Various Fetishes Explained

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Now, this is probably going to be a very difficult thread-- I don't want debates-- just clarification, if possible. My favorite colors are purple and white. I don't know why, they just are. And I know that trying to explain a fetish is the same way, however, if possible, there are some fetishes that I know are very popular that I not only don't share, but don't see the appeal. This is not about judging anyone, it's simply about trying to understand. Why? Because I like to make films that appeal to as many people as possible. Because I now have offerings (and work with new producers who will have their own offerings) anywhere from Extremely PG to R/X-rated, I have an open playing field of content I can film.

I do not like to film something for the sake of doing it. I put a lot of work into every film I make and nothing should ever feel forced into a film-- it should feel like it belongs there due to the situation. So here are some fetishes (many are very popular) that I simply don't understand. I want to get a better feel for them-- at least the best way to approach them-- so I can deliver the best high quality films with the most satisfying content possible. So, here are a few:

1. Bear Hugs. I simply don't get it. I do understand that the Heroine is being asphyxiated and she is struggling to get away from the attacker. But for it to be so highly requested, I don't personally understand. Many wrestling moves fall under this category for me...

2. Spanking. Unless I'm doing it, I don't see the appeal. But also, this is one of the hardest fetishes to include in a film. Almost no scenario does it make sense to just start spanking someone.

3. Lifting / Carrying. Okay, this one can be easily interjected into nearly any scene assuming the actors/actresses are physically capable of doing so. Unfortunately, the biggest request is for one female to do it to another. Very slim chance of that happening-- especially in high heels. But more importantly, I don't get the appeal of it. What about it is "Sexy"?

4. Debooting. The actual act of taking off someone's shoes doesn't do anything for me. Is it the "reveal" of the foot underneath? A foot in pantyhose or not in pantyhose underneath, to me, is just going to be stinky, sweaty, and gross... so I know I'm missing something here.

5. Uncaping. I get that it's humiliating to the Heroine. And that could be all it is-- but to the point where it's a fetish? Unmasking is in the same boat.

6. Low Blows. I get the O-face part... but that's about it. And the fact that it's the most tender, devastating area to be hit... but it makes me cringe... and I think they're more funny than sexy... but perhaps because I don't understand the sexuality behind it?

7. AOH. I get this request a lot. It's easy to do. But I don't know WHY I'm doing it so often. Here and there, yes. The lengthened body, sure. But the scenarios that can be done with this type of bondage/restraint are extremely limiting. Most bondage scenarios in general, I don't understand.

8. Breast Destruction. Okay, ouch. Touch them, squeeze them-- I get it. Lovely. But to beat them up? That seems a bit counterproductive to the process of seeing a woman's body as a symbol of beauty...

9. Chokeouts. In a fight and as part of such, I got it. But they seem so-- not attractive to me?

10. Belly Punching. This is a common fight sequence/move. But I don't understand how it can turn someone on.

Okay, so those are my top 10-- they are meant to just put out there so perhaps a little clarity can be added. It may be a case of "I just like it" and that's all there is to it. But a lot of those are requested repeatedly and I always have to question if we're doing it as good as possible for delivery. Each of these will have a separate opinion on "how" it should be done too. That's never 100% black and white, but the "why" behind doing it helps when mixing it into the scenes we shoot.

By the way, there are a lot of fetishes/likes that I do share and definitely see the appeal for-- and when I enjoy them myself, it's easy to communicate to an actress on how to do it right. It's all for making better films. :)
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Unmasking appeals to me because it's the symbolic death of the superheroine identity, leaving the exposed civilian identity to live in fear for the rest of her life.

The mainstream hardly ever does unmasking. On the rare occasions when it does, there's almost always some sort of cop-out to restore the heroine's secret before the end of the story. That's why it's so transgressive to have the heroine actually exposed, once and for all. When the villain reaches for the mask and starts to pull at it, we know our heroine has reached the point of no return.
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Heroine Addict wrote:Unmasking appeals to me because it's the symbolic death of the superheroine identity, leaving the exposed civilian identity to live in fear for the rest of her life.

The mainstream hardly ever does unmasking. On the rare occasions when it does, there's almost always some sort of cop-out to restore the heroine's secret before the end of the story. That's why it's so transgressive to have the heroine actually exposed, once and for all. When the villain reaches for the mask and starts to pull at it, we know our heroine has reached the point of no return.
But technically, couldn't you only do this once? After that, the damage has been done.
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HeroineLegends wrote:
Heroine Addict wrote:Unmasking appeals to me because it's the symbolic death of the superheroine identity, leaving the exposed civilian identity to live in fear for the rest of her life.

The mainstream hardly ever does unmasking. On the rare occasions when it does, there's almost always some sort of cop-out to restore the heroine's secret before the end of the story. That's why it's so transgressive to have the heroine actually exposed, once and for all. When the villain reaches for the mask and starts to pull at it, we know our heroine has reached the point of no return.
But technically, couldn't you only do this once? After that, the damage has been done.

Yes, but by that logic Supergirl will only only fall for the Kryptonite in the lead box once :evil:
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purple and white? :chair:
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HeroineLegends wrote:
Heroine Addict wrote:Unmasking appeals to me because it's the symbolic death of the superheroine identity, leaving the exposed civilian identity to live in fear for the rest of her life.

The mainstream hardly ever does unmasking. On the rare occasions when it does, there's almost always some sort of cop-out to restore the heroine's secret before the end of the story. That's why it's so transgressive to have the heroine actually exposed, once and for all. When the villain reaches for the mask and starts to pull at it, we know our heroine has reached the point of no return.
But technically, couldn't you only do this once? After that, the damage has been done.
That's the point, really. It's a career-ending peril. Which is why mainstream series always have some sort of cop-out to undo the negative effects of an unmasking. Without invoking cop-outs, an irreversible unmasking is something you can only do if:
A) You're not going to use the masked heroine again. This is her final chapter.
or
B) Your series reuses characters without referencing previous chapters or previous perils. (It's an alternate reality and anything goes.)
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Heroine Addict wrote:
HeroineLegends wrote:
Heroine Addict wrote:Unmasking appeals to me because it's the symbolic death of the superheroine identity, leaving the exposed civilian identity to live in fear for the rest of her life.

The mainstream hardly ever does unmasking. On the rare occasions when it does, there's almost always some sort of cop-out to restore the heroine's secret before the end of the story. That's why it's so transgressive to have the heroine actually exposed, once and for all. When the villain reaches for the mask and starts to pull at it, we know our heroine has reached the point of no return.
But technically, couldn't you only do this once? After that, the damage has been done.
That's the point, really. It's a career-ending peril. Which is why mainstream series always have some sort of cop-out to undo the negative effects of an unmasking. Without invoking cop-outs, an irreversible unmasking is something you can only do if:
A) You're not going to use the masked heroine again. This is her final chapter.
or
B) Your series reuses characters without referencing previous chapters or previous perils. (It's an alternate reality and anything goes.)
I don't think it's a cop-out as much as it's "game over" for the superhero. Unless it's Iron Man who just doesn't give a f*** and tells everyone who he is. It's pretty difficult to continue a story about a hero who lives and alternate life when everyone knows what that other life is...
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ksire_99 wrote:
HeroineLegends wrote:
Heroine Addict wrote:Unmasking appeals to me because it's the symbolic death of the superheroine identity, leaving the exposed civilian identity to live in fear for the rest of her life.

The mainstream hardly ever does unmasking. On the rare occasions when it does, there's almost always some sort of cop-out to restore the heroine's secret before the end of the story. That's why it's so transgressive to have the heroine actually exposed, once and for all. When the villain reaches for the mask and starts to pull at it, we know our heroine has reached the point of no return.
But technically, couldn't you only do this once? After that, the damage has been done.

Yes, but by that logic Supergirl will only only fall for the Kryptonite in the lead box once :evil:

Not true. One has to do with something that can't be undone. The other is just a trick containing a weakness that she can recover from. Logic upheld. ;)
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Wow, a lot in those I have no explanation for aswell. The unmasking was well explained by Heroine Addict though. I'm mostly in it for knockouts and other sorts of peril, but not really certain actions.

Bear hugs: Don't really care for it, but if the heroine passes out, you have a great shot of an unconscious heroine in the arms of the villain.

Lifting/Carrying: Again, mostly for the knockouts. If knocked out, an arm carry is a great shot. So is an over the shoulder carry.

Chokeouts: And again, only interesting with a knockout in mind. You can get a nice eye-roll during the process while in close contact with the villain.

I think these three are mostly requested from a KO type fetish. The KO with an unconscious shot is the goal, but to get there can be done in different ways. The different ways emphasize different aspects of the knockout as well. The carrying emphasizes the limp body, while chokeouts emphasize facial expression. Bear hugs can do both, but I have a hard time believing them. I've never seen a real life bear hug and I doubt anyone (especially a heroine) can be knocked out by it.

Lastly, I think spankings have to do with the degrading of a character. It's not the biggest humiliation you can get but it asserts dominance, I guess?

The others I don't know. I'm not a particular fan of belly punching, low blows, debooting. Breast destruction is just a downright no for me.
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HeroineLegends wrote:
I don't think it's a cop-out as much as it's "game over" for the superhero. Unless it's Iron Man who just doesn't give a f*** and tells everyone who he is. It's pretty difficult to continue a story about a hero who lives and alternate life when everyone knows what that other life is...
And that's the appeal. It's the villain's final victory. But instead of killing or crippling the heroine, the villain leaves her compromised and vulnerable.

The veil is lifted. Her secret is out. She's screwed.

It's not really something that can be done in a continuing story, but it works as final chapter or one-shot.
Last edited by Heroine Addict 9 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Sometimes people haven't really analyzed their fetish to the point that they can explain the psychology in a way that it makes sense to an outsider. In other words, you're asking to connect dots that may not have been connected before. In fact, some people might not want to analyze their fetish too deeply because awareness could ruin it for them. Let's not forget that "fetish" is the sexualization of something that isn't ordinarily sexual.

And while it could be beneficial to the nuance for a producer / director / performer to understand WHY something puts mayo on the hand sandwich, to some extent they only need to know WHAT the turn-on ingredients are, and (I think just as important) what ingredients are turn-offs.

And know that explanations, while they may establish a logic you could follow, could also lead us into some creepy or squicky places.

So with that said, I think a good starting place is to consider that a lot of this fetish is built on power, not sex. In fact, it may be presuming too much to assume that everyone who likes these videos finds them sexually arousing. Hell, it seems like a lot of folks explicitly DO NOT WANT explicit sexualization -- they just want the superheroine to be physically dominated.

Look at your list -- everything is about taking away the heroine's power and control.
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HeroineLegends wrote:
ksire_99 wrote:
HeroineLegends wrote:
Heroine Addict wrote:Unmasking appeals to me because it's the symbolic death of the superheroine identity, leaving the exposed civilian identity to live in fear for the rest of her life.

The mainstream hardly ever does unmasking. On the rare occasions when it does, there's almost always some sort of cop-out to restore the heroine's secret before the end of the story. That's why it's so transgressive to have the heroine actually exposed, once and for all. When the villain reaches for the mask and starts to pull at it, we know our heroine has reached the point of no return.
But technically, couldn't you only do this once? After that, the damage has been done.

Yes, but by that logic Supergirl will only only fall for the Kryptonite in the lead box once :evil:

Not true. One has to do with something that can't be undone. The other is just a trick containing a weakness that she can recover from. Logic upheld. ;)

ha ha, yes of course being a blonde she will fall for the same trick over and over again! I bow to your beacon of logic as you seek explanation of why people have certain fetishes! Good luck on your quest. :ras:
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AoH...
For me, the turn-on is all about power. So there's nothing special to me about AoH, I just like bondage in general.
Bondage gives the villain power over the heroine. Anything the villain does beyond that like torture, forced O, taunting, stripping, humiliation, etc. is just a way to emphasize the villains power (and the heroines lack of it).
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Blx wrote:Wow, a lot in those I have no explanation for aswell. The unmasking was well explained by Heroine Addict though. I'm mostly in it for knockouts and other sorts of peril, but not really certain actions.

Bear hugs: Don't really care for it, but if the heroine passes out, you have a great shot of an unconscious heroine in the arms of the villain.

Lifting/Carrying: Again, mostly for the knockouts. If knocked out, an arm carry is a great shot. So is an over the shoulder carry.

Chokeouts: And again, only interesting with a knockout in mind. You can get a nice eye-roll during the process while in close contact with the villain.

I think these three are mostly requested from a KO type fetish. The KO with an unconscious shot is the goal, but to get there can be done in different ways. The different ways emphasize different aspects of the knockout as well. The carrying emphasizes the limp body, while chokeouts emphasize facial expression. Bear hugs can do both, but I have a hard time believing them. I've never seen a real life bear hug and I doubt anyone (especially a heroine) can be knocked out by it.

Lastly, I think spankings have to do with the degrading of a character. It's not the biggest humiliation you can get but it asserts dominance, I guess?

The others I don't know. I'm not a particular fan of belly punching, low blows, debooting. Breast destruction is just a downright no for me.
I'm with you on the breast destruction - but it's highly requested... I guess my next question, going to a KO guy-- how is a KO shot different than a shot of a girl sleeping?
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Imagineer wrote:Let's not forget that "fetish" is the sexualization of something that isn't ordinarily sexual.
This goes back to why I know Superheroine Peril CAN be done in a mainstream format. Just wanted to point that out.

But yes, you are right. Analyzing WHY might be impossible for this. Ingredients are important... and I do know many times it's just a matter of control or power... Sometimes I feel like there just needs to be more to it than that-- only because very specific things are requested hundreds or thousands of times.
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HeroineLegends wrote: 1. Bear Hugs. I simply don't get it. I do understand that the Heroine is being asphyxiated and she is struggling to get away from the attacker. But for it to be so highly requested, I don't personally understand. Many wrestling moves fall under this category for me...
Interesting thread. I'm not a bear hug fan at all but there are some wrestling moves I like to see. I like to see moves such as piledriver (front or tombstone piledriver) when they are used as finisher, some variants of backbreakers (I don't really like backbreaker with cradle holding, I prefer backbreaker like the one Amoeba performed on Azarra, with a hand between the thighs) and some moves like the matchbookpin.
If you need it, I think I can explain what I like with each one of those wrestling moves/holds.
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Domi666 wrote:
HeroineLegends wrote: 1. Bear Hugs. I simply don't get it. I do understand that the Heroine is being asphyxiated and she is struggling to get away from the attacker. But for it to be so highly requested, I don't personally understand. Many wrestling moves fall under this category for me...
Interesting thread. I'm not a bear hug fan at all but there are some wrestling moves I like to see. I like to see moves such as piledriver (front or tombstone piledriver) when they are used as finisher, some variants of backbreakers (I don't really like backbreaker with cradle holding, I prefer backbreaker like the one Amoeba performed on Azarra, with a hand between the thighs) and some moves like the matchbookpin.
If you need it, I think I can explain what I like with each one of those wrestling moves/holds.
But, see those types of moves make sense to me. Whether I personally like them or not, I can see how they are cool. Moves like The Surfboard is just pointless to me. It doesn't really hurt and it's one position for what seems to me to be a ridiculous amount of time... what am I missing?
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HeroineLegends wrote:Now, this is probably going to be a very difficult thread-- I don't want debates-- just clarification, if possible. My favorite colors are purple and white. I don't know why, they just are. And I know that trying to explain a fetish is the same way, however, if possible, there are some fetishes that I know are very popular that I not only don't share, but don't see the appeal. This is not about judging anyone, it's simply about trying to understand. Why? Because I like to make films that appeal to as many people as possible. Because I now have offerings (and work with new producers who will have their own offerings) anywhere from Extremely PG to R/X-rated, I have an open playing field of content I can film.

I do not like to film something for the sake of doing it. I put a lot of work into every film I make and nothing should ever feel forced into a film-- it should feel like it belongs there due to the situation. So here are some fetishes (many are very popular) that I simply don't understand. I want to get a better feel for them-- at least the best way to approach them-- so I can deliver the best high quality films with the most satisfying content possible. So, here are a few:

1. Bear Hugs. I simply don't get it. I do understand that the Heroine is being asphyxiated and she is struggling to get away from the attacker. But for it to be so highly requested, I don't personally understand. Many wrestling moves fall under this category for me...

2. Spanking. Unless I'm doing it, I don't see the appeal. But also, this is one of the hardest fetishes to include in a film. Almost no scenario does it make sense to just start spanking someone.

3. Lifting / Carrying. Okay, this one can be easily interjected into nearly any scene assuming the actors/actresses are physically capable of doing so. Unfortunately, the biggest request is for one female to do it to another. Very slim chance of that happening-- especially in high heels. But more importantly, I don't get the appeal of it. What about it is "Sexy"?

4. Debooting. The actual act of taking off someone's shoes doesn't do anything for me. Is it the "reveal" of the foot underneath? A foot in pantyhose or not in pantyhose underneath, to me, is just going to be stinky, sweaty, and gross... so I know I'm missing something here.

5. Uncaping. I get that it's humiliating to the Heroine. And that could be all it is-- but to the point where it's a fetish? Unmasking is in the same boat.

6. Low Blows. I get the O-face part... but that's about it. And the fact that it's the most tender, devastating area to be hit... but it makes me cringe... and I think they're more funny than sexy... but perhaps because I don't understand the sexuality behind it?

7. AOH. I get this request a lot. It's easy to do. But I don't know WHY I'm doing it so often. Here and there, yes. The lengthened body, sure. But the scenarios that can be done with this type of bondage/restraint are extremely limiting. Most bondage scenarios in general, I don't understand.

8. Breast Destruction. Okay, ouch. Touch them, squeeze them-- I get it. Lovely. But to beat them up? That seems a bit counterproductive to the process of seeing a woman's body as a symbol of beauty...

9. Chokeouts. In a fight and as part of such, I got it. But they seem so-- not attractive to me?

10. Belly Punching. This is a common fight sequence/move. But I don't understand how it can turn someone on.

Okay, so those are my top 10-- they are meant to just put out there so perhaps a little clarity can be added. It may be a case of "I just like it" and that's all there is to it. But a lot of those are requested repeatedly and I always have to question if we're doing it as good as possible for delivery. Each of these will have a separate opinion on "how" it should be done too. That's never 100% black and white, but the "why" behind doing it helps when mixing it into the scenes we shoot.

By the way, there are a lot of fetishes/likes that I do share and definitely see the appeal for-- and when I enjoy them myself, it's easy to communicate to an actress on how to do it right. It's all for making better films. :)
I'll try to clarify and throw in some examples where I can. Some of these elements I'm as confounded as you by them.

1. Bear Hugs. I'm not a huge fan of these unless they are done well, which they usually aren't. When done right the maneuver can really show off the superheroine's "assets" either from the front or rear depending on the direction of the bear hug. It also can be used to show off her facial expression whether it's determination, desperation or fear as they struggle to break free from the hold. A good example of this can be seen in the Wonder Woman episode "Mind Stealers from Outer Space." At the end of part 1 Diana is grabbed and fights desperately to break the hold as the camera catches the fear and desperation on her face, later in part 2, Wonder Woman gets grabbed again and we get another couple nice shots of her from behind and from the front as she fights off the hold. It's not just that the heroine is hugged, but her struggle against the powerful foe that catches my interest.

2. Spanking. Unless it's in conjunction with something else I don't get it either. It can be effective for humiliating a heroine after she has been defeated and too weak to defend herself or is restrained and therefore can't defended herself.

3. Lifting / Carrying. OTS carries I get as it's a good opportunity to see the heroine's ass, other than that meh.

4. Debooting. I don't get it either.

5. Unmasking. this is a perilous element that I like on occasion. It's the lead up to the unmasking and the psychological aspect as the unmasking is about to occur. In an episode of Black Scorpion, "Photo Finish", they have an unmasking scene that captures this pretty well.

6. Low Blows. not my thing either

7. AOH. "Most bondage scenarios in general, I don't understand." Peril, plain and simple. The heroine is in a helpless predicament that they need to find an escape from. Whether it's Batgirl caught in "cat's whiskers" Wonder Woman caught in the above mentioned bear hug, or O-Girl strapped to the "organsmatron 5000" it's a predicament that the heroine must escape from or perish. Again it goes back to seeing her struggle as I mentioned in the beginning.

8. Breast Destruction. I'm not big on destruction, blood or bruising so meh...

9. Chokeouts. I prefer other knockouts, the cloth, gas, freezing... Many variations, let your imagination run wild.

10. Belly Punching. Again, I'm not big on destruction and don't get this either.
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It's not a particularly promising endeavor, to try to explain any fetish, and here's why.

Take any particular fetish on this rather random list. Say, spanking. Then find 4 or 5 fans who really like to see spanking in superheroine in peril fetish videos. If you ask each of those fans to really get down to what it is they like about spanking, you will find that, even though on the surface they seem to have the same fetishistic interest (i.e., an interest in spanking), in truth they don't have the same interest AT ALL.

One guy is into spanking because he really likes the way it conveys a sense of humiliation. He's not interested in the spanking being particularly hard, he just likes the way it embarrasses the heroine.

Another guy is into it because when he was a kid he was spanked by his babysitter, or saw someone spanked, and ever since then spanking has had this exciting sexual thrill for him (Jean Jacques Rousseau writes about this in his autobiography!). He likes it especially if the spanking is done with an instrument, a paddle or a hair brush, etc.

Another guy is into pain--he loves spanking because of the image of pain it evokes--an image of pain, though, that is easier on his superego, since it comes without any real threat of damage to the victim, i.e., it's a kind of "safe" pain. He loves hard spanking.

Another guy just really likes the booty, just really likes seeing that booty jiggle.

These different fans, though they all nominally have an interest in "spanking," clearly do NOT have the same fetish. They have different fetishes altogether.

That's why, if you ask for an explanation about a fetish, you will never get any one clear answer, because there are as many different nuances to the fetish as there are fetishists. And fetishes lie almost exclusively in the nuances.

But one thing we should all agree on: If you are paying a not insignificant sum of money for a video because you have a fetishistic interest in seeing a sexy superheroine, say, being punched in the stomach, or tied up, or spanked, or bear hugged, or whipped, or whatever, it's always a sexual thing. Which is why these videos, whether there is nudity or not, whether they are "PG" or not, are all properly described as porn. Fetish porn. That's what this is.

No one ever leaves an actual PG superhero movie saying, "It was good, but I wish Iron Man had been punched in the stomach more." Not unless they had a sexual interest in seeing Iron Man being punched in the stomach. That's the difference between real mainstream movies and fetish porn.
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Alex Bettinger wrote:It's not a particularly promising endeavor, to try to explain any fetish, and here's why.

Take any particular fetish on this rather random list. Say, spanking. Then find 4 or 5 fans who really like to see spanking in superheroine in peril fetish videos. If you ask each of those fans to really get down to what it is they like about spanking, you will find that, even though on the surface they seem to have the same fetishistic interest (i.e., an interest in spanking), in truth they don't have the same interest AT ALL.

One guy is into spanking because he really likes the way it conveys a sense of humiliation. He's not interested in the spanking being particularly hard, he just likes the way it embarrasses the heroine.

Another guy is into it because when he was a kid he was spanked by his babysitter, or saw someone spanked, and ever since then spanking has had this exciting sexual thrill for him (Jean Jacques Rousseau writes about this in his autobiography!). He likes it especially if the spanking is done with an instrument, a paddle or a hair brush, etc.

Another guy is into pain--he loves spanking because of the image of pain it evokes--an image of pain, though, that is easier on his superego, since it comes without any real threat of damage to the victim, i.e., it's a kind of "safe" pain. He loves hard spanking.

Another guy just really likes the booty, just really likes seeing that booty jiggle.

These different fans, though they all nominally have an interest in "spanking," clearly do NOT have the same fetish. They have different fetishes altogether.

That's why, if you ask for an explanation about a fetish, you will never get any one clear answer, because there are as many different nuances to the fetish as there are fetishists. And fetishes lie almost exclusively in the nuances.

But one thing we should all agree on: If you are paying a not insignificant sum of money for a video because you have a fetishistic interest in seeing a sexy superheroine, say, being punched in the stomach, or tied up, or spanked, or bear hugged, or whipped, or whatever, it's always a sexual thing. Which is why these videos, whether there is nudity or not, whether they are "PG" or not, are all properly described as porn. Fetish porn. That's what this is.

No one ever leaves an actual PG superhero movie saying, "It was good, but I wish Iron Man had been punched in the stomach more." Not unless they had a sexual interest in seeing Iron Man being punched in the stomach. That's the difference between real mainstream movies and fetish porn.
That's all true, but I do remember some people saying they wish Kimberly (the Pink Ranger) faced more peril etc... that doesn't make Power Rangers a fetish series. I think that's all in the eye and mind of the viewer. I think any film could be labeled anything really. Our PG offerings are not created to be fetish films. They are superheroine films infused with sexual moments and peril. That is what we put together. We introduce them to a fetish audience and they become fetish films. We infuse things we know viewers like while ensuring we keep the content within a specific realm and a clearly defined purpose. My adult company, Rapture, is completely different. While i maintain keeping a story and purpose going, those films are definitely made to be fetish-oriented films.

None of that has to do with your answer though - you are absolutely right though - reasoning behind each viewer is probably extremely different. Which is a good reason why there is no perfect peril fetish video and why so many exist. But to hear some of these examples come through and try to see some common answers pop up does help better with an understanding which helps me (or any producer including yourself) capture these fetishes / images / scenarios on film so they can be completely enjoyed and satisfying to the viewer.

I guess I said that the best way possible. lol
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IF the people who made Power Rangers started going to fetish message boards and asked fetishists what fetishes they wanted to see in the Power Rangers, what kinds of peril and humiliation they wanted to see happen to the Pink Ranger--things like stomach punching, face slapping, whipping, bondage, etc.--and then put those elements in the show precisely to cater to those fetishistic interests, and in fact arranged the entire show so that those precise fetish elements could be emphasized--then YES OF COURSE the Power Rangers would in that case be a fetish series.

But the people who made the Power Rangers absolutely did NOT do any such thing. That's why what they make is not fetish porn. Sure, they might have accidentally put content in their show that appealed to certain fetishistic interests. Just like someone who really wants to see Iron Man beaten up, because he has a sexual interest in that, might get lucky when in the latest Iron Man movie he gets beaten up. But that's a coincidence. And since just about anything can be fetishized, such coincidences are irrelevant to whether a movie is porn or not.

But when you specifically SOLICIT what fetishists want to see happen to a sexy superheroine--peril, humiliation, pain, beatings, etc.--and then specifically put those things in your movie to cater to them, and then sell the movie to those fetishists (and really to virtually no one else), then OF COURSE you are making fetish porn.

Just own it, man. You make fetish porn. OWN IT.
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I agree with Alex and there is nothing wrong with that label either.
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Alex Bettinger wrote:IF the people who made Power Rangers started going to fetish message boards and asked fetishists what fetishes they wanted to see in the Power Rangers, what kinds of peril and humiliation they wanted to see happen to the Pink Ranger--things like stomach punching, face slapping, whipping, bondage, etc.--and then put those elements in the show precisely to cater to those fetishistic interests, and in fact arranged the entire show so that those precise fetish elements could be emphasized--then YES OF COURSE the Power Rangers would in that case be a fetish series.

But the people who made the Power Rangers absolutely did NOT do any such thing. That's why what they make is not fetish porn. Sure, they might have accidentally put content in their show that appealed to certain fetishistic interests. Just like someone who really wants to see Iron Man beaten up, because he has a sexual interest in that, might get lucky when in the latest Iron Man movie he gets beaten up. But that's a coincidence. And since just about anything can be fetishized, such coincidences are irrelevant to whether a movie is porn or not.

But when you specifically SOLICIT what fetishists want to see happen to a sexy superheroine--peril, humiliation, pain, beatings, etc.--and then specifically put those things in your movie to cater to them, and then sell the movie to those fetishists (and really to virtually no one else), then OF COURSE you are making fetish porn.

Just own it, man. You make fetish porn. OWN IT.
We are about to make a mainstream series that includes much of what I have learned about what makes certain situations "sexy" from doing these films. I'm curious-- do you think that makes the mainstream series (which won't be sold on these forums, but will be advertised for free) fetish porn? To me, absolutely not. Even though I'll be taking input and feedback/suggestions from here and applying it. Why? Because a lot of the feedback here is honest-- even if coming from fetishists. ;)
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Well as with anything it's a matter of degree, and there will be certain movies where it's unclear if it's fetish porn or not. But that doesn't mean that the movies that clearly ARE fetish porn are any less fetish porn.

If a movie deliberately puts one or two sexy, fetishistic scenes into a film to help give it sex appeal--like a bondage scene, or a KO scene where a character is limp and carried around and the camera really sort of lavishes on the character's limp body, etc.--but then the overwhelming majority of the film has nothing to do with such scenes, then no, that probably wouldn't be fetish porn.

But if a movie is clearly devoted to emphasizing PERIL as a fetishistic element--and deliberately incorporates fetish elements that fetishists clamor for, and makes those elements an obviously HUGE part of the movie--then it's much more likely to be fetish porn.

And of course, if you solicit requests from fetishists, and then put those requests in the movie, and the movie is obviously mostly about those fetish elements, and then you sell the movie to those fetishists and to no one else--then OF COURSE it's fetish porn.
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Spartucus was catering to Fetish porn as did many ofd the HBO and Showtime series and they were very sucessful. You guys shoulkd not be arguing there is nothing not mainstream about feish porn. Batgirls costume in the 60's Batman series was a huge element of fetish porn.
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I think most of the examples you cite, Dragon1, are "fetishy." The fetish elements are clearly there. But they're not the raison d'etre of the works.

Most of the videos that we talk about on message boards like this one, are first and foremost about offering specific fetish content to fetish fans who have fetishistic interests in them.

Tons of people watch and buy Batman without having any fetish interest in the show. Most people who buy Batman, in fact, don't have any special fetishistic interest in it. By contrast, I dare say that virtually NO ONE who buys the videos talked about here--whether they come from me or Heroine Legends or anyone else--buy them UNLESS they DO have a fetishistic interest in them. Because they're fetish porn. Not really of interest to anyone unless they have a fetishistic interest in them.
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Alex I would agree with you about Batman but not about Spartacus after the first season. I am not sure that is correct about everyone who buss the fighting vids are for "fetish" reasons "some" who buy the work do it for the artistic value of the work and could care less about if it contained any fetish elements. But that is a very small minority. I would agree most that are here are looking for fetish elements but I do think you can make a mainstream series that cateres to both and I think thta is what he is trying to do. A Heroine series for main stream viewers Like Spatcus. There was a Youtube group trying top do this "non Fetish" that got stopped by DC but there series looked AMAZING.
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Not arguing here. Simple conversation... At least I think it is? Lol

I actually have an acct wth some comic-con type sites an many of my audience is coming from there too - yes, I cater to fans here, but I also cater to fans who simply love sexy superheroines.

My adult site caters to this group alone. That is fetish porn. My PG side is half and half.

But like I said, I hope this isn't taken as a debate or argument -- I'm just here to have a conversation. :)
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Yes, I agree--I think it's certainly possible to make a mainstream series that caters to both. I haven't seen Spartacus so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.

But of course, having fetishistic scenes in a show is one thing. Tarantino puts gratuitous shots of women's feet in his movies--see Deathproof--because he has a well-known foot fetish. But those elements are ultimately incidental. They are not at all the primary focus of the work.

The videos we talk about on this site--even the ones that have no nudity, that are just about fighting, etc.--are made with specific fetish markets in mind, and are sold to those fetish markets, and are not sold to anyone else. The fetish elements ARE the focus of the work.

I suppose it's possible that there is a fan or two that buys a heroine fight video just for the "artistic value" of it. Though I'm skeptical, lol. I mean, I LOVE the show It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia. It's my favorite show of all time. Love it love it love it. But even I'm not going to spend $30 for every episode of the show. No way. Not unless, that is, there was some really cool sexual fetish of mine that it was going to fulfill. When I hear someone say, "Oh I buy heroine in peril videos not because it's sexual...I just like the drama," my hunch is that it's because the poor soul is a bit repressed and doesn't want to admit that what he's really doing is wanking off to it.
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I disagree with the "half and half" idea. Every video of yours that I've seen advertised on this site has clearly been made, marketed, and sold with a very specific fetish audience in mind. The fetish market has very obviously been your primary market. I suppose it's possible that people are spending $30 and $40 for a 25 minute video even though they have NO fetishistic interest in seeing superheroines defeated or humiliated or beaten or hurt or killed--all fetishes you cater to and emphasize in your videos--but I am indeed rather skeptical that such viewers really exist in any but marginal numbers.
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Alex I am in agreement with your mind set and I too would not spend 30 on something that was not up my alley but I know of a few who do and I also don't "Get it." You should check out Spartacus you won't be sorry.
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If you don't "get" a fetish there is no explaining it.
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Mickie James LOVES that show. :)
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And so would You.
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Alex Bettinger wrote:I disagree with the "half and half" idea. Every video of yours that I've seen advertised on this site has clearly been made, marketed, and sold with a very specific fetish audience in mind. The fetish market has very obviously been your primary market. I suppose it's possible that people are spending $30 and $40 for a 25 minute video even though they have NO fetishistic interest in seeing superheroines defeated or humiliated or beaten or hurt or killed--all fetishes you cater to and emphasize in your videos--but I am indeed rather skeptical that such viewers really exist in any but marginal numbers.
My marketing is based on the sex appeal of a film. Many of those are fetishes. I even list "elements" out. "Crawling", for instance, is one of those elements. As far as I know, crawling isn't a fetish... I could be wrong - there are a million fetishes I know nothing about.

Our customer base comes from many sources. About half being from non-fetish sources. But our PG films aren't the same as other producers. They aren't created with the same exact audience in mind. Whether you are skeptical about viewers paying $30/video for non-sexual reasons or not doesn't change the fact that it is that way.

I know people who will spend hundreds of dollars on Star Wars and Star Trek - and even Superman memorabilia. I'm sure they aren't wanking to that. Or maybe they are. I don't know.

Someone's value to something they like can't ever be guessed. We have been to Wonder-Con twice now. (We keep missing Comic-Con for various reasons) Our fan base nearly tripled from that alone. Our videos simply tap into more markets than fetish - this just happens to be the best way for me to communicate to fans.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. We could go on forever. I think it's all just a matter of perception anyway. :)
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Crawling is a Defenite Fetish, But there are alot of diffrent perceptions out there.
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Dragon1 wrote:Crawling is a Defenite Fetish, But there are alot of diffrent perceptions out there.
Yep, never would have guessed that. I recently found out that throat lifts were a fetish. And farts.

It's a rabbit hole I will never fully jump into lol I'd get lost :-/
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Surely you agree that where customers come from is irrelevant. I mean, if I were to sell one of my dvds at Comiccon, it would be absurd for me to conclude that that buyer must have had a non-fetishistic or non-sexual interest in my product, just because the sale took place at a "mainstream" convention. I'm sure you've gotten customers from non-fetish sources--that does not mean that they do not have a fetishistic interest in your product, which after all is clearly all about fetishistic, sexualized, sublimated representations of sexily clad women being beaten up, hurt, humiliated, and sometimes killed. I can understand why you would want to believe that people are spending that much money for your product just because they love the storylines or the filmmaking. What a nice thought after all! But you and I both know that ain't happening--at least, it's happening very rarely.

Yes, hardcore fans sometimes spend big money on Star Wars and Star Trek memorabilia. Your product is not Star Wars and it's not Star Trek. Nothing to be ashamed of. It's fetish porn. :)
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HeroineLegends wrote:
My marketing is based on the sex appeal of a film. Many of those are fetishes. I even list "elements" out. "Crawling", for instance, is one of those elements. As far as I know, crawling isn't a fetish... I could be wrong - there are a million fetishes I know nothing about.

Our customer base comes from many sources. About half being from non-fetish sources. But our PG films aren't the same as other producers. They aren't created with the same exact audience in mind. Whether you are skeptical about viewers paying $30/video for non-sexual reasons or not doesn't change the fact that it is that way.

I know people who will spend hundreds of dollars on Star Wars and Star Trek - and even Superman memorabilia. I'm sure they aren't wanking to that. Or maybe they are. I don't know.

Someone's value to something they like can't ever be guessed. We have been to Wonder-Con twice now. (We keep missing Comic-Con for various reasons) Our fan base nearly tripled from that alone. Our videos simply tap into more markets than fetish - this just happens to be the best way for me to communicate to fans.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. We could go on forever. I think it's all just a matter of perception anyway. :)
Probably the fact you get better quality girls if they don't do nude, grope or sex probably draws in some viewers. I will buy a video SOLELY on the look of a girl for example. And clearly this is not Star Trek or Star Wars material. Think more Vampire Diaries or True Blood.

The idea these viewers WANT sexy heroines means its sexual. They may just be more PG than hard core. For example your stuff probably can be advertised on more public forums as "acceptable" since there's no nudity or sexual acts. So you have access to more potential viewers. I am limited where I can advertise.
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Alex Bettinger wrote:Surely you agree that where customers come from is irrelevant. I mean, if I were to sell one of my dvds at Comiccon, it would be absurd for me to conclude that that buyer must have had a non-fetishistic or non-sexual interest in my product, just because the sale took place at a "mainstream" convention. I'm sure you've gotten customers from non-fetish sources--that does not mean that they do not have a fetishistic interest in your product, which after all is clearly all about fetishistic, sexualized, sublimated representations of sexily clad women being beaten up, hurt, humiliated, and sometimes killed. I can understand why you would want to believe that people are spending that much money for your product just because they love the storylines or the filmmaking. What a nice thought after all! But you and I both know that ain't happening--at least, it's happening very rarely.

Yes, hardcore fans sometimes spend big money on Star Wars and Star Trek memorabilia. Your product is not Star Wars and it's not Star Trek. Nothing to be ashamed of. It's fetish porn. :)
Lol I'm not ashamed of anything. I'm drinking a Corona and commenting that Batgirl is sexy in this game... And checking up on this board in the mean time.

Do I think they are buying it for stories and filmmaking? Hell no. They buy it for a fetish or simply because they like seeing hot cosplay chicks beat the crap out of each other.

Doesn't need to be classified. I make what I feel viewers want to see and what I and my actors and actresses have fun making. :)
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Mr. X wrote:
HeroineLegends wrote:
My marketing is based on the sex appeal of a film. Many of those are fetishes. I even list "elements" out. "Crawling", for instance, is one of those elements. As far as I know, crawling isn't a fetish... I could be wrong - there are a million fetishes I know nothing about.

Our customer base comes from many sources. About half being from non-fetish sources. But our PG films aren't the same as other producers. They aren't created with the same exact audience in mind. Whether you are skeptical about viewers paying $30/video for non-sexual reasons or not doesn't change the fact that it is that way.

I know people who will spend hundreds of dollars on Star Wars and Star Trek - and even Superman memorabilia. I'm sure they aren't wanking to that. Or maybe they are. I don't know.

Someone's value to something they like can't ever be guessed. We have been to Wonder-Con twice now. (We keep missing Comic-Con for various reasons) Our fan base nearly tripled from that alone. Our videos simply tap into more markets than fetish - this just happens to be the best way for me to communicate to fans.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. We could go on forever. I think it's all just a matter of perception anyway. :)
Probably the fact you get better quality girls if they don't do nude, grope or sex probably draws in some viewers. I will buy a video SOLELY on the look of a girl for example. And clearly this is not Star Trek or Star Wars material. Think more Vampire Diaries or True Blood.

The idea these viewers WANT sexy heroines means its sexual. They may just be more PG than hard core. For example your stuff probably can be advertised on more public forums as "acceptable" since there's no nudity or sexual acts. So you have access to more potential viewers. I am limited where I can advertise.
Bingo! 100%! That is all I'm saying.

I can't offer Defeated Heroines at comiccon. It's clearly fetish. Nothing deeper in conversation or meaning than that :)
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Here's a quick rule of thumb, that simplifies things. If you find yourself making "custom" videos, then chances are you're probably a pornographer. If you're making "custom" videos where the "custom" part is what type of peril or suffering or humiliation or defeat will happen to a sexily clad heroine, then you're probably making fetish porn.

But you're right, it doesn't need to be classified. It is what it is. :)
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HeroineLegends wrote:
Bingo! 100%! That is all I'm saying.

I can't offer Defeated Heroines at comiccon. It's clearly fetish. Nothing deeper in conversation or meaning than that :)
Probably what's happening is you're filling the niche of mainstream hot superheroines with no sexual content which is what mainstream used to do with shows like wonder Woman etc.

Mainstream today will not allow any "sexiness" in mainstream products (anything straight men like) and so its now a black and white situation. either stale/sterilized mainstream material the Westburough Baptist church would be proud of or porn/deep fetish. Nothing in between. No hotness without nudity or fetishism in mainstream right now unless it appeals to a female audience like vampire stuff ie hunk guys with their shirts off.

There is no cheese cake material for straight men UNLESS you want to suffer through female soft porn. You apparently are filling that niche.
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I'm with you that the whole feminist movement is getting old. I plan to continue making films that feature sexy women for the sake of being sexy at the scrutiny of feminists. Ugh. A whole topic I don't care to get into just because it sucks. So much backfire for the natural, bio focal attraction we have to them. Blah.
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HeroineLegends wrote:
Blx wrote:Wow, a lot in those I have no explanation for aswell. The unmasking was well explained by Heroine Addict though. I'm mostly in it for knockouts and other sorts of peril, but not really certain actions.

Bear hugs: Don't really care for it, but if the heroine passes out, you have a great shot of an unconscious heroine in the arms of the villain.

Lifting/Carrying: Again, mostly for the knockouts. If knocked out, an arm carry is a great shot. So is an over the shoulder carry.

Chokeouts: And again, only interesting with a knockout in mind. You can get a nice eye-roll during the process while in close contact with the villain.

I think these three are mostly requested from a KO type fetish. The KO with an unconscious shot is the goal, but to get there can be done in different ways. The different ways emphasize different aspects of the knockout as well. The carrying emphasizes the limp body, while chokeouts emphasize facial expression. Bear hugs can do both, but I have a hard time believing them. I've never seen a real life bear hug and I doubt anyone (especially a heroine) can be knocked out by it.

Lastly, I think spankings have to do with the degrading of a character. It's not the biggest humiliation you can get but it asserts dominance, I guess?

The others I don't know. I'm not a particular fan of belly punching, low blows, debooting. Breast destruction is just a downright no for me.
I'm with you on the breast destruction - but it's highly requested... I guess my next question, going to a KO guy-- how is a KO shot different than a shot of a girl sleeping?
I guess the build up. Also, the scenery for someone sleeping is usually quit, peaceful and relaxed, while a knockout is usually from a hostile environment.

In the end the expression is the same, but what preceeds it, is very important in that knockout type fetish. That determines whether its a ko, with a heroine defeated/overpowered or if she's just taking a nap without any danger whatsoever.
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HeroineLegends wrote: Our customer base comes from many sources. About half being from non-fetish sources.
If you go back far enough, almost 100% of your audience would have come to the fetish side of this genre from non-fetish sources. The videos discussed on this board exist in relation to mainstream comics, cartoons, TV series and movies. They are an extension and a subversion of the genre for those of us who wanted the Bat-traps to go a little further.

Let's face it, up until the late 80s, superhero/ine stories were primarily intended for children. Advertising is always the most reliable indicator of the intended audience and those ads for Sea Monkeys certainly weren't targeted at middle-aged men.
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Wow, that's more reading material than an exam revision!
Re the unmasking fetish and its end-game scenario: the point about the mask is two-fold.
1. Yes it protects her identity from the villains, her family and friends from revenge, kidnapping et cetera, but much more than that it is...
2. How she creates an identity for herself, one that is powerful, no longer perceived as a "mere" woman, but a strong intimidating crime-fighter.
The fetish of peeling off the mask comes from the desire, or need of the male [and often female] villain to re-impose their superiority over the supposedly "inferior" woman - stripping off the one thing that hides her weakness.
It is interesting that recently a number of script writers have drawn attention to this so-called female weakness, by reminding the captured heroine that "underneath that mask you're just a frightened little girl!"
It doesn't have to end our storyline either. The heroine can get free, be rescued or released, or dumped somewhere to be discovered, and then have to deal with the consequences. Perhaps she may even elect to continue her career un-masked, but it is up to the creativity of the story tellers.
With regard to the violence directed towards the woman's sex organs, this comes from male insecurities about sex - and before we come over all Freudian, I mean that men, and particularly teenage boys have anxieties about how to go about having sex [what goes where and how, if you will]. As they get older, even after they've long since figured these things out, they still carry these insecurities with them, and their release is through imagining directing pain towards what they did not understand. Unfortunately this also parallels impulses towards domestic violence and it has become an unsettling component of the superheroine and heroine fighting genres of late.
However the idea that in a violent attack an opponent would not kick, punch or in some other way direct pain to what are after all sensitive areas of the anatomy, is plainly silly. In such circumstances they are often fighting to incapacitate the heroine, or are fighting to the death. Because we need to stylise the fighting to make good entertainment, the gritty, almost uncoordinated manner most real street or bar fights degenerate into are not suitable, so they tend not to show the damage [which can be hard to apply as make-up without stopping the shoot, or keeping natural when everyone is hot and constantly moving]. If some of your viewers are aroused by this sort of thing, we should perhaps feel sorry for them but if they are prepared to pay for their fetish, I see no compelling reason not to include these scenes.
The "fetish" for showing blood and guts is possibly an exaggeration. Most of its proponents are looking for more realism, rather than Japanese manga fountains of blood [Giga/Zen-style].
As for lifting, carrying, or my own favourite dragging away the unconscious victim, we are back to the realm of showing her as a weakened victim, a "mere" woman. Personally I dislike the accompanying bottom smack in OTS, which looks stupid and often seems like an afterthought accompanied by a quick glance behind or at the camera. Better to keep the carry/drag as a dramatic device - in the old Batman TV series we would hear the narrator "What will become of the Dynamic Dare Doll?"
The fetishes of choking, by strangulation, bear-hugs or bagging can fit in with most of what I've written above, but also feature in genuine torture scenarios - water-boarding being only one example. Is this a fetish for realism, or another version of violence to break the heroine's physical superiority or previously established dominance?
Finally we come to the bondage fetishes. Whilst the obvious explanation is usually given as domination and control, where the superheroine, in her revealing or clingy costume is concerned, there is also the aesthetic presentation of the female form. How her costume fits her curves, the revealing camel-toe, the hard, erect nipples, the bum-crack, shapely legs, tightened breasts et cetera are what is important here.
What is clear, is that much of the fetishisation of the superheroine in peril, is male-oriented. However, female readers and viewers of this material would also like to share in the frisson of sexual thrills, that come from imagining themselves inside the costumes, or behind the disguising mask. How many of them really appreciate the incredible violence that is directed towards some of these characters [indeed just how many men really enjoy that sort of thing] is still an arguable point.
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EvilDaria wrote:Wow, that's more reading material than an exam revision!
Re the unmasking fetish and its end-game scenario: the point about the mask is two-fold.
1. Yes it protects her identity from the villains, her family and friends from revenge, kidnapping et cetera, but much more than that it is...
2. How she creates an identity for herself, one that is powerful, no longer perceived as a "mere" woman, but a strong intimidating crime-fighter.
The fetish of peeling off the mask comes from the desire, or need of the male [and often female] villain to re-impose their superiority over the supposedly "inferior" woman - stripping off the one thing that hides her weakness.
It is interesting that recently a number of script writers have drawn attention to this so-called female weakness, by reminding the captured heroine that "underneath that mask you're just a frightened little girl!"
I agree. That's a more eloquent summation of what I meant by the "symbolic death of the superheroine identity".
EvilDaria wrote:It doesn't have to end our storyline either. The heroine can get free, be rescued or released, or dumped somewhere to be discovered, and then have to deal with the consequences. Perhaps she may even elect to continue her career un-masked, but it is up to the creativity of the story tellers.
That sounds good as the aftermath actually deals with the consequences of the unmasking. If there's a resolution involving the unmaskers suffering amnesia, the death of the unmaskers (before they can tell anyone) or even a f***ing wizard altering history to delete the unmasking, we would be in cop-out territory.
"A brass unicorn has been catapulted across a London street and impaled an eminent surgeon. Words fail me, gentlemen."
Bert

An interesting conversation between (mostly) two leading producers of heroine peril material who could hardly be more different. Logan, who finds the genre weird and disturbing (but he's not judging!), and Alex, who desperately wants everyone to acknowledge that HIP is porn, probably to justify his preference for the hardcore content he produces. ((Full disclaimer, I occasionally buy content from both guys, and some of it has been really good, some less so. And I likely will continue to do so.))

Alex. Is HIP porn? Yes, without a doubt, it is. Does that mean that everyone who is drawn to it wants to see heroines being raped? No, it does not. Does the fact that some don't want to see hardcore content make them self-deluded? No, it doesn't. As demonstrated by this thread, and others, there are a host of reasons for people being into this fetish, or maybe this category of fetishes. I can only speak for myself in this regard, but seeing the hardcore content generally pulls me out of the illusion. HIP works for me because it's fantasy. There are no superheroines in real life. Hardcore content usually blurs the line for me between fantasy and reality, and as soon as I catch a whiff of reality it instantly moves into misogynistic terrain and has the opposite effect of a turn on for me. I say this not as a criticism, but more as a request. The template of your movies lends itself to splitting them in two. I would buy more of your work if I could get the first half of a vid for, say, 2/3rds of the full price. I can't justify paying full price when I'm only interested in half the content.

Logan. We get it. You're normal, but you really, really want to understand us. Well here's my take on HIP. In general, men are stronger and more inclined to violence than women. There is an accepted idea that men must protect women from violence because they can't protect themselves. The idea that a beautiful woman with unnatural abilities would willingly don a costume and actively fight crime is exciting because it turns that "women are the weaker sex" concept upside down. It's also exciting because, despite her special talents, the heroine may well find herself on the losing end of a battle, which causes that whole male desire to protect to kick in, except the heroine put herself in the position voluntarily. Also, if a heroine is defeated she potentially faces more severe consequences that just losing a fight. In addition to all that, many of the sounds and facial expressions of a woman in battle, particularly if she is losing, are very similar to the sounds and expressions during sex. Now, and this is important but hard to understand for people who don't share this fetish, for many of us this stuff is only hot because it's pure fantasy. I am personally repulsed by real violence directed at women. I'm not saying that to try to make my fetish seem less bothersome to people who don't share it, I'm being dead serious; actual violence against women is as appalling to me as it (hopefully) is to you. One of the things about this community that makes me queasy is that I suspect that sentiment isn't true for all of us.

As for the specific list of fetishes you asked about, you'll get a different answer from every person that responds. I find the picky micro-fetishes some are fixed on to be tiresome on the forums because it's just the same comments over and over, but people like what people like. It's always going to be tough for you to grasp this stuff. It's a weird fit having someone with no interest in the material being such a prolific producer, and it often shows in your releases, which can play as a series of check boxes to individual requests. Since most of your output seems to be customs, that sort of makes sense, but I usually look elsewhere for content. Not always though!
Alex Bettinger
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Bert: I think you have badly misunderstood my position. I'll clarify.
Bert wrote:An interesting conversation between (mostly) two leading producers of heroine peril material who could hardly be more different. Logan, who finds the genre weird and disturbing (but he's not judging!), and Alex, who desperately wants everyone to acknowledge that HIP is porn, probably to justify his preference for the hardcore content he produces. ((Full disclaimer, I occasionally buy content from both guys, and some of it has been really good, some less so. And I likely will continue to do so.))
I find this to be a rather uncharitable interpretation of my view. First, I rarely shoot hardcore content. I actually dislike shooting it, I much prefer softcore. Obviously fake, melodramatic fantasy stuff.

Second, I feel obliged to point out that I feel absolutely NO need to justify to anyone what I shoot--I'm a First Amendment guy all the way. Freedom of speech and all that jazz.

I do believe, however, that it's not good for the fetish industry if producers who are clearly shooting fetish go out of their way to insist that they are NOT shooting fetish. And let the record state that I'm NOT accusing Logan of doing that here--in fact after our exchange I'm satisfied that he has acknowledged the obviously fetish-video character of his works.

But the reason I do like to insist on this point is because if a fetish producer insists that he is NOT making fetish, then that only contributes the stigma of the fetish market more generally. If you're making fetish porn, and you're making money off the fetish fans, and hiring actresses to play fetish roles, then I think you should own that. Actresses, for example, should KNOW that they're making fetish videos (and again, I am NOT accusing Logan of lying to his actresses about this; I'm sure he is very up front with them about what they're making). It's just a matter of authenticity--if it walks and quacks like a duck, then we should all be honest about how it's a duck.

What I am NOT trying to do here is "justify," desperately or otherwise, anything that I myself shoot. I love this business, I love making porn movies, and I feel absolutely no need to justify what I do to anyone. I LOVE making porn. What I suggest, Bert, is that you try to focus on the actual ideas and arguments being made, instead of just attributing *motives* to the speaker. You'll probably understand things better if you do.

Bert wrote:Alex. Is HIP porn? Yes, without a doubt, it is. Does that mean that everyone who is drawn to it wants to see heroines being raped? No, it does not.
I never once said, nor even implied, that everyone who is drawn to this fetish wants to see heroines being raped. I haven't said anything even close to that. No idea what you're talking about. Again, I urge you to pay closer attention to what is actually being said.
Bert wrote:Does the fact that some don't want to see hardcore content make them self-deluded? No, it doesn't.
Again, I never said that people who don't want to see hardcore content are self-deluded. No idea what you're talking about. What I said was: If you are spending $30 or $40 for a 25 minute video featuring sexily clad women being beaten up, or humiliated, or defeated, in very specific ways that you specifically look for (whether it be bear hugs or stomach punches or face slaps or KOs or chloroform or whatever), then this is clearly a sexual interest you have. And to insist that it's NOT sexual--that you just really love the art or drama of seeing a woman slowly passing out from chloroform or whatever--THEN you are probably kidding yourself.

The point of a fetish, Bert, is that you sexualize something that is NOT just ordinary sex. Like a bear hug. Or a sleeper hold. Or a spanking. It's only self-delusion if you try to insist that your fascination with those things has nothing to do with sex. Again, lets call a duck a duck.
Bert wrote: As demonstrated by this thread, and others, there are a host of reasons for people being into this fetish, or maybe this category of fetishes.
Exactly.

Bert wrote:I can only speak for myself in this regard, but seeing the hardcore content generally pulls me out of the illusion. HIP works for me because it's fantasy. There are no superheroines in real life. Hardcore content usually blurs the line for me between fantasy and reality, and as soon as I catch a whiff of reality it instantly moves into misogynistic terrain and has the opposite effect of a turn on for me.
Sounds good to me. I have no problem with any of this. My own movies are usually highly fantastic, over-to-top fake and outrageous and sometimes silly and always very sublimated. Because, like you, I'm not really into "realism" at all. I like the fake stuff. But of course, this has nothing to do with the topics previously discussed.

From what you've written, Bert, I think you and I probably agree on basically everything. I just think you have not read very carefully what I've said.
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