice post, why are you talking about endings in mainstream works? Last I checked, erotic superheroine fanfiction (small but competitive niche!) had "antagonist wins, leads a long and happy life" endings out the wazoo.
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I agree you need a rough destination, but I also agree that characters will surprise you and take the story places you may not have expected. It depends if you want characters to drive the story or not, I guess.

I don't know if I agree about the 6 endings thing... Those are extremely broad generalised and categorised endings for what can become of the protagonists and the antagonists, but even so it doesn't sum up the ending for the whole story - because the story is not just defined by the general outcome for the 'goodies' and 'baddies. Hell, even the terms protagonists and antagonists can be unhelpful in trying to broadly classify characters like that, and often characters can't fall into those lines. There's a lot of stories with half victories or losses with the goodies or baddies, and where the goodies are baddies are often on a scale of grey in terms of whether they are antagonists or protagonists. Then there's stories that don't really have resolution, or go back to a status quo.

But if we just focus on broad outcomes for the goodies and baddies, then I think those 6 more or less sum them up... though there is likely more. 2, 3, 4, and 5 all have reverse options on them where you invert the uses of protagonist and antagonist. I can think of a number of cop dramas where the badguy loses but defeats the good guy in doing so. The watchmen ending is likely the reverse of number 3. There's definitely stories where the good guy becomes the bad guy by the end of the story - they're quite popular, I think. 5 is kind of nuanced version of 4.

I agree with sneakly about there actually being a few examples of 6 out there - certainly far more than you're implying there are. Just think of all the movies that come out over Halloween. Plenty of horrors or thrillers where the antagonist has an ultimate victory and then carries on with their lives. I see that more in films than I do in books... but they're still out there. That's doubly true in the heroine peril genre - many of the short stories in this genre end with the bad guy adding the heroine to his harem or whatever, and that's that.

It's also maybe a tad harsh to call campy stories 'jokes,' I don't think they are intended as jokes, even if they are written to avoid being serious.

When you bring up that writers often want their reader to hate their antagonists, do you mean actively disliking the character or disliking the character as a person, or both? I mean, I loved the Joker in the dark knight, but I thought he was an objectively bad guy - and that happens a lot with villains. The villains I dislike are the ones who are just rubbish, clichéd or uninteresting characters. It's true that often antagonists are portrayed as evil people - but then they're the villains... they kind of need to earn their stripes to be qualified as villains. If they are the kind of person who makes the active choice to commit murder or rape for their own amusement, I think there's a limit to what you can do with them to make the reader relate with them or sympathise with them. They can be cool and charming, or funny and interesting; but I don't know if they could ever be anything like a 'good' person. I would argue that isn't the writer trying to make the reader feel anything, or trying to distance themselves from the character, I just think that is part of making a consistent character who makes those choices... so I suspect I'll be a pest when you do the proper write up in section 4!
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sneakly wrote:#6- Hannibal Lecter escapes at the end of "Silence of the Lambs"

I would say it is a good idea to know where your going in a story. But if you are writing something with characters (rather than punching bags with vaginas) you have to let characters go where they want. When I was writing my book, I was surprised that one of the characters did a flip and although it didn't really change the arc of the story, it made the story much more interesting.
Hey Sneaky:

I can not deny Hannibal Lector escapes at the end, but I am not real sure that's a pure win as the whole focus of the story was on the guy in custody. Lector was a supporting character...but still yes...

As to what you speak to...in my opinion, the whole PURPOSE of deciding on your ending, is exactly SO you can let your characters go where they want. It seems to me in doing that, knowing your desire to get to a pre defined ending, you then create inspiration for how other characters will react to an unexpected turn of events...to sort of do "Damage control" now it is also completely true that you, the writer, may decide to CHANGE the ending, based on inspiration....but then the story becomes a new story, proceeding from the point at which you changed yer mind.
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Omega Woman wrote:Uhh... if this is a Fanfic Writing Advice post, why are you talking about endings in mainstream works? Last I checked, erotic superheroine fanfiction (small but competitive niche!) had "antagonist wins, leads a long and happy life" endings out the wazoo.

Hey there OW:

I would argue that "mainstream works" are the ultimate in Fanfiction, the birth place of all the fan fic that will flow from them. In any case the same endings that work for Main stream exist for fanfiction. I have to at least reference known literary techniques :)
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Void wrote:I don't know if I agree about the 6 endings thing... Those are extremely broad generalised and categorised endings for what can become of the protagonists and the antagonists, but even so it doesn't sum up the ending for the whole story - because the story is not just defined by the general outcome for the 'goodies' and 'baddies. Hell, even the terms protagonists and antagonists can be unhelpful in trying to broadly classify characters like that, and often characters can't fall into those lines. There's a lot of stories with half victories or losses with the goodies or baddies, and where the goodies are baddies are often on a scale of grey in terms of whether they are antagonists or protagonists. Then there's stories that don't really have resolution, or go back to a status quo.

It's also maybe a tad harsh to call campy stories 'jokes,' I don't think they are intended as jokes, even if they are written to avoid being serious.

When you bring up that writers often want their reader to hate their antagonists, do you mean actively disliking the character or disliking the character as a person, or both? I mean, I loved the Joker in the dark knight, but I thought he was an objectively bad guy - and that happens a lot with villains. The villains I dislike are the ones who are just rubbish, clichéd or uninteresting characters. It's true that often antagonists are portrayed as evil people - but then they're the villains... they kind of need to earn their stripes to be qualified as villains. If they are the kind of person who makes the active choice to commit murder or rape for their own amusement, I think there's a limit to what you can do with them to make the reader relate with them or sympathise with them. They can be cool and charming, or funny and interesting; but I don't know if they could ever be anything like a 'good' person. I would argue that isn't the writer trying to make the reader feel anything, or trying to distance themselves from the character, I just think that is part of making a consistent character who makes those choices... so I suspect I'll be a pest when you do the proper write up in section 4!
Hey Void:

I have to say you are the most extreme, pick it apart commenter I have, which is fine and even good. As I am sure others will think the same things... I am not sure if it is just me, but it seems whenever I write something, you take the most diametrically opposed stance you can (wich is also fine :) )

Ok to brass tacks

As to your point of the characters being free to watch destinations, I addressed that in my reply to Sneaky :)


Yes the 6 endings ARE very broad category. Big picture beginning to "Drill down" to the actual action. I would argue that is the difference between an actual PLOT...and your average "bling"

Now you really seem to split hairs with the whole...half victories and status Quo. It seems to me a victory is a victory, half or not....and Status Quo could broadly be defined as, the good guy "losing" he failed to capture the BAD guy BAD guy but in dosing so defeats the bad guy (The Bad guy plan does not succeed)

And while yes there ARE a few examples of #6 out there, most of #6 involves the detestable bad guy doing some form of mutilation or murder...when was the last time you saw a "Bad guy" in main stream fiction, take the woman as his personal servant, wife, whatever..and sail off into the sunset rich and free?

NOT calling campy stories jokes...but they are NOT serious, wait...we have them act completely illogically or implausibly...because...*brain fries* *chuckle* Thats really drawing down void, I was not intending a label on specifically "campy stories" but stories in general....

When I say They want the reader to HATE the antagonist....I suppose I mean as a person, giving the antagonist absolutely no redeeming traits. Like trying to cuddle a cactus. I could even argue that even the JOKER (whom I DETEST by the way) has had love interests, people HE cared about in a twisted way. However I thought I mentioned earlier, The Joker is a Sociopath. They do not play by the same rules. but a Sociopath is an EXCEPTION to a rule..if every character you have is that extreme.... Sure in the context of THAT story you can say "wow magnificent villain" My purpose is not to say THAT type cannot be admired... all types have their place in a story, you may just want to consider having a character like that if it is over done.
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To be honest I think the explanation in the original post is a bit wordy, but I agree with the principle that you've got to have an ending in mind when you start. So many stories of mine have run out of energy before getting finished because I didn't plan them and more importantly didn't plan an end. I think it's a side effect of a lot of modern culture being based on leaving things open for a sequel or new series, people have forgotten that an ending is an incredibly important part of the story and to not have one undermines all that went before.

Hence I now always plan the hell out of the ending. I still don't always get there mind you, but at least I know where it is. :D
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Dogfish wrote:To be honest I think the explanation in the original post is a bit wordy, but I agree with the principle that you've got to have an ending in mind when you start. So many stories of mine have run out of energy before getting finished because I didn't plan them and more importantly didn't plan an end. I think it's a side effect of a lot of modern culture being based on leaving things open for a sequel or new series, people have forgotten that an ending is an incredibly important part of the story and to not have one undermines all that went before.

Hence I now always plan the hell out of the ending. I still don't always get there mind you, but at least I know where it is. :D
I think another point that, and END.... can signal a BEGINNING of a whole new story, in the same universe..it may be related or completely Unrelated... The End could have laid the groundwork for a scenne that starts a year, 10 years hell 100 years leater
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lordgriffin wrote: Hey Void:

I have to say you are the most extreme, pick it apart commenter I have, which is fine and even good. As I am sure others will think the same things... I am not sure if it is just me, but it seems whenever I write something, you take the most diametrically opposed stance you can (wich is also fine :) )
Hurm. I apologise LG, I think I've misjudged the purpose of these threads. I've agreed with much of what you've said, and I've disagreed with much else along the way so far - that's fair to say. I like and agree with all your broad points - I think I've said as much: that a story needs a plot, and it needs a general direction, and the writer needs to decide on a tone and whether they care about being plausible or not, and if you're targeting a certain audience. There's a subtext of other stuff that maybe I don't agree with, or I at least feel needs more qualifying - specially given this write up is currently a permanent fixture hanging above the story forum. There's some sweeping generalisations that make me uncomfortable, specially when you refer to stories and ideas that you personally do not like. Hey-ho, I agree with all the main points you raise and I wish it well, but I shall lay off commenting in future.



@Dogfish

Funny, I'm always happy with endings and beginnings, but I often struggle with middles! I have an A and a B, but sometimes making the story move from A to B can be like pulling teeth - and it is that process that has put the majority of my stories to the sword. That and my deleting them all in a fit of insecurity. You point about sequels and the like is interesting... So many stories have a larger arc that goes over a series of books or the like, so the issue with them is stories within stories - each story has an ending, but they are all links to the next story as a greater story travels to a greater ending. It all gets a bit meta!
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Void wrote: @Dogfish

Funny, I'm always happy with endings and beginnings, but I often struggle with middles! I have an A and a B, but sometimes making the story move from A to B can be like pulling teeth - and it is that process that has put the majority of my stories to the sword. That and my deleting them all in a fit of insecurity. You point about sequels and the like is interesting... So many stories have a larger arc that goes over a series of books or the like, so the issue with them is stories within stories - each story has an ending, but they are all links to the next story as a greater story travels to a greater ending. It all gets a bit meta!
See for me I've always thought that when you're telling a story you ought to be telling the audience the most exciting thing that happens in the lives of your characters, so I don't hold with sequels and prequels and longwinded trilogies. Gets to the point where if a character has saved the world more than once there's not really many satisfying ways to end their story.

I also know what you mean about getting lost in the middle of things, though for me that does tend to happen when I push the end further and further away by adding in new bits or stretching a story out. Nothing ever plays out as quickly as it looked like it would in the plan. :)

I'm thinking I might just start to write the starts to stories. Leave the middles and ends out entirely. Much easier that way.
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Void wrote:
lordgriffin wrote: Hey Void:

I have to say you are the most extreme, pick it apart commenter I have, which is fine and even good. As I am sure others will think the same things... I am not sure if it is just me, but it seems whenever I write something, you take the most diametrically opposed stance you can (wich is also fine :) )
Hurm. I apologise LG, I think I've misjudged the purpose of these threads. I've agreed with much of what you've said, and I've disagreed with much else along the way so far - that's fair to say. I like and agree with all your broad points - I think I've said as much: that a story needs a plot, and it needs a general direction, and the writer needs to decide on a tone and whether they care about being plausible or not, and if you're targeting a certain audience. There's a subtext of other stuff that maybe I don't agree with, or I at least feel needs more qualifying - specially given this write up is currently a permanent fixture hanging above the story forum. There's some sweeping generalisations that make me uncomfortable, specially when you refer to stories and ideas that you personally do not like. Hey-ho, I agree with all the main points you raise and I wish it well, but I shall lay off commenting in future.
Please PLEASE, don't you DARE apologize, and please do NOT lay off. That was not my intent to criticize but to COMPLEMENT you. I NEED someone to be critical, and I often tend to take "my view" of things. If I did not want criticize and point out my logic flaws I would not post in the open. I VALUE your input greatly, just do remember I do tend to speak more general with no intent to belittle anyone :)
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Dogfish wrote:
Void wrote:
See for me I've always thought that when you're telling a story you ought to be telling the audience the most exciting thing that happens in the lives of your characters, so I don't hold with sequels and prequels and longwinded trilogies. Gets to the point where if a character has saved the world more than once there's not really many satisfying ways to end their story.

I also know what you mean about getting lost in the middle of things, though for me that does tend to happen when I push the end further and further away by adding in new bits or stretching a story out. Nothing ever plays out as quickly as it looked like it would in the plan. :)

I'm thinking I might just start to write the starts to stories. Leave the middles and ends out entirely. Much easier that way.

You know DF, you bring up a great point... I have always maintained that to have a "gripping" story, the antagonist, HAS to win, because what makes a hero? A hero is someone who despite the possible threats....continues to try to do "what is right" We call police officer "heros" because they MAY get killed (worst case scenario) and the reality is, Cops DO get killed, however if we can out tomorrow with a "Star Trek" personal shield that made police complete invulnerable to ANY harm...We might appreciate what they do...but would we really consider them Heros? or at the same level?

So yes, when a "Hero" saves the world 6 times...i can see where there is not much way to go from there.
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lordgriffin wrote:
Dogfish wrote:
Void wrote:
See for me I've always thought that when you're telling a story you ought to be telling the audience the most exciting thing that happens in the lives of your characters, so I don't hold with sequels and prequels and longwinded trilogies. Gets to the point where if a character has saved the world more than once there's not really many satisfying ways to end their story.

I also know what you mean about getting lost in the middle of things, though for me that does tend to happen when I push the end further and further away by adding in new bits or stretching a story out. Nothing ever plays out as quickly as it looked like it would in the plan. :)

I'm thinking I might just start to write the starts to stories. Leave the middles and ends out entirely. Much easier that way.

You know DF, you bring up a great point... I have always maintained that to have a "gripping" story, the antagonist, HAS to win, because what makes a hero? A hero is someone who despite the possible threats....continues to try to do "what is right" We call police officer "heros" because they MAY get killed (worst case scenario) and the reality is, Cops DO get killed, however if we can out tomorrow with a "Star Trek" personal shield that made police complete invulnerable to ANY harm...We might appreciate what they do...but would we really consider them Heros? or at the same level?

So yes, when a "Hero" saves the world 6 times...i can see where there is not much way to go from there.
See I think for a character to be a hero, a proper hero, they have to 'die', if not literally then in some other way that indicates something has been lost that cannot be replaced, or changed irrevocably. It's an old fashioned view (and I mean really old fashioned, we're talking Greek plays and Shakespeare) but if you're not having to make the ultimate sacrifice, or any sacrifice at all, then are you really a hero? I mean take Superman, what does he ever lose? Almost nothing. Ditto for Batman, I mean even when Batman gets his back broken he just walks it off (compared to Batgirl who in the comics broke her back and that was her disabled until she was re-booted so to speak).

Defeating the antagonist without a cost cheapens a story, and again it's why I don't tend to like a series, because there's only so much a character can lose.

This is of course an anathema to how comic books work, because really the whole point is that you go back to where you started from at the end of the story so you can do it all over again. And I suppose fanfic is a part of that. :)

This rambling isn't getting my current story finished though. So I shall duck back to it for a bit. :P
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Well DF:

That's part of why I started this thread...to at least try to get a view out there that people need not "follow the formula" when you write fanfic, you can BREAK the mold, you not constrained by main stream rules and censorship.... You really CAN write..for ADULTS
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@LG
Hey, if there is a view you should be taking, it should certainly be your view. I think it's an interesting and useful discussion to see up on the stories forum, and I'm glad you've taken the initiative to do it. It's looking even better for having been streamlined and compiled into one place. I can be a pedantic bugger when I get my analytic hat on, and I really do apologise if I was coming off as being deliberately difficult. I assure you, I'm not!

@DG

I agree that the story loses something if it isn't the most interesting thing to happen to the main character, but then I guess the definition of most interesting or most exciting will vary depending on your audience. Sometimes as well the story is more about a situation or event than it is particularly about a certain character - though that's probably never true in the superhero genre!

I dunno about the loss and sacrifice thing. I think for me it is more that the character is willing to *risk* loss and willing to make sacrifices that makes them heroic. Loss by itself is more a thing for victims than heroes. So I guess I don't mind on-going series or sequels and the like, so long as there is a sense of heroic risk. To be fair these stories are indeed at their best when the hero does get hurt or take losses along the way, and even better when they carry those scars into their series or whatever. I do very much agree with LG's thing that it stops looking heroic if the character is just impervious to any loss - and I almost start sympathising more with the supposed antagonists in such tales. Much as I'm saying all of this, there is no getting away from the best tales being the small, self-contained ones that don't drag on and on - like the IPs being milked dry by cynical producers who see a cash-cow.

Look forward to your story! Are you going to post it up here?
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Void wrote:@LG

I really do apologies if I was coming off as being deliberately difficult. I assure you, I'm not!

@DG

I agree that the story loses something if it isn't the most interesting thing to happen to the main character, but then I guess the definition of most interesting or most exciting will vary depending on your audience. Sometimes as well the story is more about a situation or event than it is particularly about a certain character - though that's probably never true in the superhero genre!

I dunno about the loss and sacrifice thing. I think for me it is more that the character is willing to *risk* loss and willing to make sacrifices that makes them heroic.

and I almost start sympathising more with the supposed antagonists in such tales. Much as I'm saying all of this, there is no getting away from the best tales being the small, self-contained ones that don't drag on and on - like the IPs being milked dry by cynical producers who see a cash-cow.

Look forward to your story! Are you going to post it up here?

Glad to hear from you Void:

I think we have beaten the apology thing to death now :) You are sorry, I see nothing to be sorry about, You emphasize there is no ill intent, I say I know and I LIKE you being critical.... so I think we can move on don't you? :D

I love it when you say people's definition of "exciting" is different, I have a section devoted to that...In a nut shell, there are times, I believe, that as a writer you deliberately WANT to leave out detail (usually WITHOUT leaving out intent) For example:

Lex Luther gazes at the helpless Supergirl..mesmerized by his mind control beam... He smiles and says "now to father a child by you" as he takes her hand and leads her into his room...locking the door as Hawk Girl and WW begin to hear soft moaning and the sounds of lovemaking...

After several hours, Lex emerges with his shirt in his hand chuckling, beyond him the naked body of SG can be seen sweaty and unconscious on the bed beyond as Lex winks and says "That aught to about do it.."


Now as to "The risk of Loss" I get what you mean...there is excitment in the RISK..but without there EVER being ACTUAL loss...IS there a risk?or are you telegraphing to your reader "don't worry you KNOW they ALWAYS come out ok?"

Lastly...my story? if you mean my WW story, It's in the Dunegon section now
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I think Void was referring to Dogfish's story LG.
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Oh Yea...Duh ;)
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tallyho wrote:So whilst its always good to be told you are wonderful that's not necessarily why I post ( I already know I'm wonderful! ;) ) and I don't think I'm alone.
I would say that we write for ourselves but post for others AND ourselves, if that makes sense.
I would say a better distinction to the one you used would be that we post to a public site to be READ and (in my case anyway) to learn from the experience -preferably by story comments from readers but also sometimes you can learn from presentation and layout when you see it up for readers as opposed to on your own pc.
I completely agree here. The very first stories I posted here were written specifically for a particular member. When she left, I retooled and rethought. I write stories that I would want to read. I post them because it occurs to me that other people might enjoy them too. Feedback is rare, but it tells me whether people are enjoying the stories or not. Even negative feedback is helpful to tell me if I'm getting across my ideas successfully or not. But I'm not necessarily going to change my style just because somebody says they want to see more violence or more sex or whatever. I'll take that into account, but ultimately I write for myself.
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Centurion wrote:I completely agree here. The very first stories I posted here were written specifically for a particular member. When she left, I retooled and rethought. I write stories that I would want to read. I post them because it occurs to me that other people might enjoy them too. Feedback is rare, but it tells me whether people are enjoying the stories or not. Even negative feedback is helpful to tell me if I'm getting across my ideas successfully or not. But I'm not necessarily going to change my style just because somebody says they want to see more violence or more sex or whatever. I'll take that into account, but ultimately I write for myself.
Yes I actually deal with that in another section (I post in small doses) I agree that feedback is regrettably infrequent, but I could not agree more to write for yourself... and I think were on the same page because *I* would say, there are ways to write what YOU like..in a way that OTHERS may like...you said you "Retooled" the story.

My only disagreement, and it's not "universal" is about changing your style... I agree don't changer yer style for anyone, however, if the plot you chose calls for "more violence" or "more sex" you need to accommodate.

I once got to speak with Sci Fi great Andre Norton, she related to me that she had a much beloved character, but based on her plot, the character HAD to die, nothing else would make sense and anything else would seem contrived. She related how she delayed writing for weeks trying to find a way to save the character. In the end she ended up writing the character death, Ms Norton admitted to actually crying as she wrote the scene, but as she said, it was the only way to be faithful to my readers and the story, and it made for a very VERY powerful scene, even if she did not personally like it.
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Marching to the Beat of your Own Drum
Section 1 part 5

Ok Now, you have decided to Have a plot that is more than sex, you have decided to write for yourself or your fans, and have determined to be Campy or serious. Now I would like to ask you to Dare to be different.

Have you ever noticed, when Game of Thrones came out, suddenly there were like 7 other shows just like it? Reality TV? Now the airwaves are lousy with it….Zombie flicks? Are you getting the picture?

Dare to be different, whatever it is, if you like watersports, you like pregnancy, whatever don’t be afraid of what others will say, however I WILL say, fine an APPROPRIATE Venue. If you want to write a comedy, get on a board that does Heroine Comedy… Super Heroine in Peril, doesn’t exclude comedy and comedy can be a PART of ANY story but I don’t think it is exclusively your audience looks for in that forum.

Did you know that Leonardo da Vinci was considered a vulgar artist because he drew Adam naked and did other works of art that he was vilified for? I went to the Louvre in France to see statue after statue by Michelangelo that had its genitals pounded off (he was another “sick artist” in his time) because he saw beauty in the human form, and Pablo Picasso was considered obscene as well. I will write more in depth about writing AROUND “Acceptable User Policies (Section 6) But my point is, if it fits in your plot, is called for in your plot, makes sense…USE it.

Consider this question, WHY do people watch “horror” movies? I mean let’s face it, being mutilated or watching your family get slaughtered is NOT what any sane person would choose as a form of entertainment. The answer that presents itself is, people LIKE to FEEL. Were emotion junkies, and as a writer, YOU are TOYING with those emotions, arguably a very sensitive thing (which is why I HATE teasing and copouts (Section 1 part 6 or 7) But if we can stand to watch babies tortured on TV, can we do any less with passion and lust? Dare to write it.
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